some groovy dope

[Josh]

I'll start this thread by saying that I do not do drugs excepting an occasional drink.

Now down to buisness. When asked why alcohol is legal and pot is not, a common argument against pot is basically how much worse it is for you. I'm not going to argue with you that pot is healthy or that it opens your mind or that it's ok because it's "all natural." That's stupid. Rattle snake venom is natural; that doesn't make it good for you. Now lets say just for fun that pot is as bad for you as the men on tv tell us it is. That still doesn't answer the root question: why is it illegal? A friend of mine from California is alergic to most shellfish. If she eats a pound of crab meat she'll be totally fuckered. Our government doesn't spend a dime preventing her from doing this to herself because if she were to it'd be her fault and she would pay the consequence of being an idiot. It's not illegal for me to drink a glass of draino and that's much worse for you than any popular drug. So why do we spend so much money each year trying to "help" people who don't even want to protect themselves? One factor is that there is a market for drugs; obviously there is not a market for chugging drain cleaner. So is money it? Or is it that the government just has more important things to worry about than abolishing old laws? I don't have an answer, but I know it's not what anti-drug people want us to think it is; it's NOT a health issue.

[Paisleyspeaker]

I thought you were gone, not that you know me, but I have read your posts and threads.
There are a group of people that believe that pot is illegal because of money, but not in the way many think. The book The Emperor Wears no Clothes puts it better and in more detail, but the gist is this:
The Hearst and DuPont families wealth were threated by hemp. Properly farmed it could produce more paper faster and cheaper than Hearst, and had many unpatentable chemical possiblitites. So Hearst threw his money and his newspaper empire at making it illegal. It was linked to Mexicans and "negro jazz musicians" and they used to american publics racism to create panic (Reefer Madness- a musical you must check out, even it you arnt a big musical fan, the DVD has the originaL too, it's at Blockbuster, it has Stephen Colbert)
At this point to de-criminalze it would mean letting a lot of people out of jail. That would raise unemployment numbers, as you would now have to find jobs and homes for all these people. Which would mean actual work for the politicans, and the high unemployment #s would make them look bad. Not to mention the overhaul of the DEA that would be nessisary.
If they really wanted to cut drug use, they would legalize them all, and have the pharmacutical companies make them, then no one could afford them.

[Josh]

Well right now it's illegal and people use them. If drugs are made legal but unaffordable people will still find illegal means of getting them, only there will be more sources of drugs.

I know one job people coming out of prison as a result of drug decriminalization can find: selling drugs. However they wouldn't be released from prison because they still broke a law.

btw I did leave.. now I'm back.

[Paisleyspeaker]

touche
But if they legalized drugs we would'nt need so many dealers. You could just get it at the store, not your buddies buddy.

[Josh]

I mean they could get a job at a store selling drugs. If they were release from prison (which they wouldn't be) there would be a demand for jobs but also as a result jobs would be created growing and selling drugs, opening stores for them, all sorts of good shit like that.

[Paisleyspeaker]

Most wouldn't be released because they faced mulitiple charges, but it is possible if they de-crimianlized pot that those in for only that would be released with time served. I think unless it had to be sold in a specific format like liquor stores and pharmacies that Wal-Mart would corner the market with cheap chinese dope.

[Josh]

Not seeing how pot is highly illegal in China but I get what you mean.

If you break a law and are sentenced you do your time regardless of future established laws. If I pay a $100 fine and the law changes so the fine is lessened I don't get my money back.

[Paisleyspeaker]

And you would'nt get the time you served back either, or get "credit" for it. It would all depend on how the legislateture wrote the bill, they could write it retroactivly, but would have to word it very expressly. The only two reasons the balance of Congress -the Supreme Court - could cut it are:if it has to do with only one person or a very , very small group; or if it is what they call void for vaugness, a law that is so unspecific it is hard to enforce.

And if the Chinese government sells the kidneys of its prisoners, it would peddle dope to americans gladly if the price was right, and they wouldn't change their domestic policies to do it. It would be grown in guarded farms and still illegal as hell.

[Josh]

No one would buy it if it was poor quality. I still maintain that any people imprisoned for a crime will serve their time regardless of future laws passed.

I have to go; I will be back on later.

[Danny]

Paisleyspeaker, you are a stupid cunt. Rot. In hell. ^_^

[General Septem]

I think it should be legalized and sold just like alcohol. Definitely not by drug companies.

Plus, as a woodworker I actually wish it were legal, because it would mean less trees being cut down for paper. Just like how I'm all for everything being commercially made out of plastic, because it means more wood for me.

[Paisleyspeaker]

Paisleyspeaker, you are a stupid cunt. Rot. In hell. ^_^


Really, what did I do to you? I would think you are the stupid one if all you can do is insult. Did you have nothing more intelligent to say?

[freakazoid]

Paisleyspeaker, you are a stupid cunt. Rot. In hell. ^_^

Hey buddy, we don't need that kind of attack on the board. How about treating people a little better. Paisleyspeaker did not say anything to you that would justify talking to her like that. I suggest that you post an apology or hit the road.

[freakazoid]

Really, what did I do to you? I would think you are the stupid one if all you can do is insult. Did you have nothing more intelligent to say?

Hopefully you won't take that personally, Paisley. Hang in there. :)

[beelzebub]

I think it should be legalized and sold just like alcohol. Definitely not by drug companies.

Plus, as a woodworker I actually wish it were legal, because it would mean less trees being cut down for paper. Just like how I'm all for everything being commercially made out of plastic, because it means more wood for me.

I totally agree.

AND - I wish that the USA would adopt a program like what they have in Amsterdam. Now this sounds bad, but; they dispense heroine and other illegal substances to addicts. FYI - while Amsterdam doesn't have heroine or cocaine bars they do provide this for addicts.

Think about it; No petty crime from desperate addicts. No underground drug dealers because it would all be controlled and legal.

Just a thought.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I totally agree.

AND - I wish that the USA would adopt a program like what they have in Amsterdam. Now this sounds bad, but; they dispense heroine and other illegal substances to addicts. FYI - while Amsterdam doesn't have heroine or cocaine bars they do provide this for addicts.

Think about it; No petty crime from desperate addicts. No underground drug dealers because it would all be controlled and legal.

Just a thought.

That sounds pretty extreme. I hate to say that I'm against it, but the change in society would be just too much for a conservatist like me.

[Paisleyspeaker]

Hopefully you won't take that personally, Paisley. Hang in there. :)


Not to worry Freaky. I have a lot of fun chatting with you guys, especially when we disagree, I wouldn't let one twirp ruin that. Intelligent debate is one of the best things about our civilzation: when done right it both makes one smarter and opens ones mind. I think most of us do it right.:D

[Paisleyspeaker]

BBO I think I understand your concern, such an ugly picture has been painted of drug addicts over the years. But socially it is a solution that is worth looking at. It would contain addiction , and hopefully lead to treatment. If addicts didn't have to steal or prostitute themselves to get high, that would greatly benifit society as a whole. And if you see these people as having a disease instead of just being criminals this offers many more opportunities at getting these pour souls treatment. The changes may not be as drastic, or visible as you think.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Yes, it sounds like a good idea, but think deeper into it. These drugs are severely addictive. If we make them legal, there are going to be hoards of people trying them out and quickly becomming addicted to them. They will begin to live only for the drug. Then some government addiction agency will see that a person is addicted, and spend loads of money to try and help them get off the drug. But they've already ruined their life and in most cases will never be truly free of the drug or truly happy again. This legalization is eventually going to end up destroying many people's lives while costing the American taxpayers even more than what they are currently dishing out. This shows that pure freedom is not an ideal state, and since people are so stupid on the whole, their intake of certain substances needs to be controlled and eliminated. In all reality, it only makes the country a better place to live for everyone in the grand picture.

[Paisleyspeaker]

Your assuming that people who would not otherwise try these drugs would if it were legalized. I don't believe they would. And legalization would not mean that we would stop teaching our children that drugs are bad. Alchohol is legal but we still teach of the ills of the substance; and it is also very addictive, not crack, but still there are millions of alchoholics. Cigarettes are also legal and engineered to be one of the most addicting things on the planet and anyone who watches TV sees the money spent to try to work with parents to keep kids from smoking. We are already shelling out millions, maybe even billions of dollars to fight a losing war on drugs. If that money could be spent on treatment and intervention we might see more progress.
I also think it is unfair to assume that once addicted you can "never be truly free of the drug or truly happy again." Should we advocate suicide for addicts then? While it is true that an addict can't have just a little, or an alchoholic just one drink. That does not mean they can't have days, weeks, or even years that are not a struggle to stay sober. A very good friend of mine, highly educated man, a college proffesor with several masters degrees is a recovering alchoholic he hasn't touched a drop in over a decade, hasn't thought of it in years. Are you saying that this man or others like him live lives with no value? I live in a shitty, no very shitty neigborhood. The majority of my neighbors are addicted to something. I see everyday what they put themselves and their families through. You would be suprised how much they hate themselves for what they do, a release from that would be joy. Most are too ashamed to look me in the eye, because they know I know, and they know I don't do it myself. I am sure you are aware of the vast numbers of Americans who live without health insurance, no insurance also means no hope of getting into a decent rehab program. Most addicts live lives without hope, longing to be where they were before they started their downhill slide. There will always be some who are beyond help, but should we punish them all. Drug addicts are not just criminals but people with a disease. We don't stop treating cancer patients just because some are terminal, why should we abandon these people?

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I don't disagree with you on any point except the legalization issue. Legalizing the drugs will make things worse. We can do these other things that you are talking about without making the drugs legal. However, if it is proven that a waning off of the drug is the best way to quit for some group, then I'd say that it should be legalized for those who are in a rehab program who are deemed a part of this group. But only under strict scrutinization. If something is legal there will be far more people trying it, and many of these drugs are way too addictive to let people just continue to "try" it because there will be tons and tons of new people becomming addicted. If alcohol were an illegal substance, I'd probably only have tried it once or twice, but made certain nothing more than that because of the fact that it is illegal. Because it IS legal, I have absolutely no problem drinking it whenever I feel like it. I'm sure that this situation is true for many other people. I'm sure that the situation would be the same with drugs, and with my addictive nature it would then have much worse consequences. Don't let the addiction start, and you won't be longing for things to be the way they were before it did.

[freakazoid]

Not to worry Freaky. I have a lot of fun chatting with you guys, especially when we disagree, I wouldn't let one twirp ruin that. Intelligent debate is one of the best things about our civilzation: when done right it both makes one smarter and opens ones mind. I think most of us do it right.:D

Cool, good to see that you brushed the little jerk off. I agree, "debate is one of the best things about our civilzation: when done right." This forum has a lot of good debate.

[normlman]

:cool:
I don't disagree with you on any point except the legalization issue. Legalizing the drugs will make things worse. We can do these other things that you are talking about without making the drugs legal. However, if it is proven that a waning off of the drug is the best way to quit for some group, then I'd say that it should be legalized for those who are in a rehab program who are deemed a part of this group. But only under strict scrutinization.

NC is conducting a study on the economic benefit's offered from hemp cultivation. I don't think it would be very much of a "study", as the economic benefits are obvious. I'm pro-decriminalization of marajuana laws and fostering the slow transition towards legalization because of the econmic benefits our nation would acheive. +plus all of the other beneficial studies reaped from the labs in regards to utilizing the chemicals from the plant. My Aunt is presently dying from cancer, we expect her to pass on within the week; if it were not for prescribed 'pot pills' her life would be utterly unbearable.
I do not use illegal drugs, nor do I support legalization of "hard drugs", but the inevetible un-fucking of our government and it's legislation's gotta start somewhere. And I can't see a better, more beneficial place to start, than hemp cultivation. If the government were to legalize marajuana, they could, and I'm sure there are much more brilliant minds under the capital's employ than this ex-marine's that could do it in respect to skillfully re-writting all of the laws accordingly, as necessary.
It is a very, very debatable issue, however.
So I guess I'll just keep working for a paycheck in the facade of a law abiding citizen and keep my fingers crossed.

NORMLman

[buttless_wonder]

Pollation suffering from drug addiction prior to drug prohibition - 1.3%

Pollation suffering from drug addiction after drug prohibition - 1.3%

Makes you wonder.

[something]

Pollation suffering from drug addiction prior to drug prohibition - 1.3%

Pollation suffering from drug addiction after drug prohibition - 1.3%

Makes you wonder.

Apparently, illegal drugs are BULLSHIT!:D

[buttless_wonder]

I believe you miss my point.
The War on Drugs has been an utter failure.

[yee-haw]

i think pot should be legal.... but thats only my opinion

[yee-haw]

danny.... you are a idiot. don't like what they write...don't read it