PDA

View Full Version : why good and evil do not exist



WhiteRaven
03-31-2007, 04:33 AM
hello class, today we will learn about why good and evil, as well as morality, are idiotic concepts, that make less sense than "flibbidy flobbidy floop" kidding aside, first, as with anything, to learn why it makes so little sense, we must obtain the definition. to obtain the definition, I will first go to dictionary.com, the results are astonishing:

"morally wrong or bad; immoral; wicked:"

okay, now what do Moral, immoral, and wicked mean? let's see. we shall begin with wicked:

"1. evil or morally bad in principle or practice; sinful; iniquitous: wicked people; wicked habits.
2. mischievous or playfully malicious: These wicked kittens upset everything.
3. distressingly severe, as a storm, wound, or cold: a wicked winter.
4. unjustifiable; dreadful; beastly: wicked prices; a wicked exam.
5. having a bad disposition; ill-natured; mean: a wicked horse.
6. spiteful; malevolent; vicious: a wicked tongue.
7. extremely troublesome or dangerous: wicked roads.
8. unpleasant; foul: a wicked odor.

we have successfully been returned to where we began, okay, so let's try immoral the first definition seems to be a breakthrough...

"1. violating moral principles; not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics."

so there we have it, evil is "not conforming to the patterns of conduct usually accepted or established as consistent with principles of personal and social ethics."

in other words, if you've ever tried on a dress without being a girl, or not mowed your lawn when everyone said your grass was too tall, congratulations, you are evil. anyone who violates a taboo, whether it is a law or not, is evil.

here is another definition

"2. not adhering to ethical or moral principles; "base and unpatriotic motives"; "a base, degrading way of life"; "cheating is dishonorable"; "they considered colonialism immoral"; "unethical practices in handling public funds" "

"a base, degrading way of life"

... not mowing your lawn is degrading? gee if only I had known that sooner, I sure wish I knew such ridiculous inconsequential acts as choosing not to mow one's lawn were degrading sooner.

at this point I'm moving onto some more philosophical definitions, first, however I would like to put a few things from an article I once read here:

"It has often been said that "good" is anything that helps others or yourself and "evil" is anything that harms others or yourself. This rather shallow viewpoint does not take into account that every act harms something, and likewise helps something. Nothing can eat without killing, nothing can be built without breaking something else, and no motion is possible without displacing something from its natural place."

"Some say that "good" is anything done out of love, and "evil" is anything done out of hate, yet "love" and "hate" are so similar as to be nearly identical in many respects. Both love and hate are obsessive fixations on a single target, be it a person, pastime or abstract concept.."

"What is the opposite of God-worship? It certainly isn't Devil-worship, as the worship of an evil god of a particular pantheon is still done in recognizance of that pantheon as it is arranged by those who worship the God. At best, it is simply a reversal of the same, with little more than cosmetic changes. Worship the winner, or worship the loser, and one is still dependent upon the outcome of someone else's game."

"What is the opposite of Good? We should define "Good" first. Most common uses of the word define "good" as being more beneficial than detrimental, although we should not tether ourselves to the vernacular usage of this word, any more than we would with any other. Is "Good" what is pleasant? It cannot be, as there are many unpleasant things that must be done, and are good for you. Is "Good" what is helpful? It cannot be, as a great many "Bad Things" are done by people who are doing it mainly to benefit themselves. Is "Good" what is more beneficial for Life? It cannot be, because the Earth is practically dead today compared to the Earth of 75 million years ago.

Could it be possible that what we call "Good" is nothing more than what pleases us? Nothing more than what makes us feel good about ourselves? This is the only logical conclusion remaining to us, that what we define as "Good" is nothing more than a pleasant feeling we give ourselves as a gift for fulfilling our personal preferences.

Is this "Good"? An arbitrary set of accumulated conditions which we please ourselves by fulfilling? If this is so, or if it's not, it's of little consequence for practical purposes. Suffice it to say that "Good" is good. In that case, what is "Evil?"

True Evil is always pleasant to us, as any perceived Evil has failed to dig itself deeply enough into us. Any evil which could be recognized as such, fails to successfully bypass our normal moral prejudices. True Evil is always innocuous, inconspicuous and perhaps even banal. Every day, millions and millions of people commit Evil acts, all the while feeling completely comfortable with their decision, as long as they don't bother to analyze their motives. Were they to do that, they'd realize that they'd betrayed their own morals willingly and deliberately, no matter how they rationalize their actions.

By the same token established before, "Evil" (as "the opposite of Good") would not be defined as that which displeases us by our own moral standards. "Evil" would be the act of taking the position of deliberately making our personal morals irrelevant with regard to our ambitions and desires. "Evil", by this viewpoint, would be the ultimate freedom, asserting the power of Mankind to choose his own destiny."

according to wikipedia: "In religion and ethics, evil refers to the morally objectionable aspects of the behaviour and reasoning of human beings — those which are deliberately void of conscience, and show a wanton penchant for destruction."

a wanton penchant for destruction? there is nothing wrong with a bit of destruction, one must remember that destruction allows a potential for new creation, this definition, however, poses a larger problem, if one is constantly manipulating others, through deception, persuasion, what have you, most would see this as evil, yet if the intent was to help others, then it would not be evil by this definition, also, what of a soldier who wages war to defend others?

" the opposite of goodness, which itself refers to aspects which are life-affirming, peaceful, and constructive."

Conflict is necessity. through conflict we learn and grow, and through struggle, we learn value, we do not know the value of something unless we earn it.

was Hitler evil? his desire was to allow humanity to reach perfection, he saw those he killed as a disease to be wiped out, he certainly could have used them as soldiers, rather than lampshades, but the fact remains, his desire was to see humanity perfected, completed, he believed what he was doing was right.

also, anyone who thinks good comes from god and evil from the devil, google "euthyphro dilemma"

hitekredneck
03-31-2007, 05:42 AM
ummm...so you are saying that you admire hitler? :confused:
just curious
i do understand your point...what i don't understand is your reasoning for attacking people of faith...you and theicidal(wherever the hell he is) have a habit of doing that...and yes, this IS exactly what you're doing with this long, very erudite commentary...regardless of whether you believe or not, faith, simply put, is illogical...what's why it's called faith

WhiteRaven
03-31-2007, 06:20 AM
"so you are saying that you admire hitler?"

in a way, he was a genius at persuasion, almost to an unnatural level, he came close to world domination, for lack of a better term.

on the other hand, as I said, the people(I say people because I doubt every person ever in one of those concentration camps was a jew) he tortured and killed could have been forced to fight in the front lines of his army instead. He might have succeeded, had he not allowed his hatred for the jews to take such a high spot on his priority list.

"what i don't understand is your reasoning for attacking people of faith...you and theicidal(wherever the hell he is) have a habit of doing that...and yes, this IS exactly what you're doing with this long, very erudite commentary..."

I cannot speak for theicidal, but as I have said, my reason for attacking Xianity is because it is abhorrent to me. I hate Xianity, but not necessarily Xians, I merely wish them to see that they and their teachings are wrong, I feel neither love nor hate for most of them, simply because I do not know most of them. Some of my closest friends do consider themselves Xians, but I identify with them, what they believe is not true Xianity, but a belief that all religions have some truths and lies to them centered around Jesus' teachings, I have followed that belief before, sometimes called omniism, I currently follow my own self-styled belief system.

hitekredneck
03-31-2007, 06:47 AM
"so you are saying that you admire hitler?"

in a way, he was a genius at persuasion, almost to an unnatural level, he came close to world domination, for lack of a better term.

on the other hand, as I said, the people(I say people because I doubt every person ever in one of those concentration camps was a jew) he tortured and killed could have been forced to fight in the front lines of his army instead. He might have succeeded, had he not allowed his hatred for the jews to take such a high spot on his priority list.

"what i don't understand is your reasoning for attacking people of faith...you and theicidal(wherever the hell he is) have a habit of doing that...and yes, this IS exactly what you're doing with this long, very erudite commentary..."

I cannot speak for theicidal, but as I have said, my reason for attacking Xianity is because it is abhorrent to me. I hate Xianity, but not necessarily Xians, I merely wish them to see that they and their teachings are wrong, I feel neither love nor hate for most of them, simply because I do not know most of them. Some of my closest friends do consider themselves Xians, but I identify with them, what they believe is not true Xianity, but a belief that all religions have some truths and lies to them centered around Jesus' teachings, I have followed that belief before, sometimes called omniism, I currently follow my own self-styled belief system.

ok...i think i better understand you now...you are very similar to hitler in your beliefs when you substitute "xians" for "jews"...or do you feel the same for jews as well?...note: i said similar in beliefs, i doubt you will try world domination..
i do disagree that hitler was ever close to world domination...there were plenty of people willing and ready to fight for their freedoms, we, the allies, just assisted them...

you cannot hate christianity and christians seperately...that is illogical as christians are what makes christianity...regardless of your feelings about the faith, i defy you to tell me, and prove, that the faith of modern christianity
does no good in today's world...as i've stated before, i personally know of people that quit extremely destructive personal habits, ie; drugs, alcohol, abuse, etc, due to assistance from christian groups...you may also note that christian groups make up a large part of charitable orgs around the world...

now another question for you...do you feel this way about all religions, or just the christians? i still don't understand the hatred...were you an abused alter boy as a child?

WhiteRaven
03-31-2007, 07:47 AM
ok...i think i better understand you now...you are very similar to hitler in your beliefs when you substitute "xians" for "jews"...or do you feel the same for jews as well?...note: i said similar in beliefs, i doubt you will try world domination..
i do disagree that hitler was ever close to world domination...there were plenty of people willing and ready to fight for their freedoms, we, the allies, just assisted them...

I do not wish to see all Xians and jews and muslims dead, merely the religions themselves, though that is more likely because it is a far greater victory if they renounce their religion, I would rather have them see through my eyes, than to close theirs forever.

Hitler came far closer than most people, it could at least be said that he united a rather large part of the world. Alexander the Great conquered more, unless I am greatly mistaken, but who else has since then? Napoleon perhaps, I am not aware of the specifics of his conquest.


you cannot hate christianity and christians seperately...that is illogical as christians are what makes christianity...regardless of your feelings about the faith, i defy you to tell me, and prove, that the faith of modern christianity
does no good in today's world...as i've stated before, i personally know of people that quit extremely destructive personal habits, ie; drugs, alcohol, abuse, etc, due to assistance from christian groups...you may also note that christian groups make up a large part of charitable orgs around the world...

I assume you mean xianity after the 1900s. Just a hunch, based on Xians' near genocidal reaction to "witches" who were often simply people who realized the curative effects of pennicilin, a biproduct of a type of mold, before modern medicine did.


now another question for you...do you feel this way about all religions, or just the christians? i still don't understand the hatred...were you an abused alter boy as a child?

Xianity is a... special case, there are religions that I agree with on some things, disagree with on others, Taoism, Buddhism, although I do not really see these as religions, they don't have gods, per se, so they are belief systems, and the real version of Wicca, garnerian Wicca, of course, a bunch of hippies decided to steal the name, there are other religions, that, although they have a small amount of truth in them, I do not feel positively benefit those that follow them, but None has ever broken me like Xianity, I was Xian for most of my life, and that part of my past is now in ruins, we all wish to clear away such ruins, when one is broken away from a religion, from a belief, it makes them wish that belief to be ended.

I suppose... if you are really interested, I am an occultist, if you come to my house and try to burn me at the stake I will call the police :p

hitekredneck
03-31-2007, 08:00 AM
I do not wish to see all Xians and jews and muslims dead, merely the religions themselves, though that is more likely because it is a far greater victory if they renounce their religion, I would rather have them see through my eyes, than to close theirs forever.

Hitler came far closer than most people, it could at least be said that he united a rather large part of the world. Alexander the Great conquered more, unless I am greatly mistaken, but who else has since then? Napoleon perhaps, I am not aware of the specifics of his conquest.



I assume you mean xianity after the 1900s. Just a hunch, based on Xians' near genocidal reaction to "witches" who were often simply people who realized the curative effects of pennicilin, a biproduct of a type of mold, before modern medicine did.



Xianity is a... special case, there are religions that I agree with on some things, disagree with on others, Taoism, Buddhism, although I do not really see these as religions, they don't have gods, per se, so they are belief systems, and the real version of Wicca, garnerian Wicca, of course, a bunch of hippies decided to steal the name, there are other religions, that, although they have a small amount of truth in them, I do not feel positively benefit those that follow them, but None has ever broken me like Xianity, I was Xian for most of my life, and that part of my past is now in ruins, we all wish to clear away such ruins, when one is broken away from a religion, from a belief, it makes them wish that belief to be ended.

I suppose... if you are really interested, I am an occultist, if you come to my house and try to burn me at the stake I will call the police :p

ok...i feel a little more understanding about you...i feel sad that somebody as young as you has obviously had an extremely bad experience that, while probably has nothing to do with the faith, still makes you despise it...i can understand that...you still didn't respond to my statement about the good that christianity does...yeah, i do mean modern version...lol...after what the christians did during the inquisition as well as the crusades, i'm surprised that the catholic church is still around...
i believe that the british kept napoleon in check for the most part, with the spaniards help...when they weren't fighting each other...napoleon was actually one of the best tacticians in history...right up there with alexander...hitler was a fair tactician, but not great...ever poor ones know better than to fight on more than two fronts...he had great tacticians working for him, but at the end, his paranoia was bad enough that he wouldn't listen to them at all...he still wouldn't have won, because we americanswould have reduced germany to a wasteland as we did hiroshima and nagasaki...
so you're an occultist...lol...if you read anything from my other posts, you'll find i have no problems with any type of faith that doesn't close the mind to possibilities...yeah, i don't care for the catholic faith for that very reason...
what i do have a problem is faiths that literally condemn all ideas without cause...

something
03-31-2007, 10:25 AM
Good and evil are subjective, but they do exist.

WhiteRaven
03-31-2007, 05:20 PM
"Good and evil are subjective, but they do exist."

kind of like big and small you mean? perhaps.

"he had great tacticians working for him, but at the end, his paranoia was bad enough that he wouldn't listen to them at all...he still wouldn't have won, because we americanswould have reduced germany to a wasteland as we did hiroshima and nagasaki..."

yeah his tactics weren't the best, I know, but I am more impressed with his persuasive ability. he was a very charismatic person, I mean, to convince people to scrape the skin off another person, and other such vicious tortures, simply for disagreeing with him, even to convince many of the tortured that it was for the best, strong influence indeed.

"so you're an occultist...lol...if you read anything from my other posts, you'll find i have no problems with any type of faith that doesn't close the mind to possibilities..."

I do not think occultism is a faith so much as... a desire to see hidden truths through one's own eyes, such as the spirit realm, most occultists attempt to see it for themselves, as opposed to relying on a deity. I have always been fascinated by psychic abilities, I tried to learn them even before I stopped being Xian, but from the end of that part of me, it was a small leap to delving deeper.

"yeah, i don't care for the catholic faith for that very reason...
what i do have a problem is faiths that literally condemn all ideas without cause..."

Catholicism, Protestantism, they often accuse each other of crimes they themselves commit.

"i feel sad that somebody as young as you has obviously had an extremely bad experience that, while probably has nothing to do with the faith"

*sigh* "what do you wish to hear, that I once believed in the code of the Jedi? That I felt the call of the sith, that for every good work I did I brought equal harm upon the galaxy that what the greatest of sith lords knew of evil they learned from me? that perhaps, once, I held the galaxy by it's throat"- Kreia

the text in bold is something I strongly identify with, that should be enough to convey my meaning. Also, I remember always being so afraid of hell, fortunately I met some universalists.

"you still didn't respond to my statement about the good that christianity does"

if you speak of aiding in research to end cancer and other life threatening things, then that's great.

if you speak of aiding in research to end all diseases, including minor ones, such as the common cold, then that's overzealous and stupid.

if you speak of getting help for homeless people with injuries that won't heal because they don't have the money to seek medical attention, then that's great.

if you speak of getting help for homeless people in general, many of which are just lazy, then you are weakening them.

I do not wish to see cancer survive because the body hasn't many ways to fight it, short of getting the nutrients that prevent it in the first place.

but bacterial diseases, viral diseases, we should not obsess over them, I am not saying you have to not wash your hands, merely that it's not the end of life as we know it if you occasionally forget.

something
04-01-2007, 01:07 AM
"Good and evil are subjective, but they do exist."

kind of like big and small you mean? perhaps.



Exactly. Good isn't always so good, and evil isn't always so evil.

MrJim
04-01-2007, 01:28 AM
What's good to one person isn't always 'good' to another person.. we are all free-thinkers.