Stupid

[Zinxe]

Abortion is stupid.

Stupid little teenage whores, go fuck with anything that can fit in them; and they end up getting knocked up. Oh noes! They aren't ready for the child, they have their whole lives ahead of the, blah blah.

Abortion should be illegal. If you get an abortion, you should be put on death roll for murder.

ONLY time you should have an abortion, is if you know for a fact, 100%, if you had that kid you would surely die from giving birth. Other wise, suck it up and push the runt out.

[General Septem]

Abortion is stupid.

Stupid little teenage whores, go fuck with anything that can fit in them; and they end up getting knocked up. Oh noes! They aren't ready for the child, they have their whole lives ahead of the, blah blah.

I would write a rebuttal here, but I can't identify any semblance of logic, so I have to resort to the universal rebuttal instead: fuck you.


Abortion should be illegal. If you get an abortion, you should be put on death roll for murder.

So let me see if I understand this correctly: killing is wrong, and if you do it we'll kill you?

[Ope]

I would write a rebuttal here, but I can't identify any semblance of logic, so I have to resort to the universal rebuttal instead: fuck you.



So let me see if I understand this correctly: killing is wrong, and if you do it we'll kill you?


So by your logic, it's wrong for a cop to speed to catch a speeder?

[chaplin]

What about if a woman is raped?
Do you REALLY think that she should have that child then?

[TheSpectacularSecularist]

Abortion is stupid.

Stupid little teenage whores, go fuck with anything that can fit in them; and they end up getting knocked up. Oh noes! They aren't ready for the child, they have their whole lives ahead of the, blah blah.

Abortion should be illegal. If you get an abortion, you should be put on death roll for murder.

ONLY time you should have an abortion, is if you know for a fact, 100%, if you had that kid you would surely die from giving birth. Other wise, suck it up and push the runt out.

I will have to say; Fuck You.

[General Septem]

So by your logic, it's wrong for a cop to speed to catch a speeder?

Or to shoot someone who is about to kill a hostage? This is different, there's an immediate danger and these actions are necessary to neutralize the threat. It's different when you're punishing someone for making a choice that has to do with their own body.

[General Septem]

I will have to say; Fuck You.

Great minds think alike. :D

[Ope]

Or to shoot someone who is about to kill a hostage? This is different, there's an immediate danger and these actions are necessary to neutralize the threat. It's different when you're punishing someone for making a choice that has to do with their own body.


It's pretty simple to me. If you believe a fetus is life, then it is murder.
If you don't, then it's not murder.

[hitekredneck]

It's pretty simple to me. If you believe a fetus is life, then it is murder.
If you don't, then it's not murder.

by definition, it's not murder as long as abortion is legal...by definition, it's homicide....or to be totally exact, infanticide :cool:
btw, i've already made my statements about abortion, and will debate it no longer

[General Septem]

It's pretty simple to me. If you believe a fetus is life, then it is murder.
If you don't, then it's not murder.

That may be, but forcing a woman to allow something to grow inside of her and to give birth to it is just as bad as if she were to decide to kill it.

[WhiteRaven]

"So let me see if I understand this correctly: killing is wrong, and if you do it we'll kill you?"

I agree actually, it seems like saying that killing is wrong and then setting aside situations where it is okay is hypocrisy...

[ahsss]

Abortion is stupid.

Stupid little teenage whores, go fuck with anything that can fit in them; and they end up getting knocked up. Oh noes! They aren't ready for the child, they have their whole lives ahead of the, blah blah.

Abortion should be illegal. If you get an abortion, you should be put on death roll for murder.

ONLY time you should have an abortion, is if you know for a fact, 100%, if you had that kid you would surely die from giving birth. Other wise, suck it up and push the runt out.

You have no point. Either way you being selfish and putting yourself before the child inside of you. P E A C E

[whacking4chubbyapes]

You have no point. Either way you being selfish and putting yourself before the child inside of you. P E A C E
I agree . . . . young grass smoker. OH, why do you have my name in your location?? how can I queef?? I don't have a vagina. . .

[allisawhore...a]

i agree 100%...there is no reason at all to have an abortion...even if your raped! if you are raped, and don't want the child...then put it up for adoption, don't abort the kid. i feel very strongly on this subject..my dad's ex wife was going to have my lil bro aborted...until my dad found out. abortions wrong...thats just all there is to say about it!

[WhiteRaven]

"You have no point. Either way you being selfish and putting yourself before the child inside of you. P E A C E"

shut your idiotic mouth. There's nothing wrong with being a little bit selfish, asshole.

"f you are raped, and don't want the child...then put it up for adoption, don't abort the kid."

It's not about not wanting the child, it's about forcing a rape victim to carry the baby to term.

[Paisleyspeaker]

What about the responsibilites of the spreaders of sperm? If a man must "do his thing" without protection and is in favor of the abortion is he also guilty of murder? If not why not?

It is often the fear of dad beat dads and having to do it all alone that makes women think killing their unborn is justified. our society often places much greater expectations and pressures on mothers. Maybe if we could garantee that all men would stand up and do their share fewer women would find theirselves so desperate.

Personally I find the hypocracy of killing people to show killing people is wrong unacceptable. I think that this problem needs to be dealt with by better education, better birth control, and better child support law enforcement. If we are going to demand that level of accountabliliy for women we must demand it for men.

As for the babies concieved by rape, I would hope that women could find it in their heart to do the right thing and allow that child life, but I find forcing that choice too close to violating her again.

Not one of you has ever actually been pregnant. Don't underestimate the intensity of the experience. I am pregnant with my third. To do it right you make many sacrifices (no drinking, smoking, limiting certain foods) and have to put up with many discomforts (months of nausea, vomiting, indigestion, sore swollen everything, emotional chaos) and that doesn't even include labor, childbirth, and post partum depression. To me it is worth it, but it is nowhere near easy.

[General Septem]

What about the responsibilites of the spreaders of sperm? If a man must "do his thing" without protection and is in favor of the abortion is he also guilty of murder? If not why not?

It is often the fear of dad beat dads and having to do it all alone that makes women think killing their unborn is justified. our society often places much greater expectations and pressures on mothers. Maybe if we could garantee that all men would stand up and do their share fewer women would find theirselves so desperate.

Personally I find the hypocracy of killing people to show killing people is wrong unacceptable. I think that this problem needs to be dealt with by better education, better birth control, and better child support law enforcement. If we are going to demand that level of accountabliliy for women we must demand it for men.

Bullshit. Men can be forced to pay child support if an accident happens, and they basically have no choice at all, except to not have sex. We aren't given a choice whether we want the baby, so why are we forced to pay for a bastard child?

[Paisleyspeaker]

Bullshit. Men can be forced to pay child support if an accident happens, and they basically have no choice at all, except to not have sex. We aren't given a choice whether we want the baby, so why are we forced to pay for a bastard child?

If you look at the numbers, many men don't pay. Not all, there are also upstanding men out there too. This thread is about forcing women to support "accidents" It takes two to make a baby, and it wouldn't be right to place the burden on just one. You and I are both smart enough to know whether you have a penis or vagina the only way to be absolutly certain you don't have unwanted pregnancies is no sex. Or to only swallow. Any law that forces women to have these unwanted children, forces men to deal with their consequences.

[General Septem]

i agree 100%...there is no reason at all to have an abortion...even if your raped! if you are raped, and don't want the child...then put it up for adoption, don't abort the kid. i feel very strongly on this subject..my dad's ex wife was going to have my lil bro aborted...until my dad found out. abortions wrong...thats just all there is to say about it!

Right and wrong are abstract concepts. The only way to appease everyone is to enforce our human rights such as liberty, life, and pursuit of property, all of which fall under one general category: freedom of autonomy over our own bodies.

The personhood of an unborn fetus is up for debate, but that of the mother is not. An unwanted pregnancy is a tragedy and an injustice. A woman puts a lot of herself on the line by being pregnant. If she does not want a child inside of her, it is not anyone else's right to tell her she can't.

It is for this reason that the life of the fetus falls under the jurisdiction of the woman, not the federal government. It's up to her whether or not it's right or wrong.

[General Septem]

Any law that forces women to have these unwanted children, forces men to deal with their consequences.

Which is precisely why abortion should not be illegal, but it's already not, so if the woman alone has the choice, why burden the man with having to pay child support?

[Paisleyspeaker]

i agree 100%...there is no reason at all to have an abortion...even if your raped! if you are raped, and don't want the child...then put it up for adoption, don't abort the kid. i feel very strongly on this subject..my dad's ex wife was going to have my lil bro aborted...until my dad found out. abortions wrong...thats just all there is to say about it!

So are you saying that your father raped his ex-wife??? If he didn't then it's not a good example. I understand you love your little brother, and agree it is a compelling argument for a pro-life stance. But asking a women who accepted the risk of pregnancy by having consenual sex is not the same as asking woman who has been raped to carry her rapists child.

[MrJim]

What about the responsibilites of the spreaders of sperm? If a man must "do his thing" without protection and is in favor of the abortion is he also guilty of murder? If not why not? [/qupte]

We covered something similar to this is the 'Man's Choice' thread... there was no agreement (is there ever?), but some posters decided that it should not be the man's choice since it's not his body. I did not agree with that statement. There should be a mutual agreement between parents, and if dad also wants an abortion, I agree, he is just as guilty of murder as mom IMO.... he's an accomplice to murder.

[quote]It is often the fear of dad beat dads and having to do it all alone that makes women think killing their unborn is justified. our society often places much greater expectations and pressures on mothers. Maybe if we could garantee that all men would stand up and do their share fewer women would find theirselves so desperate.

If that's really such an overwhelming excuse, it's pretty sad that one would want to stoop to another's level. If deadbeat dad walks out on his family, this offers a golden opportunity for mom to shine. After it's all said and done, single moms have a lot to be proud of (and single dads for that matter, which is not as uncommon as you may think).


Personally I find the hypocracy of killing people to show killing people is wrong unacceptable. I think that this problem needs to be dealt with by better education, better birth control, and better child support law enforcement. If we are going to demand that level of accountabliliy for women we must demand it for men.

As usual, I agree those things are important.


As for the babies concieved by rape, I would hope that women could find it in their heart to do the right thing and allow that child life, but I find forcing that choice too close to violating her again.

Is the child not violated?


Not one of you has ever actually been pregnant. Don't underestimate the intensity of the experience. I am pregnant with my third. To do it right you make many sacrifices (no drinking, smoking, limiting certain foods) and have to put up with many discomforts (months of nausea, vomiting, indigestion, sore swollen everything, emotional chaos) and that doesn't even include labor, childbirth, and post partum depression. To me it is worth it, but it is nowhere near easy.

I've been through the whole ordeal, and witnessed every bit (too much!) of the birth. The hospital even screwed the pooch on my wife's epidural, and she felt everything through most of the birth INCLUDING with the potosin (sp). But here we are six months later and we see a happy healthy child and the bad days seem like ancient history. She wants to have another (I'm split on it myself).

[Paisleyspeaker]

Jim , you do have a better idea than most posters on this thread what it is to do pregnancy right.
Personally I don't find fear of dead beat dad's enough justification, but figure the more excuses we can get rid of the better. I am a huge advocate of personal responsibility, and would see it extended to all persons.
I would encourage women pregnant from rape to do the right thing, I am just queasy about forcing it. The child would have it's very life violated, I can't argue that, but the child would have a lot to deal with anyway; unless it's adoptive parents never told it the truth.

[MrJim]

Jim , you do have a better idea than most posters on this thread what it is to do pregnancy right.
Personally I don't find fear of dead beat dad's enough justification, but figure the more excuses we can get rid of the better. I am a huge advocate of personal responsibility, and would see it extended to all persons.
I would encourage women pregnant from rape to do the right thing, I am just queasy about forcing it. The child would have it's very life violated, I can't argue that, but the child would have a lot to deal with anyway; unless it's adoptive parents never told it the truth.

Well, I would hope so :)
We used birth control measures up to the day we planned on having Karleigh before my wife starts teaching... and low and behold, no matter how many times we had sex, we did not produce a child until we tried to. I hear so much of this "birth control ain't 100% blah blah blah".... but it sure worked like a charm in our situation.

Anyhow, I'm glad you are 'a huge advocate of personal responsibility'... abortion wouldn't even be such a big issue if people thought before they acted, rather than the other way around.

[General Septem]

We used birth control measures up to the day we planned on having Karleigh before my wife starts teaching... and low and behold, no matter how many times we had sex, we did not produce a child until we tried to. I hear so much of this "birth control ain't 100% blah blah blah".... but it sure worked like a charm in our situation.

Some women can get pregnant a lot easier than others. It's a hormonal thing. Most women that have to try for a while to get pregnant won't have breakthrough pregnancies when on the pill, but for others the risk is a lot higher.

[MrJim]

Some women can get pregnant a lot easier than others. It's a hormonal thing. Most women that have to try for a while to get pregnant won't have breakthrough pregnancies when on the pill, but for others the risk is a lot higher.

That's what they say. But my wife got pregnant the first week we tried, so it doesn't seem like a question of fertilitary. Protection is protection.

[General Septem]

That's what they say. But my wife got pregnant the first week we tried, so it doesn't seem like a question of fertilitary. Protection is protection.

It certainly is. I've always been of the opinion that the higher availability of contraceptives does more to stem abortion than any legislature will. That doesn't mean it's anyone's fault if something does happen, though, and abortion should still be available to those women who do get pregnant, for whatever reason, and decide they do not want to bear a child.

[MrJim]

It certainly is. I've always been of the opinion that the higher availability of contraceptives does more to stem abortion than any legislature will. That doesn't mean it's anyone's fault if something does happen, though, and abortion should still be available to those women who do get pregnant, for whatever reason, and decide they do not want to bear a child.

So then, do you not consider abortion to be murder? Or do you think murder is appropriate in general? It doesn't seem like you could have one without the other.

[General Septem]

So then, do you not consider abortion to be murder? Or do you think murder is appropriate in general? It doesn't seem like you could have one without the other.

My opinion of abortion is irrelevant, because it's not a choice I have to make. I do however believe that it is well within someone's justification should they decide that they don't want to carry and bear a child.

I also think the idea that a woman can't have an abortion even to save her life is complete imbecility. One death is preferable to two deaths, and if you can prevent one death but don't because of some twisted idea of morality, you're as guilty as if you'd pulled the trigger yourself.

[MrJim]

My opinion of abortion is irrelevant, because it's not a choice I have to make. I do however believe that it is well within someone's justification should they decide that they don't want to carry and bear a child.

Compare it to enlisting for the service. After reaping the benefits, you can't just decide when war breaks out that you don't want to participate any longer. Your mission is to protect innocent lives.


I also think the idea that a woman can't have an abortion even to save her life is complete imbecility. One death is preferable to two deaths, and if you can prevent one death but don't because of some twisted idea of morality, you're as guilty as if you'd pulled the trigger yourself.

When you get into rare instances as above, you're supporting a poorly founded rule based on an exception to another rule. I would agree that if it is a certainty both people are going to die without the abortion it would be an exception (like responding to fatal illness), but justifying millions of selfish, irresponsible women based on a rare case is also complete imbecility.

[General Septem]

Compare it to enlisting for the service. After reaping the benefits, you can't just decide when war breaks out that you don't want to participate any longer. Your mission is to protect innocent lives.

I don't follow. I'm not in the business of protecting fetuses, and I'm not bailing out due to some war with them. Can you explain a little more? :confused:


When you get into rare instances as above, you're supporting a poorly founded rule based on an exception to another rule. I would agree that if it is a certainty both people are going to die without the abortion it would be an exception (like responding to fatal illness), but justifying millions of selfish, irresponsible women based on a rare case is also complete imbecility.

I'm justifying millions of selfish, irresponsible women based on the fact that it's their bodies and they have the right to choose what happens to them. The rare instance was just a tangent I needed to get out of my system.

[Paisleyspeaker]

General

May I ask what changed your mind. It seems I remember you starting many Pro-life threads, and even suggesting that rape victims should not have abortions.

[MrJim]

I don't follow. I'm not in the business of protecting fetuses, and I'm not bailing out due to some war with them. Can you explain a little more? :confused:

It's an analogy.

In both cases you know the danger of what you're getting into from the start. When things go wrong, giving up isn't always an option. In both instances, there is an opportunity to protect innocent lives, but abortion does just the opposite.


I'm justifying millions of selfish, irresponsible women based on the fact that it's their bodies and they have the right to choose what happens to them. The rare instance was just a tangent I needed to get out of my system.

Well, your tangent SUCKS.

[General Septem]

General

May I ask what changed your mind. It seems I remember you starting many Pro-life threads, and even suggesting that rape victims should not have abortions.

I finally started to realize the meaning of liberty and freedom. I used to use those words as cuss words instead of "goddamnit" or "jesus christ". I was so incredibly brainwashed by religion that I honestly thought it would be justifiable to base all US law on the bible and force people to go to church and shit. I finally realized the psychological damage it all was causing me, and I'm afraid I might still be paying for it. In the mean time I basically hate all religion.


In both cases you know the danger of what you're getting into from the start. When things go wrong, giving up isn't always an option. In both instances, there is an opportunity to protect innocent lives, but abortion does just the opposite.

What you know from the start is irrelevant. Not using protection when you don't want to get pregnant is stupid, but that doesn't take away your rights over your own body. That "innocent life" is also under the care and jurisdiction of the mother, so whether or not you or I agree with it (I don't. I fucking hate kids.), the government would be wrong to interfere. It's not their matter.


By the way, you've mentioned a couple times the rarity of certain extenuating circumstances, specifically rape, incest, failed birth control, or to save the life of the mother.

First of all, I have a question; where did you get your information on just how many abortions are performed in these cases?

Second, even if they are a very small minority, if abortion were to be made illegal this minority would be boned.

[MrJim]

What you know from the start is irrelevant.

Are you serious??


That "innocent life" is also under the care and jurisdiction of the mother, so whether or not you or I agree with it (I don't. I fucking hate kids.), the government would be wrong to interfere. It's not their matter.

'I fucking hate kids' explains a lot by itself, but let's analyze the government's role anyway. The government does not allow any individual to kill another individual unless that individual puts the killer's life in jeopardy. So, to put 2 and 2 together, if the baby causes a threat to the mother's life, it seems that a mother would be protected in the decision to eliminate the threat. In most cases, however, the only threat to the mother is the threat to her social life, bank account, etc.. so it doesn't make sense that she has the right to destroy a non-threatening entity.. it may sound fascist to you, but I have no problem taking a stand for an innocent child over an irresponsible adult.


First of all, I have a question; where did you get your information on just how many abortions are performed in these cases?

Anyone who isn't living under a rock can guesstimate based on news and what other people tell them, but here's a sample survey that I pulled out of my ass for you:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

If you add up how many abortions were performed for reasons such as money, relationships, responsibility, etc., it comes out to 91%. Rape is only 1%, and there is a 3% 'other' category that seems irrelevant. Only 6% comes out of concern for the mother or the baby's health. No specific selection was made that outright specifies a life-threatening condition for mother and/or child, though it might take a slice out of the aforementioned 6%.

So depending on what consists of the 'other' category, 91-94% of abortions are performed based on how having a child affects a mother's personal life.


Second, even if they are a very small minority, if abortion were to be made illegal this minority would be boned.

I'm certain that if abortion were illegal, there would be certain clauses that would protect this very small minority. Justice isn't blind.

[General Septem]

'I fucking hate kids' explains a lot by itself, but let's analyze the government's role anyway. The government does not allow any individual to kill another individual unless that individual puts the killer's life in jeopardy.

Only within their jurisdiction. The American government isn't going to do anything about someone getting killed in another country unless that person was an American (born or naturalized). The government doesn't stick its head into things it knows are none of its business, and in this case the government rightly acknowledges that the fetus is under the jurisdiction of the mother, not the government.


Anyone who isn't living under a rock can guesstimate based on news and what other people tell them,

(...and are usually wrong by these methods,)


but here's a sample survey that I pulled out of my ass for you:

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/abreasons.html

If you add up how many abortions were performed for reasons such as money, relationships, responsibility, etc., it comes out to 91%. Rape is only 1%, and there is a 3% 'other' category that seems irrelevant. Only 6% comes out of concern for the mother or the baby's health. No specific selection was made that outright specifies a life-threatening condition for mother and/or child, though it might take a slice out of the aforementioned 6%.

So depending on what consists of the 'other' category, 91-94% of abortions are performed based on how having a child affects a mother's personal life.

That means that almost a tenth of all abortions are performed in life threatening conditions, rape, or some other bad shit. That is a minority, not a rarity.


I'm certain that if abortion were illegal, there would be certain clauses that would protect this very small minority. Justice isn't blind.

Probably, but the hoops you'd have to jump through to do so would probably be immense. Like convincing your doctor that you need medicinal marijuana.

[MrJim]

Only within their jurisdiction. The American government isn't going to do anything about someone getting killed in another country unless that person was an American (born or naturalized). The government doesn't stick its head into things it knows are none of its business, and in this case the government rightly acknowledges that the fetus is under the jurisdiction of the mother, not the government.

That's totally assinine and you know it. The mother is in America, so any part of the mother, including the baby, couldn't possibly be anywhere else. If there's so much damn dependence on a fucking piece of paper, then maybe the doctors should start making some shit out once pregnancy is confirmed, eliminating the stupid loophole.


That means that almost a tenth of all abortions are performed in life threatening conditions, rape, or some other bad shit. That is a minority, not a rarity.

A questionable 6% is not 'almost a tenth', and if you were paying attention, I said that there would be exceptions. "...if the baby causes a threat to the mother's life, it seems that a mother would be protected in the decision to eliminate the threat..."

We could go back and forth on statistical crap for days, but it makes no difference, really. Abortion seems to be legally justified for the sole reason that a fetus is not 'alive enough' to realize it's being gruesomely killed. By that logic, I should be able to walk up to a drunk guy unconscious on the street corner and cut his head off; since he'd never know I did it, it's okay, RIGHT? RIGHT?

Bullshit. The law is flawed, and if you can't see that, then you are just as ignorant and bullheaded as the posters you USED to make a stand against.


Probably, but the hoops you'd have to jump through to do so would probably be immense.

Life is hard. God forbid you have to 'jump through hoops' to justify murder.

[General Septem]

That's totally assinine and you know it. The mother is in America, so any part of the mother, including the baby, couldn't possibly be anywhere else. If there's so much damn dependence on a fucking piece of paper, then maybe the doctors should start making some shit out once pregnancy is confirmed, eliminating the stupid loophole.

The fact that the mother is in America doesn't change it. The government is there to serve us, not to own us. Our country was founded based on the principles of liberty, which ultimately boils down to the idea of self-ownership. You own your life and your body, and nobody has the right to murder, enslave, or steal from you.

We have the right to choose what happens inside of our bodies. If I do something stupid and end up with a piece of rebar in my arm, I have the right to have it removed, regardless of whatever decisions I made that put it there. If someone is born with a parasitic twin, they have the right to have it removed, even though it would kill the twin.

I could write a thesis on what exactly this all means, but it all boils down to one very simple statement: the government has no jurisdiction in matters concerning our own bodies, because we are the sole owners of our bodies. It's really that simple, and whether or not abortion is "wrong", which will never really be proven either way, it would be wrong of the government to force a pregnant woman to carry it to term.

The government doesn't even tell us we can't use drugs. It is only illegal to possess, sell, or buy illegal drugs. This is a load of bullshit when it comes down to it, but the point is that the government realizes they cannot legislate what happens in our bodies. They only got around it this time by banning sale, purchase, and possession.


By that logic, I should be able to walk up to a drunk guy unconscious on the street corner and cut his head off; since he'd never know I did it, it's okay, RIGHT? RIGHT?

Wrong, it wouldn't be OK, which is precisely why that's not the logic behind the law. This is also why Scott Peterson was convicted for a double murder for killing his pregnant wife.

I'm not saying it's right or wrong, I'm saying it isn't a matter for the government to decide.


Life is hard. God forbid you have to 'jump through hoops' to justify murder.

Or to save your own life without the government throwing your ass in prison.

If you want to believe it's murder, that's fine. The point is, it's outside of the government's jurisdiction. This is not a technicality, it is a fundamental tenet of liberty.


I'm going to introduce another argument here: banning abortion doesn't even have any effect on its occurrence. Additionally, the abortions that are performed are done so by quacks with coat hangers and ice cream scoops. You may argue that the women had it coming, but the fact is they wouldn't have if they were given the opportunity to go to a qualified doctor.

[Renaschelle]

Just some thoughts to ponder...

Do you realize, General Septem, that if a mother does drugs while she is pregnant the child will be taken away from her when the baby is born?? Also, in Texas, if a mother is pregnant and gets killed and the baby dies as well, the person who killed the mother and the unborn baby gets charged with two murders not just one.

So why did you change your stance on abortion?

[MrJim]

General, it doesn't sound like you were 'brainwashed by religion' as you claimed, it sounds like you are currently being brainwashed by something else. At any rate, your Jeckyl & Hyde act is becoming less and less appealing, and this argument is becoming a total waste of my time.

[General Septem]

Do you realize, General Septem, that if a mother does drugs while she is pregnant the child will be taken away from her when the baby is born??

And so they should. Any woman who would be so irresponsible as to take drugs during pregnancy obviously is unfit to raise a child.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the abortion debate though.


Also, in Texas, if a mother is pregnant and gets killed and the baby dies as well, the person who killed the mother and the unborn baby gets charged with two murders not just one.

It's still the termination of a human life. The difference when the mother does it is that it's her choice what she does with her body. When another person makes that choice for her, it becomes a matter of the state, which is true of any legitimate crime.

The only reason it doesn't apply to abortion is because it's within the mother's jurisdiction. It may be a human life, but it's living inside someone else's body, and if she doesn't want it there, then she has every right to have it removed. It may be the "wrong" thing to do, but it's still the mother's choice.

Maybe some day they will have the ability to sustain a fetus in an artificial womb. At that point, and in all probability, only at that point will the debating cease, though I wouldn't put it past some people to argue in the past tense about whether it was justifiable.


So why did you change your stance on abortion?

It's far too long of a story to get into, and it doesn't have anything to do with abortion, it has to do with me leaving the Catholic Church. The only reason I was ever really against abortion (in fact, the only real reason I was even a Catholic) to begin with was because I was convinced that I'd go to hell if my opinion was different from the one forced by the church. I never really cared about the lives of unborn fetuses, I just couldn't sleep because of all the horrors I was told that 98% of the population would be subjected to for eternity.

I guess I thought that, by convincing people that abortion is wrong, I could somehow prevent them from going to hell. Of course, it never really occurred to me that being so judgmental was not any better, but despite the teachings of Jesus, I don't think the Catholic Church has ever really considered being judgmental to be a sin; you know, as long as your judgment was "right" according to papal teachings.


General, it doesn't sound like you were 'brainwashed by religion' as you claimed, it sounds like you are currently being brainwashed by something else. At any rate, your Jeckyl & Hyde act is becoming less and less appealing, and this argument is becoming a total waste of my time.

Frankly, it was a waste of my time to begin with, or I'd have put more time and thought into it. Apparently I put more thought than you did, though, because even I didn't sink down to the old "brainwashed" argument.

It's kind of unfortunate that abortion is a topic that two adults can't disagree on without it getting personal.

[Renaschelle]

And so they should. Any woman who would be so irresponsible as to take drugs during pregnancy obviously is unfit to raise a child.

I'm not sure what this has to do with the abortion debate though.



It's still the termination of a human life. The difference when the mother does it is that it's her choice what she does with her body. When another person makes that choice for her, it becomes a matter of the state, which is true of any legitimate crime.

The only reason it doesn't apply to abortion is because it's within the mother's jurisdiction. It may be a human life, but it's living inside someone else's body, and if she doesn't want it there, then she has every right to have it removed. It may be the "wrong" thing to do, but it's still the mother's choice.

Maybe some day they will have the ability to sustain a fetus in an artificial womb. At that point, and in all probability, only at that point will the debating cease, though I wouldn't put it past some people to argue in the past tense about whether it was justifiable.


Isn't it the mother's choice to do drugs while she is pregnant? Both are harmful to the unborn baby, but abortion kills the baby, while drugs cause addiction at birth among other things. I am not advocating the use of drugs while pregnant or at any other time, but I do see abortion as the greater of the evils.

Killing is killing. Either way, the baby did not deserve the death brought upon him/her. It may have been the mother's choice to kill her baby, but when does the unborn child have a say? Do you think if the child could speak, the child would chose life over death?

If I were you, I would google the video of the 12 week old baby screaming on a sonogram during an abortion procedure. Not only can you see the infant's mouth open in a terrifying scream when the suction in placed on his/her body, you can see the baby moving away from it as it enters the mother's uterus. The story that goes along with it illustrates how heart-wrenching abortion can be for the mother as well as the unborn baby.

[Limbo]

If I were you, I would google the video of the 12 week old baby screaming on a sonogram during an abortion procedure. Not only can you see the infant's mouth open in a terrifying scream when the suction in placed on his/her body, you can see the baby moving away from it as it enters the mother's uterus. The story that goes along with it illustrates how heart-wrenching abortion can be for the mother as well as the unborn baby.

I don't think I could watch a video like that as I can't stand to see children of any age being harmed. It just makes me feel sick in my guts. I am already pro-life anyway, so I don't need to see it. For those who think the fetus is just "tissue", I think this would change their minds. If you have a link, post it, and dare any pro-choicers to view it. This is the reality of what abortion is. Abortionists use sugar coated terms like "product of conception" or "tissue" to describe the fetus, but it is much more than that.

[Renaschelle]

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=16616146

Here is the link to the Silent Scream video. I recommend you watch this if you are pro choice and if you are pro life because it will just reaffirm your beliefs.

[yee-haw]

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=16616146

Here is the link to the Silent Scream video. I recommend you watch this if you are pro choice and if you are pro life because it will just reaffirm your beliefs.

i watched that video!.....DAMN!:mad:

[Renaschelle]

i watched that video!.....DAMN!:mad:

I guess now pro choicers can see how people can be pro life! Everytime I look at my daughter, I couldn't imagine someone killing a baby. The love a child has for a parent is like no other.

[yee-haw]

I guess now pro choicers can see how people can be pro life! Everytime I look at my daughter, I couldn't imagine someone killing a baby. The love a child has for a parent is like no other.

I don't know how to comment.... damn! that video changed my thinking.:(

[General Septem]

Isn't it the mother's choice to do drugs while she is pregnant? Both are harmful to the unborn baby, but abortion kills the baby, while drugs cause addiction at birth among other things. I am not advocating the use of drugs while pregnant or at any other time, but I do see abortion as the greater of the evils.

Killing is killing. Either way, the baby did not deserve the death brought upon him/her. It may have been the mother's choice to kill her baby, but when does the unborn child have a say? Do you think if the child could speak, the child would chose life over death?

If I were you, I would google the video of the 12 week old baby screaming on a sonogram during an abortion procedure. Not only can you see the infant's mouth open in a terrifying scream when the suction in placed on his/her body, you can see the baby moving away from it as it enters the mother's uterus. The story that goes along with it illustrates how heart-wrenching abortion can be for the mother as well as the unborn baby.

If a woman gives birth to a drug-addicted kid, she has committed a crime against the baby that does fall under the jurisdiction of the government, because the baby is no longer inside of her body.

The point I'm trying to make you understand us that the issue of abortion is not the question of right or wrong. It is what the government can rightly enforce. To ban abortion and enforce the ban would be a violation of the woman's body and an infringement of her privacy and self-ownership.

I have no interest in watching that video. It is not relevant to my argument. I commend you for being pro-life, but when you attempt to take away other women's choice, it becomes a violation of their rights. Right or wrong, it is not a choice you can make for anyone.

I also think it's pretty sick to introduce evidence with the sole intention of playing on people's emotions. There is nothing factual that can be derived from such a thing, because the fetus's reaction could have been little more than a reflex. Also, most abortions are performed long before what you described is even possible.

[MrJim]

Frankly, it was a waste of my time to begin with, or I'd have put more time and thought into it. Apparently I put more thought than you did, though, because even I didn't sink down to the old "brainwashed" argument.

It's kind of unfortunate that abortion is a topic that two adults can't disagree on without it getting personal.

I believe it was YOU that dove into a brainwashing speech... "I was so incredibly brainwashed by religion that I honestly thought it would be justifiable to base all US law on the bible and force people to go to church and shit..." Honestly, if you thought that your religion rallied support for a totalitarian state of government, you weren't that bright to begin with.

I still think you're cool and everything, but when you're wrong, you're wrong. You don't know the feeling of being a parent, if you did you might understand why topics like abortion can get extremely personal.

BTW:


...I'm talking about real feminists, like Susan B. Anthony. You may or may not know this, but she was very actively pro-life. She tried to advance women as women, embracing the differences between men and women and bringing out the woman's finest traits - most of which are maternal instincts. She was against abortion because she knew that even if a man would violently rape a woman and impregnate her against her will, that a woman can rise higher than that, not perpetuating the violence. She knew that having a child concieved by rape is the ultimate display of not only getting over the rape, but turning it around and shoving it right back in the rapist's face.

So here's to Susan B. Anthony, Feminists for Life, and others like them - I'm sorry these hairy bull-dyke "feminists" had to ruin your name.

Great post. Profound and meaningful. Even Maddox might be a bit impressed, since he HATES feminism.

Sooo.... planning on running on the republican ballot alongside John McLame? I'd believe it...

[Limbo]

If a woman gives birth to a drug-addicted kid, she has committed a crime against the baby that does fall under the jurisdiction of the government, because the baby is no longer inside of her body.

The point I'm trying to make you understand us that the issue of abortion is not the question of right or wrong. It is what the government can rightly enforce. To ban abortion and enforce the ban would be a violation of the woman's body and an infringement of her privacy and self-ownership.

I have no interest in watching that video. It is not relevant to my argument. I commend you for being pro-life, but when you attempt to take away other women's choice, it becomes a violation of their rights. Right or wrong, it is not a choice you can make for anyone.

I also think it's pretty sick to introduce evidence with the sole intention of playing on people's emotions. There is nothing factual that can be derived from such a thing, because the fetus's reaction could have been little more than a reflex. Also, most abortions are performed long before what you described is even possible.

When you can see the awesome beauty of a child, then you have really become a complete man IMO. For a lot of guys it takes having a child of their own to trigger that.

[Limbo]

http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=16616146

Here is the link to the Silent Scream video. I recommend you watch this if you are pro choice and if you are pro life because it will just reaffirm your beliefs.

I just can't bring myself to watch it, but thanks for posting it.

My sister-in-law saw a young child being run over and killed by a car. That has haunted her for her whole life. Of course, the loss of a child is something that parents never get over. Taking the life of an unborn child goes against everything that is good and right and says a lot about us as a society that we accept such things as "normal"

[MrJim]

I don't know how to comment.... damn! that video changed my thinking.:(

Which was.... :confused:

[WhiteRaven]

""I also think it's pretty sick to introduce evidence with the sole intention of playing on people's emotions. There is nothing factual that can be derived from such a thing, because the fetus's reaction could have been little more than a reflex."

It's not that sick. Emotion and logic are meant to be used together, therefore one should at least be aware of how seeing such a thing would affect them. Now I would probably laugh if I actually watched that video, but I'm a pretty violent person, I also laughed in Monty Python and the Meaning of Life, when that one guy's got forcibly removed. I also have to say I probably would not laugh if it were my kid.

"I believe it was YOU that dove into a brainwashing speech... "I was so incredibly brainwashed by religion that I honestly thought it would be justifiable to base all US law on the bible and force people to go to church and shit..." Honestly, if you thought that your religion rallied support for a totalitarian state of government, you weren't that bright to begin with."

Actually, Renaschelle asked him about that in the first place.

[General Septem]

I believe it was YOU that dove into a brainwashing speech... "I was so incredibly brainwashed by religion that I honestly thought it would be justifiable to base all US law on the bible and force people to go to church and shit..." Honestly, if you thought that your religion rallied support for a totalitarian state of government, you weren't that bright to begin with.

I never used it as an argument, or accused anyone of it, I was explaining what had changed in my stance on abortion.


I still think you're cool and everything, but when you're wrong, you're wrong. You don't know the feeling of being a parent, if you did you might understand why topics like abortion can get extremely personal.

My mother was heavily pro-choice.


Great post. Profound and meaningful. Even Maddox might be a bit impressed, since he HATES feminism.

I hate feminism too. I don't see your point.

[hitekredneck]

tho i disagree with his stance, i understand what gen's trying to say...abortion shouldn't be legislated at a federal level, but local instead...i despise the abortion issue because nobody can look at it objectively and use common sense...i disagree with abortion on the whole, but understand that it isn't my place to make the decision for others...i believe wholeheartedly that the father of said child (i hate the word fetus, as it can become nothing but a child if allowed to live) has every right to be involved in the decision, but has little recourse if he disagrees with the mother's decision...regardless of how rare it happens, i understand abortion in cases where the mother's health is jeapordized, where the child is tested and found to be severely disabled or malformed, when rape or incest is involved...this doesn't mean that i support abortion for any reason, it just means i understand women making this choice under those situations, and those situations alone...using abortion as birth control is extremely stupid and unfair to all involved....as for the vid called silent scream, i've seen it, and in my mind, the child suffers horribly :cool:

[General Septem]

Using abortion as birth control is extremely stupid. It's irresponsible to treat life that way, it's harmful to the mother, and very expensive. I support the choice but I still think it's incredibly irresponsible to not use sensible measures of protection.

I also think it's a very bad idea to use drugs like crack cocaine. I just don't support governmental measures to ban its use. Anyone stupid enough to do it and not smart enough to check into rehab deserves their fate. And if it were legal, the crime associated with drugs would disappear, expensive agencies like the DEA that just serve to bloat the government would be dissolved, and the addicted could check into the hospital and receive care without having to worry about being arrested for it.

[WhiteRaven]

and the tax money that goes to maintaining prisons would decrease.

[chihuahua236]

i can tell u all that abortions are wrong no matter what my wife agrees and I gotta tell you having a child is the greatest experience any person should know. of course it doesnt bother me if the person makes a mistake or is raped without wanting the child, i just think abortions are wrong but im ok if u have 1.

[yee-haw]

Which was.... :confused:

i guess up until the point i watched the video i was pro choice but not after seeing that ! she done a good thing by posting that, now i view abortion different!:mad:

[Harayinge]

lol my camp commander would flip if he knew I was on this site but damn abortion I dont really care its your body.

[MrJim]

Quick question - what is 'Cap' Lejeune :p

[Harayinge]

Quick question - what is 'Cap' Lejeune :p

lol i left out the m

[darknsfals1]

Abortion is stupid.

Stupid little teenage whores, go fuck with anything that can fit in them; and they end up getting knocked up. Oh noes! They aren't ready for the child, they have their whole lives ahead of the, blah blah.

Abortion should be illegal. If you get an abortion, you should be put on death roll for murder.

ONLY time you should have an abortion, is if you know for a fact, 100%, if you had that kid you would surely die from giving birth. Other wise, suck it up and push the runt out.

i agree with the stupid whore teenagers sleeping with everyone COMPLETLY, but who the FUCK would want such a stupid little fucker to produce offspring? Lets remember that the whore will give birth to a HUMAN BEING and not a really annoying toy. We as people need to be concerned for the child. Let me be quite frank. I HATE DUMBASS TEENAGE WHORES, but what i hate more is DUMBASS TEENAGE WHORES AND THEIR STUPID FUCKIN unruly children remember humans as a whole need more fuctioning brains not more glitchy raised fucked up kids to become our unruly fucked up adults. Its bad enough were stuck with the fucked up whore teenagers life. This world need less fucked up people not more of them.

[WhiteRaven]

i agree with the stupid whore teenagers sleeping with everyone COMPLETLY, but who the FUCK would want such a stupid little fucker to produce offspring? Lets remember that the whore will give birth to a HUMAN BEING and not a really annoying toy. We as people need to be concerned for the child. Let me be quite frank. I HATE DUMBASS TEENAGE WHORES, but what i hate more is DUMBASS TEENAGE WHORES AND THEIR STUPID FUCKIN unruly children remember humans as a whole need more fuctioning brains not more glitchy raised fucked up kids to become our unruly fucked up adults. Its bad enough were stuck with the fucked up whore teenagers life. This world need less fucked up people not more of them.

That may be the best argument for abortion I have ever heard... :p