Religion

[Josh]

Since there is no religion page, yet, I will use the politics page, instead.

Revelation, or revealed religion, is defined in Webster's New World Dictionary as: "God's disclosure to man of Himself." This should read, "God's alleged disclosure to man of himself." For unless God reveals to each of us individually that a particular religion is truly His disclosure to us of Himself, then, by believing that religion, we are not taking His word for it, but we are instead putting our belief in the person or institution telling us it is so. This is what we are doing when we believe in any revealed religion, and that's all Christianity is. It's a revealed religion like many others such as Islam and Judaism. Revealed religion gets dangerous however, when it crosses over the line into politics. This is the admitted goal of the Christian Coalition. God allegedly revealed to Pat Robertson and his Coalition, that He wants them to take over America and eventually the world with "His Word," so the laws of the nations will mirror the laws in the Bible, which, if you know what's in the Bible, is terrifying. This, too, is what the Ayatollah's goal was, only his "revealed word of God" was the Koran, an other revelation. Are we to believe Pat when he says the Bible is revelation of God's Word?

[Tinkerbell]

This is for the person who startted me talking about religion. First of all GOD is the most high God. If you read in the Bible you would know that. You shouldn't have to see him to believe in him. Do you see love I don't think so you believe in love just as GOD. Well I'm going to stop talking about the King Of KIngs and the Lord of Lords. I will just have to pray for you. :p

[Josh]

I didn't say there isn't a God. I said revealed religion is bullshit. We all follow what our fathers teach us. That's a fact. Each of us is a product of our own upbringing. If there is a God, he's not going to judge anyone based on soemthing they all-in-all can't control (wich includes anything). This is why if there is a God, he wouldn't be inclined to judge at all. When you look at everything as a whole, and not assumeing that the interest of human beings is the center of the universe, you see there is nothing to judge, but rather just matter in motion. God doesn't care what we believe in (again, for the sake of argument, assuming there is a God) because he would be infinitely above any of it. Because of our own wants, we are under the impression that there is one, perfect moral judgment which should be followed by all. That's BULLSHIT! Each person wants something differant and is going to go after it. Some people pursue what they want by getting others to agree with them and help them in their pursuit. That's where the belief in ONE perfect judgment comes in and it's BULLSHIT! It's up to you, the individual, to decide what you value.

BTW: It is very cowardly for someone to insert an opinion, which is obviously going to draw a rebuttal, only to leave the discussion . . . http://forum.bullshit.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif

[Tomi]

Why is there enough religion to incite war and not enough religion to instill tolerance?
Religion is perfect for scapegoating, especially when one cannot take the blame for one has done. Similarly, religion is inseparable from politics since it is a form of politics and a system of rule which uses 'God' as the reason for acting in various ways as seen fit.

Can anyone possibly explain something to me? If it said in the Bible that we are not to worship or have any other Gods than the Lord and if we do we will be cast to depths of hell, does this mean, according to Christian philosophy, that people practising religions other than Christianity and worshipping other Gods will be knocking at the gates of Hell?

Tomi

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

If anyone reads this then you need to go read the Bible. Everyone beleives in different things. Not all of the Christians beleive in the same thing. There are 147 different demonitations in the Christianty belief. Please go read the Bible. Everyone needs to!

[rash]

i believe that right now in this world religion is the only thing that’s stopping people from becoming totally out of control. Using it for personal benefit is definitely wrong. So religion is not all BULLSHIT.

[Josh]

I've read the bible more times than years any of you have been alive. That's not the point. The point is that to believe in it you are not taking God's word for it, but rather the people who wrote it, and more comonly, your parents and their parents. Religion doesn't keep people under control. Look at what it's done to the middle east and tell me that religion keeps people in line. Laws, however, do. The majority has a way of saying to the rest of the world that if you don't like the way we run things then you will die, because there are more of us, and we will fight for it. That is what keeps everybody on the same page. Of course, the majority wants things to be peaceful, which is why the laws in most countries support a peaceful comunity. Religion just makes people think that the laws don't matter because there is something greater than people, and that something's will is what we should follow. Then, what the foolish don't realize, is that that "higher will" is just the word of a few 2,000 year old politicians who, like most politicians, would lie to get the majority on their side.

[roni]

I didn't say there isn't a God. I said revealed religion is bullshit. We all follow what our fathers teach us. That's a fact. Each of us is a product of our own upbringing. If there is a God, he's not going to judge anyone based on soemthing they all-in-all can't control (wich includes anything). This is why if there is a God, he wouldn't be inclined to judge at all. When you look at everything as a whole, and not assumeing that the interest of human beings is the center of the universe, you see there is nothing to judge, but rather just matter in motion. God doesn't care what we believe in (again, for the sake of argument, assuming there is a God) because he would be infinitely above any of it. Because of our own wants, we are under the impression that there is one, perfect moral judgment which should be followed by all. That's BULLSHIT! Each person wants something differant and is going to go after it. Some people pursue what they want by getting others to agree with them and help them in their pursuit. That's where the belief in ONE perfect judgment comes in and it's BULLSHIT! It's up to you, the individual, to decide what you value.

BTW: It is very cowardly for someone to insert an opinion, which is obviously
going to draw a rebuttal, only to leave the discussion . . . http://forum.bullshit.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif







HEY THERE I DO THINK that what tinkerbell said was a little stupid its pepole who say I WILL PRAY FOR YOU that make me sick!!! im a christian myself and i dont belive hitting pepole over the head with "your christian abbilties" is a way to get any point across except for the one that your a total dumb ass!!!! i think that revealed religion means an expeirence in wich a god wethor "alla" or "jesus" reveals to you a revaltion such as gifts of spirtuality like prophesy or healing or what not and mybe not even that like when a god bestows a spirtual moment on you like a sense of repentance or forgivness and such i think thats what the defintion ment i mean im probablly totally wrong but thats what i got out of your argument with tinkerbell!
olright i cant spell but i do have ok thoughts i think

[Josh]

People don't follow a revealed religion because God revealed himself to them or because of an experience they have. They do so because their momies and dadies tell them to. And, if not that, then they believe in it because they like the idea and WANT to believe in it.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

This is so much Bullshit! :mad: I'm a Christian and I didn't choose to be one because my momie and dadie are! I believe there is some form of higher power weather there be a God or something else! I think this is really annoying! :mad: How can you say that someone choose what they want to beleive in just because they're parents beleive in the same way!?!? Everyone has the right to beleive in what they want! How can someone like you have the right to tell them they are wrong for beleiveing in anything?????

[Beavis]

This is for the person who startted me talking about religion. First of all GOD is the most high God. If you read in the Bible you would know that. You shouldn't have to see him to believe in him. Do you see love I don't think so you believe in love just as GOD. Well I'm going to stop talking about the King Of KIngs and the Lord of Lords. I will just have to pray for you. :p
Wow...I'm suprised to see that on bullforums

[Josh]

how can you tell me I'M wrong to believe in anything?

time to put the nail in the coffin . . .

if we as matter were created by a "higher power," then I don't believe in anyone who says he has a will and will judge us accordingly. You need to get it through your head that if there is a point to the universe, it is not that the chemicals in the human brain register as "happy" instead of "sad." If God had something to say, we would ALL hear it, and we would not be so different in opinion. There are people who are not introduced to the bible. Will God punnish them? NO! because we all do based on our upbringing and our experiences. We are just part of a chain reaction. we are matter in motion. there is nothing to judge.

[Josh]

and, by the way my dear tinkerbell. I do hope you are staying tuned. I do hope you keep in mind the last thing you said to me the next time you're taking your anual glance into your "holy book." I'd like you to look at a favorite passage of mine. -Matthew 6:5-

[raider red]

for those who are Christians, please don't make a joke of your reply by using unintelligible language. Jesus was always linguistically plain spoken. I wonder if anyone, who thinks the Jesus was a liar ever searched the pages of scripture and realized that Jesus was and is not a liar. The scriptures point out that Jesus died and reappeared to those who could testify to his appearance. He didn't pass out on the cross, and anyone who thinks he could've, why don't you go through his plight and see if you could come back.

[raider red]

I've read the bible more times than years any of you have been alive. That's not the point. The point is that to believe in it you are not taking God's word for it, but rather the people who wrote it, and more comonly, your parents and their parents. Religion doesn't keep people under control. Look at what it's done to the middle east and tell me that religion keeps people in line. Laws, however, do. The majority has a way of saying to the rest of the world that if you don't like the way we run things then you will die, because there are more of us, and we will fight for it. That is what keeps everybody on the same page. Of course, the majority wants things to be peaceful, which is why the laws in most countries support a peaceful comunity. Religion just makes people think that the laws don't matter because there is something greater than people, and that something's will is what we should follow. Then, what the foolish don't realize, is that that "higher will" is just the word of a few 2,000 year old politicians who, like most politicians, would lie to get the majority on their side.

read the bible not as a text to critique, but as a love letter to you and you will be changed. Don't reply with a preconceived thought, but read it please!

[Josh]

You don't know what Jesus did. you know what his buddies told a church full of liers and hypocrites.

The ideas I've read from the bible are very . . . nice. but they are not of a "Godly" source.

btw: I am inviting anyone who reads this and wants to discuss it with me directly to aim me at "booskosch"

[COLLEGE DROPOUT]

Im Just A Dumb Hater I Guess. But There Is No God. He's Just An Imaginary Friend For Adults.

[ass]

get a life

[Josh]

I still haven't gone as far as to say there is no God. But, hey, Bill Gates is a college dropout, too.

[badger69]

man there is an afterlife there isn;'t just death but the christians being ha ha ha. Have any of you even read the bible well i took the liberty to it flawed in so many and it contradicts itselfs numerous times. One of the first flaws is that christians had to set the calender back 12 yeah for it even to make sense. Back in olden times when scientists were killed because they didn't follow the teaching of the church. The church claimed to have been told from god and the chruches message must be right but when they got proved wronge aswell as many of the christian beliefs they realised that the old testament was fuked! so what do they do try and right a new that isn't as flawed and they still failed. When seomthing is proved completely wronge like the world not being flat people normally get over that idea and move on but why is christianity still going after it was proved wronge centuries ago everyone seemed to forgot that they patched up some of the holes with the new testament but still failed abismaly this is my 2 cents.

If this offends u christians don't worry u can have any opinion you want but u aint having mine

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

How can u say there is no afterlife? How do u know? No one does! There are many different beleifs in the Christianity religion. Some beleive in Holy Trinity and others may not. Also, NASA has prove that certain things in the Bible has been true. The world is BEHIND one day in its orbit and the bible has accounted for that day. One day God stopped the Earth. So you conclude what you want from that. :mad:

[Josh]

That doesn't prove anything. It just helps you believe in what you want to believe. define "after life". does it mean when your body dies, you don't? well, what are you? you are a body. the only thing that makes you think that you are one whole individual is your memories and senses. it's all chemical and that chemical action eventually ends.

[badger69]

when i say there is an afterlife i don't believe in reancarnation it is just peace at one in death and if were not at peace & satisfied with ur life u enter a realm of long nothingness until what u are not satisfied with is taken away

[silvery moon]

This is so much Bullshit! :mad: I'm a Christian and I didn't choose to be one because my momie and dadie are! I believe there is some form of higher power weather there be a God or something else! I think this is really annoying! :mad: How can you say that someone choose what they want to beleive in just because they're parents beleive in the same way!?!? Everyone has the right to beleive in what they want! How can someone like you have the right to tell them they are wrong for beleiveing in anything?????

It's not Bullshit! From the moment you were born your momie and dadie kept telling you about God, Jezus and the bible.. It's all about "being used to something" .. You only learned one side of the story; the "there is a God" side.. If all you ever heard was "there is no God, instead there is a winged pig flying through the universe" you would've believed in a winged pig!
You know why? Because you're a human! You have a brain, that actually works as some kind of system! It's not like you know EVERYTHING, you only know what others have been telling you... They FEED your brain... And your brain can be fed either with "there is a God" or with "God does not exist" ...
You once believed in Santa Claus, didn't you? Just because your parents told you so, right? But, one day, when they told you there really was no santa claus, you suddenly believed that there wasn't..
The thing is that people just don't want to accept who they are and what they are.. They want to be more; greater, better, more special.. But they're not.. They're just living things that will die someday and dissapear.. It's cruel! I know it is! Cruel, very cruel! That's why people try to ease the pain by making up afterlife.. a nice, pretty lil place where you'll meet all your relatives and friends and where there's no war or pain or misary... Keep dreaming, if it helps..

[Josh]

when i say there is an afterlife i don't believe in reancarnation it is just peace at one in death and if were not at peace & satisfied with ur life u enter a realm of long nothingness until what u are not satisfied with is taken away

Once again. What do you mean "U enter . . . "? what are "u"? you are a human body and brain which dies. and once you die, that's just it. you're dead. it's not good but it's not bad. you're not happy or sad. it IS peace. your "satisfaction" is no longer a concern.

[Amanda]

Who cares who believes in what? I don't care what you believe in, and you shouldn't care what I believe in. By the way Josh, the whole mommy and daddy thing is a bit over the top. My mother was raised Baptist and my father a Catholic......5 children........one child,(me) that goes to church, another child Atheiest, the other three, who fucking knows? Not all families work the same. Personally, I believe there is a higher power, GOD, LORD, etc... the point? I don't think it matters what religion you are, I think He's all of them, so yes, you are right Josh, who's to say which one is right? I think all of them.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

It's not Bullshit! From the moment you were born your momie and dadie kept telling you about God, Jezus and the bible.. It's all about "being used to something" .. You only learned one side of the story; the "there is a God" side.. If all you ever heard was "there is no God, instead there is a winged pig flying through the universe" you would've believed in a winged pig!
You know why? Because you're a human! You have a brain, that actually works as some kind of system! It's not like you know EVERYTHING, you only know what others have been telling you... They FEED your brain... And your brain can be fed either with "there is a God" or with "God does not exist" ...
You once believed in Santa Claus, didn't you? Just because your parents told you so, right? But, one day, when they told you there really was no santa claus, you suddenly believed that there wasn't..
The thing is that people just don't want to accept who they are and what they are.. They want to be more; greater, better, more special.. But they're not.. They're just living things that will die someday and dissapear.. It's cruel! I know it is! Cruel, very cruel! That's why people try to ease the pain by making up afterlife.. a nice, pretty lil place where you'll meet all your relatives and friends and where there's no war or pain or misary... Keep dreaming, if it helps..
:mad: Just for your info my dad and mom beleive different and I beleive different from them so how can you say I beleive in God because they do?

[Whowhatwhenwherewhy]

Preach on Josh. Josh is the only one of you presenting any semblance of a reasonable argument for one side or the other.

If you can't even spell "believe" properly, maybe you should be reading a dictionary instead of a Bible. I tend to dismiss anyone that says "u" instead of you immediately.

I believe in a higher power, a God I guess, simply because I believe there are too many coincidences in life, everything works too well and is too balanced to just be an accident. This is just my personal belief, I have no scientific evidence to back me up, and maybe I only believe this because I refuse to believe life is so futile. I don't have any desire to examine this too deeply because there are no concrete answers.

What Josh was saying about parents totally applies. Most people get their religion, denomination, moral system from their parents. Born-again Christians are a different story, but they are few and far between in relation to the Bible belt God-fearing lifelong churchgoers. Just because 2 or 3 of your siblings decided not to be a Christian doesn't mean your parents didn't exert any influence on the situation. Look at you... it rubbed off on you right? You've been blindly believing in God the way you blindly believed in Santa Claus until you were proven wrong - because your parents told you that was how it is. My parents abandoned their religion, most of my extended family too, and as a result not one of us goes to church. So yeah, your parents beliefs do translate into your own in the majority of cases.

God is just a way of explaining the inexplicable. The earth's orbit changed? Hmm could it be due to an ever-evolving galaxy full of possibilities and the fact that we don't yet know all there is to know about it... or could it be that God reached a giant hand down and just put the brakes on earth for a day. One of these things just doesn't belong. You decide.

I have no problem with faith, I have a problem with blind faith and the kind of ignorance that causes people to put :mad: when their flimsy belief structure is questioned.

You keep saying everyone "has a right" to "beleieeiieeve" in whatever they want. Respect Josh's right to do the same, and have enough confidence in the strength of your beliefs that you don't have a fit every time someone says "God doesn't exist".

P.S. I think the level of intelligence in these replies speaks volumes about a lot of people. Anyone that can't type in complete sentences and doesn't give a rats ass what sort of light this portrays them in is either:
1) A kid. In this case your parents handing down their beliefs is an even more likely scenario.
2) Ignorant. In this case your opinion really doesn't matter at all, nor will it ever. Ignorance is bliss, so be happy and pipe down.

I have a new business idea. A Bible that converts all "thou's" to "U's" and throws in a couple LOLs per paragraph. Wish me luck.

[Whowhatwhenwherewhy]

read the bible not as a text to critique, but as a love letter to you and you will be changed. Don't reply with a preconceived thought, but read it please!

A love letter full of pain, agony, and needless suffering, which has brought 2000 more years of pain, agony and needless suffering via war after war after war after war after war. If I got a love letter like that, somebody would be catching some heat.

Josh big ups on your sig... an MC named Big L had a line like that in one of his songs.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

Preach on Josh. Josh is the only one of you presenting any semblance of a reasonable argument for one side or the other.

If you can't even spell "believe" properly, maybe you should be reading a dictionary instead of a Bible. I tend to dismiss anyone that says "u" instead of you immediately.

I believe in a higher power, a God I guess, simply because I believe there are too many coincidences in life, everything works too well and is too balanced to just be an accident. This is just my personal belief, I have no scientific evidence to back me up, and maybe I only believe this because I refuse to believe life is so futile. I don't have any desire to examine this too deeply because there are no concrete answers.

What Josh was saying about parents totally applies. Most people get their religion, denomination, moral system from their parents. Born-again Christians are a different story, but they are few and far between in relation to the Bible belt God-fearing lifelong churchgoers. Just because 2 or 3 of your siblings decided not to be a Christian doesn't mean your parents didn't exert any influence on the situation. Look at you... it rubbed off on you right? You've been blindly believing in God the way you blindly believed in Santa Claus until you were proven wrong - because your parents told you that was how it is. My parents abandoned their religion, most of my extended family too, and as a result not one of us goes to church. So yeah, your parents beliefs do translate into your own in the majority of cases.

God is just a way of explaining the inexplicable. The earth's orbit changed? Hmm could it be due to an ever-evolving galaxy full of possibilities and the fact that we don't yet know all there is to know about it... or could it be that God reached a giant hand down and just put the brakes on earth for a day. One of these things just doesn't belong. You decide.

I have no problem with faith, I have a problem with blind faith and the kind of ignorance that causes people to put :mad: when their flimsy belief structure is questioned.

You keep saying everyone "has a right" to "beleieeiieeve" in whatever they want. Respect Josh's right to do the same, and have enough confidence in the strength of your beliefs that you don't have a fit every time someone says "God doesn't exist".

P.S. I think the level of intelligence in these replies speaks volumes about a lot of people. Anyone that can't type in complete sentences and doesn't give a rats ass what sort of light this portrays them in is either:
1) A kid. In this case your parents handing down their beliefs is an even more likely scenario.
2) Ignorant. In this case your opinion really doesn't matter at all, nor will it ever. Ignorance is bliss, so be happy and pipe down.

I have a new business idea. A Bible that converts all "thou's" to "U's" and throws in a couple LOLs per paragraph. Wish me luck.
ok! Why are you focusing all of this angry on me? Yea sometimes I spell things wrong and don't check for it but who cares. And so the believe thing I don't really care.

[silvery moon]

People don't know everything, that's the point.. They know so little..
Yet they found ways to find out a lot more about their own planet and the universe, which I really appreciate; it's called science...
However, while people (in history, not nowadays, don't get me wrong) tried to discover more about life and started to prove a lot of Bullshit that the church had been telling everyone wrong, the church felt threatened and started torturing scientists just to make them shut up! That's awful, that's evil..
Nowadays, we still don't know everything.. And perhaps we never will..
But I think it's rather foolish to just guess and make up a story about some guy creating this planet in seven days or something like that... It's ignorant, indeed it is.. Why won't people just focus on the things we already know instead of making up Bullshit about things we don't know anything about?
Perhaps some of us just find the truth a little too boring..
But o well, I could tell people I don't care.. I could tell people that they could believe in whatever they wanted to believe... I would if religion wasn't so darn harmful and dangerous.. I mean, lots and lots of people have been murdered in the past, because they refused to believe in something.. And still, people are being murdered, because terrorists believe that Allah tells them to... I'm sorry, but that's just sick..
Ow and by the way, sorry about the bad english.. I'm dutch..

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

I always have a smart remark about everything but I have realize that I can't change the way people feel. Oh and by the way about the umm killing the sciencist thing thats why in history we had two Great Awakings! This will be my last remark about this subject unless I strongly disagree about the subject. God Bless and have a nice life!!!:)

[Josh]

Who cares who believes in what? I don't care what you believe in, and you shouldn't care what I believe in. By the way Josh, the whole mommy and daddy thing is a bit over the top. My mother was raised Baptist and my father a Catholic......5 children........one child,(me) that goes to church, another child Atheiest, the other three, who fucking knows? Not all families work the same. Personally, I believe there is a higher power, GOD, LORD, etc... the point? I don't think it matters what religion you are, I think He's all of them, so yes, you are right Josh, who's to say which one is right? I think all of them.

If you don't care then why are you dicussing this?

[Dante]

Religion Is Fucking Gay!!! U All Love Dude Eggs!!! Fuck Off U Cunts!!! :d

[badger69]

How can u say there is no afterlife? How do u know? No one does! There are many different beleifs in the Christianity religion. Some beleive in Holy Trinity and others may not. Also, NASA has prove that certain things in the Bible has been true. The world is BEHIND one day in its orbit and the bible has accounted for that day. One day God stopped the Earth. So you conclude what you want from that. :mad:

I am normal thankyou i agree all i was saying josh is that thats what i believe happens as i am normal quotes how do we know know what we are when we go there i have been to knowhere but life has found a way to stop people who are alive knowing what they are when you are there you see whats around you not yourself for that ruins it all if people aren't surprised people won't fear death than death will be more common

[Josh]

I am normal thankyou i agree all i was saying josh is that thats what i believe happens as i am normal quotes how do we know know what we are when we go there i have been to knowhere but life has found a way to stop people who are alive knowing what they are when you are there you see whats around you not yourself for that ruins it all if people aren't surprised people won't fear death than death will be more common
um . . . What the fuck are you talking about?

[The Great One]

Bibliolaters claim that the Bible is inerrant in every detail, in matters of history, science, geography, chronology, etc., as well as faith and practice. It is a claim that has won wide acceptance among fundamentalist Christians, but, as is true of most zealotic tributes that have been paid to the Bible, it has no basis in fact. As past articles in TSR have clearly shown to anyone who really wants to know the truth, the Bible is riddled with mistakes. Many of those mistakes were scientific ones.
The creation account in Genesis divided time into days and the days into evening and morning for three days before the sun was even created (1:1-19). "There was evening and there was morning," we are told, "one day... a second day... a third day," but as any astronomer knows, evening (night) and morning (daylight) result from the earth's rotation with respect to the sun. With no sun, there would have certainly been evening or night, but there could have been no morning.

On the fourth day when God created the "two great lights" (the sun and the moon), he created the stars too. This creation of the rest of the universe was treated by the Genesis writer(s) as if it were little more than an afterthought: "he made the stars also" (v:16). To the prescientific mind that wrote this, it probably made sense. To him (her), the earth was undoubtedly the center of the universe, but today we know better. The solar system of which earth is only a tiny part is itself an infinitesimal speck in the universe. Surely, then, the creation of the stars would not have occurred so quickly and suddenly if six days were needed to create the world. Scientists now know that the creation of stars is an evolutionary process that is still ongoing. Matter coalesces; stars ignite, shine, and eventually burn out or explode. From the existence of heavy elements in our solar system, astronomers generally agree that it formed from debris left over from a supernova that occurred billions of years ago. The prescientific Genesis writer knew none of this, however, and that is why he viewed the creation of the universe as an Elohistic afterthought. No modern, scientifically-educated writer would have made that mistake.

The creation of the stars is the subject not only of scientific error in the Bible but also of textual contradiction. Clearly, the Genesis writer(s) said that God made the stars on the fourth day (1:16). By then, the earth had been created, light (somehow without the sun or stars) had been created, the gathering together of dry land had occurred, and vegetation had been created. One could surely say that by then the foundations of the world had been laid, yet Yahweh Elohim presumably told Job that the stars already existed when the foundations of the earth were laid:


Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? Declare if thou hast understanding. Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest? Or who stretched the line upon it? Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened? Or who laid the cornerstone there-of, when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy? (38:4-7).

Granted the "singing of the morning stars" is clearly a poetical expression, but that does not explain away the problem. How could it be said in any sense, poetical or otherwise, that "the morning stars sang together" at a time when stars didn't even exist? Obviously, then, the Genesis writer(s) and the author of Job had different perceptions of when stars were created.
The Genesis writer(s) didn't understand the nature of darkness either. He said that God created light (somehow before the sun and stars were made) and then "divided the light from the darkness" (1:3-4). Light, however, is not something that can be separated from darkness. Light is an electromagnetic radiation from an energy source like the sun or stars, and darkness is merely the absence of light. Without light, there will automatically be darkness. No god is needed to separate or divide light from darkness. We know that today; the prescientific Genesis writer(s) didn't.

The Genesis writer's genetic knowledge was no better than his understanding of astronomy. In chapter 30, he told of Jacob's scheme to increase his wealth while he was still in the employ of his father-in-law Laban. The two had reached an agreement whereby Jacob would be given all striped, spotted, and speckled lambs and kids subsequently born in Laban's flocks. Laban then removed all the striped, spotted, and speckled animals from his flocks and put them in his sons' care at a three-day distance from the flock Jacob attended. Not to be outsmarted, Jacob devised a plan:


Then Jacob took fresh rods of poplar and almond and plane, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the rods. He set the rods that he had peeled in front of the flocks in the troughs, that is, the watering places, where the flocks came to drink. And since they bred when they came to drink, the flocks bred in front of the rods, and so the flocks produced young that were striped, speckled, and spotted (30:37-39, NRSV).

The editors of The New American Bible were reputable enough to affix a frankly honest footnote to this passage:

Jacob's stratagem was based on the widespread notion among simple people that visual stimuli can have prenatal effects on the offspring of breeding animals. Thus, the rods on which Jacob had whittled stripes or bands or chevron marks were thought to cause the female goats that looked at them to bear kids with lighter-colored marks on their dark hair, while the gray ewes were thought to bear lambs with dark marks on them simply by visual crossbreeding with the dark goats.

We know today that the color characteristics of animals is purely a matter of genetics, so a modern, scientifically-educated person would never write anything as obviously superstitious as this tale of Jacob's prosperity. The Genesis writer(s), however, knew nothing about the science of genetics, so to him the story undoubtedly made good sense.
One thing the Bible definitely is not is inerrant in matters of science.

[The Great One]

everyone here is a pussy. y don't yall live and let die? Who gives a fuck about the truth. if we knew there was a god or wasnt the world would come to an end. if there wasnt a god then everyone would probaly kill each other if there was then everyone would kill themselves to see this god.its because of these not knowings the life goes on everyday. so once again who gives a fuck. sure as hell not me peace yall

[Josh]

everyone here is a pussy. y don't yall live and let die? Who gives a fuck about the truth. if we knew there was a god or wasnt the world would come to an end. if there wasnt a god then everyone would probaly kill each other if there was then everyone would kill themselves to see this god.its because of these not knowings the life goes on everyday. so once again who gives a fuck. sure as hell not me peace yall

You apparently care enought to copy and paste all that shit (without quoting a source, I might add) and then rant about how everyone elses opinion is stupid. If you didn't care, we wouldn't be talking right now. I'll bet it takes a real hardass to say that shit online, huh?

[klauspj]

I just stepped on this site for the first time and find the whole discussion on the "religion topic" quite fascinating. In my opinion however, it comes to often to questioning the "opposite" attitude (e.g. science and rational arguments vs. faith) instead of questioning how one side may enrich the other.

I´m among those who´ve alway been decidedly atheist, feeling that religion wasn´t anything else but a poor metaphor for anything men aren´t able to explain rationally and that they need to handle their otherwise meaningless existence. How to live a decent life without "meaning" (in a transcendental sense)? Not at all easy! I admit that I always felt somehow proud for taking this challenge with all its consecuences (I recomend "The myth of Sisyphos" by Albert Camus for everybody who´s really interested in the subject).

However, the flaw was, that I always looked at religion form the "outside", and of course the language and metaphors of "revealed religion" are easily proven wrong by a rigorously rational or scientific approach. Only when I started to get a little deeper into modern theology, I found out how much rationality, science and critical thinking may be found within religion itself ... for purely historic reasons mostly in the christian world, but also in any other cultural sphere. My personal belief hasn´t changed a lot, but I felt ASHAMED for the naive understanding of religion that had always inspired me a feeling of superiority compared to those people "who just believe what their mommie´s and daddie´s told them" (as quoted several times in this discussion).

Of course, socialization matters! Of course, there is an abuse of religion by not-at-all transcendental interests! There are even entire schools of religious ideology created for the only purpose of exercising power (within christianity and many other religions). Of course, religious sources are rooted in history and mix up with explaining fisical facts that later on are proven wrong!

But nonetheless, the most important source of religion, i feel, is the spiritual experience of people. (transcendental? or psychological / biochemical fenomena? Something that is revealed to us? Or something that lies within ourselves? The answer decides on our being religious, or "just" spiritual, or mere materialists, but this is truely a question of faith, not science! ... and i feel that my belief as atheist is nothing more "rationally justified" than the faith of an open-minded christian).

What makes the whole thing so complicated, is the point that spiritual experiences are made by individuals, and there won´t be two of them who experience the same. Probably, it can´t even be communicated properly without being distorted in its very essence. So what to do when, on the other hand, some kind of creating "communion" among people (love, respect, shared values / or social cohesion, to use a more sociological term for the scientists among us) is recognized as an important "mission" ... which in fact might be accepted as an important issue as well from a religious point of view (if you prefer to rely on Jesus) or from a more rational, philosophic one (go as far back as to Spinozas "Ethics" or Hobbes "Leviathan").

So, when it comes to communicating spiritual "knowledge", to the attempt of bringing people together on a common ground, there is no other way than using metaphors that necessarily have their own dynamics and gain their own "reality". For critical (religious or scientific) thought, the "form" of religion is just the surface of somehting that can´t be properly expressed, and thus, there is just no point of scientifically questioning religion by questioning its literal experessions. And even for the simpler minds (without lacking respect for them!) who take these expressions more literally, they may catalize a kind of spirituality that many people would never have accessed by their own without some kind of "guidance". Sadly, the positive intention of illuminating people and manipulation in order to exercise power can´t be easily distinguished.

In the end, without a religious belief of my own, I FEEL very close to any kind of faith that fosters an identification with mankind as a whole (without having a rational argument for that). Jesus might be a good reference for this attitude, although not the only one. And although for me personally it doesn´t matter if he´s the "Son of God", an outstanding historic figure, or just a myth, I have no problem to accept that for other people it DOES matter.

If you want to enrich yourself, don´t focus on judgements, but instead on questions. My personal experience is that we can learn the more from each other the more our attitudes towards faith differ. And if you meet somebody too narrow-minded to enter into this challenge ... still don´t judge, you still might learn something, although the other one doesn´t.

Well, time to finish ... I´ve written such an endless sermon that probably no-one will read entirely anyway ... bye for now.

[Josh]

read the bible not as a text to critique, but as a love letter to you and you will be changed. Don't reply with a preconceived thought, but read it please!

Yeah. It's a real love letter. Up untill about page 7.

[Hayley719]

all of this is a hoax.

[josh_sucks]

Fuck off you 16 year old panty waste! You barely know how to read, and you've read the Bible more times than any of us? Who the fuck do you think you are? Your Martial Arts master should slap the shit out of you. If you were a real student of any Martial Art than you would never speak the way you do, but you obviously go to a school that does not teach respect, morals, or anything good. I beleive you suck!! As for a response, don't bother, because your words suck and you mean nothing. Everytime you write something you open what little brain you have, and we don't need to hear it anymore. I won't be responding, at least to you, you shit-eater!

[Wake up]

hi i have jst recently become a member purley due to the fact that this is such bull shit- in order for there to be a god everyone should be kind and respectful of others thoughts and feelings!! your argueing over a presence that dose not want to be argued over!! everywhere in the world there is different ways to pray to the same god there is not jst one systematic way!!but the most outragous view ive read is that god is not force upon us!! do u really believe if the concept of god was not introduced to us at an early age half of us would even believe in it-of course not unless of course were fearful because of something we did and are looking for forgiveness from someone or the fact that we are weak in character and require an "invisable best friend" to share our feelings with. dont get me wrong i dont think theres anything wrong wit believing in something that brings out the best in you bt to fight over a being that no-one can prove- well thats jst childish and you are not abiding by "his rules". take a moment a think about it ( and not the thought of he really exists or not but the consequences of such strong beliefs)????

[fother]

i can c god es in my college

[this_is_bullshit]

Since there is no religion page, yet, I will use the politics page, instead.

Revelation, or revealed religion, is defined in Webster's New World Dictionary as: "God's disclosure to man of Himself." This should read, "God's alleged disclosure to man of himself." For unless God reveals to each of us individually that a particular religion is truly His disclosure to us of Himself, then, by believing that religion, we are not taking His word for it, but we are instead putting our belief in the person or institution telling us it is so. This is what we are doing when we believe in any revealed religion, and that's all Christianity is. It's a revealed religion like many others such as Islam and Judaism. Revealed religion gets dangerous however, when it crosses over the line into politics. This is the admitted goal of the Christian Coalition. God allegedly revealed to Pat Robertson and his Coalition, that He wants them to take over America and eventually the world with "His Word," so the laws of the nations will mirror the laws in the Bible, which, if you know what's in the Bible, is terrifying. This, too, is what the Ayatollah's goal was, only his "revealed word of God" was the Koran, an other revelation. Are we to believe Pat when he says the Bible is revelation of God's Word?

BTW for the records Josh, it is spelled Qu'Ran, for a person who seems to wish that others think he is well versed in all things, you should really learn to spell the major words & such correctly.

[God]

Maybe God knows
www.godserv.com

[this_is_bullshit]

Maybe God knows
www.godserv.com

Well, let's see, 63.247.70.141 is the I.P. address for www.godserv.com & the domain name traces back to California, to a company called cheapnames.com, a domain sales service, which seemingly is run out of a guy's house, judging by the unprofessional recording I got when trying to contact them, seeing as the creator of www.godserv.com was smart & attempted to hide his/her email & name & such, which God would not do, he would put down a name, as there is nothing to hide from, if the site is truly owned & opped by God Himself.

Secondly, the hosting service locates back to Newman, Georgia. Another funny thing, honestly, of all places to host a site, I am pretty sure God would choose somewhere better than Newman GA. I could be wrong, also, do you think God would cut corners & go to cheapnames.com for a name, to save expense? For Pete's sake! This is God we are talking about here, I don't think money would be a problem.

Here is a copy & paste of what I could find on the domain name: www.godserv.com & it's I.P. Address: 63.247.70.141



Reverse DNS for 63.247.70.141
Generated by www.DNSstuff.com

Location: United States [City: Newnan, Georgia]

Preparation:
The reverse DNS entry for an IP is found by reversing the IP, adding it to "in-addr.arpa", and looking up the PTR record.
So, the reverse DNS entry for 63.247.70.141 is found by looking up the PTR record for
141.70.247.63.in-addr.arpa.
All DNS requests start by asking the root servers, and they let us know what to do next.
See How Reverse DNS Lookups Work for more information.

How I am searching:
Asking i.root-servers.net for 141.70.247.63.in-addr.arpa PTR record:
i.root-servers.net says to go to epazote.arin.net. (zone: 63.in-addr.arpa.)
Asking epazote.arin.net. for 141.70.247.63.in-addr.arpa PTR record:
epazote.arin.net [192.41.162.32] says to go to DNS1.GNAX.NET. (zone: 70.247.63.in-addr.arpa.)
Asking DNS1.GNAX.NET. for 141.70.247.63.in-addr.arpa PTR record: Reports that no PTR records exist [from 209.51.128.17].

Answer:
No PTR records exist for 63.247.70.141. [Neg TTL=3600 seconds]

Details:
DNS1.GNAX.NET. (an authoritative nameserver for 70.247.63.in-addr.arpa., which is in charge of the reverse DNS for 63.247.70.141)
says that there are no PTR records for 63.247.70.141.

To get reverse DNS set up for 63.247.70.141, you need to speak to your Internet provider. You could also
check with engineering@gnax.net., who is in charge of the 70.247.63.in-addr.arpa. zone.

Note that all Internet accessible hosts are expected to have a reverse DNS entry (per RFC1912 2.1),
and many mailservers (such as AOL) will likely block E-mail from mailservers with no reverse DNS entry.
To see the reverse DNS traversal, to make sure that all DNS servers are reporting the correct results, you can Click Here.

Also, here is the domain name registration information, that was hidden to keep us from finding out who is spoofing this site off as God's own:



WHOIS results for godserv.com
Generated by www.DNSstuff.com

Registrar: ENOM, INC.
Status: ACTIVE [the normal status for a domain when it is unlocked]
Dates: Created 22-oct-2004 Updated 22-sep-2005 Expires 22-oct-2006
DNS Servers: NS1.GODSERV.COM NS2.GODSERV.COM

I was referred to whois.enom.com; I'm looking it up there.





Using 0 day old cached answer (or, you can get fresh results).
Hiding E-mail address (you can get results with the E-mail address).


Registration Service Provided By: NameCheap.com
Contact: *******@NameCheap.com
Visit: http://www.namecheap.com/

Domain name: godserv.com

Registrant Contact:
WhoisGuard
WhoisGuard Protected *****************************************@whoisgua rd.com)
+1.6613102107
Fax: +1.6613102107
8939 S. Sepulveda Blvd
8939 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Westchester, CA 90045
US

Administrative Contact:
WhoisGuard
WhoisGuard Protected *****************************************@whoisgua rd.com)
+1.6613102107
Fax: +1.6613102107
8939 S. Sepulveda Blvd
8939 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Westchester, CA 90045
US

Technical Contact:
WhoisGuard
WhoisGuard Protected *****************************************@whoisgua rd.com)
+1.6613102107
Fax: +1.6613102107
8939 S. Sepulveda Blvd
8939 S. Sepulveda Blvd
Westchester, CA 90045
US

Status: Active

Name Servers:
ns1.godserv.com
ns2.godserv.com

Creation date: 22 Oct 2004 05:11:25
Expiration date: 22 Oct 2006 05:11:25

Whois-Services: *************************@whois-services.com


The data in this whois database is provided to you for information
purposes only, that is, to assist you in obtaining information about or
related to a domain name registration record. We make this information
available "as is," and do not guarantee its accuracy. By submitting a
whois query, you agree that you will use this data only for lawful
purposes and that, under no circumstances will you use this data to: (1)
enable high volume, automated, electronic processes that stress or load
this whois database system providing you this information; or (2) allow,
enable, or otherwise support the transmission of mass unsolicited,
commercial advertising or solicitations via direct mail, electronic
mail, or by telephone. The compilation, repackaging, dissemination or
other use of this data is expressly prohibited without prior written
consent from us. The registrar of record is eNom. We reserve the right
to modify these terms at any time. By submitting this query, you agree
to abide by these terms.
Version 6.3 4/3/2002


'Nuff said, I doubt that God Himself wrote this or inspired this, but you never know, God is Almighty, He could speak into all of our heads at once if He so wished, but I really don't think He would make a site, then hide the contact info & all of that, then have an email address to ask Him things, when all you need to do to ask Him anything, is speak it in your mind, as He knows all.

It's called praying.

[Zzyzx]

I don't see how you can have an "About Religion" board and expect anything but a futile debate over the existence of God. It's never going to end, people.

I consider myself agnostic. I don't not believe in God.

Honestly, I don't feel like I'm missing anything in my life by not having a definite faith, either. I am no less moral, caring, aware, or worthwhile than anyone else. Shame on those of you (you in general, not this board) who think so or who feel the need to take pity on me. It's really none of your business, anyway. I'm confident that I'll figure out the ways of the world on my own, eventually.

Neither side is going to convince the other of anything. Let it go.

Amen. Let's eat.

[Mourningstar]

Looking at the debate here, I find myself wondering about us as people. Why are we all so certain that we know the truth and that other people are wrong?

I think dsepite the flame war and the insults and the crassness here, there have been a few good points.

Obviously, the astrological argument- that day and night, morning and evening are created before the sun, moon and stars in Genesis- is a powerful argument against a literal interpretation of the bible.

I could add to the attack on the Bible's validity by pointing out that book one and book two of Genesis contradict each other in the order of creation. Read them carefully and compare when each book says things were created.

I could also point out that the first two books are written in different styles, suggesting two seperate authors (One author refers to god as 'elohim' or godhead- which is normally translated in modern bibles as simply 'god', the other author uses the word 'adonai' or lord in the classic Jewish tradition of never refering to god directly.).

The problem with pointing these things out is that those people who already are open to question the validity of the bible will find these arguements strengthen their resolve.

Those people who believe the bible to be the undisputed word of god will believe that this is either wrong, meant to test their faith or simply one of the mysteries of god that man was not meant to know.

Either way, I will have made no progress with the vast majority of the people speaking. So to put it bluntly, I am not speaking to you. I am speaking to people who are questioning- who don't think that they have all the answers. I think that those people are wiser than you or I will likely ever be.

[Mourningstar]

I think that Josh made a good point. People have fixated on the parent half of his argument and ignored the actual meat of what he said. Christianity, and nearly every other officially sanctioned and recognised religion in the world is a revealed religion.

This means that according to that religion, God (or whatever you call him/her/it) revealed himself and his teachings to a person who then told the people. The bible has a number of different people in this position throughout history, because apparently people kept needing reminders.

Josh has pointed out that the vast majority of people who follow a religion do not claim that god has revealed himself (or itself or herself, see above) to them personally. They trust the word of some authority. Josh likes to point to the parents at this point, but the Pope, the Bishop of Canterbury, the local Zen instructor, the local Native American Shaman or the Bible itself or the Koran (note: it has been published with several spellings and I happen to like the one that I can spell easily thank you.) all serve the same function.

In other words, Josh has accurately pointed out that most of you have never experienced the unconditional love of God in the personal way that you claim Jesus or Moses, or Buddha, Mohammed did. You are trusting your religious foundations to the experience of others.

I am not saying that this is bad, but it does bear considering.

[natacha666]

well, i agree with that we all have the right 2 believe in the shit we want to, even so people is crazy if ure gonna get like that on every ass crazy or somone who didnt reach mental sanity yet, ure gonna be very bussy being upset. Anyway, id like 2 talk about the church bullshit, have u people ever wondered who did write the bible?? Well the apostols did u know the jesus 12 apostoles that were with him on the last meal thing. But is pretty interesting that jesus gospel isnt there. The bullshiter church probably got it under keys and chains i guess that might be cos jesus words would really leave them in the middle of nowhere. It is such ap owerfull institution very hipocrith on my point of view, i think people knows about that. The important thing is love and that we believe, in the shit and the shape and name of god we want.

[natacha666]

I want to make something clear so its not misunderstood. When i say ass or crazy im not reffering anyone special, just in general. be honest i´ve never visited the forum and i only read one post .
Peace!!

[natacha666]

oh!! i missed the TO be honest and missunderstood ha =P

[itisi]

...
Can anyone possibly explain something to me? If it said in the Bible that we are not to worship or have any other Gods than the Lord and if we do we will be cast to depths of hell, does this mean, according to Christian philosophy, that people practising religions other than Christianity and worshipping other Gods will be knocking at the gates of Hell?

Tomi
well that's what started the crusades in the middle ages... against the infidels... sound familiar?
religion... *sigh*

[itisi]

Fuck off you 16 year old panty waste! You barely know how to read, and you've read the Bible more times than any of us? Who the fuck do you think you are? Your Martial Arts master should slap the shit out of you. If you were a real student of any Martial Art than you would never speak the way you do, but you obviously go to a school that does not teach respect, morals, or anything good. I beleive you suck!! As for a response, don't bother, because your words suck and you mean nothing. Everytime you write something you open what little brain you have, and we don't need to hear it anymore. I won't be responding, at least to you, you shit-eater!

you on the other hand sound very respectful though. so open for debate. please teach me your ways, o sensei. please.

[itisi]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Amanda
[Who cares who believes in what? I don't care what you believe in, and you shouldn't care what I believe in. By the way Josh, the whole mommy and daddy thing is a bit over the top. My mother was raised Baptist and my father a Catholic......5 children........one child,(me) that goes to church, another child Atheiest, the other three, who fucking knows? Not all families work the same. Personally, I believe there is a higher power, GOD, LORD, etc... the point? I don't think it matters what religion you are, I think He's all of them, so yes, you are right Josh, who's to say which one is right? I think all of them.]

If you don't care then why are you dicussing this?
sorry but that's a bull one-liner reply.
You tend to be anti-regilion (or at least anti-something). She tries to be in the middle ('peace') or tries not to care about what others think. If it is the last thing that could bother you, you can say so explicitly.

[normlman]

This is so much Bullshit! :mad: I'm a Christian and I didn't choose to be one because my momie and dadie are! I believe there is some form of higher power weather there be a God or something else! I think this is really annoying! :mad: How can you say that someone choose what they want to beleive in just because they're parents beleive in the same way!?!? Everyone has the right to beleive in what they want! How can someone like you have the right to tell them they are wrong for beleiveing in anything?????


...Thus the Game can begin. To play is simple: One merely follows one's true nature, which is beyond illusion or delusion. One strives for the perfection of character by fostering the spirit of effort. One defends the paths of truth, honoring the principles of etiquette and guarding against impetuous courage. One aquires merit by doing good works, seeking to discover new means and new companions with which to enjoy the quest. There is no enlightenment outside of oneself. One may play the Game or ignore it. It goes on forever, regardless.

[sucks to be you]

To the person who shot down the "I'll say a preyer for you" poster: THANK YOU!!! I'd do it myself but I'm kinda 6 pages too late for that. To everyone else, I say keep going. I find all sides of the discussion to be very healthy, even the dumbass coments just ass many will probably turn on me for saying this. The debate will always continue, there will always be people who follow their religion strongly and there will always be peole who don't, and it will go on and on until the day that someone comes along that can with out a doubt prove one side or the other, and I think that may be some time still. But the fact that you are here sharing your feeling is infinately better than the sick people out there with guns in their hands saying "Love jesus or I'll shoot!" just as an off the wall example. I for one am in the boat of being someone who was forcefed cristianity my whole life, raised Cathilic and it wasn't until I became an adult that I took it upon myself to not be a practicing Catholic. And i don't think that makes me a bad person, but I'd much rather live off of my own faith than one thats been handed down to me. And i respect anyone who challenges organized religion. Whats so bad about finding your own faith? Faith will always be a good thing. i only stand against the those who feel the need to force their own upon others; which in fact contradicts the very essence of what having faith is all about.

Do I believe in God, yep. Is it the same God as in most religions, maybe not. Do I believe in life after death, yep. Do I believe in realms beyond our own, yeppers. And Why do i believe in all the above? Simply because i think the world is a much more interesting place with it than without. Not because I'm afraid I'll go to hell if I don't. And not because I'm afraid of the wrath of God if I label myself and non-believer. So again, do I believe, yes, Do I worship, no. And do I think I'll go to hell for not dedicating my life to the worshig of God? I don't care. I'm not living for the quest of entering some perfect afterlife. A world that is all sweet and sunshine is not my idea of heaven anyways. Without pain and conflict and stuggle, there is no life. Its by getting through such hardships that we define ourselves and there can never be one single fine line between who is right and who is wrong. There is only opinion and in such there will always be differences. Just follow your own concience and stay true to your your own morals and faiths and you will find your own life much more fulfilling than trying to live up to the standards of anyone elses religion or bible.

[sucks to be you]

...Thus the Game can begin. To play is simple: One merely follows one's true nature, which is beyond illusion or delusion. One strives for the perfection of character by fostering the spirit of effort. One defends the paths of truth, honoring the principles of etiquette and guarding against impetuous courage. One aquires merit by doing good works, seeking to discover new means and new companions with which to enjoy the quest. There is no enlightenment outside of oneself. One may play the Game or ignore it. It goes on forever, regardless.

Amen. (I don't need to say more, but it won't let me say less.)

[scboyca]

lighten up. seriously. he isnt saying people are wrong by believing in what they want to believe in. you arent wrong either. but u said your a christian and u believe in god or some other higher power.... no, for you, its just god. not "another higher power".

im a fan of believing in what you want. so, if you believe, make sure you are researched in what you are devoting you life to, and if you dont believe... make sure you are ready to deal with the consequences if there is one.

leave it at that. move on. live your life.

[beelzebub]

Could we please stop believing in myths? I am so annoyed with people! You would think that after hundreds of years of science we would finally stop believing in our imaginary friends and letting the people who organize these religions control our minds and bodies.
People said in this conversation: "….can you see Love?" as if that proves the existence of God? (can see love but know its there ergo...cant see God…). I have never seen fairies or Santa or trolls or elves or the Easter bunnie or the tooth fairy. I guess they exist as well?
COME ON wake up and realize that THIS IS IT. We exist and that’s amazing. I can't explain it. I don’t think anyone can so just enjoy the mystery and stop trying to put it into explainable boxes! ;)

[round_eyed_bugger]

Actually we can see love. Lovestruck people have more of dopamine etc in their brains. So we can perceive love in some other way than just "in our hearts". However God has no similar proof for his/her/its existence. So he/she/it does not exist.
Quad Erat Demonstrandum.

[PointlessRambling]

All you people need to get a life. Stop arguing on a forum and go out into the world. Do not fight each other over mindless things. You will never be able to push your ideas on others.

[chainar1]

worst discussion about religion ever...

[boomstick]

worst discussion about religion ever...


Well are you really surprised? There are many ways one could go about talking about religion, but name calling isn't one way. If you want to have a good conversation on religion, you can't be immature about it and you need to respect what the other side believes. You can't be a smartass when its your time to speak, nor can you have some half-baked idea that is based off something you don't know too much about.

[LARK]

One thing in life is certain for us all and that is DEATH, we all fear it in some way so if you have religion that lets you think that there is Life after Death then what is wrong with that?
Every Religion has its right to beleive in what they perceive to be the after life and that is all good, but nobody has the right to push that religion onto anybody else. If i wanted to become a member of another religion then i would go to that religion, i dont push my religious beleifs onto others so why do they come to my house and approach me in the street and try and push their religion down my throat?
Alot of Religions seem to brainwash their members and worry more about making Money than preaching the word of god.
If every Religious Institution just kept to themselves and alowed anybody to come in without pushing it onto others then the world would be a much happier place to live in and alot of lives could be spared as most wars have been started due to Religious beleifs.:mad:

[PointlessRambling]

How do you know what is right and what is wrong? Who makes these moral decisions? Why is it that the world as a whole shares these common morals? What is the root belief or beliefs behind these ideas of good and evil/right and wrong? If God does not exist, are we our own creation? Where did the universe come from? Atoms, and molecules. These are material things that had to of been established at one point. What was that point? How can something material come from an absence of resource? This is my daily ramble. Feel free to tear it apart. :D

[freakazoid]

worst discussion about religion ever...

Thunder and lightening...You sound like God. Are you him? Ahhh, her?

[Josh]

I'm glad that so many of you are so Christian. Now you can forgive me? (tongue-in-cheeck)

[PointlessRambling]

You're glad that so many of us are so Christian? I never knew someone could be so Christian. hmm... Ok then peace

[PointlessRambling]

It's not Bullshit! From the moment you were born your momie and dadie kept telling you about God, Jezus and the bible.. It's all about "being used to something" .. You only learned one side of the story; the "there is a God" side.. If all you ever heard was "there is no God, instead there is a winged pig flying through the universe" you would've believed in a winged pig!
You know why? Because you're a human! You have a brain, that actually works as some kind of system! It's not like you know EVERYTHING, you only know what others have been telling you... They FEED your brain... And your brain can be fed either with "there is a God" or with "God does not exist" ...
You once believed in Santa Claus, didn't you? Just because your parents told you so, right? But, one day, when they told you there really was no santa claus, you suddenly believed that there wasn't..
The thing is that people just don't want to accept who they are and what they are.. They want to be more; greater, better, more special.. But they're not.. They're just living things that will die someday and dissapear.. It's cruel! I know it is! Cruel, very cruel! That's why people try to ease the pain by making up afterlife.. a nice, pretty lil place where you'll meet all your relatives and friends and where there's no war or pain or misary... Keep dreaming, if it helps..


wow... this is one of the most ignorant comments yet. So are you saying humans can't decide for themselves? And Christianity is not a big ball of fluff and nice safe things. When you give your life to God, you say that you surrender all of your self in faith to your Lord and from that day on serve others first and devote your life to building a relationship with your creator. It's truth not a comfort zone. If you feel like bashing a faith do your research first. Catholic, baptist, protestant, presbeterian, mormon, lutheran, assembly of God, methodist, all these are religions. Christianity is not religion. Religion is man making God what they want Him to be. He's already there. We cant mold God into what we want Him to be. I don't belive that any organized church will get you to God or save you. It's a personal quest that one goes after and seeks out God. Its not safe or a false comfort. It's man giving up his own ways and following God's and not living for self. I know it's a strange concept, but this is what my faith is. I cannot proove to you my God exists. It is a leap of faith, which i think is scarier than staying put and living your life the way you want. You know what it is you want, but what if you were to put your whole life into someone elses hands, and let them be your boss. In turn your eyes are opened and the world is turned around in mindset. But this is a choice that one person makes. You cannot be forced or bent to live this way. Its simply a leap of faith and I would be willing to die for what i believe.

[PointlessRambling]

Interesting factoid about the peace symbol...1

Also called the "crows foot", "broken cross", "witches foot", "Nero's Cross", the "sign of the 'broken Jew'", and the "symbol of the 'Anti-christ'", is actually a cross upside down with the arms broken. It also signifies "the gesture of despair", and the "death of man".

Throughout the last 2,000 years, this symbol has been designated as hatred of Christians. Nero, crucified the Apostle Peter on a cross head downward. This hideous event resembled the Teutonic Cross and became a popular pagan insignia of the day. Thereafter, this sign became known as the 'Neuronic Cross'.

[normlman]

wow... this is one of the most ignorant comments yet. So are you saying humans can't decide for themselves? And Christianity is not a big ball of fluff and nice safe things. When you give your life to God, you say that you surrender all of your self in faith to your Lord and from that day on serve others first and devote your life to building a relationship with your creator. It's truth not a comfort zone. If you feel like bashing a faith do your research first. Catholic, baptist, protestant, presbeterian, mormon, lutheran, assembly of God, methodist, all these are religions. Christianity is not religion. Religion is man making God what they want Him to be. He's already there. We cant mold God into what we want Him to be. I don't belive that any organized church will get you to God or save you. It's a personal quest that one goes after and seeks out God. Its not safe or a false comfort. It's man giving up his own ways and following God's and not living for self. I know it's a strange concept, but this is what my faith is. I cannot proove to you my God exists. It is a leap of faith, which i think is scarier than staying put and living your life the way you want. You know what it is you want, but what if you were to put your whole life into someone elses hands, and let them be your boss. In turn your eyes are opened and the world is turned around in mindset. But this is a choice that one person makes. You cannot be forced or bent to live this way. Its simply a leap of faith and I would be willing to die for what i believe.


a wise friend of mine once told me... Clay, don't go looking for god, god will find you. i think it's just that simple, friend. to be left without trying to persuade anyone else into belief, is best... sometimes ya just gotta let em' shit and fall back in it.

[round_eyed_bugger]

wow... this is one of the most ignorant comments yet. So are you saying humans can't decide for themselves? And Christianity is not a big ball of fluff and nice safe things. When you give your life to God, you say that you surrender all of your self in faith to your Lord and from that day on serve others first and devote your life to building a relationship with your creator. It's truth not a comfort zone. If you feel like bashing a faith do your research first. Catholic, baptist, protestant, presbeterian, mormon, lutheran, assembly of God, methodist, all these are religions. Christianity is not religion. Religion is man making God what they want Him to be. He's already there. We cant mold God into what we want Him to be. I don't belive that any organized church will get you to God or save you. It's a personal quest that one goes after and seeks out God. Its not safe or a false comfort. It's man giving up his own ways and following God's and not living for self. I know it's a strange concept, but this is what my faith is. I cannot proove to you my God exists. It is a leap of faith, which i think is scarier than staying put and living your life the way you want. You know what it is you want, but what if you were to put your whole life into someone elses hands, and let them be your boss. In turn your eyes are opened and the world is turned around in mindset. But this is a choice that one person makes. You cannot be forced or bent to live this way. Its simply a leap of faith and I would be willing to die for what i believe.

Yes, that's exactly what he's saying. And he's right, to a certain extent. Think about it this way. Imagine an alternate human history in which the concept of an "All-Powerful-God" had not crept up. Sure, the idea of "God" is bound to creep up in human history, but let's just suppose that in that history, "God" is kept as the "creator" (and nothing else. Later, that too will fade away). Everything else is explained by science (or whatever medieval form of science is present in that history). According to "silvery moon", if you were to live in that history, you would not believe in God. Because society would not embed in you the very notions of there existing an all powerful higher being who determined everything.
By the way, in this post, I'm assuming, in the first place that God doesnt exist. For the reasons of this, refer to almighty JOSH's posts. I MUST WORSHIP HIM. JOSH, HOW MANY WOMEN HAVE YOU IMPREGNATED WITHOUT PHYSICAL CONTACT?:D

[PointlessRambling]

to round_eyed_bugger
That is a very interesting concept. A world with no grasp at all of a creator. Many things would make more sense then suppose. But im sure in time some type of religious practices would appear through the daily rutines and traditions of the beings. I rather enjoyed your response. Peace out dude:D












Yay cheese comes from cows. Cows chew on grasses. Grasses are fertilized by decomposed animals and poo. Yay poo! cheese = poo. This is my conclusion

[Felicia3693]

I've read the bible more times than years any of you have been alive. That's not the point. The point is that to believe in it you are not taking God's word for it, but rather the people who wrote it, and more comonly, your parents and their parents.

I strongly agree with this quote, the Bible is man-made, and therefore is flawed. That does not mean, however, that it is not true or real, just like gossip, details are vague, but the big message gets accross just fine. I also believe that all religions are the same, God, Buddha, Allah, or what have you, are all the same, they just have different names for different cultures. I have been more of a spiritual person than religious and i see that the messages for all religions are the same - do good, try to lead a good life, have faith, no matter what it is, have faith in it. The Lord will guide you, if you just believe. Having something to believe in keeps us sane, it drives us forward, to do good, knowing that one day we will be eternally happy with whichever name we want to call God.

[Felicia3693]

The thing is that people just don't want to accept who they are and what they are.. They want to be more; greater, better, more special.. But they're not.. They're just living things that will die someday and dissapear.. It's cruel! I know it is! Cruel, very cruel! That's why people try to ease the pain by making up afterlife.. a nice, pretty lil place where you'll meet all your relatives and friends and where there's no war or pain or misary... Keep dreaming, if it helps..

Ok, if we all die and turn to nothing then how do you explain ghosts and spirits? is this just a mass epidemic that millions of people have due to their inability to cope? No, I dont think so, if there are so many cases in which people do see these people that have passed on, then should they all be thrown in the loony bin? And for all you science people, did you read up on the scientific research that concluded that directly after death the body loses about 4oz. of body weight? Our soul has gone from our body. I think all of you non-believers need to sit down for and hour a day and medetate- expand your mind power, because ignorance is what keeps you from seeing things that are in fron of you eyes. If you just have an open mind, you can literally do anything and all of you doubts will be put to rest and your questions will be answered, i can guarantee it. but only if you open your mind and dont expect it to fail.

[round_eyed_bugger]

Ok, if we all die and turn to nothing then how do you explain ghosts and spirits? is this just a mass epidemic that millions of people have due to their inability to cope? No, I dont think so, if there are so many cases in which people do see these people that have passed on, then should they all be thrown in the loony bin? And for all you science people, did you read up on the scientific research that concluded that directly after death the body loses about 4oz. of body weight? Our soul has gone from our body. I think all of you non-believers need to sit down for and hour a day and medetate- expand your mind power, because ignorance is what keeps you from seeing things that are in fron of you eyes. If you just have an open mind, you can literally do anything and all of you doubts will be put to rest and your questions will be answered, i can guarantee it. but only if you open your mind and dont expect it to fail.
Well, I'll be out of Bullshit AND Bullshit.com (imagine the chances of that!), for some time, not that anyone would care. Still, I couldn't resist replying to Felicia's post.
I've seen people die, in front of my horrified eyes. True, they lose weight. But it's more of a scientific thing than you want us to believe. It's more of a
"Deep Last Exhale" (Damn, i could make a metal song outta that). And after that forced exit of air, the body collapses. It's a terrifying sight. Now I'm sure you'll tell me that the exhaled air contains the "soul". Sheesh.
By the way, I'm not denying the existence of "souls". I just prefer calling it "consciousness". And no, it's not separate from the body. The body dies, and the "soul" dies with it. That's my viewpoint.

[bloodeater_2009]

Religion is bullshit, god is bullshit, everything is bullshit. As soon as I say what I'm about to say, you're going 2 say "oh that was the devil taking over" or something like that...but if "god" is real how come so much bad shit happens to innocent people. Point....say two VERY religious people wanted to have a baby and the girl finally got pregnant, but then she had a misscarriage or stillbirth for no reason at all. People shouldn't have to go through that. I beleive when we die we go in the ground and rot and that's it. There is no heaven or hell. God is a made up figure so that people have something to maybe look forward to instead of spending their lives thinking that we're just going to be born, die, and sit in the ground. People want to beleive there is a higher power so that they don't have to think about how pathetic their lives are. Think about that while you're sitting in church.

[Felicia3693]

I'm not going to say "It's the devil taking over" But God gave us free will to do as we wish, and we fucked p our own world and made our own sicknesses and diseases. Dont you remember the Native Americans never even knew what sick was until the corrupted white man came along? Everything that is evil or sad or unholy comes from us ignorant stupid humans. There is no "Devil" in hell, the devil lives in each of us to some degree. And in case you didnt notice, we're living in hell.

[BsK_Belgrado]

First of, BRAVO JOSH, BRAVO! With that out of the way I doubt Ill remember to come and check if there are any replies to this so Ill just say to all you Jebus lovers. I believe there was Jesus as I believe in David Blain. There is no god! Bold statement some of you would say and well you would be correct. I believe religion could be and should be used only as compassion, caring, and appreciation for your fellow man. I will believe in god as soon as someone tells me who his mommy and daddy were? Was it a civilization and one of them by accident or by will made us? As for afterlife? Will my dog "Buffy" be there or in hell? She cleaned herself with her toung! Sounds like that should be against the bible. I agree with JOSH, I don’t believe in aliens, Santa clause, Easter bunny, or god... why? Is it because of Michael Jackson? Maybe but most likely it’s because of the fact that no one has given me substantial proof to believe otherwise. I’m not going to conform and say my table is green because it’s written in the bible when I can see that it’s black. As for faith... if you can have faith in GOD why not in aliens for there is much more current proof out there that they exist. Why not in little elves and the workshop in the North Pole? Finally, if someone expects me to believe in something that asks of me to kill for it then it better give one hell of a BJ and a promise of more. IM OUT!

[Felicia3693]

Well, I'll be out of Bullshit AND Bullshit.com (imagine the chances of that!), for some time, not that anyone would care. Still, I couldn't resist replying to Felicia's post.
I've seen people die, in front of my horrified eyes. True, they lose weight. But it's more of a scientific thing than you want us to believe. It's more of a
"Deep Last Exhale" (Damn, i could make a metal song outta that). And after that forced exit of air, the body collapses. It's a terrifying sight. Now I'm sure you'll tell me that the exhaled air contains the "soul". Sheesh.
By the way, I'm not denying the existence of "souls". I just prefer calling it "consciousness". And no, it's not separate from the body. The body dies, and the "soul" dies with it. That's my viewpoint.

Ok, in case you didnt know this, a deflated basketball weighs the same as one full of air. Air doesnt weigh anything. so no "Deep Last Exhale" could make you lose any weight if it doesnt weigh anything to begin with.

[BsK_Belgrado]

Obviously you didnt take chemistry. Air has weight. Why do u think ballons with hellium want to go up into Heaven.... to keep with the topic. Wait a minut thats the idea follow the BALLON.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=bloodeater_2009]Religion is bullshit, god is bullshit, everything is bullshit. As soon as I say what I'm about to say, you're going 2 say "oh that was the devil taking over" or something like that[QUOTE=bloodeater_2009]

I know exactly what you are saying. I hate it when theists say that! They are so paranoid and myopic!

[QUOTE=bloodeater_2009]...but if "god" is real how come so much bad shit happens to innocent people. [QUOTE=bloodeater_2009]

Weak argument. Theists say that this life is a test and what happens doesn't matter when you get to spend eternity with the creator.

[QUOTE=bloodeater_2009]Point....say two VERY religious people wanted to have a baby and the girl finally got pregnant, but then she had a misscarriage or stillbirth for no reason at all. People shouldn't have to go through that.[QUOTE=bloodeater_2009]

Why not? Everything is a opportunity to grow unless it kills you. Its impossible to know why. Life is what you make of it.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful.
Strive to be happy.

[QUOTE=bloodeater_2009] I beleive when we die we go in the ground and rot and that's it. There is no heaven or hell. [QUOTE=bloodeater_2009]

I agree. So lets make this existance count. Be as happy as you possibly can.

[QUOTE=bloodeater_2009] God is a made up figure so that people have something to maybe look forward to instead of spending their lives thinking that we're just going to be born, die, and sit in the ground. People want to beleive there is a higher power so that they don't have to think about how pathetic their lives are. Think about that while you're sitting in church.[QUOTE=bloodeater_2009]

I would love to say that you are a man after my own heart. However; I havent felt this way in a long time.

[round_eyed_bugger]

Ok, in case you didnt know this, a deflated basketball weighs the same as one full of air. Air doesnt weigh anything. so no "Deep Last Exhale" could make you lose any weight if it doesnt weigh anything to begin with.

Er, are you just trying to look stupid? Here's a complete scientific analysis of your assumption that air has no weight:
What your saying doesn't deserve to be called bullshit. Lizardshit would be better to describe it.
Let's see, hmmm. Air consists of molecules of Nitrogen, Oxygen, Carbon Dioxide, Argon, Hydrogen etc etc etc. Do you agree with me till this point? Hopefully, yes. Now, molecules have "mass". And, (weight) = (mass)*(g), where g is acceleration due to gravity. On the earth's surface, unless in free fall, the value of "g" acting on a body is NEVER zero. Therefore, the molecules that are the constituents of air have weight. Therefore, air, as a whole, has weight. Quad Erat Demonstrandum.
And, if you want a more practical proof, take an inflated basketball and a deflated basketball, for the-god-who-doesnt-exist's sake. Sheesh.
Face it, you're trying to twist basic (believe me, VERY basic) physics to conform with your ideas of "God".

[Whatever]

half of gods good buddies commited incest. :eek: they always dog women in the bible like there less than a man and unclean, :mad: thought we where created the same? Don't kill nobody but it's ok for you to if it's in the name of god? (holy war). good ol' king james destroyed the good word. people say they worship god but turn out to be the biggest hipocrate's of them all.I don't claim to be righteous at least I know I'm not. the one thing that bothers me the most, A baby is born unclean (twice as long if it's a girl) and is not saved on the 7th day it could go to hell. how is that? unlike us a baby hasn't had to chance to fuck up it's life like we had, it's still innocent.:(

[Proud 2 b White]

Yall better get right with Jesus before yall burn in hell

[Zzyzx]

Does Jesus support the deaths of "blackies and other mongrel races"? Dipshit.

(quote from the abortion thread)

[beelzebub]

Looks like Proud 2 be white has left (thank god! aka nothing)

:confused:

[freakazoid]

Looks like Proud 2 be white has left (thank god! aka nothing)

:confused:
WTF is up with that logo in your signiture, dude? Looks almost nazi!

PS, I agree, Proud 2 be white was a mindless shit for brains.

[beelzebub]

WTF is up with that logo in your signiture, dude? Looks almost nazi!

It’s the Mensa 60 year anniversary logo (eg diamond)

Think I should use this one instead?
http://www.us.mensa.org/AM/Images/AML/Logos/MensaMemberLogo.gif

BTW I almost don’t want to say this but your cartoon logo grosses me out. When I read the forum messages I put yours out of the screen so I don’t have to look at it. Have you ever though of changing it?

[hkdbadreligion]

This is for the person who startted me talking about religion. First of all GOD is the most high God. If you read in the Bible you would know that. You shouldn't have to see him to believe in him. Do you see love I don't think so you believe in love just as GOD. Well I'm going to stop talking about the King Of KIngs and the Lord of Lords. I will just have to pray for you. :p

I'm sorry someone can so easily offend you.

[freakazoid]

It’s the Mensa 60 year anniversary logo (eg diamond)

Think I should use this one instead?
http://www.us.mensa.org/AM/Images/AML/Logos/MensaMemberLogo.gif

BTW I almost don’t want to say this but your cartoon logo grosses me out. When I read the forum messages I put yours out of the screen so I don’t have to look at it. Have you ever though of changing it?

LOL, that is an CD cover! LOL, how could a mere picture of a person's head gross you out? You sound like a little school girl.......eeewwwwww ikkie!! eeewwwwww...that is so gross!! ikkie!! LMAO!!

And...

Mensa?! You mean those morons that claim they are all geniuses! LOL, that is one of the biggest bullshit scams around, beelzebub! Please tell me you are not connected with those nuts! LOL!!! :D

[freakazoid]

How can u say there is no afterlife? How do u know? No one does! There are many different beleifs in the Christianity religion. Some beleive in Holy Trinity and others may not. Also, NASA has prove that certain things in the Bible has been true. The world is BEHIND one day in its orbit and the bible has accounted for that day. One day God stopped the Earth. So you conclude what you want from that. :mad:

While there are massive amounts of proof for the existence of God, the "Lost Day" is an urban myth. See...

http://www.progressivetheology.org/principles/Missing-Day.html

:: Proofs of the existence of God...

http://www.doesgodexist.org/Phamplets/Mansproof.html

http://www.doesgodexist.org/

http://www.evolutionisimpossible.com/

[boatzo]

For all of you reading this just imagine that there is a Heaven and a hell. A God and a Devil and all within the bible holds truth. Just for a second. What do you think the Devil would do about religion. I think a lot of people are under the impression that he can't do anything to affect religion. Do you know that Lucifer means "the great one." The one who is great? Great at what? Great at decieving since the very begining. So if the Devil did exist don't you think he would corrupt all that God holds dear. The church, the people in the church. Those left alone to decide see all the confusion and how the church doesn't work. They also see all the different ideas of religions around the world. The people left to decide choose to ignore religion all together. What would be the perfect way to discourage christians and muslums? Make them worship the same God in very different ways so that the offend each other. Sounds like work of the devil to me. Do yourself a huge favor find out for yourself. Keep talking to people. Don't be close minded it will either hide or alter the truth.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

For all of you reading this just imagine that there is a Heaven and a hell. A God and a Devil and all within the bible holds truth. Just for a second. What do you think the Devil would do about religion. I think a lot of people are under the impression that he can't do anything to affect religion. Do you know that Lucifer means "the great one." The one who is great? Great at what? Great at decieving since the very begining. So if the Devil did exist don't you think he would corrupt all that God holds dear. The church, the people in the church. Those left alone to decide see all the confusion and how the church doesn't work. They also see all the different ideas of religions around the world. The people left to decide choose to ignore religion all together. What would be the perfect way to discourage christians and muslums? Make them worship the same God in very different ways so that the offend each other. Sounds like work of the devil to me. Do yourself a huge favor find out for yourself. Keep talking to people. Don't be close minded it will either hide or alter the truth.

So what are you getting at here? Do you suggest that we just ignore all religion because the Devil has corrupted them all? Personally I think that people need to just realize that these religions are different because of different cultures. I find it hard to believe that any one religion has it right, and they have no need to fight each other over which one is right. God would realize that all of our decisions, (especially those about religion) are greatly influenced by our upbringing and cultural background. I'm not even sure that he would care if you were practicing religion, just so long as you always try to do the right thing, and are a good person overall. Of course, that is probably because I believe in a supremely intelligent god who would then be loving and completely understanding.

[boatzo]

First of all I don't think it should be ignored at all. I think your right to an extent. I don't believe that God is going to send all the people your talking about to hell. I think this is one concept that was currupted. The bible only mentions hell like twice. The abyss which is not described that well or even explained that well. People have used hell as a fear factor to get people to take action, or a way to get what they want. These people do not trust God. People out evangilizing to strangers being pushy about their beliefs so that people won't go to hell. They see God as injust and unfair their out to make it fair. Totally stupid if you ask me. I trust God, if he wants to make someone aware of him he will. He does it several times over in the bible. God doesn't ignore those eager to know him. It pleases God that we don't understand his ways. It pleases him that people find him as a condition of the heart and not of common knowledge. I don't claim to understand it all cause none of us are supposed to. What is the condition of your heart? Are you bitter towards God? I used to be. I hated the idea of christianity at one time. God knows why. I was totally athiest at one point. I thought the bible was ridiculous. I also thought people in the church were too. All I have to say is a lot of things have come into place by simply looking for the answers for myself. God knows me, I can't even ignore him if I tried he's awesome. He is my everything. I love him more than anything. Learn the answers for yourself don't take my word for it. The answers are out there.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Wow, we have a lot in common. I too went through a phase where I was certain that no god could exist, and I thought others were ignorant to not see the obvious. I think this through many times though, and I believe now that I was the ignorant one; there is no conclusive argument that god does not exist, but many supporting the possibility that he does. I'm still searching though, and I don't attend mass other than for holidays. I feel that god does exist however, I simply don't feel that there is a religion that does it properly. I hope that in time I can feel as close to him as you claim to be.

[boatzo]

Don't get me wrong the bible says there is a hell. People do come to the Lord through people worrying about them going to hell. Door to door witnessing has helped people. It's all about doing your own investagating and staying open minded cause one thing you can be sure of is that your wrong about something. It's sickening sometimes. The bible says you reap what you sow. If you reap a life of nothing good and pure. You will end up in a world of nothing good and pure. I don't know what happens after you die, but I can see the benefits of living a christian life now all around me. I couldn't do without him. Depression would over whelm me, he brings a lot of joy into my life.

[Tequila]

"When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I realized that I was talking to myself"

I believe that religion is blinding. People see a plane crash and say "I was sick, I didn't get on the plane, God watches out for me". And, what? God was pissed off at everyone else on the plane?

I have no problem with people believing in God. Just don't drag me into it, unless you want to have a civilized debate. I have no patience for those who go "lyk, OMG! i cant beleve u dont belev. how can u nt no jesus is gods sun?" (not to say anyone is this thread has, just a general statement)

[General Septem]

I believe that religion is blinding. People see a plane crash and say "I was sick, I didn't get on the plane, God watches out for me". And, what? God was pissed off at everyone else on the plane?

No, everyone dies. Their time had come; the person who'd gotten sick's time hadn't come yet. So saying "God was watching out for me" is kind of a loaded term; more accurately it just wasn't in God's plan for them to die yet.

[Tequila]

So you believe that God has an all-encompassing plan where each person has a specific point in time to die? (I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to understand)

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

So you believe that God has an all-encompassing plan where each person has a specific point in time to die? (I'm not being sarcastic, I just want to understand)

It's not an outrageous belief, but I think that it's flawed. I tend to believe that god puts us here, and then keeps out of the way, letting us choose our own fate. Those who say that god saved them are more likely just those who catch the luck of circumstance.

[General Septem]

It's kind of up for interpretation. Myself, I believe that God opens and closes doors, and should we choose to go through them, we go from there. And if not, God may open another door. I also believe that God can take bad events and make them good. For example, perhaps someone addicted to drugs might be on his way to buy some more shit, which would seem to be an evil act (in reality, addiction reduces one's culpability for a sin because in order for a sin to be mortal it requires full consent, but that's another matter). So he's on his way to buy some shit when he comes across, oh, let's say he comes across a nun who's being beaten by two members of a gang that the drug addict's gang is a rival of. So he shoots the two gang members that are beating up the nun. She thanks him for saving her life, and let's say she invites him to have a cup of coffee with her, because she's concerned about the man. Long story short, the nun ends up changing the man's life, and they never would have met had he not been on his way to buy some shit. Now I don't think God made those two gang members beat up the nun, and I don't think God made the man addicted to drugs. But I do believe He created the opportunity for the man and the nun to meet and change each other's lives, and He turned the man's addiction and the fact that the nun was attacked into a positive.

[Nobody]

It's not an outrageous belief, but I think that it's flawed. I tend to believe that god puts us here, and then keeps out of the way, letting us choose our own fate. Those who say that god saved them are more likely just those who catch the luck of circumstance.
I'm not shure what you mean by flawed? I do believe , God put us here ,and gives us choices to make. But luck? Isn't that a word that resembles superstition? Maybe it'll make good, for a new rag?

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I'm not shure what you mean by flawed? I do believe , God put us here ,and gives us choices to make. But luck? Isn't that a word that resembles superstition? Maybe it'll make good, for a new rag?

Well, the point I'm trying to make is that whenever something good happens, some people say that god made it happen. When something bad happens others will wonder why god wasn't there to protect them. Ask yourself this question, if everything good that happens is an act of god, then does that mean without god present anything that may be considered good will never happen? Another question, if god is constantly controlling our lives and can change things before they happen, does that mean we really have no free will? It's just far too complex to try and give god credit for good things that happen to good people, and then try to figure out why he lets bad things happen to these people as well. It's much more likely that everything happens as a factor of circumstance. By another definition, luck, but not as far as superstition goes. The numbers just happen to fall in your favor every now and then and that is how you can define the level of luck. Random circumstance makes the numbers fall in some people's favor more often than not, while it also forces the numbers to fall against other people's behavior more often than not. For the majority the numbers will be for them about as often as they are against them. I don't have any problem calling this luck, and some people end up having more luck than others.

God is there at the beginning and at the end, but probably stays out of the way, at least for the majority of the time, while you are enjoying his resort called earth.

[General Septem]

Eh, I don't know about that. I've been way too lucky if that's the case. Seriously, I'd be dead by now from all the stupid things I've done. :D

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Eh, I don't know about that. I've been way too lucky if that's the case. Seriously, I'd be dead by now from all the stupid things I've done. :D

So if that be your belief, then you must conclude that you have absolutely no free will. If god put you here for a specified time, then he must have an exact plan for you that you will inevitably follow through with and then he'll get rid of you. That sounds way too far fetched to me. If you have free will and god intervenes, why would he decide that you deserve to live after doing all the stupid things that should have killed you, while leaving others who had done no wrong they could have forseen to fend for themselves?

[General Septem]

Well we don't really know. Nobody knows what God's plan is. Free will doesn't necessarily mean we're on our own; all it means is that despite there being laws, we are capable of breaking them. God doesn't "force" us to love Him. After all, what's so special about billions of people loving you if you programmed them to and they have no choice? That's what free will is.

I don't think we're all here for a pre-determined time each (although from God's point of view, one might say that there is no time; everything both shall happen, is happening, and already has happened). But I do believe that God guides us through our lives, but only if we are willing to let Him. For example, if I was destined to write a book that will change the world, God might keep me from killing myself by doing something stupid until I have completed what I am here for. But if I were to reject that and do something to get myself killed on purpose, perhaps God would not intervene. On the other hand, if it was important enough, He still might - remember Jonah and the whale. God wanted Jonah to prophesy to that town and nothing Jonah did was going to stop that.

Ultimately, we don't really know what God's plan is. But I am sure of one thing: God didn't just leave us here, and the fact that He sent Jesus into the world is proof of that.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Well, if you really want to believe things are that way....I just prefer not to hide behind my beliefs. Saying that we were put here for a purpose, and god will make sure that happens just takes away from my personal responsibility. It's like saying, god has a plan for me, so as long as I believe in him I don't need to do anything more, he will make sure that I fulfill my purpose. It really sounds like a claim that would be made by a pothead: I can do whatever I want and God will make sure that I do what I'm expected to. I just won't let myself fall into this trap.

[General Septem]

I'm not suggesting that at all. That is a common trap that you can fall into, along with others. Just because God is there to help you doesn't mean you should take Him for granted. I don't believe for one minute that my book will get written if I don't physically write it, or type it as the case may be. But when it's finished you can bet I will thank God for the inspiration, talent, time, computer, and all other factors involved.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

And yet not blame him for a single failure along the way? Don't get me wrong, I admire your faith, but you may be putting too much credit in the wrong direction. I'm sure that your faith inspired you to push through with everything, and you can be sure to credit god for that. But anything beyond your beliefs you did yourself. The talent, you must have put forth some effort to achieve this. The time is something that you changed your schedule to fit. I'm sure that the computer didn't just appear in your lap out of nowhere. Even if you did not put forth the funds to purchase it yourself, someone sacrificed theirs for you. I'm sure these other factors can be accredited in the same way. They may have been inspired by your belief, but they would never have happened if you didn't decide that they would.

[General Septem]

Well yes, but allow me to quote an atheist joke. "Give a man a fish and he will be satisfied for a day; give a man a religion and he will starve to death praying for a fish." This has some virtue to it. Yes, if you pray for a fish, you will starve to death - and most likely God will ask you why you didn't put your pole (your fishing pole, sicko) in the water. Yes my computer did not just fall into my lap, but if I lived in, oh, I don't know, Pakistan, the closest I'd ever get to owning a computer processor is if I chewed up a bit of sand and spit out the resulting lump of clay. I made time, but if God chose to have had me born in, say, the 1920's, I'd be working in a factory and would not have such time. If God had not helped me escape the education system I would be spending 2/3 of my life in school and the other third doing boorish homework. I put forth approximately zero effort to better my writing skills. There are more fingers on my hands than there are books I've read. Harry Potter and Mobile Suit Gundam - that's about it. Yet when I first sat down to begin writing my book, the creativity just flowed out. You saw the paragraph I pasted in the abortion thread where Nadia goes into the doctor's office and he doesn't want to let her change her mind, right? Even beelzebub was impressed and he's an intellectual. There are many other talents that I have that simply come natural to me. It may have to do with my heightened sense of awareness. I notice the world around me and connect with it on a subconscious level. Other people are simply oblivious; boggled by 90% of what's around them. I was born with my talents. They all needed cultivating, but I was given seeds, good soil, nutrients, and light. I planted the seeds, fed them, and exposed them to the light, and they grew, but without what I was given they would not have.

As for failures. Well I rarely "fail". In fact I've actually never failed - after all, I'm still alive and whatever didn't kill me made me stronger. I'm ashamed of the days I used to be addicted to porn, but would I go back and change the fact that they happened? No, because I now know what it is like to be addicted to something, and that helps me at the very least on a social level. It helps me to help those who suffer from addiction, and to accept those who are addicted to things I find revolting. What else have I failed at? School? Hell, if I hadn't "failed" at school I'd still fucking be there. I don't blame God for my failures, I thank Him for them.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

An interesting point. However, my argument is that God does not, (at least on a daily basis), make our lives what they are. Some people claim otherwise, and you appeared to me as one of those.

[Nobody]

An interesting point. However, my argument is that God does not, (at least on a daily basis), make our lives what they are. Some people claim otherwise, and you appeared to me as one of those.
You're right! Unless you've come to a point, to where you have to ask God,to "Help" you through, a tough time. Then you have to believe that he will, whole-hartedly, help you. The "well what will it hurt", attitude is short of believing. Thats only ONE of Gods conditions, is that you believe in HIM. There are a lot of things I believe, exists, but I don't believe IN THEM. Voo-doo, for instance, black cats crossing your path,or walking under a ladder. All the superstitions have a way of crossing paths with religion. And people have a way of interpreting those things as being ok to do. Example; Go to church today, and tomorrow, pray their lottery tickets are good, while holding their "lucky" rabbits foot. Thats not going to happen. If you want God to help you , you have to ask, from your own mouth, in Jesus name. Justthinking it ,dosn't get you any rights to glory. Look here! G.S. says swear words to get his point across, from time to time. But that is what todays language is. Whatever he says, or whatever he thinks, he has to ask for forgiveness, before he can go to sleep tonight. But what he's been telling you,in past rags, and up till now, IS TRUTH.

[General Septem]

Look here! G.S. says swear words to get his point across, from time to time.

What's wrong with swearing?

[Nobody]

What's wrong with swearing?
Nothing. Bad example,I suppose. I need to quit drinking when I write this stuff.

[hkdbadreligion]

What makes you people believe you are special enough for god to intervene? I dont believe he helped the jews when they were being exterminated. Nor when any terrorists strike.

[beelzebub]

What makes you people believe you are special enough for god to intervene? I dont believe he helped the jews when they were being exterminated. Nor when any terrorists strike.

You are 100% correct. Don't let these fools lead you. Make up your own mind.

[General Septem]

Everyone dies. It's just a matter of "when". Some people who should've died in terrorist attacks decided not to fly that day. Some people who should've been killed by the Jews managed to escape. The Holocaust eventually ended. Were the people spared any "better" than the people who died? Of course not. Did God not care for the ones that died? Of course not. It was just their time. God isn't going to just come down from Heaven like Superman and prevent every little bad thing from happening. Shit happens, and is going to continue happening. We could've lived in a world where shit didn't happen, but then Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil. As a result, we have to live in a world where shit happens. People die. People hurt other people. People have accidents. People wear out. People can't cope with other people. But fortunately for us, there is a place where shit doesn't happen, and that is Heaven. So why doesn't God prevent shit from happening? Because 1. it's supposed to happen, and 2. in the end it's not going to matter.

[Unimmune]

First off almost all the religions that are present now days are stolen beliefs from the Pagans. Most people would hear the word Pagan and think of a primative society of barbarians that held violent orgies and gave living sacrifices to multipual gods, which is very far from the truth. This missconception is a product of adoptment of their beliefs into Christanity and a genocide of their history. Their beliefs and stories of a God born as a man to observe mankind was taught not as a sound truth, but an almost fairy tale to teach morals. This "God man" also died for the sins of man and had trials and tribulations much like Christ. Even the dates of this mans birth, death, and re-birth fall on the same days as Christ's. In fact most holidays today are revisions of classic pagan holidays. Easter for example was the original Pagan holiday for furtility hence the egg and the rabbit. Later the Pagans adopted this day to the re-birth of their god man. So, before you choose to attack one another on the basis that one is right because of religion... stop and think about this. It doesn't matter if there is a god, or not as long as you can learn the morals that are there to learn and make the world better for one another. Since the dawn of man we have wage wars based on religion and when you really think about the teachings all the same morals are there, so why do we kill eachother? If there is a god I'm sure he wouldn't want his children pitying and even hating one another because of the regional variables.

[General Septem]

It's interesting that the only people I ever hear this from are Pagans themselves.

Does it really matter? Not to me it doesn't. Seeing as how we have four written testimonies to Jesus's life, death, and resurrection, I think it's safe to say that unlike this Pagan "legend", Jesus actually came to this world.

Easter is actually on a different date every year, so that discredits your theory that Jesus's death was on the same date as your legend or whatever you want to call it. The date on which Easter falls depends on when the Jewish Passover is, and that depends on the full moon. As for Christmas, to the best of my knowledge we don't know the exact date Jesus was born. But in order to celebrate this most joyous event, they had to decide on something, and seeing as how December 25th is right around when the days begin to get longer, it makes sense.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Easter is actually on a different date every year, so that discredits your theory that Jesus's death was on the same date as your legend or whatever you want to call it. The date on which Easter falls depends on when the Jewish Passover is, and that depends on the full moon. As for Christmas, to the best of my knowledge we don't know the exact date Jesus was born. But in order to celebrate this most joyous event, they had to decide on something, and seeing as how December 25th is right around when the days begin to get longer, it makes sense.


Don't do this to yourself GS. It's a well known fact that many traditions of Christianity were derived from Pagan traditions. This is because some ruler in Egypt or Rome or something of the kind wanted to switch his country from Pagans to Christians. He realized that the easiest way to do this is to incorporate many of the same traditions, so that the people would accept the change more openly. Easter is one of the larger ones of these. The easter egg and bunny are directly derived from Pagan traditions. I believe certain things such as a Christmas Tree and Santa Clause are images that have been taken from Paganism and modified into what we know them as today. Paganism was then discredited with many lies to make it seem very taboo. Still, none of this really takes away from Christianity, all the morals and beliefs stand strong. Don't feel ashamed for the nature of how your traditions today had developed.

[Paisleyspeaker]

the leader was Constintine, and he did much for Christianity, but didn't convert himself until about two weeks before his death. He was pagan and those beliefs influenced what he did. And Eostar (or easter) was the name of a goddess , the hare and egg are moon symbols. And the Palastinian winters too cold for the shepards in the gospels to be in the fields to see the star. It probably wasn't the church that decided to incorperate these pagan symbols, but their converts holding on to their traditions, and blending them with the new. Remeber , a good number were forced to convert, they weren't ready to give up their own traditions.

[General Septem]

Now you see, that makes sense. I'm not a historian. All I'm trying to say is that just because some traditions are carried over from Paganism doesn't really mean, well anything. All it means is that a great deal of Pagans converted to Christianity and decided to adapt their own traditions. It doesn't mean we're "unoriginal" or that we're really Pagans in some way.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

It doesn't mean we're "unoriginal" or that we're really Pagans in some way.


No one said that at all. She was just pointing out where your traditions have stemmed from and what their original meanings were.

[tommygun]

I don't think the actually religion was taken from pagan, maybe some of the Christian symbols were. But honestly, I don't see what effect that has on believers and non-believers today.