Gun Control today, 1984 tomorrow

[General Septem]

George Orwell, Big Brother is watching your house

The Big Brother nightmare of George Orwell's 1984 has become a reality - in the shadow of the author's former London home.

It may have taken a little longer than he predicted, but Orwell's vision of a society where cameras and computers spy on every person's movements is now here.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391081-details/George+Orwell%2C+Big+Brother+is+watching+your+hous e/article.do

Viva la British Empire.

[chihuahua236]

George Orwell, Big Brother is watching your house

The Big Brother nightmare of George Orwell's 1984 has become a reality - in the shadow of the author's former London home.

It may have taken a little longer than he predicted, but Orwell's vision of a society where cameras and computers spy on every person's movements is now here.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391081-details/George+Orwell%2C+Big+Brother+is+watching+your+hous e/article.do

Viva la British Empire.

that is one place im not gonna live i mean if i screw my girlfriend r they gonna see me i mean thats just creepy:(

[hitekredneck]

George Orwell, Big Brother is watching your house

The Big Brother nightmare of George Orwell's 1984 has become a reality - in the shadow of the author's former London home.

It may have taken a little longer than he predicted, but Orwell's vision of a society where cameras and computers spy on every person's movements is now here.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23391081-details/George+Orwell%2C+Big+Brother+is+watching+your+hous e/article.do

Viva la British Empire.

i've known this fer a while, gen...was holdin it fer a good time to spring on our good liberal buddy england...course, he'll just tell us that his is the "better" society...:rolleyes:

[General Septem]

i've known this fer a while, gen...was holdin it fer a good time to spring on our good liberal buddy england...course, he'll just tell us that his is the "better" society...:rolleyes:

I'm sorry to spoil a bargaining card. :D

Did you hear about the new cameras that can detect the sound of a gun being fired, immediately swivel to the source of the noise, and call the cops?

[chihuahua236]

I'm sorry to spoil a bargaining card. :D

Did you hear about the new cameras that can detect the sound of a gun being fired, immediately swivel to the source of the noise, and call the cops?

shit might as well sell my gun just kidding lol:D

[hitekredneck]

I'm sorry to spoil a bargaining card. :D

Did you hear about the new cameras that can detect the sound of a gun being fired, immediately swivel to the source of the noise, and call the cops?

yeah...also heard that at times they will do a fly-by with something akin to a predator drone...they can put miniscule cameras, the size of a pinhead, on simply engineered propellers similar to a hovercraft, but able to reach much higher than a typical 6 or so inches...more like 20 feet, from what i read...have to look for that article someday...but imagine what that could do for your sex life if your woman thought ya might be getting watched? :eek:

[England Expects]

Studies have shown that in city centers where CCTV cameras are installed, crime has been slashed.

The only people to have anything to be concerned about with CCTV, are the criminals.

The 7/7 London bombers were identified by tracking back their journeys to London from Leeds via Luton through the rail network by examining CCTV footage.

Just another point about 1984 (I assume you've all read it) remember how Oceania was in a state of perpetual war with either Eurasia or Eastasia. Nobody really knew who or why but were kept servile to the party by the nationalism inspired in them.

I'd worry about that a little more if I were you.

WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH

[WhiteRaven]

"Studies have shown that in city centers where CCTV cameras are installed, crime has been slashed."

it's only a matter of time till the would be criminals snap...

"The only people to have anything to be concerned about with CCTV, are the criminals."

bullshit, it causes tremendous paranoia.

"Just another point about 1984 (I assume you've all read it) remember how Oceania was in a state of perpetual war with either Eurasia or Eastasia. Nobody really knew who or why but were kept servile to the party by the nationalism inspired in them."

yes, it was a clever form of mind control. having signs that made it look like big brother was glaring down at them, no matter where they were. Hell they even had psychics in their government...

"I'd worry about that a little more if I were you."

I kind of do, but I expect whatever government there is will always try to control the populace.

"WAR IS PEACE
FREEDOM IS SLAVERY
IGNORANCE IS STRENGTH"

all nonsense of course, even the first one since peace is a lie, and war is a truth, but they had a more correct slogan... what was it? Who controls the present controls the past, who controls the past controls the future?

[England Expects]

It doesn't cause paranoia. Not here anyway. You yanks are paranoid about everything.

It may lead to paranoia amongst the criminally minded, but to be fair, if it makes our city centres safe at night then I'm all for it.

[WhiteRaven]

"It doesn't cause paranoia."

of course it does you moron, how could it not? it is an extremely short leap from there to attempting complete mind control,

"You yanks are paranoid about everything."

Just to clarify, I'm not a "yank", I live in Tennessee, so unless yank means something different in english english...

"It may lead to paranoia amongst the criminally minded, but to be fair, if it makes our city centres safe at night then I'm all for it."

and if your government found a way to cause telepathy in spies, would there only be paranoia in the criminally minded then?

[England Expects]

How the fuck do you know that it causes paranoia? If you're in Tennessee, how can you tell if the Brits are paranoid?

What you really mean is that it would cause increased paranoia if it happened over there.

Telepathy spies? What planet is Tennessee on? The one with Elvis still on it I assume? I'd prefer to worry about things that are likely to happen, or at least possible.

And for your info, to us Brits, you're all "yanks", in the same way that we're all "limeys". BTW, I'm not a limey, I'm from Nottingham :D :D :D

[hitekredneck]

It doesn't cause paranoia. Not here anyway. You yanks are paranoid about everything.

It may lead to paranoia amongst the criminally minded, but to be fair, if it makes our city centres safe at night then I'm all for it.

yeah, and you libs are used to big brother doing everything for you exxcept wipe your ass...or is that next?...seriously, dude...i'ld much rather take my safety and well-being into my own hands that be put on fuckin display...this is exactly what i mean when i say you're starting to spout nonsense, england...i guess you brits don't believe you need privacy as well over there?...gimme a fuckin break, mang :cool:

[something]

Nah, big-brother is far away, by all meaning. Maybe the technology can support it, but I don't think it will happen. At least not in the closest future.

[hitekredneck]

Nah, big-brother is far away, by all meaning. Maybe the technology can support it, but I don't think it will happen. At least not in the closest future.

it's already here, something...you just need to read the writing on the wall...this is the reason americans are so paranoid about our freedoms and liberties....europes governments are trying to removwe the individual from society and instill mob rule

[something]

it's already here, something...you just need to read the writing on the wall...this is the reason americans are so paranoid about our freedoms and liberties....europes governments are trying to removwe the individual from society and instill mob rule

Just cause they can see what we're doing, doesn't it mean that they can control what we are doing. People still don't have cameras inside their houses, and they never will, unless they have some big collection of expensive artefacts in their living room, but most people don't.

[hitekredneck]

Just cause they can see what we're doing, doesn't it mean that they can control what we are doing. People still don't have cameras inside their houses, and they never will, unless they have some big collection of expensive artefacts in their living room, but most people don't.

they don't at this time....but with technology getting more intense and miniturized, it's only a matter of time...then there's always the rf chips, etc...like i said, you're just closing your eyes to the evidence shown

[something]

they don't at this time....but with technology getting more intense and miniturized, it's only a matter of time...then there's always the rf chips, etc...like i said, you're just closing your eyes to the evidence shown

I see the evidence, but just cause the technology exists, doesn't it mean that they will use it. I know that the politicans are lying bastards, but if they tried to do such a thing, I honestly think that they wouldn't succeed with it.

If one country starts doin' it secretly, it will sooner or later leak out to someone oustanding, and there will be a massive number of people that is against it. You've seen that Montana and Utah and a few other states slowly crawls forward and allow guns in every mans home, and with this forum as an example, that's how most americans want it, and with a majority of people that wants this very thing, there is going to be a deffernit change. At least I think so.

If the government gets crazy, starts doing something that no one but them like, they wont have the power on their side, you know the french revulotion, so it might start to happen, but it would probably never succeed completely.

[hitekredneck]

I see the evidence, but just cause the technology exists, doesn't it mean that they will use it. I know that the politicans are lying bastards, but if they tried to do such a thing, I honestly think that they wouldn't succeed with it.

If one country starts doin' it secretly, it will sooner or later leak out to someone oustanding, and there will be a massive number of people that is against it. You've seen that Montana and Utah and a few other states slowly crawls forward and allow guns in every mans home, and with this forum as an example, that's how most americans want it, and with a majority of people that wants this very thing, there is going to be a deffernit change. At least I think so.

If the government gets crazy, starts doing something that no one but them like, they wont have the power on their side, you know the french revulotion, so it might start to happen, but it would probably never succeed completely.


mebbe so, something....but methinks the general civilian population needs to be paying more attention to what their government is doing :cool:

[General Septem]

Studies have shown that in city centers where CCTV cameras are installed, crime has been slashed.

The only people to have anything to be concerned about with CCTV, are the criminals.

Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety. - Benjamin Franklin

I don't know if you've ever really thought about what this means. Franklin wasn't just trying to say that these people should have both taken away, but that by nature they necessarily will lose both. You can't give up your liberty to purchase safety. If the provider of your safety decides you're a criminal, then you're neither free nor safe.



Just another point about 1984 (I assume you've all read it) remember how Oceania was in a state of perpetual war with either Eurasia or Eastasia. Nobody really knew who or why but were kept servile to the party by the nationalism inspired in them.

I'd worry about that a little more if I were you.

What are you trying to say?

[General Septem]

How the fuck do you know that it causes paranoia? If you're in Tennessee, how can you tell if the Brits are paranoid?

If you're in Britain, how can you tell if the Americans are paranoid? :D

[England Expects]

If you're in Britain, how can you tell if the Americans are paranoid? :D

Mainly because you're all ranting on here about how your freedoms are under threat.

You only have to look at how the American public react to American conflict to see my point about 1984.

People who disagree with it are ALWAYS marginalised, tarred as either traitors or "girlymen" and our friend Walter so eloquently puts it, and you NEVER elect anyone other than the current President during time of conflict.

America is using the war on terror, which they promise will last decades, to keep you subservient. War is peace.

[General Septem]

Mainly because you're all ranting on here about how your freedoms are under threat.

The line between theory and fact is whether or not it can be proven. I'd say it's already been documented that our liberty, justice, and privacy are being taken away bit by bit. Our liberty to carry guns for instance. You can't possibly argue that our liberties aren't being infringed. It's not paranoia. I'm not looking at where we are and worrying that it's going to get worse. I'm looking at where we are and I'm pissed because it's already gone too far.

Even if I was just paranoid, just because you're paranoid doesn't mean there isn't someone out to get you. ;)



You only have to look at how the American public react to American conflict to see my point about 1984.

People who disagree with it are ALWAYS marginalised, tarred as either traitors or "girlymen" and our friend Walter so eloquently puts it, and you NEVER elect anyone other than the current President during time of conflict.

America is using the war on terror, which they promise will last decades, to keep you subservient. War is peace.

I see your point and I've noticed this as well. But to say it's a bigger problem than Big Brother is dangerous.

[England Expects]

I dont see where your rights are being removed.

The 2nd amendment gives you the right to weapons and I've not heard anyone suggest it should be changed, even the gun control lobby. Ensuring your responsibilities are proportional to your rights is not an infringement of civil liberties.

You miss my point. Perpetual war IS big brother.

The camera's are only a threat to criminals. The technology to do silly stuff like thought surveillance does not exist and will probably never exist and even if it did, any government who suggested using it would be thrown out of office.

Again, Its scaremongering from paranoid people who always think they're under threat. Chill out, you might just live a bit longer.

[General Septem]

The 2nd amendment gives you the right to weapons and I've not heard anyone suggest it should be changed, even the gun control lobby. Ensuring your responsibilities are proportional to your rights is not an infringement of civil liberties.

It's not just guns, but even out gun rights are being restricted. Any rights restriction is an infringement, so they are technically violating the Second Amendment.


You miss my point. Perpetual war IS big brother.

Only partially. Granted, the war on terror, drugs, prejudice, etc. are all excuses for the government to persecute people for any and every reason they see fit, but it's not the only thing by a long shot. That's just part of the system.


The camera's are only a threat to criminals.

There was no crime in 1984 either. The question is, would having cameras up our asses 24/7 really be better than the occasional crime? I for one will take care of myself, thanks. I don't need the government to keep tabs on me all the time, all I need is a variety of guns and a switchblade.

What if the government watched you all the time and arbitrarily decided that something you practice is "dangerous"? What if you wanted to make a political statement? After all, when it comes to political messages, it's not about who's right or who's wrong, it's who has a bigger police force. What if you just don't want men in black suits to be able to see every fucking step you make?


The technology to do silly stuff like thought surveillance does not exist and will probably never exist and even if it did, any government who suggested using it would be thrown out of office.

That's where your naivety is your undoing. It does exist. Not in the form of brain wave scanners, but in the form of a society conditioned to shun, hate, and revile anyone who displays any sign of free thought. A society brainwashed enough that Isaiah Washington believed he needed to check into rehab for using a politically incorrect word. A society in which people can be sued for saying the wrong thing. A society in which everything is either hate speech, an "expression or threat of violence", sexual harassment, or paranoia, and more importantly that all of these things are criminalized, since in a free society it wouldn't matter since violence, sex, and hatred are personal choices.


Again, Its scaremongering from paranoid people who always think they're under threat. Chill out, you might just live a bit longer.

I'm pissed off, not paranoid or afraid. I'm pissed off that I, a legal adult, can't go to the liquor store and purchase a bottle of Gordon's, a bottle of vodka, and a bottle of Kina Lillet and make myself a James Bond-style Vesper. I'm pissed off that I can't wear a mask in public without facing charges of criminal anarchy. I'm pissed off that anarchy is a fucking crime to begin with. And I'm pissed off at everything in between that the government has no right to impose. You'd be surprised at the number of things that are considered crimes, or aren't even crimes but are criminalized anyway.

[freakazoid]

You can't control guns with gun control. Any fool who thinks it can be done is ignorant. If you try, only criminals will have guns. That is just a plain fact of life.

[chihuahua236]

You can't control guns with gun control. Any fool who thinks it can be done is ignorant. If you try, only criminals will have guns. That is just a plain fact of life.

if they think that they can control guns sooner or later a criminal is gonna catch them off guard and kill hundreds of people before they can stop him.Unless the cops carry tazers instead of glocks or whatever the fuck they use

[freakazoid]

if they think that they can control guns sooner or later a criminal is gonna catch them off guard and kill hundreds of people before they can stop him.Unless the cops carry tazers instead of glocks or whatever the fuck they use

Gun control is a idiot's pipe dream and a fantasy. Only stupid people believe in it.

[England Expects]

Gun control is a idiot's pipe dream and a fantasy. Only stupid people believe in it.

There are about 500 million idiots in the Europe that believe in gun control. It works just fine here. Even in Switzerland, the country which you pathetically tried to claim had liberal gun laws.

Again, we see that your intellectual capacity only allows you to engage people with whom you disagree with by calling them idiots or morons.

Anyway, more importantly.

Septem posts

"It's not just guns, but even out gun rights are being restricted. Any rights restriction is an infringement, so they are technically violating the Second Amendment."

I disagree. The 2nd amendment calls for a well regulated militia. Note the word regulated. Its calls for responsibilities as well as rights. Just giving everyone a gun does not give you a well regulated militia. It gives you an UN-regulated militia.

"There was no crime in 1984 either."

Yeah there was. Amongst the proletariat. Read the book General.

"That's where your naivety is your undoing. It does exist. Not in the form of brain wave scanners, but in the form of a society conditioned to shun, hate, and revile anyone who displays any sign of free thought. A society brainwashed enough that Isaiah Washington believed he needed to check into rehab for using a politically incorrect word. A society in which people can be sued for saying the wrong thing. A society in which everything is either hate speech, an "expression or threat of violence", sexual harassment, or paranoia, and more importantly that all of these things are criminalized, since in a free society it wouldn't matter since violence, sex, and hatred are personal choices."

I agree with much of that, but the point originally was that camera's are a threat because its only a small step from that to being able to read your mind with them. Its absurd. I disagree that violence is a personal choice. Not for the victim its not.

"I'm pissed off that I, a legal adult, can't go to the liquor store and purchase a bottle of Gordon's, a bottle of vodka, and a bottle of Kina Lillet and make myself a James Bond-style Vesper."

Thats the logic of the US. As we've said before, its insane that at 18 you can vote,drive a car, get married, have kids, own a gun or go overseas and die fighting in a war, but you cant buy a fucking beer. Madness.

[General Septem]

I disagree. The 2nd amendment calls for a well regulated militia. Note the word regulated. Its calls for responsibilities as well as rights. Just giving everyone a gun does not give you a well regulated militia. It gives you an UN-regulated militia.

It calls for a well-regulated militia and the right of the people to keep and bear arms. It calls for the militia to be regulated, not the right of the people to keep and bear arms.



Yeah there was. Amongst the proletariat. Read the book General.

The proles weren't under surveillance, either. Out of everyone, they probably had it the best.



I agree with much of that, but the point originally was that camera's are a threat because its only a small step from that to being able to read your mind with them. Its absurd.

I never said that. If that's the impression you're getting, then I can see why you're taking the position you are. But as I have said, I'm not afraid or paranoid of what's to come, I'm pissed off at what already is. I don't care if they can read minds or not. I care if there's someone who can monitor my every step.



I disagree that violence is a personal choice. Not for the victim its not.

I meant in terms of speech. If someone expresses a deep desire to rape some girl or come into school and start shooting people I think the matter needs to be looked into, but any mention of anything the least bit violent can and will get you fired, expelled, and evicted regardless of when and where you said it, and violence isn't even always a bad thing.



Thats the logic of the US. As we've said before, its insane that at 18 you can vote,drive a car, get married, have kids, own a gun or go overseas and die fighting in a war, but you cant buy a fucking beer. Madness.

You can't even own a handgun. You can own a rifle or shotgun. :(

I'm not the kind of person who is satisfied with "that's the logic of the US" though. Once someone is a legal adult they should be entitled to all rights, except the Presidency.

[England Expects]

I dont need or want a handgun. I dont even want a rifle or shotgun. I do want a beer though.

**opens bottle of Staropramen**:)

I do think its bizarre that at 18 the government will trust you with a gun, but wont trust you with a beer. Which one is potentially more dangerous if abused???

If the government or security services want to keep you under surveillance, they will do. They dont need CCTV cameras to do that, they make no difference whatsoever.

WhiteRaven was suggesting that they are part of some sort of underhand plot and that thought surveillance is next but I dont buy that. They're more to do with identifying and providing evidence for court against people causing trouble in city centres.

[hitekredneck]

I dont need or want a handgun. I dont even want a rifle or shotgun. I do want a beer though.

**opens bottle of Staropramen**:)

I do think its bizarre that at 18 the government will trust you with a gun, but wont trust you with a beer. Which one is potentially more dangerous if abused???

If the government or security services want to keep you under surveillance, they will do. They dont need CCTV cameras to do that, they make no difference whatsoever.

WhiteRaven was suggesting that they are part of some sort of underhand plot and that thought surveillance is next but I dont buy that. They're more to do with identifying and providing evidence for court against people causing trouble in city centres.


you're right about the drinking age, of course...and you're also right that if the government wants, they will watch....but i think that you're missing the point...with the ability to watch also comes the ability to manipulate what people see...also there's the fact that these are the same people that decide what's legal and what isn't...you're more than welcome to kick back with your beer, watch a good ole soccer or rugby (now that's a man's game) and ignore the obvious evidence that tells anybody with intelligence that the only true utopian style of society would naturally be a situation as in orwell's '84....think about it

[freakazoid]

There are about 500 million idiots in the Europe that believe in gun control. It works just fine here. Even in Switzerland, the country which you pathetically tried to claim had liberal gun laws.

Again, we see that your intellectual capacity only allows you to engage people with whom you disagree with by calling them idiots or morons.

Anyway, more importantly.

Septem posts

"It's not just guns, but even out gun rights are being restricted. Any rights restriction is an infringement, so they are technically violating the Second Amendment."

I disagree. The 2nd amendment calls for a well regulated militia. Note the word regulated. Its calls for responsibilities as well as rights. Just giving everyone a gun does not give you a well regulated militia. It gives you an UN-regulated militia.

"There was no crime in 1984 either."

Yeah there was. Amongst the proletariat. Read the book General.

"That's where your naivety is your undoing. It does exist. Not in the form of brain wave scanners, but in the form of a society conditioned to shun, hate, and revile anyone who displays any sign of free thought. A society brainwashed enough that Isaiah Washington believed he needed to check into rehab for using a politically incorrect word. A society in which people can be sued for saying the wrong thing. A society in which everything is either hate speech, an "expression or threat of violence", sexual harassment, or paranoia, and more importantly that all of these things are criminalized, since in a free society it wouldn't matter since violence, sex, and hatred are personal choices."

I agree with much of that, but the point originally was that camera's are a threat because its only a small step from that to being able to read your mind with them. Its absurd. I disagree that violence is a personal choice. Not for the victim its not.

"I'm pissed off that I, a legal adult, can't go to the liquor store and purchase a bottle of Gordon's, a bottle of vodka, and a bottle of Kina Lillet and make myself a James Bond-style Vesper."

Thats the logic of the US. As we've said before, its insane that at 18 you can vote,drive a car, get married, have kids, own a gun or go overseas and die fighting in a war, but you cant buy a fucking beer. Madness.

RE: "There are about 500 million idiots in the Europe that believe in gun control."

Correct. http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[England Expects]

you're right about the drinking age, of course...and you're also right that if the government wants, they will watch....but i think that you're missing the point...with the ability to watch also comes the ability to manipulate what people see...also there's the fact that these are the same people that decide what's legal and what isn't...you're more than welcome to kick back with your beer, watch a good ole soccer or rugby (now that's a man's game) and ignore the obvious evidence that tells anybody with intelligence that the only true utopian style of society would naturally be a situation as in orwell's '84....think about it

I think thats possibly the first time I've agreed with you completely!:)

We don't have a utopian society and that's obviously unachievable. Every society has its own problems and its right that we should address them. The cameras are a way of providing evidence against people in city centres who are committing criminal offences. They are no more of a threat to our society or freedom than MI5 or your CIA.

Freak, you're clearly an imbecile.

[WhiteRaven]

"Telepathy spies? What planet is Tennessee on? The one with Elvis still on it I assume? I'd prefer to worry about things that are likely to happen, or at least possible."

if you do not believe in such, then never mind, my point was that one does necessarily have to be a criminal, in order to have a problem with an invasion of privacy.

"You miss my point. Perpetual war IS big brother."

perpetual war is life.

"Yeah there was. Amongst the proletariat. Read the book General."

I don't recall anyone in the book making laws for the proles, they regarded them as animals, toss them food every once in a while, and let them do whatever, how can crimes be commited without laws, exactly?

"its insane that at 18 you can vote,drive a car, get married, have kids, own a gun or go overseas and die fighting in a war, but you cant buy a fucking beer."

okay, that much I will agree with.

"WhiteRaven was suggesting that they are part of some sort of underhand plot and that thought surveillance is next but I dont buy that. They're more to do with identifying and providing evidence for court against people causing trouble in city centres."

... I was not saying it was necessarily next, only that it's a likely leap, your paraphrasal gave my words more definitivity than they originally held.

[England Expects]

if you do not believe in such, then never mind, my point was that one does necessarily have to be a criminal, in order to have a problem with an invasion of privacy.

Possibly, but CCTV cameras are not new. Government are capable of 24 hour surveillance anyway so I don't see the problem.

My understanding is that the vast majority of the cameras are not in residential areas, just in city centres, unless of course they are in residential areas with huge crime rates. Before they are installed any residents near the the proposed sites have the chance to object, and it would be illegal for the police to use the cameras to monitor someones property.

"I was not saying it was necessarily next, only that it's a likely leap, your paraphrasal gave my words more definitivity than they originally held."

I apologise for mis-representing you Raven, but I disagree that the next leap is likely.

[freakazoid]

Possibly, but CCTV cameras are not new. Government are capable of 24 hour surveillance anyway so I don't see the problem.

My understanding is that the vast majority of the cameras are not in residential areas, just in city centres, unless of course they are in residential areas with huge crime rates. Before they are installed any residents near the the proposed sites have the chance to object, and it would be illegal for the police to use the cameras to monitor someones property.

"I was not saying it was necessarily next, only that it's a likely leap, your paraphrasal gave my words more definitivity than they originally held."

I apologise for mis-representing you Raven, but I disagree that the next leap is likely.

The more I read of "England Expects," the more brain washed I see that our dull friend from Britain and subject of the queen is. Sad.

RE: "but CCTV cameras are not new. Government are capable of 24 hour surveillance anyway so I don't see the problem."

1984 in Britain. Do you feel safer?

[conspiracy]

I'm only posting this though in response to video surveillance and how it is actually stripping our rights slowly each year. Technology is a blessing and a curse both I fear. England, you say that video surveillance is only used in heavy traffic area for violent crimes OR in neighborhoods where there is a high crime rate. Bet you any money there is a camera in YOUR neighborhood already. Bet they could know if they wanted exactly when you brush your teeth at night or when you have a woman in your bed. Camera's are everywhere. They can be real small too, the size of a dime and you wouldn't know where they are.

In the USA ,a camera can give you a speeding ticket , they know when you go to Walmart or to the hardware store. They see everything. That to me is a violation of my right to privacy. The more technology advances they less privacy we as the human race have. I believe even though the original intent to use camera surveillance was to curb crime it isn't working because the criminals don't care if they are being watched.

We have a neighborhood near the city of Pittsburgh, PA called Homewood. It is the worst area for crime , drugs and prostitution. The police and the city put up cameras and even announced they were doing so. In that neighborhood that same night there were still 5 killings and the cameras could not prove anything nor did they see much.

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety" BEN FRANKLIN

[General Septem]

Not to mention it's pretty easy to fool any camera by wearing a mask. :D

[freakazoid]

I think thats possibly the first time I've agreed with you completely!:)

We don't have a utopian society and that's obviously unachievable. Every society has its own problems and its right that we should address them. The cameras are a way of providing evidence against people in city centres who are committing criminal offences. They are no more of a threat to our society or freedom than MI5 or your CIA.

Freak, you're clearly an imbecile.

RE: "Freak, you're clearly an imbecile."

Maybe, but YOU have FAILED to provide even ONE point to prove your little pet belief in so-called "gun control." Sooooo, it would seem to me (and, by the look of things, most people on this forum), that YOU are the brainwashed imbecile. Not I, subject (i.e., property) of the queen. Your arguments trying to prove to us that "gun control" = "crime control" have entirely failed http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon13.gif...

England Expects, you're clearly an imbecile. http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon13.gif



PS, just what is it that "England Expects?" http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon5.gif

[freakazoid]

Not to mention it's pretty easy to fool any camera by wearing a mask. :D

LOL, LMAO!!! I have seen that on a London street!! Some "bloke" was walking around with a mask on presumingly to protest the fact that damn near every farking street in merry ole' London is under observation. I guess Britain doesn't trust it's people and feels that they must be watched 24/7...kind of like a kindergarten. :D

Foot Note...LMAO!! I bet Britain has the largest database of digital photos of people on the streets or in their cars picking their noses! :D

[conspiracy]

RE: "Freak, you're clearly an imbecile."

Maybe, but YOU have FAILED to provide even ONE point to prove your little pet belief in so-called "gun control." Sooooo, it would seem to me (and, by the look of things, most people on this forum), that YOU are the brainwashed imbecile. Not I, subject (i.e., property) of the queen. Your arguments trying to prove to us that "gun control" = "crime control" have entirely failed http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon13.gif...

England Expects, you're clearly an imbecile. http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon13.gif



PS, just what is it that "England Expects?" http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon5.gif

I don't necessarily think England is an idiot. He has a different culture and was raised in such that government is a way of life. God Save the Queen so to speak and it's ever lasting monarchial British ways. (No Offense England)
Keep in mind that in England the general belief from what I understand is that they were taught that the government would always protect them therefore the need for a handgun or firearms other that hunting for sport is unneeded.

[freakazoid]

Mainly because you're all ranting on here about how your freedoms are under threat.

You only have to look at how the American public react to American conflict to see my point about 1984.

People who disagree with it are ALWAYS marginalised, tarred as either traitors or "girlymen" and our friend Walter so eloquently puts it, and you NEVER elect anyone other than the current President during time of conflict.

America is using the war on terror, which they promise will last decades, to keep you subservient. War is peace.

England Expects, you live in a country that is becoming more and more totalistic and oppressive (rapidly), and, you are trying to convince us in the United States that we need to follow your weak kneed pathetic example. My answer to you and your socialist country (now under the control of the EU) is simple...

fuck you.

[freakazoid]

I don't necessarily think England is an idiot. He has a different culture and was raised in such that government is a way of life. God Save the Queen so to speak and it's ever lasting monarchial British ways. (No Offense England)
Keep in mind that in England the general belief from what I understand is that they were taught that the government would always protect them therefore the need for a handgun or firearms other that hunting for sport is unneeded.

Yup, I know. And, that is what Hitler claimed..."the government would always protect them." Yup, he "protected them" alright...the rest, as they say, is history.

[WhiteRaven]

I can't believe no one has mentioned the song, "Let There be Guns" by the Arrogant worms yet...

*singing* One, two, three, four...
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun
There'd be no more crime, 'cause everybody'd have a gun!
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun
we wouldn't need the police no more, 'cause everybody'd have a gun!
(Yeah!)
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun (had a gun)
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun (had a gun)
Nobody'd ever get shot, 'cause everybody'd have a gun! (Makes sense!)
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun
We could go out and shoot things
We could go out and shoot things
We could go out and shoot things
We could go out and shoot things
We could go out and shoot things
We could go out and shoot things
We'd all feel safe, 'cause everybody'd have a gun!
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun (had a gun)
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun (had a gun)
Everyone'd be equal, 'cause everybody'd have a gun!
Not me, I got me a rifle!
Well hang on, if you got yourself a rifle then I wanna get me a semi-automatic
weapon!
You get a semi-automatic weapon and I'm gonna want an automatic weapon!
You get yourself an automatic weapon, I'm gonna get a super-automatic weapon!
Well if you get a super-automatic weapon, then I'm gonna get a
super-duper-automatic weapon with a CD-ROM drive!
If you get yourself one of those I'm gonna get a
super-duper-automatic weapon with a CD-ROM drive, and a big old hard
drive, and a big guitar amp so I can play BTOs...
(rants on while the rest of the Worms sing)
woudn't it be great if everybody had the weapon of their choice
woudn't it be great if everybody had the weapon of their choice
woudn't it be great if everybody had a wepon of theri choice
(Still ranting..)
I'll go so fast I'll be able to chase you from here to Saigon, and
then I'll shoot like little Nerf rockets at you and poke you in the
eye 'cause it'll have automatic like finger-poking in the eye
things and I'll get myself another guitar amp...
(faded)
One, two, three, four...
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun
There'd be no more crime, 'cause everybody'd have a gun!
woudn't it be great if everybody had a gun

what a great song...

"England Expects, you live in a country that is becoming more and more totalistic and oppressive (rapidly), and, you are trying to convince us in the United States that we need to follow your weak kneed pathetic example. My answer to you and your socialist country (now under the control of the EU) is simple..."

Iran captured some british people, and all the prime minister had to do to get them free was say they were in their water, but he refused, why was that?

[England Expects]

"Iran captured some british people, and all the prime minister had to do to get them free was say they were in their water, but he refused, why was that?"

Because they were not in Iranian water. We shouldn't back down if we know we're right. Why that is relevant I've no idea.

Freak, I've posted evidence that the US has far more murders, more assaults, more burglaries and more instances of motor theft that western Europe, but you refused to reply.

I blew your suggestion that Switzerland had liberal gun laws out of the water, and you refused to reply.

I suggested that Vermont's low crime rate is probably because no fucker lives there, rather than because they have C&C, but you refused to reply.

Freak, I have not failed to argue that gun control = low crime. I've made my case, and you have failed to make a counter argument.

There are plenty here who think guns are great, but you think I'm the one who's brainwashed because I don't conform. :rolleyes:

Why do you keep banging on about the Queen?? I bet you were amongst the crowd last week that were wetting themselves because the actually got to see her.

Just a note about my name. At the commencement of the battle of Tafalgar, Admiral Lord Nelson sent a signal to the naval fleet that "England expects that every man will do his duty" We trounced the Spanish and French and brought an end to the Napoleonic war. One day, the US might have a military victory or leader to remember.

[something]

Freak, I've posted evidence that the US has far more murders, more assaults, more burglaries and more instances of motor theft that western Europe, but you refused to reply.

I don't think guns is the main reason here. You have to count a lot more things in a country to explain crimes. If you don't count in the gun control, I guess theere still be a big difference between europe and usa to explain crimes.


I suggested that Vermont's low crime rate is probably because no fucker lives there, rather than because they have C&C, but you refused to reply.

I'm pretty sure that he said the same thing when you compared Britain to the U.S.

[hitekredneck]

i have a theory on the drifference in crime between the us and the uk and europe...here in the us, we welcome the opportunity (for the most part) to take responsibility for our own safety into our own hands, and so we don't rely on the state as much as eruope and the uk do...we also probably report a lot more crime, because the us has a better record of prosecution than those areas...also, the media here in the us thrives on "bad news", i.e. high crime, horror and terror stories, so a lot of it goes out instead of pleasant, fuzzy-feeling stories...i don't think it's so much whether the gun laws are in effect, tho i do think they are another facet of society and do have an effect psychologically if nothing else on crime....

[something]

i have a theory on the drifference in crime between the us and the uk and europe...here in the us, we welcome the opportunity (for the most part) to take responsibility for our own safety into our own hands, and so we don't rely on the state as much as eruope and the uk do...we also probably report a lot more crime, because the us has a better record of prosecution than those areas...also, the media here in the us thrives on "bad news", i.e. high crime, horror and terror stories, so a lot of it goes out instead of pleasant, fuzzy-feeling stories...i don't think it's so much whether the gun laws are in effect, tho i do think they are another facet of society and do have an effect psychologically if nothing else on crime....

That's exactly my point. There is defferences, and more crime doesn't mean more crime of the same kind as here.

[England Expects]

Your theory may have some merit hitek, but I'm confused that you think you take care of your own safety, but report more crime to the police. That doesn't seem to add up to me.

I don't think the US media are so different either. In the UK we get news channels from all over, from Russia, China, India, Europe and the US and they all carry the same bad news horror stories. Our printed media is worse.

World over, there will always be more books sold about Hitler than Mother Theresa.

Freedom of speech and freedom of expression must always be defended, but Karl Marx (the moron:rolleyes:) was right when he said it wasn't always beneficial to society.

[hitekredneck]

Your theory may have some merit hitek, but I'm confused that you think you take care of your own safety, but report more crime to the police. That doesn't seem to add up to me.

I don't think the US media are so different either. In the UK we get news channels from all over, from Russia, China, India, Europe and the US and they all carry the same bad news horror stories. Our printed media is worse.

World over, there will always be more books sold about Hitler than Mother Theresa.

Freedom of speech and freedom of expression must always be defended, but Karl Marx (the moron:rolleyes:) was right when he said it wasn't always beneficial to society.

what i meant by people here reporting it more, is the fact that in the us, we do have a better chance of conviction and prison time, tho it doesn't always work out that way....from what i've read about the british judicial system, you guys only have a general conviction rate of around 27%...you're right about the freedom of the press, which isn't the same as freedom of expression at all...i know, i'm gonna have to hunt for those numbers that i'm talking about, but i've been kinda busy...:cool:

[England Expects]

I'm not sure what the conviction rate is either, but I do understand that its pretty poor. Possibly because we have a greater tendency to report crime, even when we cannot provide sufficient evidence.

The conviction rate, no matter how low, would not make me any less likely to report a crime though.

[hitekredneck]

I'm not sure what the conviction rate is either, but I do understand that its pretty poor. Possibly because we have a greater tendency to report crime, even when we cannot provide sufficient evidence.

The conviction rate, no matter how low, would not make me any less likely to report a crime though.

not necessarily you, but people tend to get discouraged when nothing happens after the report...that's the biggest reason that people DON'T report crimes...wonder if there's ever been a study done on that?

[WhiteRaven]

"Because they were not in Iranian water. We shouldn't back down if we know we're right. Why that is relevant I've no idea."

just something I've been wondering, so tell me, how does one measure who owns water, there are very few landmarks in water, correct? and would admitting it give them that water? If so, then I could understand, but if not, then there is no reason not to lie.

[England Expects]

They had satellite GPS systems that clearly showed them in Iraqi water.

It was a case of Iran asserting itself. They want to be big players in the region, so they crossed into Iraqi waters and kidnapped some British servicemen, for no other reason than they could.

I dont think it would have been appropriate for Britain to cow to an aggressor. We've NEVER done it before.

[hitekredneck]

They had satellite GPS systems that clearly showed them in Iraqi water.

It was a case of Iran asserting itself. They want to be big players in the region, so they crossed into Iraqi waters and kidnapped some British servicemen, for no other reason than they could.

I dont think it would have been appropriate for Britain to cow to an aggressor. We've NEVER done it before.

i'll be damned...england, nobody should bow to a bully, that's how you spread victimization...

[MrJim]

I dont think it would have been appropriate for Britain to cow to an aggressor. We've NEVER done it before.

Funny, it seems like when America refuses to bow down to another country, we are considered aggressors by half the world.

[England Expects]

Funny, it seems like when America refuses to bow down to another country, we are considered aggressors by half the world.

Well when a similar thing happened under President Carter, didn't you send in US special forces to get them back? Only to get their asses kicked?

[hitekredneck]

Well when a similar thing happened under President Carter, didn't you send in US special forces to get them back? Only to get their asses kicked?

only because carter didn't listen to his military advisors...they ALL suggested that he send in much more than he did...carter was, and is, a horses ass...and a liberal one to boot...at least his daughter was better lookin than chelsea clinton

[Dubyah's revenge]

National I.D. cards will be the nail in the coffin.

What is happening now in the US and britain is very real and very terrifying.
The surviellance nation is unfolding right in front of our eyes, and yet everybody opinions seem to be so conflicted.
We're wasting SO much time argueing about whether it's right or wrong, good or bad.
The facts are that the government and media have done such a good job scaring us into submission. We live in Fear. The government sells us lies to terrify us.
Then we all start to need security, I.D., CCTV,RFID chips, biometric scanning etc etc etc.

Please people. Just stop rambling and muttering petty arguements and wake up.
There is so much information on the internet and in books to learn the truth. TURN OFF your television for five fucking minutes!!! And pick up a book!!! (I recommend Webster Griffin Tarpley's last release.

Stop shooting at one another, turn off your tv and learn something real, before it's too late.

[hitekredneck]

National I.D. cards will be the nail in the coffin.

What is happening now in the US and britain is very real and very terrifying.
The surviellance nation is unfolding right in front of our eyes, and yet everybody opinions seem to be so conflicted.
We're wasting SO much time argueing about whether it's right or wrong, good or bad.
The facts are that the government and media have done such a good job scaring us into submission. We live in Fear. The government sells us lies to terrify us.
Then we all start to need security, I.D., CCTV,RFID chips, biometric scanning etc etc etc.

Please people. Just stop rambling and muttering petty arguements and wake up.
There is so much information on the internet and in books to learn the truth. TURN OFF your television for five fucking minutes!!! And pick up a book!!! (I recommend Webster Griffin Tarpley's last release.

Stop shooting at one another, turn off your tv and learn something real, before it's too late.

just a simple question, dr...why don't you just start a new thred for your conspiracies instead of pre empting another?

[WhiteRaven]

may I please kill Dubyah's Revenge?

[chihuahua236]

may I please kill Dubyah's Revenge?

sure but let me get my mini gun and i'll help:D

[hitekredneck]

may I please kill Dubyah's Revenge?

i say we superglue his buttocks to a slow moving train and test his endurance :D

[chihuahua236]

i say we superglue his buttocks to a slow moving train and test his endurance :D

and if he isnt dead load the train with crates upon craytes of grenades pull the pin on one then shove it up his ass and laugh when his body rips apart and sprays blood everywhere.
I'M FUCKING EVIL!!!!!:p :D :p