Spooky ^^

[silvery moon]

Hmm.. I'm not sure if there's already a topic about ghosts and spirits, but I made one anyway
So, does anyone in here believe in spirits? Cause I don't.. Really, I mean, it's such bullshit.. And so is that Char lady.. She's trying to take over Holland with her ABC's and it's just total crap:rolleyes:

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Not to say that I DO believe in them....but I've never seen any strong evidence that they DON'T exist.....:eek:

[silvery moon]

Hehe, but isn't it impossible to come up with evidence that something 'doesn't' exist?

I mean, I might as well make up stories about purple gnomes with wings and claim that they do exist, because no-one has ever found any evidence that shows that they don't exist.

Cause if something doesn't exist, how can you find any evidence concerning that thing? You can't. And you can't find any evidence that shows that it DOES exist, either. Not any real and not-photoshopped evidence, anyway :p

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

So then how do you explain the stuff that happens in people's everyday lives that is inexplicable?

[silvery moon]

Well, just because people can't explain something, that doesn't mean that it can't be explained. It's just that even though people are, looking at intelligence, way ahead of other animals, our knowledge and abilities are still limited. Yet we do want explanations, even though we can't have them, and that's why we sometimes make them up. ;)

[General Septem]

It depends on how you define "spirit".Do I believe in little monsters that you can't see that throw things around? No. Do I believe it's possible for a human who has died to interact with the physical world? No. However, I believe all of us have a spirit, or if you want to call it a soul, and the proof of that is the fact that we know right and wrong, and we can react to good and evil emotionally. But do I believe in that whole popular sci-fi/horror/etc portrayal of "ghosts"? No.

[silvery moon]

We 'think' we know right and wrong. We've got rules for what's good and what's evil. But I don't think we truly know right and wrong, I consider it an opinion.

[General Septem]

We 'think' we know right and wrong. We've got rules for what's good and what's evil. But I don't think we truly know right and wrong, I consider it an opinion.
Well is there any doubt in your mind that murdering someone is wrong? Do you think you are capable of doing such a thing, or would your conscience stop you? Just because people ignore their conscience doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[silvery moon]

A conscience is not fixed. It's filled with what you've learned is right and wrong.
If you're living in our modern society, where murder is wrong, and you're about to kill someone, your conscience will bother you.
If you're living in a society where it's wrong to, say, eat bananas, your conscience will bother you when you're about to eat a banana.
The thing is that the human brain is a system that can be programmed. It's not like you get born with knowledge of what's right and wrong, you adapt it from your environment.

[General Septem]

To a certain extent this is true, which is why education as to what's right and wrong is still important. As an example, the Jews would never eat pork, and if they did their conscience would bother them. But would it be the eating pork that bothered their conscience, or the fact that they would be disobeying God when He told them not to eat pork? As a Catholic, I do not believe that eating pork is against God's commands. Therefore, my conscience doesn't bother me. But I still think the conscience is "fixed" in that we are loyal to what we believe to be good, and feel guilty about what we believe to be bad. It's complicated to explain.

I'm still not sure what you mean by spirit though.

[Zzyzx]

Do angels believe in ghosts?

[silvery moon]

What's that supposed to mean?

And you know what, General Septem, I'm not sure what I mean by spirit. I guess I mean both the little monsters, the souls and the popular sci-fi ghosts. Just the whole package.. And personally, I believe in none of them

[jonilaine]

I believe in spirits not because I have any proof or because I am some kind of weird person..I believe in them just because most people don't and I like to watch them get riled when I tell them that I do. Tis funny!

[General Septem]

What's that supposed to mean?

And you know what, General Septem, I'm not sure what I mean by spirit. I guess I mean both the little monsters, the souls and the popular sci-fi ghosts. Just the whole package.. And personally, I believe in none of them
Do you believe there's a difference between you and a machine? I'm talking about the fact that you don't just process information, you experience it; you internalize it and react to it emotionally. What a machine goes through does not matter because the machine does not really experience any of it; they're here for our benefit. I'm talking about consciousness. That's soul.

[jonilaine]

Do you believe there's a difference between you and a machine? I'm talking about the fact that you don't just process information, you experience it; you internalize it and react to it emotionally. What a machine goes through does not matter because the machine does not really experience any of it; they're here for our benefit. I'm talking about consciousness. That's soul.

I actually agree!

[silvery moon]

I never said I believe a machine and a human being are the same thing, and I actually do agree with you even though I wouldn't call it 'soul', but many people think of a 'soul' as something that flies through heaven, something that can enter a human body and leave it. I even had a total stranger coming up to me, saying that my soul was very old and special and blablabla. That I don't believe.

[General Septem]

I never said I believe a machine and a human being are the same thing, and I actually do agree with you even though I wouldn't call it 'soul', but many people think of a 'soul' as something that flies through heaven, something that can enter a human body and leave it. I even had a total stranger coming up to me, saying that my soul was very old and special and blablabla. That I don't believe.
Well your soul is created at conception. But after that it doesn't die. But it's not like a million years old or whatever; it's as old as you are.

[silvery moon]

Yeah.. But that's only a way of looking at it, right? A soul doesn't have a fixed, proven meaning. Everybody thinks of it differently.

It's just that your explanation makes more sense to me than some other peoples' explanations about it 'being a magical thing that flies through the sky and never dies and blablabla'

Still, I don't believe in a soul.. Your theory is pretty convincing, but I just don't believe in any sort of soul
But that's just because I don't quite understand it.. It's way too vague for me..

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Yeah.. But that's only a way of looking at it, right? A soul doesn't have a fixed, proven meaning. Everybody thinks of it differently.

It's just that your explanation makes more sense to me than some other peoples' explanations about it 'being a magical thing that flies through the sky and never dies and blablabla'

Still, I don't believe in a soul.. Your theory is pretty convincing, but I just don't believe in any sort of soul
But that's just because I don't quite understand it.. It's way too vague for me..

The basic concept of the soul is that we humans don't want to believe that our existance is limmited to some time on earth less than 100 years. We all know that we are going to die, more than likely before we've been here 100 years, and we want to believe that there's something beyond that. The soul is what makes that possible. Many times people believe things just because they want to, they like the outcome of the belief much more than its anticedant.

[silvery moon]

That thought was going through my head as well, though I was afraid to speak my mind. I do, however, think the same thing goes for religion. We refuse to accept the truth about what we really are, because our precious brain doesn't fit our faith.

[General Septem]

That thought was going through my head as well, though I was afraid to speak my mind. I do, however, think the same thing goes for religion. We refuse to accept the truth about what we really are, because our precious brain doesn't fit our faith.
Religion makes perfect sense to me. And I'm smarter than you could ever imagine.

[silvery moon]

No, I've been observing you and know just about how smart you are. But this does not merely involve intelligence. On the other hand, perhaps intelligence is what gave us people our beliefs. Like I said, our faith does not measure up to our brain, or our 'soul', as some may say

[General Septem]

Observing me in the stalker sense or attempting to judge my intelligence based on what I write on some bullshit (literally) forum?

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

That thought was going through my head as well, though I was afraid to speak my mind. I do, however, think the same thing goes for religion. We refuse to accept the truth about what we really are, because our precious brain doesn't fit our faith.

Try seeing it from a different point of view. We explain things that are otherwise inexplicable with faith and religion. We have no proof that our basic religious beliefs are wrong, while we have plenty of examples that are easily explained by the faith, or religion. If we aren't certain, then why do we need to start getting so arogant and say that a god couldn't exist? It seems much more beneficial to go out on the limb of faith than the limb of the opposite. If you're wrong, which limb holds the worse fate when it breaks? Take a leap of faith and accept things that haven't yet fully been proven right.;)

[silvery moon]

Observing me in the stalker sense or attempting to judge my intelligence based on what I write on some bullshit (literally) forum?

Just the automatic way in which everybody observes everybody on this forum, but other than that you're smart I don't know, just like you have no idea who I am and what my potentials are. Let's keep it that way.

And BBO, I think you're right, because religion does explain the inexplicable, which makes things a lot easier. But on the other hand, science explains quite a lot too, though not nearly as much as religion does, but at least that is sure (or at least a lot more sure than religion) to be true. So that's why I've chosen not to make it easy on myself, but just to accept only the acceptable. I mean I'm cool with being just an organism on just a planet:D I don't have to be special or have to have a promising fate or anything like that.

But everybody can choose what works for them, I don't mind. As long as they don't go around saying that non-religious people are bad and that there'll be a monster who will kill all people who don't have faith in God and blablabla;)

[Paisleyspeaker]

The rose though it knows, is throatless and cannot say. And what are angles, but ghosts in drag.
Stan Rice


I grew up in Mass. , where history is everwhere, and the place you live in could well be over 100 years old. That said though I have felt things I could never explain I have never seen anything personally. My sister has, and it wasn't a human figure, but a glowing sphere of green light. Personally I want to believe in ghosts and an afterlife. But that is probably a knee jerk reaction to turning 30 this year and having to start to come to terms with my own mortality. I do think since you never hear of the ghost of someone who dies peacefully in their bed, that instead of peoples spirits most "ghosts" are echos of the energy released when a person dies or kills.

[General Septem]

Of course those "spirits" could be demons and the result of witches living in your house.

[Paisleyspeaker]

Oh General,
as a Catholic you probably really don't want to get me going on the subject of witches. In another thread the number of deaths in the name of God was discussed. This should be added to that as well as here. Most historical witches were not worhippers of Satan running around souring milk and having orgies with demons. They were midwifes and wise-women, followers of an anchient fertility relgion. They were killed by people within the Catholic church for being heretics. Then the church got greedy and started killing all sorts of people. Because they profitted from it. The condemned's property would become assets of the church. They even had to pay for their own torture and inprisonment. With each new person pulled in they would use torture to get more names. For the record as terrible as this is, I don't hold the modern Catholiic Church responsible, or modern catholics. But y'all get defensive anyway.
My sister believes it was my grandfather, who had died in that house, and the sphere went from my late grandmothers room to his ( he snored terribly so they slept in seperate rooms, she died about 30 years before he did, and he never remarried)

[Paisleyspeaker]

I know you were being sarcastic, but what's the fun of being on the bullshit site, if I don't bullshit.:p

[beelzebub]

I don't hold the modern Catholiic Church responsible, or modern catholics. But y'all get defensive anyway.

Why not? The Catholic did terrible things long ago. They do terrible things now. I hold them (and most religions) responsible for the stupidity that mankind has thought up. Instead of working to abate mans evil they have capitalized on it and dominated for years. Hypocrites!


My sister believes it was my grandfather, who had died in that house, and the sphere went from my late grandmothers room to his ( he snored terribly so they slept in separate rooms, she died about 30 years before he did, and he never remarried)

Why does it have to be that? Why couldn't she have imagined it? Did the "sphere" talk to her saying "I am your grandfather" or pull out a mini sphere that resembled his dentures?

[Paisleyspeaker]

hahaha no, no dentures, she thought that because she didn't freak out, and she freaks out at everything. :eek:
I don't fault the modern Catholic church and modern Catholics, because they themselves didn't do it. And I liked John Paul I found in him wisdom. Which for me is a big deal , because he was pope and I know what utter pricks popes usually are. But he was trying to put things right. So many lifetimes of wrongs couldn't be righted in just his lifetime, but the man gets and A for effort. And as for the Catholics whose beliefs haven't evolved since the dark ages, I will gleefully blame them individually.:D

[General Septem]

They were killed by people within the Catholic church for being heretics. Then the church got greedy and started killing all sorts of people. Because they profitted from it.
That's a rather cynical assumtion. Especially since the Salem witch trials were not conducted by Catholics (they were Puritans if I remember correctly).

[General Septem]

Why not? The Catholic did terrible things long ago. They do terrible things now. I hold them (and most religions) responsible for the stupidity that mankind has thought up. Instead of working to abate mans evil they have capitalized on it and dominated for years. Hypocrites!

I blame you for AIDS. Go figure.

What terrible things are you referring to, by the way? I mean the ones supposedly happening now.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

[QUOTE=beelzebub] The Catholic did terrible things long ago. They do terrible things now. I hold them (and most religions) responsible for the stupidity that mankind has thought up. Instead of working to abate mans evil they have capitalized on it and dominated for years. Hypocrites![QUOTE]


So do you only hold the church responsible or do you proclaim against its followers as well? Some of us go further than agreeing with what actions are being taken, and defend the beliefs. Don't try to spit in the face of God just because some of his followers don't agree with your lifestyle.

[Paisleyspeaker]

General , the Catholics did not persecute the Salem witches, but they wrote the manuals. There is a decent chance nothing would have happened in Salem (except for a lying brat getting her just come-upence) had the Puritans not just escaped a Europe that was so bloodsoaked. There were entire monastaries killed and destroyed for deviating slightly from the Catholic doctrine. The Spanish Inqusition lasted decades. The Puritians came here to escape pursecution for their own religios beliefs. The Catholic church set the bar for killing for God, when at the begining of the first crusade they told all the poor farmers that if they went and killed saracens they would be guaranteed a place in heaven. Thus legitmizing killing in the name of the lord, which was expanded to include not only saracens but all other non-believers. I am normally more of a polly anna about things, but the past actions of the Catholic Curch are so heinous that it's all I can do to not blame the current followers.
I understand how important a relatioinship with God is, and that some people need a lot of rules and everything spelled out for them, but really some parts of the official church doctrine are more like eccuminical mad-libs. things are claimed to be true that have no scriptural basis. If you want an example lets start with the Holy Trinity. Its was added at the council of NIcea ( Hence the nicean creed) by people who were raised in a pagan society and were doing what the roman and greeks did and adding local flavor to the faith to make it easier for the new converts to swallow. The scripture Obviously speaks of God, and his son Jesus, and the holy spirit. But the spirit is not named as a person but as a force, and Jesus is the son , not the same. And in the gospels he points out the diffrence, that it is his father's words, his father's will. The trinity was the maiden , mother , and crone and they were the basis of a neolithic fertility cult.:p

[General Septem]

Americans have as a country killed millions in the name of Americanism. Ever heard of the death penalty? Hiroshima? Nagasaki? Vietnam war? The attacks of 9/11? You need to chill out and get off our nuts about something a few of our possibly misguided members did hundreds of years ago, particularly since they had different views on negotiating and war back then.

As for Catholicism including things that are not in Scripture. Nothing goes against Scripture for one. Secondly, the Bible had to have been written by someone, right? If God could write the Bible through humans, then God can guide His religion through humans as well. Like the conference of Bishops in circa 200 AD, when they decided which books would be included in the Catholic Bible and which ones would not. Were they inspired? If they were inspired then, why couldn't they be inspired when they introduced other doctrine?

[Paisleyspeaker]

You are completly correct the Nationalism is the next biggest reason people kill each other en masse. And maybe I like being on your nuts.:p

[General Septem]

You are completly correct the Nationalism is the next biggest reason people kill each other en masse. And maybe I like being on your nuts.:p
I just hope the age of consent in Florida is 16, or you could be in a rather tight spot. ;)

[Paisleyspeaker]

I should have guessed from your perfect regurgitation of what you have been so lovingly spoonfed that you were a baby. I think the age of consent here is that low, but mine isn't. You would need more experience, and experimenting is better with someone your own age.

[General Septem]

I should have guessed from your perfect regurgitation of what you have been so lovingly spoonfed that you were a baby. I think the age of consent here is that low, but mine isn't. You would need more experience, and experimenting is better with someone your own age.
Ha. Hahaha.

[Paisleyspeaker]

I know your a mature 16 , who gets more ass than a toilet seat. haha Trust me it only gets better. what is good now won't hold a candle to what still lies before you.

[General Septem]

I know your a mature 16 , who gets more ass than a toilet seat. haha Trust me it only gets better. what is good now won't hold a candle to what still lies before you.
I'm actually 17, and I'm staying faithful to my future wife. The only reason I said the age of consent better be 16 is because nothing's ever an odd number.

[Paisleyspeaker]

But if your a good catholic, your still a virgin. Unless your state lets you marry that young.:p

[General Septem]

But if your a good catholic, your still a virgin. Unless your state lets you marry that young.:p
Like I said, I'm staying faithful to my future wife. So yes, I am a virgin. ;)

[Paisleyspeaker]

I am glad to hear that. For all my ragging, I do believe a strong faith, and clear picture of right and wrong will only help you in life. And the basic precepts of your church provide you with a straight ( literally) path that will keep you out of trouble. Just remeber Corinthians, and the responsibilities as well as rights in speaks of.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Like I said, I'm staying faithful to my future wife. So yes, I am a virgin. ;)


That's easier said than done. I promised myself that I would wait as well. But then, one night there was this one girl...plenty hot enough, and things kept on excelling, and she kept on begging....you can only say no to someone so many times:o

[General Septem]

That's easier said than done. I promised myself that I would wait as well. But then, one night there was this one girl...plenty hot enough, and things kept on excelling, and she kept on begging....you can only say no to someone so many times:o
My standards for girls are so unbelievably high that I doubt I'd ever come across that. :p

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

My standards for girls are so unbelievably high that I doubt I'd ever come across that. :p


Good for you, but I'm telling you -- I thought the same thing!

[General Septem]

Good for you, but I'm telling you -- I thought the same thing!
We all have to be careful I suppose. So thanks for the warning =D

[beelzebub]

I blame you for AIDS. Go figure.

What terrible things are you referring to, by the way? I mean the ones supposedly happening now.
HIV was probably caused by a HETEROSEXUAL Belgian doctor that used chimp organs to manufacture polio virus vaccinations. Then he used the serum to vaccinate hundreds of thousands of Congolese people. It is widely accepted that HIV started in the Congo because the first case of HIV was recorded iin Kinshasa, 1957.

Terrible things? Let me see.....

1) All your Popes
2) Spanish Inquisitions
3) Crusades
4) Pedophilic Priests
5) Pandering to evil Aristocracy
6) Most of the European Wars


Just to name a few...

[General Septem]

RE: HIV was probably caused by a HETEROSEXUAL Belgian doctor that used chimp organs to manufacture polio virus vaccinations. Then he used the serum to vaccinate hundreds of thousands of Congolese people. It is widely accepted that HIV started in the Congo because the first case of HIV was recorded in Kinshasa in 1957.

You're spreading it.

RE: 1) All your Popes

I'm not a Pope. And what about them?

RE: 2) Spanish Inquisitions

It was Catholic territory and they wanted the Muslims gone. Their perogative. Still, what does that have to do with me or any other Catholic alive today?

RE: 3) Crusades

Covered that.

RE: 4) Pedophilic Priests

I'm not a pedophile. I'm not even a priest. Also, that has absolutely nothing to do with Catholicism. In fact the Catechism specifically says that raping unconsenting underage boys is a sin, so I don't see what your problem with Catholicism is on the issue.

RE: 5) Pandering to evil Aristocracy

Can you put that in English for those of us who don't speak troll?

RE: 6) Most of the European Wars

What's wrong with war if it's for a just cause?

[regularjoe]

Obviously there are some but check out Muhammed's second wife... his influence was and is far wider than a priest.

[silvery moon]

What's wrong with war if it's for a just cause?
And what might that just cause be? God?
Anyway, no matter what the cause is and how just some people think it is, there'll always be people who don't think it's just at all, and who are losing their lives to those wars. Personally, I don't think there's any cause just enough to start a war for.

[Paisleyspeaker]

Silvery one is right , there really arn't any cause just enough to cause a war for, responding to anothers threats however could be considered just. The whole attack them before they can attack you logic will end up with everyone in the bushies little Axis of evil attacking us, and using our own deluded logic to explain it to the world. And the world will buy it, because we have been reckless and aggresive.
And general, you have offered up explanation for the crusades, but no one said it was sufficient. The real explantions are a little more complicated. The first crusade had to do with a lot more than "getting back our land" and in the periods of the crusades the church was split. There were "vaticans" and popes both in Italy and in France. in the 12 th century French king Philip the Fair killed two consecutive popes to get one in power who would do what he said without asking any questions. Some of the early Pope were little more than tools of the European Aristocracy. How can you explain around that ?

And your comment on wars is said with all the hawkishness of a young man whose mortality hasn't sunk in. Go spend some time at a VA hospital. Hang out with a few vietnam vets. Then come back and talk to me about war. I have friends that live everyday with scars both visible and not from that war. And when I look at my son, and think of him bleeding, dying on a battle field, calling out for me. And I really can't think of any reason worth his life. Except defending the lives of his family. Not defending some THING for someone else

[General Septem]

Here's how I explain it: I don't care what happened in the past because if they were right then they were acting within the Church. If they were wrong they were misguided. So it doesn't really matter; the Church is still good either way.

Wars can be for a just cause. If there's an extreme injustice going on in the world and you can easily stop it, then it is just to do so. Obviously you would have to make sure that the war ended as quickly as possible and with as few deaths as possible. Vietnam and Korea were different. First, they had no choice but to fight. Second, they were fighting Communism, which is not worth fighting over. Third, they both lasted a lot longer than they should've. It's almost as if the government was profiting off of the war so they made it seem as though they couldn't do anything abouit the length of it. Oh, wait.

[Paisleyspeaker]

I am not blaming the modern churh, I'll leave that to others. I just have issues with thigns being brushed under the carpet because they don't matter. It did, it does, but You can't change it. You do put your self forward as a mamber of this group and you will hear about what people think of the group. Your old enough that you are not just echoing your parents affilition , but your own. You believe, now you must stand for those beliefs. You just happened to state you allegience to a controversial group.

[silvery moon]

That first remark sounds like you just blindfolded yourself and refuse to accept that the Church has flaws as well.

Anyway, a cause being just is still a matter of opinion. You just said that Vietnam and Korea were different, because they were fighting communism, which is not a just cause. But some people may find communism a very just cause to fight over. And same goes for the extreme injustice going on in the world. You might think it's injustice, but others may disagree. And I don't think something can be 'easily stopped' if that involves a war and deaths. And saying that 'you need to make sure that the war ends as quickly as possible and with as few deaths as possible' is easier said than done. Most of the time this is underestemated.

[General Septem]

RE: I am not blaming the modern churh,

You can't blame the Church period. The Church is good. Period. If anyone within the Church does anything wrong, they are wrong, not the Church. Period.

[General Septem]

RE: And saying that 'you need to make sure that the war ends as quickly as possible and with as few deaths as possible' is easier said than done. Most of the time this is underestemated.

I said "as possible". If that turns out to be a long time and a lot of deaths, that's unfortunate. I'm just saying that you can't prolong the war for frivolous purposes.

The Church has no flaws. For example: "thou shall not murder". If anyone within the Church does commit murder, they are wrong, not the Church. If you wish to challenge whether the Church has flaws or not just go ahead and list every example you'd like me to shoot down for you. It's not some blind belief, it's blindingly obvious truth.

[Paisleyspeaker]

By your logic the Nazi party is blameless, it's members were just misguided. The KKK is a fine organization , they just have some real screwballs as members. Al Quida is really not all that bad, their members are just misguided. See where I am going? These groups were bad, the bad acts and thoughts came not from the bottom up , but from the top down. The things the Church did, were not done by random parishiners in east BumFuct but by the bishops, cardnals, and popes. The Church has also been blessed by good leadership this century and good things have flowed forth. This is part one, I will be back on to pelt you with a list of the men and their specific misdeeds if you persist in this notion that the church is blameless. It's doctrines stand on their own , and are not lessened by the acts of its officials. It's ideology is the same, freestanding. But the orgization is responsible for their actions. You do believe in the apostolic succesion right? Well for others just as holy is tranmitted from one leader to the next, so is everything that their predicesors have attached.

[General Septem]

No. The ideals of Nazism are to kill non-aryans. The ideals of the supposed Al-Qaeda are to invoke terror. The ideals of the KKK are to kill and terrorize blacks.

The ideals of Catholicism are to love God with all your heart, soul, and mind, and to love your neighbor as you love yourself.

See the difference?

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Yes, that's just like saying that Richard Nixon was the leader of our nation once, so every trait of his can be used to define every last American Patriot. Or maybe saying everyone who likes Michael Jackson's music must be a pedophile. It's wrong. Just because some of our leaders have set bad examples does not take away from the meaning of the doctrines they were supposed to uphold.

[Paisleyspeaker]

I get what your trying to say, but I think my point missed you. The stated purpose of each of these groups is good as well. The National Socalist Workers Party was created to better the life of the German working man after WWI ( and it did so, things didn't really get wonky until Hitlers second term) The KKK says it just wants to promote the unity purity of the white race, and AlQueda is defending their home lands and Holy places from us. EAch has a positive stated purpose, but each of them commits heinous acts. It's there acts that people think of when they think of them. And you wouldn't argue that it was just misguided members, and that because they stand for positive things they are blameless. And onthis list only the Nazi's have killed more than the Catholic Church.
And as for Nixon, we the americans did something, we impeached the bastard (we would have if he didn't resign) . We very publically said this fucker doesn't represent us. We didn't aplolgise. or say he didin't happen. or shouldn't count.

[General Septem]

The stated purpose of any group is good, but it doesn't mean shit when your ideals include murder, terror, theft, adultery, and so on. Whatever the KKK's mission was, their means were to kill blacks. Catholicism has no ideals or goals even remotely similar to this. Just because a few rogues decide to go off raping and killing people doesn't mean it has jack shit to do with us.

[Paisleyspeaker]

You are almost there General. I think you know from some of my other posts I am really not trying to change your relationship with god. Or say there is anything wrong with the doctrines of the Catholic Church, or that the bad behavior of the church lessens those doctrines. But you called me a cynic, little sheep, and I think history bears me out, and gives plenty of reasons.
These things you so easily brush off as the miss guided acts of a few members unable to tarnish Holy Mother Church; Pope John Paul II said "defaced the church" and he saw fit to publically apologise for. Specifically they are POLITICAL acts by an institution of FAITH. The church under some pitiful popes put the church in to areanas it didn't belong in. These acts were meant only to enlarge or consolidate power, or enrich the church. They had nothing. nothing to do with loving God. And could not possibly have less to do with loving your neighbor.
Before the first crusade, there was a sort of peace between the Muslims, Jews, and Christians. Pilgrims were allowed to move freely to Jerusalem. Then the Turks attacked the Byzantine Empire, notably Constatiople. Pope Urban II was asked for help. Initally Jerusalem was not involved, but when Urban sent him army, they didn't protect Constaninople, they took it , then tried for Jerusalem. When the third crusade finally took Jersalem they killed everyone in its walls.EVERYONE Muslim, Christian, Jew. Men, women, children. And it wasn't for treason, the slaughter happened as soon as the walls fell. There were no trials or investigations just blood running inches deep through the streets. The govornment put in power was just an extention of the European Aristocracy, not holy men.
The act was ordered by the leader, not some misguided member. And lets take a look at these leaders. In the 1974 years since ST. Peter there have been 264 popes, and another 50 or so anti-popes ( Popes not offically set in power, but who claimed that power and ruled over some region, or part of the church anyway)

[General Septem]

Again, I don't care. It has nothing to do with the Catholic Church, just the people who were in charge of it or members of it at the time. The Catholic Church says and always has said that murder and rape are wrong. When did I call you a cynic?

[Paisleyspeaker]

continued.. ( Sorry if I don't do this in peices my kids will hit a button, and I have to start agian.)

So 264 popes , they had an average reign of 7.4 years. With 24 reigning 1 year or less.
Pope Alexander VI bribed his way into the papcy, as a cardinal he fathered 7 illegitimate children, and immedialty after being made pope he had an affair with a married woman. General you are holier than he was.
Gregory XI started an Inquisition against Heritics in the counrty side as well as in the monastaries,
Gregory XIII had 50,000 Hugoenot killed in france.
Julius II sold indulgences.
Urban VII - tried Galileo for heresy for saying the earth was round and moved around the sun (which slays me because the earth being round is in the old testament, shouldn't they know that book better than me?)
Sixtus-sold indulgences for dead relatives, and started the Spanish Inqisition
Clement V- he was the cockboy for French king Phillip the Fair, and disbanded and killed the knights Templar so Phillip could steal their assests.
Innocent VI- tortured Franciscan monks
John XXII- sold indulgences, and even excommunicated a cardinal for not paying up
Clement VI - started and Inquisition.
John XII- was elected at 16yrs old at his deceased fathers wishes, even thoough he was addicted to hunting, hawking, and gambling and often immoral with women.
LeoXII- reinstated the anti-semitic rules cancelled by Napolean.

now I didn't include the Holocaust, because my research showed that Pope Pius XI helped save about 700,000 Jews by lying and hiding them. He also did write against the Nazi''s but then died before his message got out, and his succesor didn't release that encyclacal until much later, causing him to be unfairly blamed.
Most of this info came from CAtholic Encyclopedia on line, like the new Advent site. And they say that these men never taught false doctrine, and they probably didn't, I think they were too busy playing kings and getting laid.

They are the leaders, not the followers. And until John Pauls apology no one had stepped forward to call them out and distance the church from them. They weren't impeached like Nixon. Their acts were glossed over.

But tell me , what does torturing monks, and slaying thousands have to do with loving your neighbors? And what does setting up your own little fiefdom have to do with preaching Gods kingdom?

[General Septem]

But tell me , what does torturing monks, and slaying thousands have to do with loving your neighbors? And what does setting up your own little fiefdom have to do with preaching Gods kingdom?
Nothing. That's why said acts are not acts of Catholicism.

[Paisleyspeaker]

It seems like eons ago, when I first started to rant about the witch trials. Did you know that during the forced conversions here and abroad that many priceless documents and historical texts were burned to help people sever their ties with their former faiths. That we could understand much more of the Mayan hyroglyphic if the priest in Central America hadn't burned their books ?
really man I hva ehad a lot of fun debating this, you are one stubborn cus.

[Paisleyspeaker]

But they were commited by POPES, and you guys have that pesky little doctrine of Papal innfallibility.

[General Septem]

It seems like eons ago, when I first started to rant about the witch trials. Did you know that during the forced conversions here and abroad that many priceless documents and historical texts were burned to help people sever their ties with their former faiths. That we could understand much more of the Mayan hyroglyphic if the priest in Central America hadn't burned their books ?
really man I hva ehad a lot of fun debating this, you are one stubborn cus.
I'm not being stubborn. I find your accounts of history interesting. I'm just saying that whatever people within Catholicism have done, it doesn't matter, because murder, rape, adultery, theft, and so on are not acts of Catholicism.

[Paisleyspeaker]

You got me there. I think we agree that the doctrines of the church plainly speak againts those acts. But as a non-Catholic, particually one intersted in history as much as I am, when I think of the church, I think as much if not more of the things they have done. It is part of the outside face. I think John Paul II knew that, and that is one of the reasons he aplolgised. When the Church keeps only to its mandated tasks it excells, but when they wandered off task, which I outlined earlier, it makes the church look bad. And as I understand the position of Pope he is supposed to be Gods agent here on earth ( through Christ of course) when he mandates something, isn't that A Church mandate?

[General Septem]

But they were commited by POPES, and you guys have that pesky little doctrine of Papal innfallibility.
The Pope is not incapable of making mistakes. The Pope is only infallible when he says something Ex Cathedra, such as when he adds doctrine to the Church.

[General Septem]

You got me there. I think we agree that the doctrines of the church plainly speak againts those acts. But as a non-Catholic, particually one intersted in history as much as I am, when I think of the church, I think as much if not more of the things they have done. It is part of the outside face. I think John Paul II knew that, and that is one of the reasons he aplolgised. When the Church keeps only to its mandated tasks it excells, but when they wandered off task, which I outlined earlier, it makes the church look bad. And as I understand the position of Pope he is supposed to be Gods agent here on earth ( through Christ of course) when he mandates something, isn't that A Church mandate?
But you have to understand, when someone proverbially shits on someone in the name of the Church, he's not only shitting on them but the reputation of the Church and everyone who belongs to it as well. If anything you should be sympathetic.

[Paisleyspeaker]

But you have to understand, when someone proverbially shits on someone in the name of the Church, he's not only shitting on them but the reputation of the Church and everyone who belongs to it as well. If anything you should be sympathetic.


Honey, I think you finally are getting what I am saying. That is why in one of my first posts on the subject I made a disticntion between the modern and old Catholic church. The early Popes I talked about did shit on the reputation of the Church, and those who belonged to it at that time. They made them all look bad, especially since the members either didn't or couldn't speak out against them. That said, under the leadership of John Paul II the Church came up a great deal in the eyes of the world. The Church stayed true to it's mandates, acted as an institution of Faith, and gained respect of non-members. John Paul II was, I think, the most loved Pope next to St. Peter. He acknowledged the past mistakes made by the institution he so loved, and by that acknowledgement and his subsequential apology he brought the Church up in the eyes of the world. By looking critically at these things he made things better. Simple regurgitiation and lock step belief are often not the best things. Your faith will ultimatly be stronger for acknowledging the past, and working to make the Church you love stronger, working to make sure they never make those mistakes again. Sunlight and fresh air will kill the ailments that only fester when hidden.

Okay , I am stuck in Mommy mode. As the oldest in my family and a mother I can get stuck in a teacher mode. And I have more too add. I'm going to get personal here. If I remeber right you lost your mother years ago. You have an aunt that wants one some level to take her place, but comes on way , way too strong. I am guessing that she questions your father and his beliefs too much. It sounds like you love your dad very much, and as a result his beliefs. And it sounds like your fathers teachings are doing you very well. Even as a young man , there are things only a woman can teach you. God created woman to balance man, things we have/know that men don't. Standing by your faith is comendible, keep it up. But things that don't bend break. If your standards are too high , you will never find happiness. People are imperfect, but aknowledging imperfections can make love stronger. Remeber God loves us, as imperfect as we are. I incourage you to find a maternal figure you can trust and respect. Maybe a grandmother. I say these things because I have spent my life dealing with my mothers reaction to my grandmothers death when she was young, and the more we can learn from others pain, the less we have to hurt.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Are these tasks being done for the Church, or are they being done for the person's own good? In the case of molestation and the sort, it's obvious that they are only doing this for their own pleasure and not in the name of the Church. What about all these people that they've killed? I'm sure that some of it was done with the interest of the Church in mind, but it was done during different times with different understandings. So it's looked down upon now, but we have different moral beliefs and hindsight vision is always 20/20. In comparison, Hitler was doing everything he did for the sole purpose of power. The muslims do their killing for their selves as well, they have some twisted belief that this is a surefire way to get 20 Vestile Virgins in heaven if they kill themselves along with numerous innocents. They are doing these things in the name of their Religion, while we have some Popes and other religious leaders who have done things wrong, but many of these times they had no intent for it do be associated with the Church at all. The intent of the act is what truly counts. If you kill someone because you hate them with all your heart and want them to die, then you definately are one evil SOB. But if you kill this person by inadvertantly bumping into them while you're both amazing at the depth of the grand canyon, then this obviously was not your intent. Why should you be punished for it? And why should the Catholic Church be frowned upon for the act of one of its people who is not doing something in the name of the Church?

[General Septem]

Okay , I am stuck in Mommy mode. As the oldest in my family and a mother I can get stuck in a teacher mode. And I have more too add. I'm going to get personal here. If I remeber right you lost your mother years ago. You have an aunt that wants one some level to take her place, but comes on way , way too strong. I am guessing that she questions your father and his beliefs too much. It sounds like you love your dad very much, and as a result his beliefs. And it sounds like your fathers teachings are doing you very well.

...when did I say that? It's true, I just don't remember posting that on the forum here. :/

[silvery moon]

Well that's just scary ^^
I'm guessing you two met on another forum, only she had a different nickname or something?

[Paisleyspeaker]

I remeber you posting something about not knowing your mom that well because she had died, and you called your aunt something like a stalker psycho. The rest is me, sometimes I hear/read/feel the parts people don't say. I used to do incredible tarot readings. Freaked people out, because I wouldn't let them ask me questions, I would just give them the answers. But not sure of moral correctness of tarot now, so I have stopped. Don't think I'm psychic or anything, it's just something I do. People leave clues they are unaware of in all their exchanges. The honesty of the dialouge we have exchanged helps.

[Paisleyspeaker]

Paisleyspeaker is the only name I have ever been here under. I suppose it's fitting we are in a thread called spooky.

[silvery moon]

Hehe, that's cool :D (and spooky)
Though tarrot readers don't seem to like me.. They're always wrong about me

[General Septem]

Ah, ok. I do seem to remember saying something about my aunt stalking me now.

You're better off not participating in divination. As Christians we believe that you're speaking to spirits, but that they're really demons. For example, very often kids will be playing an Ouija board and ask to whom they are speaking. The board will say something like "beelzebub".

[Paisleyspeaker]

I have travelled far on my spirirtual path, and am now exploring Christianity. I was christened and raised Episcopalian. Rejected that for a while explored other faiths and philosophies. I realized I just could'nt shake Jesus. I was comparing these other religions to Christianity, so I decided to give it another look. That's why the whole tarot conflict. I never thought I was talking to anyone through the cards. It's nothing like a oujii board, or seance. The cards are very simular to the modern deck, but they have one more suite. The Major Archana. The minor cards, four suites numerologically represent a journey through disappointment or failure through to redemptioin and contentment. each suite is supossed to represent an element, and a part of human nature, earth- money and greed materialism fruitfull labour etc etc. The major cards are archetypal images. Together in patterns they paint a picture. They relate to each other and the question and questioner. I did notice that most people who want readings are looking for permission to do something. Often something they know they shouldn't do.

[General Septem]

But like an Ouija board, it's assumed that some kind of supernatural being was "stacking the deck" so as to provide what would be assumed to be the correct answer, right?

[silvery moon]

I don't see the connection between spirits and tarrot readers.
All I believe in is that people who can tell personal stuff about people simply have a higher developed right part of the brain, which enables them to detect emotion quicker than other people. They're more sensitive to it. Or they've simply studied psychology and are good at analysing people :P

Cause you know, I think the brain is a system that can be analysed if you know how the system works.

[Paisleyspeaker]

Spirits setting the deck. Not really. It might be like that for some people. For me the cards are more like mirror of the person who I am reading for. I am not sure there is a wrong order. I always took it more like a snap shot. You and I can look into the same picture and see diffrent things. And I pick up peoples tells very quickly, I look at them while they look in the mirror.
I don't believe the cards were created as a divination tool. I have read some very interesting books that suggest that they were created to hide a story and if you look at the Major Archana's imagry it tells a mythic tale. Starting with the fool heading ofo on a journey of faith. If you look at the art of the oldest and best known deck Rider-Waite you see him, his "hobo" bag on his sholders about to step off a cliff. Hence a journey of faith, for there is no fear on his face, he believes he will be suported. It is supposed to have to do with the gnostic gospels.

[General Septem]

Interesting. So for you it's kind of like looking into a picture and seeing what your mind picks out amongst the scenery that reminds you of the person for whom you are reading?

[Paisleyspeaker]

More like I watch them look into the snapshot, and watch what they look at. Whether they stare at the fuzzy bunny or headless horseman can tell you a lot.

[Ape-Shit]

[QUOTE=silvery moon] does anyone in here believe in spirits?

Yes, I do. They do exist.

A few years back, I had in my possession a very old Silver Dollar. I kept this Dollar in the top dresser drawer in my bedroom. It rested their for years. One night I awoke only to see a young lady searching in my top dresser drawer. I couldn't believe my eyes. She must have sensed that I was watching her, she turned and looked straight at me with eyes cold as steel and then slowly vanished. My only conclusion is that perhaps she was murdered for the coin and now was trying to get it back. I still have the coin but she has never returned to this day. Perhaps, she still comes and goes while I sleep, but that night was very, very real, it actually happened.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Well, I hate to be so straight forward, but this experience only really gives people the idea that you are at some level of insanity. I've had some dreams that were "very, very real" but I've been able to realize that they were dreams, even if they ended just as I woke up. I'd be surprised if this is not what was the case in your example Ape.

[Ape-Shit]

I really don't give a shit what you think Brains! I don't go around insulting you with names or defamation of character, that's so childish, Grow Up....!

ps: "IT'S STILL, NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS"! Plus you're dead wrong on that subject!

[General Septem]

Maybe she was just a swift robber and she was looking for some expensive booty in your dresser. :D

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I really don't give a shit what you think Brains! I don't go around insulting you with names or defamation of character, that's so childish, Grow Up....!


You think that it's childish to think that a person who claims to have seen a dead woman ransacking his dresser is insane? If that's the case then I'd safely wager that well over 75% of the world's adult population is childish.

[beelzebub]

I've had some dreams that were "very, very real" but I've been able to realize that they were dreams, even if they ended just as I woke up.

Same with me. I don’t believe in ghosts. I have had some experiences in the past that were the result of lucid dreaming. When I was in the Peace Corps we had to take mefloquine (malaria prophylactic). It is well known and studied that this preventative drug can cause some people to have weird dreams and even hallucinations.

I was sleeping in a room when I felt someone coming in. I "opened my eyes" to see a shadow figure walk into the room and sat on the adjacent bed. I knew this was "Satan" and it said "How did your Grandmother die? How did she die?" …followed by sinister laughing. Then I woke up.

Chemicals can cause you to see things. Some people have can have different mental wiring. You can dream things and not remember they are dreams. Stress can cause you to hallucinate. Some people lie - not acussing anyone here of that.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I was sleeping in a room when I felt someone coming in. I "opened my eyes" to see a shadow figure walk into the room and sat on the adjacent bed. I knew this was "Satan" and it said "How did your Grandmother die? How did she die?" …followed by sinister laughing. Then I woke up.


You just identified yourself as the devil in the last post I read. Aren't these two one in the same?:p

[beelzebub]

You just identified yourself as the devil in the last post I read. Aren't these two one in the same?:p

Silly.......

Beelzebub is just for fun! I dont believe in the devil or god or angels or anything other than everyday existence.
I think that they are interesting concepts. A fun way to look at existance, but nothing more.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Silly.......

Beelzebub is just for fun! I dont believe in the devil or god or angels or anything other than everyday existence.
I think that they are interesting concepts. A fun way to look at existance, but nothing more.


That's too bad. Just be prepared for G-S's retort to your beliefs!:eek:

[General Septem]

Beelzebub is just for fun! I dont believe in the devil or god or angels or anything other than everyday existence.
Technically you believe in their non-existence. It's the Agnostics that don't believe. ;)

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

:rolleyes: ^^Right on cue^^:rolleyes:

[General Septem]

:rolleyes: ^^Right on cue^^:rolleyes:
That wasn't a retort, it was a correction. ;)

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

:rolleyes: Call it what you will, it was still you picking a fight with beelzebub over a religious issue.

[General Septem]

But that's what the forum is for, no?

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Yep. All that I'm saying is that I knew you couldn't resist....

[General Septem]

Well it's either here or at my job, and my most likely future job will be near lots of sharp objects. :D

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

You might not want to do it at all then. You'll eventually get so caught up in it that you're doing it without thought, no matter where you are. Sooner or later one of those sharp objects is going to end up where it doesn't belong!:eek:

[General Septem]

Nah, I'm good at keeping a cool head. Things come up and I just say to myself, "let it go, I can make a thread on Bullshit.com :D"

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Anyways, this thread was about spirits and ghosts. I say that they exist only in our imaginations. However, some people have trouble realizing the difference from their imagination and real life, which is why they believe that they do exist.

[General Septem]

Well it depends on what you mean by "spirit". If you mean the spirit of the dead, they no longer exist in this plane of existance. A human spirit can only exist in the spiritual world unless it resides in its body, which allows the spirit to interact with the physical world.

Then there are angels, which exist only in spirit but can interact with the physical world while still in spiritual form. Angels wouldn't obviously throw things around to torment people, but demons (fallen angels) might be able to, I'm not sure. I know they usually wouldn't since it would prove their existence (and consequently, God's existence).

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

And yet that's all heresay dependant on your religion. I'm going to need more factual arguments.

[General Septem]

Well on more than one occasion, people will be playing Ouija or something, and they'll ask who they're talking to and it'll say Satan or Beelzebub (lol imagine that) or something. And people have been possessed by demons as a result of playing ouija, which is kind of weird.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I don't know...in my experiences the Ouiji board has either not at all worked or was simply being controlled completely by one of the two people. Just a gag to play on your friends.

[beelzebub]

Technically you believe in their non-existence. It's the Agnostics that don't believe. ;)

That’s different. I have always thought of agnostics as "those that don’t know" and are comfortable with that. Atheists as those that don’t believe there in religious belief.

To be honest; I defiantly do not believe in god. However I could never prove there isn't a god. That’s just it though isn't it? Atheists don’t have any faith and deists do faith.

To be accurate. I really don’t know why we exist and I find it amazing. But I do not believe that anyone else knows better than I do (about this specific topic).

[General Septem]

But you believe there is no God. That's what I'm getting at.

[beelzebub]

Well it depends on what you mean by "spirit". If you mean the spirit of the dead, they no longer exist in this plane of existance.

So what evidence do you have for this?


A human spirit can only exist in the spiritual world unless it resides in its body, which allows the spirit to interact with the physical world.

Again.. evidence? This must be just your ideas and impressions.

[beelzebub]

But you believe there is no God. That's what I'm getting at.

Ok that’s right. but.... I would say that I really don’t think there is a god but I cannot prove it.
However; I believe that if there is a god it is defiantly not the juedo-xtian god, or any other definition. Get me?

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

However; I believe that if there is a god it is defiantly not the juedo-xtian god, or any other definition. Get me?

I agree with you in part there. I believe that there is a God. It would be arogant to detest otherwise since such a large majority of the world's population is CERTAIN that there is a God. However, because so many people are certain that different religions are the right one, so much so that they're worth killing for, that no one religion has things laid out perfectly. However, it is entirely possible that the Judeo-xtian God or some other definition is the right definition. I prefer to live by morals that I know any just God would be in favor of.

[beelzebub]

I believe that there is a God. It would be arogant to detest otherwise since such a large majority of the world's population is CERTAIN that there is a God.

Is that arrogance? Just because a minority disagrees with the majority they would be considered arrogant? I just thought that we were different and that eventhough we are different our opinion is still valuable.

bandwagon fallacy: concluding that an idea has merit simply because many people believe it or practice it. (e.g., Most people believe in a god; therefore, it must prove true.) Simply because many people may believe something says nothing about the fact of that something. For example many people during the Black plague believed that demons caused disease. The number of believers say nothing at all about the cause of disease. Furthermore those that disagreed were not arrogant they just saw things differently.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

It's arrogance because you also have no proof to the anticedant. Granted, there is little proof to the claim, the fact that it is also the majority opinion it would be arrogant to state that everyone else is wrong with nothing more than an opinion of your own. It was not arrogant that certain people thought the world was round centuries ago, because they had proof to support their claims such as when you watch a ship sail out into the sea it disapears over the curve that you witness in the distance yet it returns safely instead of falling off the Earth as people had claimed would happen.

There is no proof against the existance of God, and there is no advantage to believing that God does not exist. On the contrary, there is evidence that supports the existance of God and according to most religions a person will benefit from believing. Until you come up with good evidence to support your claim, I see absolutely no reason to refute it completely.

[beelzebub]

It's arrogance because you also have no proof to the anticedant. Granted, there is little proof to the claim, the fact that it is also the majority opinion it would be arrogant to state that everyone else is wrong with nothing more than an opinion of your own.

Arrogance - The act or habit of arrogating, or making undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree

I am not making them in an overbearing manner. My claims are just as exorbitant as theirs. My claims do not make me more important than theirs. Therefore it is not arrogant. You are not using the word arrogant correctly.


There is no proof against the existence of God, and there is no advantage to believing that God does not exist. On the contrary, there is evidence that supports the existance of God and according to most religions a person will benefit from believing.

I see many examples on this forum of how believing in a god can be damaging. It pollutes logic and reason with mystical superstition. The belief in god and the religion that surrounds is the cause of most of the wars in this world. Religion has been the foundation for illogical and irrational explanations of phenomenon that have negatively impacted human kind. Due to religions resistance to change these miasmic explanations have been difficult to remove and as a result harmed much more than helped.


Until you come up with good evidence to support your claim, I see absolutely no reason to refute it completely.
I'll talk about this later.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Arrogance - The act or habit of arrogating, or making undue claims in an overbearing manner; that species of pride which consists in exorbitant claims of rank, dignity, estimation, or power, or which exalts the worth or importance of the person to an undue degree

I am not making them in an overbearing manner. My claims are just as exorbitant as theirs. My claims do not make me more important than theirs. Therefore it is not arrogant. You are not using the word arrogant correctly.

I thought that we were going to stop focusing on semantics and actually debate. Arrogance is the best word that I can think for the situation and I'm sure that you understand what I mean when I use it. Let's not fight about what the word means if the message is understood.




I see many examples on this forum of how believing in a god can be damaging. It pollutes logic and reason with mystical superstition. The belief in god and the religion that surrounds is the cause of most of the wars in this world.

Not if you don't let it. I believe in God but don't let my beliefs overrule logical precedence. I would never start a war over any of this because my morals say that there is no acceptable reason to murder people and because God in my understanding does not want us to kill each other for any reason, especially him. Believing is only damaging if you let it be. Not believing is damaging regardless of what you allow for, just so long as you are wrong. Whether or not you're wrong, believing cannot dammage you as long as you don't allow it to.



I'll talk about this later.

I'm waiting.

[General Septem]

RE: I see many examples on this forum of how believing in a god can be damaging.

Maybe if your God is Hitler or something.


RE: It pollutes logic and reason with mystical superstition.

Not my God. The doctrine I follow doesn't just make moral sense but logical sense as well. Of course God created logic, so that's only to be expected.


RE: The belief in god and the religion that surrounds is the cause of most of the wars in this world.

If the war is just, then that's not necessarily a bad thing. There was no way we could stand by and watch Hitler murder hundreds of thousands of people and not do anything about it. Since our going to war with Germany stopped Hitler, this was a very just cause. The unjust wars are started by misguided people who either think they're doing right or are on a conquest for power.


RE: Religion has been the foundation for illogical and irrational explanations of phenomenon that have negatively impacted human kind.

Name one. Actually name one example that pertains to Catholicism, because I already know a lot of those communist religions have crazy ideas.


RE: Due to religions resistance to change these miasmic explanations have been difficult to remove and as a result harmed much more than helped.

Name one example.

[Ape-Shit]

There are many Gods...! Therefore, God is only what you perceive him, she or it to be in your mind, nothing more. Same goes for Heven and Hell etc.