What's With the Noah's Ark Bullshit?

[MrJim]

Allright, folks, I'm not an advocate for science nor an advocate for religion, but seriously, do people still believe in Noah's Arc in the literal sense? Figuratively, Noah was the hero of the hour, saving humanity from the sins of the time.... but do we really believe that some drunk built a boat to rescue every creature on the planet?

(New Living Version)

Gen. 6:1 - When the human population began to grow rapidly on the earth, the sons of God saw the beautiful women of the human race and took any they wanted as their wives. Then the Lord said 'My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, they will live no more than 120 years.......

Gen 6:3 - Now the lord observed the extent of the people's wickedness, and he saw that all their thoughts were consistently as totally evil.

WHOA... so we saw hot chicks and got hard-ons... and THAT was evil?? God became pissed because we loved having sex with hot babes? Even after we were told to go forth and multiply? There is no description of 'beautiful' in this context.. they may have actually been fat chicks with bones in their noses.... but because we were attracted to them (in the same way all creatures are attracted)... we were evil?!?


Gen 6:5 - Now the Lord observed the extend of the people's wickedness, and he saw that all their thoughts were consistently and totally evil. So the Lord was sorry he had ever made them.

So the Lord wants an abortion, though a little late... (we WERE created in His image, y'know)


blah blah blah...

Gen. 7:3 - Then select seven pairs of every kind of bird. There must be a male and a female in each pair to ensure that every kind of living creature will survive the flood...... 40 days, 40 nights, blah blah.....

So Noah did exactly as the Lord had commanded him. He was 600 years old when the flood came.......he and his wives and sons........ all the birds and and other small animals. They came into the boat in pairs, male and female, just as God had commanded Noah...

PIT STOP: Anything in particular about the birds, and why they seem to be mentioned predominently? I personally find grackles (sp), sparrows, and pigeons to be a nuisance.... did God swing them this way for some reason? Not to mention, we left off millions upon millions of different insects... did they just sort of "spawn" after the arc?


....blah blah blah....

Gen. 7:17 - For forty days the floods prevailed, covering the ground and lifting the boat high above earth. As the waters rose higher and high above the ground, the boat lifted safely above the surface....... all the living things on earth dies - birds, domestic animals, wild animals, all kinds of animals, and all the people.

So the innocent animals suffered? Why? (continued...)

[MrJim]

Okay, skipping through scriptures... Noah was an awesome motherfucker and God told him how badass he was for doing all the blah blah...... blah blah blah....... now here we go about Noah was a drunk and mean to his kids.....


Gen. 9:18 - Sham, Ham, and Japeth, the three sons of Noah, survived the flood with their father.........

One day he became drunk on some wine he had made and lay naked in his tent.

Naked in his tent.... hmmm.... I have gotten drunk and done embarrasing things, but nakedness must not be my cup o' tea.... must be a biblical thing....

Noah was a drunk.... yet he built the arc that saved the world. Any chance he passed out and God built the arc for him? Seriously... makes more sense than some drunk jackass building an arc capable of saving every species on the planet....


Gen 9:23 - Shem and Japeth took a robe, held it over their shoulders, walked backward into the tent and covered their father's naked body. As they did this, they looked the other way so they wouldn't see him naked. When Noah woke up from his drunken stupor, he learned what Ham, his youngest son had done

BTW, this new living version sucks.... Ham laughed at him as I remember it.....


.... Then he cursed the descendants of Canaan, the son of Ham...

..... let Canaan be his (other brothers') servant....

Well, seems to me that by biblical implications, Noah was drunk with power (not to mention wine, which Jesus turned water into umpteen books later), since he (seemingly) saved the earth from God's terrible wrath. So he "cursed" the descendants....

Ummm.... personally, if my kids watched as I got so drunk as to become naked, or wait, more modernly, pissed myself, fallen over, or started speaking nonsense, it would be EXPECTED for them to laugh at me over my own self-inflicted stupidity...

So Noah (with a raging headache no doubt) decided instead to curse his children for mocking his own stupidity? :confused:

I would have chosen (once coming to) to make this an example of how NOT to behave, and been embarassed..... not cursed my kids for laughing at me.... another example of a man created in God's image?

So what parts of these stories do you flesh & bone fundamentalists believe???

[Limbo]

Allright, folks, I'm not an advocate for science nor an advocate for religion, but seriously, do people still believe in Noah's Arc in the literal sense? Figuratively, Noah was the hero of the hour, saving humanity from the sins of the time.... but do we really believe that some drunk built a boat to rescue every creature on the planet?

(New Living Version)
Quote:
Gen. 6:1 - When the human population began to grow rapidly on the earth, the sons of God saw the beautiful women of the human race and took any they wanted as their wives. Then the Lord said 'My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, they will live no more than 120 years.......

Gen 6:3 - Now the lord observed the extent of the people's wickedness, and he saw that all their thoughts were consistently as totally evil.
WHOA... so we saw hot chicks and got hard-ons... and THAT was evil?? God became pissed because we loved having sex with hot babes? Even after we were told to go forth and multiply? There is no description of 'beautiful' in this context.. they may have actually been fat chicks with bones in their noses.... but because we were attracted to them (in the same way all creatures are attracted)... we were evil?!?


Nice splice and dice job here with the editing to try and make a point. God wasn't punishing people because they found women beautiful, he was punishing them because they were wicked and violent.

See Genesis 6 here (non chopped up version):


Now it came about, when men began to multiply on the face of the land, and daughters were born to them, 2 that the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful; and they took wives for themselves, whomever they chose. 3 Then the Lord said, “My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, because he also is flesh; nevertheless his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” 4 The Nephilim were on the earth in those days, and also afterward, when the sons of God came in to the daughters of men, and they bore children to them. Those were the mighty men who were of old, men of renown.
5 Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 And the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, from man to animals to creeping things and to birds of the sky; for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
9 These are the records of the generations of Noah. Noah was a righteous man, blameless in his time; Noah walked with God. 10 And Noah became the father of three sons: Shem, Ham, and Japheth. 11 Now the earth was corrupt in the sight of God, and the earth was filled with violence. 12 And God looked on the earth, and behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted their way upon the earth.
13 Then God said to Noah, “The end of all flesh has come before Me; for the earth is filled with violence because of them; and behold, I am about to destroy them with the earth.


Starting to see a pattern here? The passage mentions violence twice as the reason God felt he had to wipe them out, not for ogling babes. Now c'mon Jim, you can do better than that!

[Limbo]

Okay, skipping through scriptures... Noah was an awesome motherfucker and God told him how badass he was for doing all the blah blah...... blah blah blah....... now here we go about Noah was a drunk and mean to his kids.....



Naked in his tent.... hmmm.... I have gotten drunk and done embarrasing things, but nakedness must not be my cup o' tea.... must be a biblical thing....

Noah was a drunk.... yet he built the arc that saved the world. Any chance he passed out and God built the arc for him? Seriously... makes more sense than some drunk jackass building an arc capable of saving every species on the planet....



BTW, this new living version sucks.... Ham laughed at him as I remember it.....



Well, seems to me that by biblical implications, Noah was drunk with power (not to mention wine, which Jesus turned water into umpteen books later), since he (seemingly) saved the earth from God's terrible wrath. So he "cursed" the descendants....

Ummm.... personally, if my kids watched as I got so drunk as to become naked, or wait, more modernly, pissed myself, fallen over, or started speaking nonsense, it would be EXPECTED for them to laugh at me over my own self-inflicted stupidity...

So Noah (with a raging headache no doubt) decided instead to curse his children for mocking his own stupidity? :confused:

I would have chosen (once coming to) to make this an example of how NOT to behave, and been embarassed..... not cursed my kids for laughing at me.... another example of a man created in God's image?

So what parts of these stories do you flesh & bone fundamentalists believe???

There is a difference between getting drunk and being a drunk. It mentions him getting drunk once, lying there naked, and cursing somebody when he woke up hung over. Big whoop.

As for the moral of the story, God came to believe that those people were beyond hope, sort of like a rabid dog that's gonna bite and kill somebody if not put down.

[MrJim]

Nice splice and dice job here with the editing to try and make a point. God wasn't punishing people because they found women beautiful, he was punishing them because they were wicked and violent.

Oh really? Hmmm... Let's take another look...

Gen 6:1 - When the human population began to grow rapidly on the earth, the sons of God saw the beautiful women of the human race and took any they wanted as their wives. Then the Lord said, My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, they will live no more than 120 years.

So right off the bat, God is pissed because men saw beautiful women? Hell they even married them.... how many preachers do you know that don't have hot trophy wives? We don't even get to violence until the 11th verse... AFTER God is shaking his head in disgust, and all it mentions is that we "were violent"... and you can bet your ass that after the ark, men became MORE violent.


Starting to see a pattern here? The passage mentions violence twice as the reason God felt he had to wipe them out, not for ogling babes. Now c'mon Jim, you can do better than that!

It doesn't seem so to me, however, if the purpose of God's violent and destructive behavior was to rid the world of violence, why did our violence remain? God doesn't goof, remember? D'OH!

Does it strike you as odd that Noah was the chosen one for the task in the first place? Doesn't Revelation, among many others, let us all know that drunkards have their place in Hell?


There is a difference between getting drunk and being a drunk. It mentions him getting drunk once, lying there naked, and cursing somebody when he woke up hung over. Big whoop.

Big whoop?? So why include it? Face it, Noah was in the wrong.. and cursed his son's reaction to his own mistake..


As for the moral of the story, God came to believe that those people were beyond hope, sort of like a rabid dog that's gonna bite and kill somebody if not put down.

Oh, that's nice... he created rabid animals and then wanted to put them down.. a tad sadistic and megalomaniacal don't you think?

[Loseirdo]

Oh really? Hmmm... Let's take another look...

Gen 6:1 - When the human population began to grow rapidly on the earth, the sons of God saw the beautiful women of the human race and took any they wanted as their wives. Then the Lord said, My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, they will live no more than 120 years.

So right off the bat, God is pissed because men saw beautiful women? Hell they even married them.... how many preachers do you know that don't have hot trophy wives? We don't even get to violence until the 11th verse... AFTER God is shaking his head in disgust, and all it mentions is that we "were violent"... and you can bet your ass that after the ark, men became MORE violent.



It doesn't seem so to me, however, if the purpose of God's violent and destructive behavior was to rid the world of violence, why did our violence remain? God doesn't goof, remember? D'OH!

Does it strike you as odd that Noah was the chosen one for the task in the first place? Doesn't Revelation, among many others, let us all know that drunkards have their place in Hell?



Big whoop?? So why include it? Face it, Noah was in the wrong.. and cursed his son's reaction to his own mistake..



Oh, that's nice... he created rabid animals and then wanted to put them down.. a tad sadistic and megalomaniacal don't you think?

Actually, Jim, some people think "sons of God" referred to angelic beings (whether Angels or Demons is up for debate, but since the people are wicked, I'd be inclined to think Demons). I'll look into it more if you're interested.

Next, like with Sodom and Gomorrah, these people were beyond redemption. Destroying them would not get rid of violence and hatred, but it would prevent it from spreading faster than it had to.

After that, of course Noah wasn't perfect. In fact, the only two men in the Bible that don't have a single bad thing said about them are Joseph (dream coat Joseph) and Jesus (Mary is also portrayed as perfect). Other than that, every other person that God calls to be a prophet has something wrong with them. There's something of a lesson in that, don't you think?

Finally, it's ridiculous to think that God flooded the entire world. What most Biblical scholars tend to agree on is that it means that He flooded the known world, which at that time would be Mesopotamia.

Now, don't think that I'm claiming that the story of Noah is definitely true, because I'm not. I'm undecided, and I can easily see how it could go either way. My only point is that it's just as likely that it's true as it's not, so you shouldn't knock it. The Bible even gives exact dimensions for the Ark, so it's not like it's beyond imagining.

[Limbo]

Oh really? Hmmm... Let's take another look...

Gen 6:1 - When the human population began to grow rapidly on the earth, the sons of God saw the beautiful women of the human race and took any they wanted as their wives. Then the Lord said, My Spirit will not put up with humans for such a long time, for they are only mortal flesh. In the future, they will live no more than 120 years.

So right off the bat, God is pissed because men saw beautiful women? Hell they even married them.... how many preachers do you know that don't have hot trophy wives? We don't even get to violence until the 11th verse... AFTER God is shaking his head in disgust, and all it mentions is that we "were violent"... and you can bet your ass that after the ark, men became MORE violent.


Los makes a good point that I had completely forgotten about. Notice that it says that the "sons of God" saw the beautiful women "of the human race". That makes it pretty clear that these "sons of God" were not regular guys like you and me. Nobody really knows for sure who these "sons of God" were, but the most widely held theory is they were fallen angels or some other kind of spiritual beings..



It doesn't seem so to me, however, if the purpose of God's violent and destructive behavior was to rid the world of violence, why did our violence remain? God doesn't goof, remember? D'OH!


You are poking fun at fundies here, but you are doing some black and white thinking of your own. Either he wipes out all violence, or he fails. Maybe he just stopped mankind from wiping itself off the map, so to speak.



Does it strike you as odd that Noah was the chosen one for the task in the first place? Doesn't Revelation, among many others, let us all know that drunkards have their place in Hell?

Big whoop?? So why include it? Face it, Noah was in the wrong.. and cursed his son's reaction to his own mistake..


Who says he was a drunkard? It reports one incident where he got drunk. As Los pointed out, every person in the bible, except Jesus (not sure about Joseph), is shown to have flaws. We are all human after all, and Noah was no exception.



Oh, that's nice... he created rabid animals and then wanted to put them down.. a tad sadistic and megalomaniacal don't you think?

He could have created us as perfect little robots, but would we then have free will? Those who desire and choose of their own free will can be made perfect for our next life.

[WhiteRaven]

*puts on universalist Xian hat*

The flood was a prelude to Jebuz who was saved while the rest of humanity was baptized in his blood. Noah was saved while all the bad people were baptized in water.

*takes off hat*

I gotta be more careful about what hat I put on! I don't want to be a Xian again!!

Seriously, though, Millions of people on the earth, and Noah and his family are the only ones with any hope of redemption?

"Nobody really knows for sure who these "sons of God" were, but the most widely held theory is they were fallen angels or some other kind of spiritual beings.."

I don't think spirits can have sex with material.

And why kill all the innocent animals, anyway?

[Limbo]

*puts on universalist Xian hat*

The flood was a prelude to Jebuz who was saved while the rest of humanity was baptized in his blood. Noah was saved while all the bad people were baptized in water.

*takes off hat*

I gotta be more careful about what hat I put on! I don't want to be a Xian again!!


Being a Christian ain't all that bad now, is it?:cool: Actually many of you were X-ians, as you call it, at one time. We should change the name from bullshit.com to backsliders.com... that would be more accurate.:D



Seriously, though, Millions of people on the earth, and Noah and his family are the only ones with any hope of redemption?


I don't think anybody really knows how many people were on the earth at that time, or how widespread the flood was. The baptism angle is interesting though, never had heard that before, but there is an interesting connection there if you think about it as one dies symbolically to sin and comes out of the water a new person (if one is baptized as an adult).



"Nobody really knows for sure who these "sons of God" were, but the most widely held theory is they were fallen angels or some other kind of spiritual beings.."

I don't think spirits can have sex with material.


In Genesis 19:1-5, the men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to have sex with the two angels who were with Lot, so they must have seemed to have had physical bodies somehow.

[Loseirdo]

I don't think anybody really knows how many people were on the earth at that time, or how widespread the flood was. The baptism angle is interesting though, never had heard that before, but there is an interesting connection there if you think about it as one dies symbolically to sin and comes out of the water a new person (if one is baptized as an adult).


Nah, it's true of all baptism. Adults just have more sin of which they need to be cleansed.

[General Septem]

There was a fable, maybe even a historical record, of some kind of massive flood, and Abraham expanded on it. Whatever the origin, he then came up with the idea that God killed everyone for being evil.

Sigmund Freud's theory was that all people are inherently bad, too. He just didn't call it religion; he called it psychology. Nobody takes him seriously anymore.

[hitekredneck]

There was a fable, maybe even a historical record, of some kind of massive flood, and Abraham expanded on it. Whatever the origin, he then came up with the idea that God killed everyone for being evil.

Sigmund Freud's theory was that all people are inherently bad, too. He just didn't call it religion; he called it psychology. Nobody takes him seriously anymore.

this is my biggest problem with christianity....the thought that everybody, without fail, is inherently evil due to the sins of the "father" (adam & eve)....sure, mankind has the ability for evil, but on average, most people are honest and just wish to lead happy lives....i believe in god, but i doubt seriously he's gonna send us all to hell because of history, if it's historical fact...which i doubt:cool:

[Loseirdo]

this is my biggest problem with christianity....the thought that everybody, without fail, is inherently evil due to the sins of the "father" (adam & eve)....sure, mankind has the ability for evil, but on average, most people are honest and just wish to lead happy lives....i believe in god, but i doubt seriously he's gonna send us all to hell because of history, if it's historical fact...which i doubt:cool:

Dude, most Christians don't believe that everyone is inherently evil. Inherently sinful, yes, but not evil. We (Catholics) believe in Original Sin, but we don't believe that makes people evil -- just in need of cleansing (which is what Baptism is for).

[WhiteRaven]

"Sigmund Freud's theory was that all people are inherently bad, too. He just didn't call it religion; he called it psychology. Nobody takes him seriously anymore."

He had some pretty stupid theories which he deserves ridicule for, but he also had some that are absolutely correct.

[General Septem]

"Sigmund Freud's theory was that all people are inherently bad, too. He just didn't call it religion; he called it psychology. Nobody takes him seriously anymore."

He had some pretty stupid theories which he deserves ridicule for, but he also had some that are absolutely correct.

This is true, he was the first person to identify the subconscious.

[hitekredneck]

Dude, most Christians don't believe that everyone is inherently evil. Inherently sinful, yes, but not evil. We (Catholics) believe in Original Sin, but we don't believe that makes people evil -- just in need of cleansing (which is what Baptism is for).

i stand corrected...i do, however, stand by my position that we aren't inherently sinful, either...do you visit the sins of the father onto the son?

[Limbo]

i stand corrected...i do, however, stand by my position that we aren't inherently sinful, either...do you visit the sins of the father onto the son?

Are you saying you're perfect man? You must be the first human to ever accomplish that.:D

EDIT:

Question for ya, actually more of a thought experiment. If some of us are without a sinful nature as you seem to be hinting at, would it possible then to create a perfect world without any human caused suffering if we could just get rid of all the bad/sinful people? How many people would you guestimate would you be able to select to keep this world perfect? hundreds? thousands? millions? maybe a few dozen?

[MrJim]

Los makes a good point that I had completely forgotten about. Notice that it says that the "sons of God" saw the beautiful women "of the human race". That makes it pretty clear that these "sons of God" were not regular guys like you and me. Nobody really knows for sure who these "sons of God" were, but the most widely held theory is they were fallen angels or some other kind of spiritual beings..

Fallen angels, or ANYTHING existing on a spiritual plane would not be affected by destruction of the physical world. Reading into what Loseirdo wrote:


Finally, it's ridiculous to think that God flooded the entire world. What most Biblical scholars tend to agree on is that it means that He flooded the known world, which at that time would be Mesopotamia.

It IS rediculous... it also seems rediculous to think that intentionally flooding out any large number of people would be an act of mercy or compassion. It would seem more like an act of childish revenge... Why would God enjoy watching his creation suffer? Why wouldn't he try to help the ones he created to become better people? Why give 'the devil' a one-up by saying, screw it, you can have the bastards, I don't want to deal with their bullshit anymore... it just doesn't add up.


Now, don't think that I'm claiming that the story of Noah is definitely true, because I'm not. I'm undecided, and I can easily see how it could go either way. My only point is that it's just as likely that it's true as it's not, so you shouldn't knock it. The Bible even gives exact dimensions for the Ark, so it's not like it's beyond imagining.

Thanks for not making these claims. If there were any truth the story, I find it likely that it has been retold and manipulated over and over again, and it's hard to find a fundamentalist that doesn't fake its certainty.


You are poking fun at fundies here, but you are doing some black and white thinking of your own. Either he wipes out all violence, or he fails. Maybe he just stopped mankind from wiping itself off the map, so to speak.

If I'm truly poking fun at fundies (which I don't think I am), it is only because they make it too easy... the point is, if [random number] of people are killed to end violence, and violence remains... what was the point?


Who says he was a drunkard? It reports one incident where he got drunk. As Los pointed out, every person in the bible, except Jesus (not sure about Joseph), is shown to have flaws. We are all human after all, and Noah was no exception.

Statistically, if one gets wasted to the point that he looses his britches, he has a drinking problem... regardless, he was wrong, and cursing his child was inappropriate.


He could have created us as perfect little robots, but would we then have free will? Those who desire and choose of their own free will can be made perfect for our next life.

Okay, dude... if our free will is that important to him, there is no reason for him to condemn us for our actions... we experience, we learn and we grow, that's it.


Seriously, though, Millions of people on the earth, and Noah and his family are the only ones with any hope of redemption?

Precisely my point... I don't know whether there were supposed to have been 'millions' of people here during that time, but I doubt that there was only one solitary person out of the masses that wasn't a lost cause.


Being a Christian ain't all that bad now, is it?:cool: Actually many of you were X-ians, as you call it, at one time. We should change the name from bullshit.com to backsliders.com... that would be more accurate.:D


Limbo, I hope you're just playing around, because that's what angers me the most is when I am called a 'backslider' just because I've opened my eyes to what religion generally stands for. I get so sick of people, such as friends and family, who worry about me and fear for me based on tall tales of devils and googly-monsters... "Do you believe in God?"... yes... "Do you go to church? Do you believe the bible?" no, and not completely... "I worry about you, you're kids are going to think you're an atheist".... blah blah blah... Are you Southern Baptist? Because if it hadn't been for Southern Baptists and their fire and brimstone this and curses and damnation that, I probably would see religion under a totally different light.

[Loseirdo]

Okay, dude... if our free will is that important to him, there is no reason for him to condemn us for our actions... we experience, we learn and we grow, that's it.


He doesn't condemn us so much as we condemn ourselves. We're the ones that refuse Him, not the other way around. Besides, you're still approaching this from a very secular viewpoint. Who said this life was the last chance any of us would ever have to get into Heaven? I've already been over this, though.

[MrJim]

Who said this life was the last chance any of us would ever have to get into Heaven?

You don't think that it is?? I never claimed that it was...

Actually, I think you're fucking with my head... it seems to me that any viewpoint other than "bow down to your master or burn forever" was considered a "secular vewpoint".

[hitekredneck]

Are you saying you're perfect man? You must be the first human to ever accomplish that.:D

EDIT:

Question for ya, actually more of a thought experiment. If some of us are without a sinful nature as you seem to be hinting at, would it possible then to create a perfect world without any human caused suffering if we could just get rid of all the bad/sinful people? How many people would you guestimate would you be able to select to keep this world perfect? hundreds? thousands? millions? maybe a few dozen?

actually, i see sin as subjective...you have too many societies (some of which are MUCH older than christianity) in which what you would consider a sin, is simply a part of life...a utopia is impossible...in order for there to be such, we would have to be automatons with absolutely no individual will...suffering is part of life, and how you deal with it determines how happy you are in life...:cool:

[MrJim]

actually, i see sin as subjective...you have too many societies (some of which are MUCH older than christianity) in which what you would consider a sin, is simply a part of life...a utopia is impossible...in order for there to be such, we would have to be automatons with absolutely no individual will...suffering is part of life, and how you deal with it determines how happy you are in life...:cool:

"automatons".. :D I like it!

[Loseirdo]

You don't think that it is?? I never claimed that it was...

Of course not. How else could we account for people who died as babies, or other people who died without ever hearing about God, or all the people who died before Jesus had come to Earth? This life can't be the end of the line.

My point is that God taking someone's life seems wicked from a secular viewpoint, but there are two reasons that He would do so: 1. They are ready to get into Heaven, and/or 2. They will only sink deeper into sin from that point forward. In both cases, taking their lives would be merciful. It's conceivable that He would destroy people who fall under category 2 who won't currently get into Heaven simply to prevent further corruption (all people born into that society will follow the same path, et cetera) as well. Of course, I can't claim to know God's plan, but this is what makes sense to me.

[MrJim]

Of course not. How else could we account for people who died as babies, or other people who died without ever hearing about God, or all the people who died before Jesus had come to Earth? This life can't be the end of the line.

The instances you describe here I don't remember being covered in Christianity... but as I mentioned above (sorry about the late edit), Heaven & Hell seems to be cut & dry for the rest of us by Christian theology... one chance, goof and go to hell. I see life & death as a cycle of spiritual growth, not irreversible spiritual destruction.


My point is that God taking someone's life seems wicked from a secular viewpoint, but there are two reasons that He would do so: 1. They are ready to get into Heaven, and/or 2. They will only sink deeper into sin from that point forward. In both cases, taking their lives would be merciful. It's conceivable that He would destroy people who fall under category 2 who won't currently get into Heaven simply to prevent further corruption (all people born into that society will follow the same path, et cetera) as well. Of course, I can't claim to know God's plan, but this is what makes sense to me.

In both cases, why would God intervene at all? R.I.P. free will....

[Loseirdo]

The instances you describe here I don't remember being covered in Christianity... but as I mentioned above (sorry about the late edit), Heaven & Hell seems to be cut & dry for the rest of us by Christian theology... one chance, goof and go to hell. I see life & death as a cycle of spiritual growth, not irreversible spiritual destruction.



In both cases, why would God intervene at all? R.I.P. free will....

First, you must have a very limited scope for what you consider "Christianity". I urge you to look into Catholic Apologetics, or even to just crack open the Catechism if you have a theological question. I think you'd be surprised just how comprehensive and logical it all is.

Second, if God made someone worship Him, they would no longer have free will. However, life itself is not something that we choose -- it is a gift. Eventually it runs out.* If you claim that God taking someone's life goes against free will, you have to also claim that all death goes against free will, which is preposterous, because we don't choose life and death for ourselves.

*Edit: While our physical lives run out, our spiritual lives endure if we choose Christ. "Unless you eat my Flesh and drink my Blood, you have no life within you."

[MrJim]

First, you must have a very limited scope for what you consider "Christianity". I urge you to look into Catholic Apologetics, or even to just crack open the Catechism if you have a theological question. I think you'd be surprised just how comprehensive and logical it all is.

That's what my wife mentioned to me... is it a la Dante's Inferno, or am I getting warm or way off?



Second, if God made someone worship Him, they would no longer have free will. However, life itself is not something that we choose -- it is a gift. Eventually it runs out. If you claim that God taking someone's life goes against free will, you have to also claim that all death goes against free will, which is preposterous, because we don't choose life and death for ourselves.

Okay, so he gives us the gift of life, then we fuck up and he delivers a mercy slaying, is that what you're saying?

[MrJim]

*Edit: While our physical lives run out, our spiritual lives endure if we choose Christ. "Unless you eat my Flesh and drink my Blood, you have no life within you."

I'm not sure I understand how the thimble of wine and cracker determine soul annihilation...

[Loseirdo]

That's what my wife mentioned to me... is it a la Dante's Inferno, or am I getting warm or way off?



Okay, so he gives us the gift of life, then we fuck up and he delivers a mercy slaying, is that what you're saying?

The Divine Comedy is an interesting story, but that's all it is: a story. I don't think Hell is divided up into different sections for progressively worse people. The point of Hell is that the soul is completely separated from God, so wouldn't all people suffer the same?

As for the second bit, that's not quite what I meant. If you are a good person who is going to make a series of bad choices, it would be merciful for God to kill you to spare you more time in Purgatory. I'm not saying He necessarily would, but it's conceivable.

[MrJim]

The Divine Comedy is an interesting story, but that's all it is: a story. I don't think Hell is divided up into different sections for progressively worse people. The point of Hell is that the soul is completely separated from God, so wouldn't all people suffer the same?

It would make sense that everyone is magnetically attracted to those who are the most similar to them in terms of spiritual growth (NDE's again :D)... The soul being completely separated from God wouldn't harm those who are very independent, unless the alternative is harmful. I don't think that's the case, but we could beat that dead horse to a pulp...


As for the second bit, that's not quite what I meant. If you are a good person who is going to make a series of bad choices, it would be merciful for God to kill you to spare you more time in Purgatory. I'm not saying He necessarily would, but it's conceivable.

I never quite understood the 'Purgatory' concept... only that somehow the Catholic preist thought he could save people from it (provided the family paid their weekly fees, of course)

[Loseirdo]

It would make sense that everyone is magnetically attracted to those who are the most similar to them in terms of spiritual growth (NDE's again :D)... The soul being completely separated from God wouldn't harm those who are very independent, unless the alternative is harmful. I don't think that's the case, but we could beat that dead horse to a pulp...

I never quite understood the 'Purgatory' concept... only that somehow the Catholic preist thought he could save people from it (provided the family paid their weekly fees, of course)

Well, if God is Love, everything about Him is Good. Think about living without anything good in your life. Don't you think it would suck a little bit?

As for Purgatory, the idea is that very few people die in a state of absolute grace. For the rest of us, we need a way to make up that grace so that we may deserve Heaven. That's where Purgatory comes in. If we've already earned Heaven but are not spiritually "pure" enough for it yet, we work off our debt, so to speak, in Purgatory. Yes, it was used as a means of profit way back when, but that just means the practice was corrupt, not the teaching itself. If the teaching was flawed, the Church would have done away with it at the Second Vatican Council (Vatican II).

[MrJim]

Well, if God is Love, everything about Him is Good. Think about living without anything good in your life. Don't you think it would suck a little bit?

As for Purgatory, the idea is that very few people die in a state of absolute grace. For the rest of us, we need a way to make up that grace so that we may deserve Heaven. That's where Purgatory comes in. If we've already earned Heaven but are not spiritually "pure" enough for it yet, we work off our debt, so to speak, in Purgatory. Yes, it was used as a means of profit way back when, but that just means the practice was corrupt, not the teaching itself. If the teaching was flawed, the Church would have done away with it at the Second Vatican Council (Vatican II).

I guess your POV is just different from what I’m used to hearing out of most fundamentalists. What I’m used to hearing is “our little group is holy, everyone else and not, and they will all burn in hell forever”... and that viewpoint is just too conceited for my taste. If the vast majority of people on earth are born to burn, it is incomprehensible that God would give them life at all.

[Loseirdo]

I guess your POV is just different from what I’m used to hearing out of most fundamentalists. What I’m used to hearing is “our little group is holy, everyone else and not, and they will all burn in hell forever”... and that viewpoint is just too conceited for my taste. If the vast majority of people on earth are born to burn, it is incomprehensible that God would give them life at all.

That's exactly something that I've been pondering lately, but I think I'll save it for later.

But to address what you said, that's not at all how the Catholic Church sees it. Yes, we believe that we have it "right", but we don't think that we're the only ones that are going to Heaven (like some people claim).

[MrJim]

That's exactly something that I've been pondering lately, but I think I'll save it for later.

But to address what you said, that's not at all how the Catholic Church sees it. Yes, we believe that we have it "right", but we don't think that we're the only ones that are going to Heaven (like some people claim).

I guess I can give you an example of why I’m so pissed and questioning religion lately...

I have a family member (a Catholic) who was talking to me the night my daughter was born, and for whatever reason he decided to dog my ass about not going church. As I told him what I believe in he just got madder and madder like I was the Antichrist or something.. I told him I don’t believe in eternal damnation in Hell and that the afterlife is the opportunity for our souls to grow, etc.. and his answer was a sharp “You better believe in Hell, it’s real, and that’s where you’re headed if you don’t start doing what the bible says”... end of that conversation...

...well, it comes up again, behind my back of course, and now his wife is telling me about how worried she is about how I live my life, and how my daughter is going to be brought up by an agnostic or something... basically, I’m just a butthole who’s going to raise a hethern kid...

Keep in mind also that this dude was an abusive asshole that beat his wife and stepdaughter for years before he started the hoo-haws and hail mary’s... and he’s judging me... it’s just another one of those cases where the religious make me wonder why I would want to believe in a god at all... I know that God is real, but the way some people interpret God gets on my nerves...

Anyway, I'll get off the couch and quit ranting now... maybe you'll see where I'm coming from here...

[Loseirdo]

I guess I can give you an example of why I’m so pissed and questioning religion lately...

I have a family member (a Catholic) who was talking to me the night my daughter was born, and for whatever reason he decided to dog my ass about not going church. As I told him what I believe in he just got madder and madder like I was the Antichrist or something.. I told him I don’t believe in eternal damnation in Hell and that the afterlife is the opportunity for our souls to grow, etc.. and his answer was a sharp “You better believe in Hell, it’s real, and that’s where you’re headed if you don’t start doing what the bible says”... end of that conversation...

...well, it comes up again, behind my back of course, and now his wife is telling me about how worried she is about how I live my life, and how my daughter is going to be brought up by an agnostic or something... basically, I’m just a butthole who’s going to raise a hethern kid...

Keep in mind also that this dude was an abusive asshole that beat his wife and stepdaughter for years before he started the hoo-haws and hail mary’s... and he’s judging me... it’s just another one of those cases where the religious make me wonder why I would want to believe in a god at all... I know that God is real, but the way some people interpret God gets on my nerves...

Anyway, I'll get off the couch and quit ranting now... maybe you'll see where I'm coming from here...

I totally understand, and I'm sorry about that. Even though it might not seem like it, he meant it for the best. He just took the wrong approach.

Attending Mass is vitally important to Catholics. In fact, we consider it a mortal sin to miss even one Sunday (except in extreme cases, of course, but that's another matter). I've found that most people become more and more apathetic towards God and religion the less and less they go to church, so this friend of yours was probably concerned that the same would happen to you. I'm not trying to justify the way he treated you, because it was a pretty dickish thing to do. I just think he had good reason to be concerned.

Maybe formal church isn't the thing for you, Jim. But, honestly, do you think it could hurt? I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, I mean it as an actual question.

Anyway, before looking at how different Churches hold their services and whether or not you think you fit in with a certain denomination, I think it's of vital importance that you examine the theology of each religion. That's why I try to share Catholic doctrine with you (and the rest of Bullshit) as much as I can. If you get a feel for the teachings, you might find something you like.

Speaking of which, I'm still pondering how to go about the Revelation thread. I'll throw some ideas at you in a bit. I have a lot of reading to do. :D

[MrJim]

I totally understand, and I'm sorry about that. Even though it might not seem like it, he meant it for the best. He just took the wrong approach.

Attending Mass is vitally important to Catholics. In fact, we consider it a mortal sin to miss even one Sunday (except in extreme cases, of course, but that's another matter). I've found that most people become more and more apathetic towards God and religion the less and less they go to church, so this friend of yours was probably concerned that the same would happen to you. I'm not trying to justify the way he treated you, because it was a pretty dickish thing to do. I just think he had good reason to be concerned.

If missing mass is a “mortal sin”, what does this mean to you, as far as all the other Christian denominations that do not have mass at all, or better yet, for all the other religions and cultures in the world that don’t even have a clue what mass is? I just don’t see hellfire, imps and demons awaiting such an overwhelming majority of the human race... is there some huge difference between hellfire and the catholic interpretation that I’m missing? Do you think that if I treated everyone I ran into like a dickhead for 69 years and then spent one year attending church before dying at sixty that I would make it to heaven before, say, a generous kindhearted hindu or a loving caring family of buddhists? I just don’t see that happening...


Maybe formal church isn't the thing for you, Jim. But, honestly, do you think it could hurt? I don't mean that in a sarcastic way, I mean it as an actual question.

I attended church (baptist) for 16 years of my life. I attended church again (methodist) for a year or so in my earlier twenties. I had the water sprinkled on my head, ate the cracker and drank the wine, all that... never got a thing out of it. Got the see the preacher ramble and wave his arms around with hellfire, death and destruction and drive off in his BMW though...


Anyway, before looking at how different Churches hold their services and whether or not you think you fit in with a certain denomination, I think it's of vital importance that you examine the theology of each religion. That's why I try to share Catholic doctrine with you (and the rest of Bullshit) as much as I can. If you get a feel for the teachings, you might find something you like.

Speaking of which, I'm still pondering how to go about the Revelation thread. I'll throw some ideas at you in a bit. I have a lot of reading to do. :D

I really can't give you any promises on how I take what you have to say.. but I think what I'm most interested in is what's with all the purgatory and hellfire and heaven and all that... and how to apply what's TAUGHT to what's been experienced personally on a spiritual level by experiencers of the supernatural (NDEs especially)... because actual documented spiritual experiences seem to echo an ENTIRELY different version of life, death, God, spirit, and all in between than that which makes preachers a living.

[Loseirdo]

If missing mass is a “mortal sin”, what does this mean to you, as far as all the other Christian denominations that do not have mass at all, or better yet, for all the other religions and cultures in the world that don’t even have a clue what mass is? I just don’t see hellfire, imps and demons awaiting such an overwhelming majority of the human race... is there some huge difference between hellfire and the catholic interpretation that I’m missing? Do you think that if I treated everyone I ran into like a dickhead for 69 years and then spent one year attending church before dying at sixty that I would make it to heaven before, say, a generous kindhearted hindu or a loving caring family of buddhists? I just don’t see that happening...



I attended church (baptist) for 16 years of my life. I attended church again (methodist) for a year or so in my earlier twenties. I had the water sprinkled on my head, ate the cracker and drank the wine, all that... never got a thing out of it. Got the see the preacher ramble and wave his arms around with hellfire, death and destruction and drive off in his BMW though...



I really can't give you any promises on how I take what you have to say.. but I think what I'm most interested in is what's with all the purgatory and hellfire and heaven and all that... and how to apply what's TAUGHT to what's been experienced personally on a spiritual level by experiencers of the supernatural (NDEs especially)... because actual documented spiritual experiences seem to echo an ENTIRELY different version of life, death, God, spirit, and all in between than that which makes preachers a living.

First, let me explain the concept of mortal and venial sins.

A venial sin is a "little" sin. Things like telling your wife her butt doesn't look big, for instance. Sure, it's a lie, but it's not really that bad. :D

Mortal sins are those sins that are so bad, they completely cut us off from God's graces. However, in order to commit a mortal sin, three conditions must be met:

1. The sin must be a grave matter. The Church has determined which sins are "grave" based on Scripture. Here's a pretty good list: http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
2. The person must know that it is a mortal sin before committing it.
3. The person must commit the sin with full consent.

In other words, while missing mass is a mortal sin for Catholics, it couldn't be a mortal sin for non-Catholics, because non-Catholics don't know it's a mortal sin.

Additionally, the reason missing Mass is such a big deal is because it prevents the person from partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, which we see as the real Body and Blood (the true presence of Christ). As I quoted earlier, "Unless you eat my Body and drink my Blood, you have no life within you." The Eucharist is of grave importance to Catholics.

Second, while you probably would get into Heaven even for just converting on your death bed, you would still have a LOT of time to spend in Purgatory making up for all the shit you did that you never atoned for. The only exception I could think for this would be if you "converted" out of fear rather than belief.

Third, while the Bible makes it clear that good works are not enough to merit salvation, I don't think that means you necessarily have to choose Christ in this life to get into Heaven (like I said earlier). I think it's perfectly reasonable that a person who lived a good life with respect for God's commandments would be given a chance to choose Christ after death. It wouldn't really seem fair otherwise, right?

Fourth, I think it is complete bullshit when people of religious vocations don't practice what they preach. There's nothing wrong with having money, but church heads (pastors, priests, what have you) need to set an example for the rest of the congregation. And for the record, Priests get paid just enough to survive, so it's in no way a monetarily rewarding career (which is the way it should be).

Fifth, I have heard plenty of NDE reports where the person's experience matches exactly the way I think of the afterlife. But is exactly what happens after we die really the most important thing for us to ponder? There are plenty of other things in this world that attest to the true presence of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and, yes, even Hell and Satan. Look at the vast number of cases of Demonic Obsession and Possession (like the one regarding my younger brother), Exorcisms, and the incredible Eucharistic Miracles that have taken place over the years. Even if you ignore the Bible completely, the evidence is quite staggering. Whenever I start to feel my mind nagging at me, I just remind myself of those things and I realize how foolish it would be to doubt God or the Church.

[MrJim]

First, let me explain the concept of mortal and venial sins.

A venial sin is a "little" sin. Things like telling your wife her butt doesn't look big, for instance. Sure, it's a lie, but it's not really that bad. :D

Mortal sins are those sins that are so bad, they completely cut us off from God's graces. However, in order to commit a mortal sin, three conditions must be met:

1. The sin must be a grave matter. The Church has determined which sins are "grave" based on Scripture. Here's a pretty good list: http://www.saintaquinas.com/mortal_sin.html
2. The person must know that it is a mortal sin before committing it.
3. The person must commit the sin with full consent.

In other words, while missing mass is a mortal sin for Catholics, it couldn't be a mortal sin for non-Catholics, because non-Catholics don't know it's a mortal sin.

No offense, but they you put all this is kind of like a screaming advertisement "DON'T BECOME CATHOLIC BECAUSE IF YOU MISS CHURCH ONE SUNDAY YOU'RE FUCKED!" :D

The rules are pretty damning as well... I'm familiar with a lot of this stuff as it carries over to pretty much every denomination of Christianity... except, interestingly, I see "Taking advantage of the poor" on that page you brought up... and as I see it, pretty much everyone that isn't poor is taking advantage of the poor somehow... so all businessmen are likely out of the club...

You see, you hit the right key by not condemning other cultures and speaking of spiritual growth occuring after death, but when we get into these dogmatic principals and the "how to anger God 101" stuff, I don't really buy it. If there is any sin so 'grave' that someone can be cast away by God, then I don't think we are made in God's image at all. As angry as we may become at our children's actions, I don't think most people would take their love away from their kids... it would probably have to be at the point of their lives being threatened.

Does everything really just make God angry enough to torture his children (or hand them over to someone who would torture them)?


Additionally, the reason missing Mass is such a big deal is because it prevents the person from partaking of the Body and Blood of Christ, which we see as the real Body and Blood (the true presence of Christ). As I quoted earlier, "Unless you eat my Body and drink my Blood, you have no life within you." The Eucharist is of grave importance to Catholics.

See, once again, people of other religions are fucked like a duck.


Second, while you probably would get into Heaven even for just converting on your death bed, you would still have a LOT of time to spend in Purgatory making up for all the shit you did that you never atoned for. The only exception I could think for this would be if you "converted" out of fear rather than belief.

Even if Pergatory made any sense... there is no such thing as "time" in the afterlife, so... how would anyone have to spend a lot of time there?


Third, while the Bible makes it clear that good works are not enough to merit salvation, I don't think that means you necessarily have to choose Christ in this life to get into Heaven (like I said earlier). I think it's perfectly reasonable that a person who lived a good life with respect for God's commandments would be given a chance to choose Christ after death. It wouldn't really seem fair otherwise, right?

No, it wouldn't seem unfair otherwise, but there are a lot of conflicting interests here... first off, "a person who lived a good life with respect for God's commandments" is a Christian.. people of other religions may not have the same commandments... is it possible that any person, regardless of what culture or life they have led, can find spiritual enlightenment from guides in the spirit world? And, can't one person's heaven be another's hell?


Fourth, I think it is complete bullshit when people of religious vocations don't practice what they preach. There's nothing wrong with having money, but church heads (pastors, priests, what have you) need to set an example for the rest of the congregation. And for the record, Priests get paid just enough to survive, so it's in no way a monetarily rewarding career (which is the way it should be).

I agree... though not familiar with the salary of a Catholic priest, but the Methodist and Baptist preachers seem to be living it up pretty damn good to be preaching to us about the struggles of life.


Fifth, I have heard plenty of NDE reports where the person's experience matches exactly the way I think of the afterlife.

Any in particular that come to mind? I have read the NDE's of atheists, agnostics, satanists... you know... the 'bad bad dudes'... and rather than a lake of fire, they have been confronted with beings that offer explanations of the universe that change them forever... that's not consisent with religious teaching, is it?


But is exactly what happens after we die really the most important thing for us to ponder?

You mean spiritually? Of course it is. Isn't it better to have the truth than just a 'good idea?'


There are plenty of other things in this world that attest to the true presence of God, Christ, the Holy Spirit, and, yes, even Hell and Satan. Look at the vast number of cases of Demonic Obsession and Possession (like the one regarding my younger brother), Exorcisms, and the incredible Eucharistic Miracles that have taken place over the years. Even if you ignore the Bible completely, the evidence is quite staggering. Whenever I start to feel my mind nagging at me, I just remind myself of those things and I realize how foolish it would be to doubt God or the Church.

I don't doubt God... but I think are are more enlightening things in this world than a building full of singing sheeple that only know how to do as they are told...

[Loseirdo]

No offense, but they you put all this is kind of like a screaming advertisement "DON'T BECOME CATHOLIC BECAUSE IF YOU MISS CHURCH ONE SUNDAY YOU'RE FUCKED!" :D

The rules are pretty damning as well... I'm familiar with a lot of this stuff as it carries over to pretty much every denomination of Christianity... except, interestingly, I see "Taking advantage of the poor" on that page you brought up... and as I see it, pretty much everyone that isn't poor is taking advantage of the poor somehow... so all businessmen are likely out of the club...

You see, you hit the right key by not condemning other cultures and speaking of spiritual growth occuring after death, but when we get into these dogmatic principals and the "how to anger God 101" stuff, I don't really buy it. If there is any sin so 'grave' that someone can be cast away by God, then I don't think we are made in God's image at all. As angry as we may become at our children's actions, I don't think most people would take their love away from their kids... it would probably have to be at the point of their lives being threatened.

Does everything really just make God angry enough to torture his children (or hand them over to someone who would torture them)?

See, once again, people of other religions are fucked like a duck.

Even if Pergatory made any sense... there is no such thing as "time" in the afterlife, so... how would anyone have to spend a lot of time there?

No, it wouldn't seem unfair otherwise, but there are a lot of conflicting interests here... first off, "a person who lived a good life with respect for God's commandments" is a Christian.. people of other religions may not have the same commandments... is it possible that any person, regardless of what culture or life they have led, can find spiritual enlightenment from guides in the spirit world? And, can't one person's heaven be another's hell?

I agree... though not familiar with the salary of a Catholic priest, but the Methodist and Baptist preachers seem to be living it up pretty damn good to be preaching to us about the struggles of life.

Any in particular that come to mind? I have read the NDE's of atheists, agnostics, satanists... you know... the 'bad bad dudes'... and rather than a lake of fire, they have been confronted with beings that offer explanations of the universe that change them forever... that's not consisent with religious teaching, is it?

You mean spiritually? Of course it is. Isn't it better to have the truth than just a 'good idea?'

I don't doubt God... but I think are are more enlightening things in this world than a building full of singing sheeple that only know how to do as they are told...

God never stops loving us. If your child ran away from home, wouldn't you worry about her endlessly? Wouldn't you search and call out for her to return to you? That's what God is doing when we reject Him. He won't force us to come home simply because He loves and respects us too much. Again, that would ruin any notion of Free Will.

Who says there is no such thing as time in the afterlife? Also, how could you know that?

Heaven is being with God. Don't buy into the "joys of the flesh" version of heaven (72 virgins, and all that nonsense). Once you're dead, do you really think you'll still have a sex drive, or a sense of taste, or anything associated with your physical body? All you will require is God's love, and that's exactly what you'll have (in Heaven). By that measure, you will be eternally blissful. That's all there is to it.

The NDEs you described sound remarkably similar to divine revelation. Remember when Saul was knocked off his horse by a blinding light, and a voice came to him saying, "Saul, why are you persecuting My people?" That is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. Does it seem so far-fetched that we would be confronted with Truth (absolute truth) at death? Then, those of us that know enough will understand and accept while those of us who lived our lives in sin will be too afraid or simply not understand. Have you ever read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis? It's a remarkable book, and is very similar to how I imagined the afterlife playing itself out.

It would be nice if we could know exactly what happens when we die, but we can't, can we? The best we can do is guess based on scripture and NDEs (which may not be reliable). Wouldn't it be a better use of our time to ponder scripture regarding how we should live?

The church itself doesn't have to be enlightening, Jim, and I would appreciate it if you would stop mocking people who regularly attend. Maybe some people go without thinking about it, but so what? If it works for them, why should we chastise them? They aren't hurting anyone. Judge not lest you be judged.

[MrJim]

Fair enough. I'll try not to be so tacky with my observations...

It's getting late, and I'd rather not reply based on a skim-through... I'll follow-up on your post later...

[WhiteRaven]

"“You better believe in Hell, it’s real, and that’s where you’re headed if you don’t start doing what the bible says”"

That's odd. John Hagee said almost those exact words in a sermon once(coincidence? I'm not certain.), I saw it, and HIS ENTIRE AUDIENCE LAUGHED!! Idiotic scum. Kind of made me want to tear his head off, and this was when I was a Xian, too.

"God never stops loving us. If your child ran away from home, wouldn't you worry about her endlessly? Wouldn't you search and call out for her to return to you? That's what God is doing when we reject Him. He won't force us to come home simply because He loves and respects us too much. Again, that would ruin any notion of Free Will."

If your child ran away, would you force him to come home if you found him? Or would you respect his free will too much?

"Divination, magic and sorcery—This is a grave sin which includes attempting to command the powers of the occult, control or speak to demons or spirits (especially Satan), attempting to divine the future, and the use of magic charms (CCC 2116). Deuteronomy 18:10-11 speaks against this grave sin. "

Damn, I've done all that stuff... Of course the bible specifically states that you can't go to heaven after backsliding anyways... Oh well.

""He that followeth me, walketh not in darkness, but shall have the light of life" (John 8:12)"

I am not afraid of the darkness.

[General Septem]

a utopia is impossible...in order for there to be such, we would have to be automatons with absolutely no individual will...

I disagree, but here's why. I think a utopia is a world where everyone can be themselves and still be accepted by all. Like freedom and capitalism, it cannot be granted by any outside entity because it must be understood and defended by all.

[hitekredneck]

I disagree, but here's why. I think a utopia is a world where everyone can be themselves and still be accepted by all. Like freedom and capitalism, it cannot be granted by any outside entity because it must be understood and defended by all.

that's exactly why i feel a utopian state is impossible...as long as people are themselves and have free, independant will, there's going to be conflicts of interest, leading to a general disruption of that utopian state...a "utopia" by definition cannot exist unless it's citizens are completely perfect, which we all know is impossible...

utopia

noun
1. a book written by Sir Thomas More (1516) describing the perfect society on an imaginary island
2. ideally perfect state; especially in its social and political and moral aspects [ant: dystopia]
3. a work of fiction describing a utopia
4. an imaginary place considered to be perfect or ideal


too many people have differing ideas and ideals concerning social, political, and moral/ethical aspects, and in an utopian society, all must be the same

[Limbo]

I disagree, but here's why. I think a utopia is a world where everyone can be themselves and still be accepted by all. Like freedom and capitalism, it cannot be granted by any outside entity because it must be understood and defended by all.

Well, that kind of begs a few questions. What if "being yourself" involves doing things that infringe on the rights of others, how can you expect others to just accept it. Like for a kleptomaniac, stealing things is just "being themselves", for a pathological liar, telling lies is just natural for them.

[hitekredneck]

Well, that kind of begs a few questions. What if "being yourself" involves doing things that infringe on the rights of others, how can you expect others to just accept it. Like for a kleptomaniac, stealing things is just "being themselves", for a pathological liar, telling lies is just natural for them.

thanks for explaining my point better than i did :D :D

[Limbo]

I guess your POV is just different from what I’m used to hearing out of most fundamentalists. What I’m used to hearing is “our little group is holy, everyone else and not, and they will all burn in hell forever”... and that viewpoint is just too conceited for my taste. If the vast majority of people on earth are born to burn, it is incomprehensible that God would give them life at all.

Yes, that is why I could never be what most people would call a "fundamentalist", although that is a slippery term, and some people who call themselves fundamentalists might still be ok. The common definition of fundamentalist is "one who takes the bible literally", but of course that is impossible to do completely as the bible is obviously full of parables and metaphors that cannot be taken literally.

But anyway, it's not like thoughtful Christians don't grapple with that issue. That is one of the most disturbing things for anyone to ponder, suffering in Hell forever. BTW, that is a concept that some Christians believe, but not Jewish people, so you can't blame the O.T. for that.

[TheSpectacularSecularist]

understood and defended by all

Do you really see such a society existing?

[MrJim]

God never stops loving us. If your child ran away from home, wouldn't you worry about her endlessly? Wouldn't you search and call out for her to return to you? That's what God is doing when we reject Him. He won't force us to come home simply because He loves and respects us too much. Again, that would ruin any notion of Free Will.

Okay, Los... I see what you're getting at... so a dysfunctial family doesn't mean people stop caring about each other, but they let them work it for themselves... I don't think that people who turn their back on God are necessarily running to Satan (or that Satan exists at all, actually).. and if God doesn't stop caring about us, he would still want to help us, dead or alive...


Who says there is no such thing as time in the afterlife? Also, how could you know that?

Well, it's pretty obvious that I can't "know" that, or be able to prove it any more than you can prove religion... what I can do is draw conclusions from pieces that fit. The end of "time" is presented in many NDE's. If the afterlife exists in another dimension separate of space-time, it would only make sense that with space absent, time would vanish also. Anyone can feel the absence of time during sleep, drunkenness, or drug use... "time" exists to a conscious mind, and it exists because mankind learned to calculate the duration of sunrise and sunset, from the sundials to the clocks.

Have you ever had a dream that seemed to drag for days and discovered when you awoke that you had only been asleep for 30 minutes or maybe an hour? How about a morning you woke up feeling as if you've had no sleep at all, but you had been asleep a full 8 hours? The concept of "time" at the very least is quite distorted when unconscious.


Heaven is being with God. Don't buy into the "joys of the flesh" version of heaven (72 virgins, and all that nonsense). Once you're dead, do you really think you'll still have a sex drive, or a sense of taste, or anything associated with your physical body? All you will require is God's love, and that's exactly what you'll have (in Heaven). By that measure, you will be eternally blissful. That's all there is to it.

So do you think heaven is a physical location? Isn't God 'everywhere'?


The NDEs you described sound remarkably similar to divine revelation. Remember when Saul was knocked off his horse by a blinding light, and a voice came to him saying, "Saul, why are you persecuting My people?" That is exactly the kind of thing I was talking about. Does it seem so far-fetched that we would be confronted with Truth (absolute truth) at death? Then, those of us that know enough will understand and accept while those of us who lived our lives in sin will be too afraid or simply not understand. Have you ever read The Great Divorce by C.S. Lewis? It's a remarkable book, and is very similar to how I imagined the afterlife playing itself out.

I can toss you some pretty remarkable experiences if you want, or you can go to near-death.com and pick out which seem most interesting. A couple of the best were described by Diane Morrisey and Dr. George Rodonia... and another, I'll have to find his name, describes being given a complete tour of the solar system from both an inner- and outer- dimensional point of view. I haven't read "The Great Divorce"... can you summarize in brief?


It would be nice if we could know exactly what happens when we die, but we can't, can we? The best we can do is guess based on scripture and NDEs (which may not be reliable). Wouldn't it be a better use of our time to ponder scripture regarding how we should live?

When you paranthesize (sp) "which may not be reliable" are you referring to both scripture and NDEs or just NDEs? Since we're forced to guess, shouldn't we pulling out the most logical pieces of the puzzle? Guessing can be dangerous. If a doctor acts on a guess, or the CIA acts on a guess, or a nuclear scientist acts on a guess, the results can be catastrophic. What's wrong with just living a happy life, and doing our best to make other people happy at the same time? Belief in God is important, but belief in certain aspects of religion (as least for me personally) incite needless fear and nervousness; as well as a tendency to block out logic when the Holy book contradicts...

[Limbo]

Limbo, I hope you're just playing around, because that's what angers me the most is when I am called a 'backslider' just because I've opened my eyes to what religion generally stands for. I get so sick of people, such as friends and family, who worry about me and fear for me based on tall tales of devils and googly-monsters... "Do you believe in God?"... yes... "Do you go to church? Do you believe the bible?" no, and not completely... "I worry about you, you're kids are going to think you're an atheist".... blah blah blah... Are you Southern Baptist? Because if it hadn't been for Southern Baptists and their fire and brimstone this and curses and damnation that, I probably would see religion under a totally different light.

Yeah, I think some southern Baptists go overboard on things and can really turn people off. I don't go to a southern Baptist church. As with any denomination, each individual church and pastor can be quite different, and I may feel comfortable in some SBCs. As for me I go to a non-denominational church, although I have attended Baptist churches in the past when I lived in Canada. Most Canadian Baptists, and I would say most Baptists in general are quite reasonable people. Most, except for the southern Baptists, are big on religious freedom and separation of church and state which I think are worthy concepts worth protecting.

[freakazoid]

Allright, folks, I'm not an advocate for science nor an advocate for religion, but seriously, do people still believe in Noah's Arc in the literal sense? Figuratively, Noah was the hero of the hour, saving humanity from the sins of the time.... but do we really believe that some drunk built a boat to rescue every creature on the planet?


Check out...

Unsolved Mysteries - Noah's Ark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssIokFu_GXo)

[MrJim]

Check out...

Unsolved Mysteries - Noah Ark (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ssIokFu_GXo)

Very interesting find Freak!

So I wonder where we are now, on analyzing this discovery? As the end of part 2 mentions "only years of analysis will determine..." and it's certainly been several years...

[General Septem]

Well, that kind of begs a few questions. What if "being yourself" involves doing things that infringe on the rights of others, how can you expect others to just accept it. Like for a kleptomaniac, stealing things is just "being themselves", for a pathological liar, telling lies is just natural for them.

Here's your problem though, if liberty is understood by all, then there would be no violence. Violence is a violation of someone else's liberty. There will probably always be a few people with brain disorders that can't help but initiate violence, but that doesn't mean you have to throw the whole system out.


Do you really see such a society existing?

Not in our life time. People are far too ignorant and apathetic for such a thing to work.

[freakazoid]

Very interesting find Freak!

So I wonder where we are now, on analyzing this discovery? As the end of part 2 mentions "only years of analysis will determine..." and it's certainly been several years...

Yeah, MJ, that kind of stuff always gets my attention. What did you think of the video? Any credibility? http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon5.gif

[Zinxe]

Allright, folks, I'm not an advocate for science nor an advocate for religion, but seriously, do people still believe in Noah's Arc in the literal sense? Figuratively, Noah was the hero of the hour, saving humanity from the sins of the time.... but do we really believe that some drunk built a boat to rescue every creature on the planet?

(New Living Version)


WHOA... so we saw hot chicks and got hard-ons... and THAT was evil?? God became pissed because we loved having sex with hot babes? Even after we were told to go forth and multiply? There is no description of 'beautiful' in this context.. they may have actually been fat chicks with bones in their noses.... but because we were attracted to them (in the same way all creatures are attracted)... we were evil?!?



So the Lord wants an abortion, though a little late... (we WERE created in His image, y'know)



PIT STOP: Anything in particular about the birds, and why they seem to be mentioned predominently? I personally find grackles (sp), sparrows, and pigeons to be a nuisance.... did God swing them this way for some reason? Not to mention, we left off millions upon millions of different insects... did they just sort of "spawn" after the arc?



So the innocent animals suffered? Why? (continued...)



I just found this site today, and probably won't ever come back because its lame... but I must reply to this. You, are a total idiot. Those aren't even exact quotes from the Bible, that is "stupid translation". A translation for stupid people.

If you read the NIV or KJV, then it would make more sense than some crack-head version.

Your views are so... illogical and biased. Not to mention your incredible lack of information and knowledge of each section of this.

The flood was to wipe out assholes like you, Noah was a good man, a servant of the Lord, therefor was chosen to build the ark and save the animals. If you don't believe it, then don't be bitching about it. Stupid closed-minded faggot.

[MrJim]

I just found this site today, and probably won't ever come back because its lame... but I must reply to this. You, are a total idiot. Those aren't even exact quotes from the Bible, that is "stupid translation". A translation for stupid people.

If you read the NIV or KJV, then it would make more sense than some crack-head version.

Your views are so... illogical and biased. Not to mention your incredible lack of information and knowledge of each section of this.

The flood was to wipe out assholes like you, Noah was a good man, a servant of the Lord, therefor was chosen to build the ark and save the animals. If you don't believe it, then don't be bitching about it. Stupid closed-minded faggot.

Ah, looks like another cranky little asshole has ventured into the forum tonight... I suppose you never heard of the New Living Translation, but it makes no difference… So, because I don’t condone murder, sadism and abuse, God wants to ‘wipe out assholes like me’? Niiice.... does your God instead reward your un-called-for hostility towards others? Don’t worry, if you never come back, I won’t miss you.

[WhiteRaven]

Hey, maybe he's just decided to stop taking his meds, that's why I was so bitchy when I first came here... it would also explain his choice of screen name.

[thememan]

Very interesting find Freak!

So I wonder where we are now, on analyzing this discovery? As the end of part 2 mentions "only years of analysis will determine..." and it's certainly been several years...

Eh, it was probably not the ark.

One of the things it mentions is that there are variations on the "world flood" story. Which is understandable considering several things:

A)The devastating power of even a local, small flood.

and

B)The rising sea level(And flooding of several areas) some 10,000 years ago at the "end" of the last Ice Age(Or to be more accurate, at the beginning of the Holocene).

Infact, some of the "world flood" stories have nothing in common other than being about a flood.

But that's another story, as it is quite late.

[thememan]

Yeah, MJ, that kind of stuff always gets my attention. What did you think of the video? Any credibility? http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon5.gif

Eh, no, not really. As stated in the video, there are a plethora of other possibilities on what the site is, and it is probably just jumping to conclusions(Happens alot in the biz). That, and it is a popular television show, which are very well known for, shall we say, "embelishing" on the facts to drive up ratings.

[Monster_Hangover]

Mr. Jim. Why you so angry at God and religion? What did they ever do to you?

[MrJim]

Mr. Jim. Why you so angry at God and religion? What did they ever do to you?

"Anger" ain't the word… I'm not sure what you mean by "they", but some of my best friends attend church regularly and are quite devout at that. The only thing that makes me "angry" is when people get on my case about not going. If there were a church that made good sense to me, I would go. But there isn't, so I don't. I brought this one, single, solitary scripture up because after re-reading it, I started thinking "what's up with that?"… I guess thinking and asking questions is a sin…:rolleyes:

[1forall]

I just found this site today, and probably won't ever come back because its lame... but I must reply to this. You, are a total idiot. Those aren't even exact quotes from the Bible, that is "stupid translation". A translation for stupid people.

If you read the NIV or KJV, then it would make more sense than some crack-head version.

Your views are so... illogical and biased. Not to mention your incredible lack of information and knowledge of each section of this.

The flood was to wipe out assholes like you, Noah was a good man, a servant of the Lord, therefor was chosen to build the ark and save the animals. If you don't believe it, then don't be bitching about it. Stupid closed-minded faggot.

I just found this site tonight but I must reply to this LOL!

"Stupid close minded faggot", spoken like a true christian.

Who shoveled the poo??? 2 (or is it 7?) of every animal on one boat? You obviously don't believe evolution so that means Noah had to collect every specie on the planet. Now estimates are from 2-30 million. Lets give it a modest 2 million and a minimum 2 of each animal that he somehow collected and fit on a boat,LULZ! At one poo a day per animal thats 4 million poo's per day, wow.

[WhiteRaven]

"Who shoveled the poo??? 2 (or is it 7?) of every animal on one boat? You obviously don't believe evolution so that means Noah had to collect every specie on the planet. Now estimates are from 2-30 million. Lets give it a modest 2 million and a minimum 2 of each animal that he somehow collected and fit on a boat,LULZ! At one poo a day per animal thats 4 million poo's per day, wow."

Dude, that was pure genius.

[Limbo]

Hey Mr. Jim. Here is an interesting quote for ya.



Job 1:6-12 (King James Version)
King James Version (KJV)

6Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.


This is the same "sons of God" as in the Noah's ark story. They were, according to the Jewish scriptures, the demons, or fallen angels, that God whacks because they had their eyes on human women (what you mistook for God punishing men for being attracted to women).

Things are not always as they appear on a superficial reading.

Satan, according to the old testament is originally created by God to tempt humans to sin, to accuse the sinners, and to carry out God's punishment. Kind of interesting when you think about it. So when the new testament talks about "Satan" being bound up and thrown into the lake of fire, could this be symbolic for the fact that the temptation and the sin will someday cease?

[Monster_Hangover]

"Anger" ain't the word… I'm not sure what you mean by "they", but some of my best friends attend church regularly and are quite devout at that. The only thing that makes me "angry" is when people get on my case about not going. If there were a church that made good sense to me, I would go. But there isn't, so I don't. I brought this one, single, solitary scripture up because after re-reading it, I started thinking "what's up with that?"… I guess thinking and asking questions is a sin…:rolleyes:

Thinking and asking questions no, denying God's words yes. How can you believe in God if you dont believe the Bible?

[hitekredneck]

Thinking and asking questions no, denying God's words yes. How can you believe in God if you dont believe the Bible?

it's simple, really...you take into account that the bible is over 2k years old, and how many times it's been translated and re-translated, by fallible men like ourselves that most likely changed some of the verse to fit their view of god's message....i believe in god, a higher power, however you want to look at it...but when it comes to the bible, i take what interpretations i see and hear with a grain of salt

[WhiteRaven]

the bible wasn't even that accurate to begin with, most of the things it says about science are completely, the creation story is clearly not meant to be taken literally, whether you believe most of it or not. If one part was symbolic(The serpent was a symbolic reference to satan, not an actual snake that he was controlling like stupid fundies say, dumbass.) then most of the rest probably is...

[Limbo]

the bible wasn't even that accurate to begin with, most of the things it says about science are completely, the creation story is clearly not meant to be taken literally, whether you believe most of it or not. If one part was symbolic(The serpent was a symbolic reference to satan, not an actual snake that he was controlling like stupid fundies say, dumbass.) then most of the rest probably is...

Actually, the bible is by far the most accurate about science of any ancient book.

Some examples:



Genesis 1
The Beginning
1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

2 Now the earth was [a] formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

3 And God said, "Let there be light," and there was light. 4 God saw that the light was good, and He separated the light from the darkness. 5 God called the light "day," and the darkness he called "night." And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

6 And God said, "Let there be an expanse between the waters to separate water from water." 7 So God made the expanse and separated the water under the expanse from the water above it. And it was so. 8 God called the expanse "sky." And there was evening, and there was morning—the second day.


It says the universe (heavens and earth) were created out of nothing. Nicely agrees with the big bag.

Earth was formless and void. Again correct, as it started out as a rock/dust/vapor cloud.

As the earth formed, a distinct separation between the surface and sky became apparent and light started to hit the surface as the atmosphere became thinner. Again, right on the button



Job 26:7
He stretches out the north over empty space;
He hangs the earth on nothing.


The earth is suspended is space, so to speak. Not only correct, but unknowable by the ancients.



Genesis 22:17
Blessing I will bless you, and multiplying I will multiply your descendants as the stars of the heaven and as the sand which is on the seashore; and your descendants shall possess the gate of their enemies.


Jeremiah 33:22
“As the host of heaven cannot be numbered, nor the sand of the sea measured, so will I multiply the descendants of David My servant and the Levites who minister to Me.”


Since there are only about 3000 stars visible to the naked eye, it's pretty amazing that the bible says the number of stars is like the sand on seashore. How could they have known there are literally billions of stars? Could be a co-inkydink I guess, but for whatever reason, they got it right.

Now a few other examples:



Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.


Correct. We are made of the same material the earth is. Try to find an accurate description of what we are made of in any other ancient writings.


Jeremiah 31:35,36
Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The LORD of hosts is His name):
“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”


This describes the precision of the physical movements of objects in the universe.



Job 36:27-29
For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?


Beautifully describes weather water cycles.



Isaiah 40:22
It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.


OK, says the earth is round and the universe is expanding. Sounds pretty good to me.

This is just a small sample.

OK W.R., now the onus is on you to show where the bible is scientifically inaccurate.

[WhiteRaven]

"Since there are only about 3000 stars visible to the naked eye, it's pretty amazing that the bible says the number of stars is like the sand on seashore. How could they have known there are literally billions of stars? Could be a co-inkydink I guess, but for whatever reason, they got it right."

Or common sense told them that if there were so many stars that could be seen, there were probably more that could not.

"It says the universe (heavens and earth) were created out of nothing. Nicely agrees with the big bag."

I have never heard of any big bag, so I will assume you meant big bang, in which case, no, it does not agree with it, the big bang says that all matter was condensed into one super dense piece of matter, and that exploded and turned into the universe. a Super dense particle is something, it is not nothing.

"For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?"

Again, they could have figured this out, for example they might have noticed the corelation between the amount of clouds, and the amount of rain, and maybe noticed that fog is moist and kind of looks like clouds, from there it is not too difficult to put together.

"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

OK, says the earth is round"

No, it says the earth is flat, circles are two dimensional, and thus flat. If it said Sphere of the earth, you might have a case.

"Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar"

I noticed the sun was a light by day and the moon and stars by night when I was 5, all they are describing here is that which is plainly obvious.

"“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”"

since the laws of physics haven't ever really changed, it's pretty easy to think they never will.

"Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Correct. We are made of the same material the earth is. Try to find an accurate description of what we are made of in any other ancient writings."

well, uh... we kind of live on the earth, so... yeah...

Where the bible is scientifically inaccurate? Rabbits don't chew cud, and there are no insects with four legs.

[General Septem]

Thinking and asking questions no, denying God's words yes. How can you believe in God if you dont believe the Bible?

That doesn't seem to stop the thousands of other religions that aren't based on the fucking thing.

Isn't it true that there is no Hell in Judaism?

[Limbo]

"Since there are only about 3000 stars visible to the naked eye, it's pretty amazing that the bible says the number of stars is like the sand on seashore. How could they have known there are literally billions of stars? Could be a co-inkydink I guess, but for whatever reason, they got it right."

Or common sense told them that if there were so many stars that could be seen, there were probably more that could not.

"It says the universe (heavens and earth) were created out of nothing. Nicely agrees with the big bag."

I have never heard of any big bag, so I will assume you meant big bang, in which case, no, it does not agree with it, the big bang says that all matter was condensed into one super dense piece of matter, and that exploded and turned into the universe. a Super dense particle is something, it is not nothing.


Of course that particle, as you call it, is not nothing (it is called a singularity). But before it came into existence, there was nothing. Our space and time came into existence from nothing. See here (http://www.big-bang-theory.com/)



Big Bang Theory - The Premise
The Big Bang theory is an effort to explain what happened at the very beginning of our universe. Discoveries in astronomy and physics have shown beyond a reasonable doubt that our universe did in fact have a beginning. Prior to that moment there was nothing; during and after that moment there was something: our universe. The big bang theory is an effort to explain what happened during and after that moment.






"For He draws up drops of water,
Which distill as rain from the mist,
Which the clouds drop down
And pour abundantly on man.
Indeed, can anyone understand the spreading of clouds,
The thunder from His canopy?"

Again, they could have figured this out, for example they might have noticed the corelation between the amount of clouds, and the amount of rain, and maybe noticed that fog is moist and kind of looks like clouds, from there it is not too difficult to put together.


Ancient people were, in general, incredibly superstitious, with very weird views of everything. It seems easy now to figure things out, but they still got it right back then when everyone else was getting it wrong.



"It is He who sits above the circle of the earth,
And its inhabitants are like grasshoppers,
Who stretches out the heavens like a curtain,
And spreads them out like a tent to dwell in.

OK, says the earth is round"

No, it says the earth is flat, circles are two dimensional, and thus flat. If it said Sphere of the earth, you might have a case.


Where does it say it's flat? If you sit high above something round, it appears like a circle no? Ever seen pictures of earth from space?



"Thus says the LORD,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar"

I noticed the sun was a light by day and the moon and stars by night when I was 5, all they are describing here is that which is plainly obvious.

"“If those ordinances depart
From before Me, says the LORD,
Then the seed of Israel shall also cease
From being a nation before Me forever.”"

since the laws of physics haven't ever really changed, it's pretty easy to think they never will.


Easy for you or anyone else in our generation to say it should have been obvious to people 3000 to 3500 years ago. Still they got it right.



"Genesis 2:7
And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living being.

Correct. We are made of the same material the earth is. Try to find an accurate description of what we are made of in any other ancient writings."

well, uh... we kind of live on the earth, so... yeah...

Where the bible is scientifically inaccurate? Rabbits don't chew cud, and there are no insects with four legs.

So all you can do is nit-pick about this kind of stuff? Rabbits eat their own shit. It is the same process as cows where they re-chew something that has already been in their stomach and is partially digested, which is the point about what Moses was trying to say.

For insects, are you talking about this verse?


Lev. 11:20-3 All fowls that creep, going upon all four, shall be an abomination unto you. Yet these may ye eat of every flying creeping thing that goeth upon all four, which have legs above their feet, to leap withal upon the earth; even these of them ye may eat; the locust after his kind, and the bald locust after his kind, and the beetle after his kind, and the grasshopper after his kind. But all other flying creeping things, which have four feet, shall be an abomination unto you.


Look very carefully. This is talking about locust. The back legs (used for hoping) are not considered feet, but rather legs. The "all fours" refers to the legs in the middle that they referred to as feet. No error here.

Is that the best you can do? I thought you said the bible was "full" of errors or something.

[Limbo]

That doesn't seem to stop the thousands of other religions that aren't based on the fucking thing.


Can you fill us in on these 1,000's of other monotheist religions:D Wow, I must have missed something. As far as I know, all the monotheistic religions are derivatives of Judaism (Christianity, Islam, and their offshoots).

He is right G.S., you cannot believe in the God of the bible if you don't believe in the bible. That seems pretty straight forward to me.

Some say that when the Egyptians worshiped the sun, they were monotheistic. That is, in any case, completely different from the God of Judaism.



Isn't it true that there is no Hell in Judaism?

No.

[General Septem]

He is right G.S., you cannot believe in the God of the bible if you don't believe in the bible. That seems pretty straight forward to me.

I have to hand it to you, this kind of logic is certainly hard to argue with. :D

[WhiteRaven]

"Where does it say it's flat? If you sit high above something round, it appears like a circle no? Ever seen pictures of earth from space?"

Yes I have, and I'm wondering if you have, as you can, in fact, tell that it is round.

"Isn't it true that there is no Hell in Judaism?

No."

Or yes.

"So all you can do is nit-pick about this kind of stuff? Rabbits eat their own shit. It is the same process as cows where they re-chew something that has already been in their stomach and is partially digested, which is the point about what Moses was trying to say."

That's all well and good, but it doesn't say "rabbits who perform an act which is almost exactly the same as chewing cud."

"Ancient people were, in general, incredibly superstitious, with very weird views of everything."

I understand that, but they were not all morons.

"Prior to that moment there was nothing"

Nothing could also mean no events. It doesn't necessarily have to mean no physical matter...

[MrJim]

Thinking and asking questions no, denying God's words yes. How can you believe in God if you dont believe the Bible?

If I were Islamic...
"How can you believe in God if you don't believe the Qu'ran?" :rolleyes:

I prefer an equal mix between religion, science, and common sense. I take what makes sense among beliefs while discarding what does not, and that's my religion... don't like it? Tough. Here's a challenge: state your case for Christianity without faltering; and state your case against Islam, Buddha, Hindu, or another religion without faltering. What makes yours better than another?

[Limbo]

If I were Islamic...
"How can you believe in God if you don't believe the Qu'ran?" :rolleyes:

I prefer an equal mix between religion, science, and common sense. I take what makes sense among beliefs while discarding what does not, and that's my religion... don't like it? Tough. Here's a challenge: state your case for Christianity without faltering; and state your case against Islam, Buddha, Hindu, or another religion without faltering. What makes yours better than another?

Hey you're back. That should really annoy your wife:p

What could be better than arguing about religion with strangers??:D

As to the Koran thing, they have just copied and revised the ideas from the Hebrew bible and the Christian New Testament (kind of like plagiarism in a way) . I would say the onus is on them to say why their version is better than the originals. I must say, they do believe in the same God technically, but they give him some different attributes.

If you have never read the Koran, I would recommend doing so. Then you will see why Christianity is the real thing, so to speak. Who can criticize the words of Jesus? Most skeptics harp on stuff like rabbit shit and 4 legged grasshoppers but can't say a word against Jesus teachings:D

[Limbo]

"Isn't it true that there is no Hell in Judaism?

No."

Or yes.


Here are references to Hell in the old testament, which is also sometimes referred to as grave or pit.





Numbers 16:30 - But if the Lord make a new thing, and the earth open her mouth, and swallow them up, with all that appertain unto them, and they go down quick into the pit; then ye shall understand that these men have provoked the Lord.



Numbers 16:33 - They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into the pit, and the earth closed upon them: and they perished from among the congregation.



Deut. 32:22 - For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. (Could this be Tartarus, far below Hades (the "lowest" hell?)



2 Samuel 22:6 - The sorrows of hell compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me;



1 Kings 2:9 - Now therefore hold him not guiltless: for thou art a wise man, and knowest what thou oughtest to do unto him; but his hoar head bring thou down to the grave with blood.



Job 7:9 - As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.


Job 11:8 - It is as high as heaven; what canst thou do? deeper than hell; what canst thou know?


Job 17:13 - If I wait, the grave is mine house: I have made my bed in the darkness.



Job 17:16 - They shall go down to the bars of the pit, when our rest together is in the dust.



Job 21:13 - They spend their days in wealth, and in a moment go down to the grave.



Job 24:19 - Drought and heat consume the snow waters: so doth the grave those which have sinned.



Job 26:6 - Hell is naked before him, and destruction hath no covering.



Psalm 6:5 - For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?



Psalm 9:17 - The wicked shall be turned into hell, and all the nations that forget God.



Psalm 16:10 - For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.



Psalm 18:5 - The sorrows of hell compassed me about: the snares of death prevented me.



Psalm 30:3 - O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave: thou hast kept me alive, that i should not go down to the pit.



Psalm 31:17 - Let me not be ashamed, O Lord; for i have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.



Psalm 55:15 - Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into hell: for wickedness is in their dwellings, and among them.



Psalm 86:13 - For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. (Tartarus, far below Hades)



Psalm 89:48 - What man is he that liveth, and shall not see death? shall he deliver his soul from the hand of the grave? Selah.



Psalm 116:3 - The sorrows of death compassed me, and the pains of hell gat hold upon me: I found trouble and sorrow.



Psalm 139:8 - If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.



Proverbs 1:12 - Let us swallow them up alive as the grave; and whole, as those that go down into the pit:



Proverbs 5:5 - Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell.



Proverbs 7:27- Her house is the way to hell, going down to the chambers of death.



Proverbs 9:18 - But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell.



Proverbs 15:11 - Hell and destruction are before the Lord: how much more then the hearts of the children of men?



Proverbs 15:24 - The way of life is above to the wise, that he may depart from hell beneath.



Proverbs 23:14 - Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.



Proverbs 27:20 - Hell and destruction are never full; so the eyes of man are never satisfied.



Proverbs 30:16 - The grave; and the barren womb; the earth that is not filled with water; and the fire that saith not, It is enough.



Song 8:6 - Set me as a seal upon thine heart, as a seal upon thine arm: for love is strong as death; jealousy is cruel as the grave: the coals thereof are coals of fire, which hath a most vehement flame. (JEALOUSY HAS A FLAME??)



Isaiah 5:14 - Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.



Isaiah 14:9 - Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.



Isaiah 14:15 - Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.



Isaiah 28:15 - Because ye have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:



Isaiah 28:18 - And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then ye shall be trodden down by it.



Isaiah 57:9 - And thou wentest to the king with ointment, and didst increase thy perfumes, and didst send thy messengers far off, and didst debase thyself even unto hell.



Ezekiel 31:15-17 - Thus saith the Lord God; in the day when he went down to the grave I caused a mourning: I covered the deep for him, and I restrained the floods thereof, and the great waters were stayed: and I caused Lebanon to mourn for him, and all the trees of the field fainted for him. 16I made the nations to shake at the sound of his fall, when I cast him down to hell with them that descend into the pit: and all the trees of Eden, the choice and best of Lebanon, all that drink water, shall be comforted in the nether parts of the earth. 17They also went down into hell with him unto them that be slain with the sword; and they that were his arm, that dwelt under his shadow in the midst of the heathen.



Ezekiel 32:21 - The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.



Ezekiel 32:27 - And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to hell with their weapons of war: and they have laid their swords under their heads, but their iniquities shall be upon their bones, though they were the terror of the mighty in the land of the living.

[General Septem]

Here are references to Hell in the old testament, which is also sometimes referred to as grave or pit.

It's a simple matter to check your concordance for mention of the word "hell" in the old testament, but quite another to actually know the nature of the Jewish afterlife. For instance, there are several words in the bible that were translated as "hell". It's important to know the distinctions between these words. It's also important to know what these verses actually say; it appears you have copied and pasted a list of hell references from an online bible search engine as not all of them (or any, I only read a few) refer to human souls awaiting eternal punishment there.

According to some sources, the Jewish view on the afterlife is that the dead either go to Paradise or Gehenna, in the latter of which they wait usually no more than a year for their souls to be purged so that they may go to Paradise. Presumably the eternal hell is reserved for Satan and his demons.

In response to your inevitable "read all of them", I shall prepare a list of responses to these quotes within the next few days.

[Limbo]

It's a simple matter to check your concordance for mention of the word "hell" in the old testament, but quite another to actually know the nature of the Jewish afterlife. For instance, there are several words in the bible that were translated as "hell". It's important to know the distinctions between these words. It's also important to know what these verses actually say; it appears you have copied and pasted a list of hell references from an online bible search engine as not all of them (or any, I only read a few) refer to human souls awaiting eternal punishment there.

According to some sources, the Jewish view on the afterlife is that the dead either go to Paradise or Gehenna, in the latter of which they wait usually no more than a year for their souls to be purged so that they may go to Paradise. Presumably the eternal hell is reserved for Satan and his demons.

In response to your inevitable "read all of them", I shall prepare a list of responses to these quotes within the next few days.

Don't expect to find a consensus among Jews. As in any religion there are liberals and conservatives. I don't think there are any Jews that believe in a hell where evil people are punished for eternity in some kind of burning pit of sulfur. They mostly just believe that the souls of the evil will be consumed in the fires of hell, so to speak, and they will cease to exist. I tend to agree with that take on it. Eternal punishment vs. eternal punishing, if you will. I think many Christians, especially those who have given it any thought, would probably agree that is quite likely what will happen, but no one really knows for sure regardless of what some fundies may claim.

[General Septem]

Don't expect to find a consensus among Jews. As in any religion there are liberals and conservatives. I don't think there are any Jews that believe in a hell where evil people are punished for eternity in some kind of burning pit of sulfur. They mostly just believe that the souls of the evil will be consumed in the fires of hell, so to speak, and they will cease to exist. I tend to agree with that take on it. Eternal punishment vs. eternal punishing, if you will. I think many Christians, especially those who have given it any thought, would probably agree that is quite likely what will happen, but no one really knows for sure regardless of what some fundies may claim.

It's true that there are likely many opinions among the Jewish community as to what happens when we die, but there's certainly a prevailing belief that human souls, including those of the evil, are immortal.

Here's a thought experiment for you: since we are the product of our conditioning and our physiological conditions, is it actually possible for any human being to be truly evil?

[Limbo]

Here's a thought experiment for you: since we are the product of our conditioning and our physiological conditions, is it actually possible for any human being to be truly evil?

I've given up on determinism a long time ago. I think we are more than a product of our genes and our life experiences. I think there is another dimension at work, the soul or spirit, if you will.

I think our basic make-up and personality is largely based on our genes, and I have really seen that with my kids with one taking after me (poor kid) and one taking after my wife and her family. Committing evil acts is a whole other story though. Nobody really knows how a psychopath comes into existence.

[General Septem]

I think our basic make-up and personality is largely based on our genes, and I have really seen that with my kids with one taking after me (poor kid) and one taking after my wife and her family. Committing evil acts is a whole other story though. Nobody really knows how a psychopath comes into existence.

Do you think psychopaths are truly evil then? We do know the causes of many mental disorders, so do you think someone would be punished eternally for what is little more than an affliction?

[Limbo]

Do you think psychopaths are truly evil then? We do know the causes of many mental disorders, so do you think someone would be punished eternally for what is little more than an affliction?

Personally I don't see it as an affliction. I think people are responsible for their actions. Some people really are insane and don't understand what they are doing and our legal system treats them differently as it should. Most people who commit heinous acts know exactly what they are doing and do it anyway. That is what I would call evil.

What are you saying, psychopaths should not be held accountable for their actions because it is just some kind of affliction? Unlike other mental illnesses, nobody knows what causes psychopathy. IMO, if we ever get to the point that we think we are purely a product of our genes and life experiences, we are really screwed. Nobody could be held responsible for anything.

As for punishment in hell, God will be the judge, not me.

[General Septem]

Nobody could be held responsible for anything.

Perhaps they shouldn't be held responsible. It's nobody's place to decide whether the actions of others are right or wrong. This is different from someone presenting a danger to others such that it is necessary for their safety to lock him away. Jail isn't supposed to be some kind of punishment, it is supposed to keep dangerous people away from people they can hurt.

[WhiteRaven]

"Nobody really knows how a psychopath comes into existence." "Unlike other mental illnesses, nobody knows what causes psychopathy."

We do know, however, that psychopathy is not a normal mental condition.

Some say the reason psychopaths tend to be amoral is because they can't see the true consequences of their actions. Amusingly, I am amoral because I can see them. :D

Anyway, here is what the bible says about people being conscious in sheol.

"Whatsoever your hand finds to do, do it with your might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, where you go"(Ecclesiastes 9:10).

[MrJim]

[QUOTE=Limbo;46672If you have never read the Koran, I would recommend doing so. Then you will see why Christianity is the real thing, so to speak. [/QUOTE]

I haven't the desire to read that sort of trash :D
Actually, I have been seriously considering going back to church, I just have failed to find one that is not hypocritical and egotistical... do you know of such a church ?!? :confused:

[hitekredneck]

I haven't the desire to read that sort of trash :D
Actually, I have been seriously considering going back to church, I just have failed to find one that is not hypocritical and egotistical... do you know of such a church ?!? :confused:

of course, jim....what about THE HOLY CHURCH OF THE GREAT REDNECK......:D

[TheSpectacularSecularist]

of course, jim....what about THE HOLY CHURCH OF THE GREAT REDNECK......:D

Sounds bad ass, where do I turn for more information?

[Limbo]

I haven't the desire to read that sort of trash :D
Actually, I have been seriously considering going back to church, I just have failed to find one that is not hypocritical and egotistical... do you know of such a church ?!? :confused:

Sadly there are hypocrites and overly judgmental people in just about every church. I would just shop around and try different churches each week until you find one that is comfortable and welcoming. For me personally, I would avoid the overly liberal ones (united church of Christ, united methodist, etc.), and the overly conservative or bible thumperish ones (southern Baptist, pentecostal, foursquare, etc.).

I attend a non-denominational church. There are a few nuts there, but I just ignore them. The vast majority of the people are great. The pastor spends a lot of time doing expository teaching on the old testament which I like since I don't have time to do an in depth study of it myself. Also, going to a bigger church means that you can be a bit more anonymous.

Even though the stories in the old testament seem wacky to us as adults, they are absolutely captivating to children and any Sunday school teacher would tell you how fantastic they are for teaching them basic morals and values.My kids love those stories just as your daughter probably would. I just make sure to explain to my kids that these events may or may not have actually literally taken place so they won't be too shocked when they realize how wacky they start to seem as they look at things in a more mature way as they grow up.

If you decide to try out a few churches, let me know how it goes.

[hitekredneck]

Sounds bad ass, where do I turn for more information?

lessee....it all began here:
http://forum.bullshit.com/showthread.php?t=1708&highlight=church+redneck

and here's a lil more about my beliefs :cool:
http://forum.bullshit.com/showthread.php?t=757

[TheSpectacularSecularist]

lessee....it all began here:
http://forum.bullshit.com/showthread.php?t=1708&highlight=church+redneck

and here's a lil more about my beliefs :cool:
http://forum.bullshit.com/showthread.php?t=757

Well except by "That's 70's show" it's the kind of God I maybe believe in.

Hot wings, beer, pizza, strippers, rednecks... Sure why not.

It also makes sense. We think thoose things are awesome so it must have been God's intention that we would turn to them. :D

[hitekredneck]

Well except by "That's 70's show" it's the kind of God I maybe believe in.

Hot wings, beer, pizza, strippers, rednecks... Sure why not.

It also makes sense. We think thoose things are awesome so it must have been God's intention that we would turn to them. :D

forgive the 70's show reference....i just have a thing for long leggy redheads...she ruined everything by goin blonde :cool:

[WhiteRaven]

"Even though the stories in the old testament seem wacky to us as adults, they are absolutely captivating to children and any Sunday school teacher would tell you how fantastic they are for teaching them basic morals and values.My kids love those stories just as your daughter probably would. I just make sure to explain to my kids that these events may or may not have actually literally taken place so they won't be too shocked when they realize how wacky they start to seem as they look at things in a more mature way as they grow up."

Remember: It is perfectly okay to tell big, fat, stupid lies to your kids to teach them proper values, you realize that is kind of an Amoral belief?

[hitekredneck]

"Even though the stories in the old testament seem wacky to us as adults, they are absolutely captivating to children and any Sunday school teacher would tell you how fantastic they are for teaching them basic morals and values.My kids love those stories just as your daughter probably would. I just make sure to explain to my kids that these events may or may not have actually literally taken place so they won't be too shocked when they realize how wacky they start to seem as they look at things in a more mature way as they grow up."

Remember: It is perfectly okay to tell big, fat, stupid lies to your kids to teach them proper values, you realize that is kind of an Amoral belief?

why not?....people have told parables for centuries to help teach their kids moral values....just like we try to sell em on santa, the tooth fairy and the easter bunny....i don't care how they get their "moral compass" set as long as it gets set properly....

[General Septem]

why not?....people have told parables for centuries to help teach their kids moral values....just like we try to sell em on santa, the tooth fairy and the easter bunny....i don't care how they get their "moral compass" set as long as it gets set properly....

How about teaching kids that the big bad God will get them in the middle of the night if they lie to their teacher about the dog eating their homework?

[Limbo]

"Even though the stories in the old testament seem wacky to us as adults, they are absolutely captivating to children and any Sunday school teacher would tell you how fantastic they are for teaching them basic morals and values.My kids love those stories just as your daughter probably would. I just make sure to explain to my kids that these events may or may not have actually literally taken place so they won't be too shocked when they realize how wacky they start to seem as they look at things in a more mature way as they grow up."

Remember: It is perfectly okay to tell big, fat, stupid lies to your kids to teach them proper values, you realize that is kind of an Amoral belief?

Not sure where you're going with this one:confused:

Should we ban any childrens book that teaches a moral through interesting stories or parables? That would be bizzare.

[Limbo]

why not?....people have told parables for centuries to help teach their kids moral values....just like we try to sell em on santa, the tooth fairy and the easter bunny....i don't care how they get their "moral compass" set as long as it gets set properly....

I guess the obviousness of this is lost on those who have not been parents yet:D

[WhiteRaven]

fairy tale books that are already called fiction is not the same as lying directly to your children. By the way, alot of kids feel extremely betrayed if they figure out the truth about santa clause and the tooth fairy before their parents tell them, believe me, I know. I figured it out before before my parents really wanted to tell me, and at the time I wanted to kill them.

[Limbo]

fairy tale books that are already called fiction is not the same as lying directly to your children. By the way, alot of kids feel extremely betrayed if they figure out the truth about santa clause and the tooth fairy before their parents tell them, believe me, I know. I figured it out before before my parents really wanted to tell me, and at the time I wanted to kill them.

I tell my kids that most of the stories in the O.T are true, a few (Noah's ark for example) are probably parables which may not be literally true in every respect, and what the story teaches is what is important. I would never deny that God is capable of doing anything, so we can't know what is supernatural.

I just don't see how I am lying to my kids:confused: That is what I believe to be true.

[WhiteRaven]

Alright fine, I guess I misunderstood.

What of santa claus? do you tell your children that there is a man with a 32 inch waistline who can somehow fit down an 12-inch chimney? or that he flies around with magic reindeer sticking presents in peoples houses? And if so, do you believe it?

[Limbo]

Alright fine, I guess I misunderstood.

What of santa claus? do you tell your children that there is a man with a 32 inch waistline who can somehow fit down an 12-inch chimney? or that he flies around with magic reindeer sticking presents in peoples houses?

Nope. I never did.

[WhiteRaven]

Oh... okay then. Yeah, I misread the original post you made, sorry. Then Hitek brought Santa into it, so that's where that came from...

[hitekredneck]

Oh... okay then. Yeah, I misread the original post you made, sorry. Then Hitek brought Santa into it, so that's where that came from...

yeah, we rednecks just gotta screw things up onced in a while :p

[WhiteRaven]

Yeah, I know, I'm somewhat of a goshdarn redneck. :p