Abortion!?!? Why not

[who897]

Ok you hippies and republicans, that's enough of your self rightous, biblical, and quite neanderthal thinking. I look at pregnancy as a STD, which in fact it is, it is a sexually transmitted disease. One in which we have a cure for so to speak. Killing life, well, maybe it is, who cares, we take lives everyday, even you vegitarians destroy life. I know your arguement will be that it's only a plant, it has no feelings, yadda yadda yadda it's not human. Has anyone looked at it like it's just a clump of cells. We are all just a clump of randomly selected cells arranged in a pattern to create what we like to call a complex organisim. Then the whole soul arguement comes into play. Well, that little clump of sperm and egg, it hasn't prayed and read the bible and accepted your jesus as it's personal saviour, so piss off. Hell, it might never do it, like myself. I could come up with a bunch more but, it's getting late and this old piece of sprem and egg needs some rest.

In closing your agruments are bullshit, your foundation of faith is bullshit, and why your parents didn't choice to abort some of ya is bullshit. Have a nice day.

[REPTILE]

Fuck you. Jeez, some people are just straight up assholes. Pregnancy is not an STD, but maybe your an exception. We are more than "clumps of cells", why are human biengs so complex if were just a bunch of silly little clumps running around. No children huh? If you do have any your a fucking shame to be saying those things.

*Numbnut a.k.a. Who897 - "Ok you hippies and republicans, that's enough of your self rightous, biblical, and quite neanderthal thinking."

Neanderthal thinking??? This is coming from a guy that says were nothing more than clumps of cells.

[superdudewahoo]

i would have to agree with you Reptile, we are all more than just a clump of cells. Regardless of your religion, or even not having one, everyone is more than a mere clump of cells, we are all part of a much bigger picture and all have a role in it no matter how small or large that role is stilli intricate to the world, however some individuals in here are too judgemental and arrogantly self centered enough to easily overlook this with ease.

[beelzebub]

i would have to agree with you Reptile, we are all more than just a clump of cells. Regardless of your religion, or even not having one, everyone is more than a mere clump of cells, we are all part of a much bigger picture and all have a role in it no matter how small or large that role is stilli intricate to the world, however some individuals in here are too judgemental and arrogantly self centered enough to easily overlook this with ease.

RIGHT ON !!!! Way to go superdudewahoo!

Though, I am not sure about the STD thing... but I agree with everything else!

Thanks for posting!

[who897]

I'll be suppling free hangers for women under the age of 30.






At least if they are actually able to ban abortion.

I have like 20 kids running around Mexico.

It's the new way of thinking baby, Lead, Follow, or Get outta the way, in this new era.

[General Septem]

I look at pregnancy as a STD, which in fact it is, it is a sexually transmitted disease.

One look at you makes me wonder if it really isn't.

[REPTILE]

^^^ HAHA!!!!!^^^ Gen. Septum for president

[Dakota]

Wow - as a new mom of a beautiful almost 5 months old baby girl, I am so majorly offended, it's not even funny.

How desperate for attention and unhappy you must be! I feel for you!

You know, when I first read your post - I was so outraged, I wanted to call you and tell you all sorts of things - unfortunately I'm even good at that. Thankfully God had a better plan - I had to register first in order to respond to this and while I did so - I realized what a poor soul you are and my anger turned to pitty.

I'm really, really sorry you feel that you are a totally worthless random clump of cells. And I'm sorry that you feel, it doesn't matter weather you exist or not. You know, there was a time several years back when I struggled with depression and a huge part of that came from feeling that I was no good and not worth anything. Now my feelings didn't even go as far as being an entirely worthless clump of cells, and I felt bad enough - I can only imagine how miserable you must be ...

There's nothing better in life than knowing one matters, no greater treasures than having loved ones, and nothing more comforting than knowing, there's a purpose for all of us.

Well - weather you want to hear it or not. Here's the good news. There is someone who KNOWS you're more than a worthless pile of sperm and egg. You know why - because he created you! Someone to whom it matters that you exist - you know why, because he died for you.

Now be blessed and know that I'll be praying for you - weather you like it or not. Peace

[Deez_nutz]

Ok you hippies and republicans, that's enough of your self rightous, biblical, and quite neanderthal thinking. I look at pregnancy as a STD, which in fact it is, it is a sexually transmitted disease. One in which we have a cure for so to speak. Killing life, well, maybe it is, who cares, we take lives everyday, even you vegitarians destroy life. I know your arguement will be that it's only a plant, it has no feelings, yadda yadda yadda it's not human. Has anyone looked at it like it's just a clump of cells. We are all just a clump of randomly selected cells arranged in a pattern to create what we like to call a complex organisim. Then the whole soul arguement comes into play. Well, that little clump of sperm and egg, it hasn't prayed and read the bible and accepted your jesus as it's personal saviour, so piss off. Hell, it might never do it, like myself. I could come up with a bunch more but, it's getting late and this old piece of sprem and egg needs some rest.

In closing your agruments are bullshit, your foundation of faith is bullshit, and why your parents didn't choice to abort some of ya is bullshit. Have a nice day.


I agree. I think these wandering STDs on this site need to realize this. Talking about shit like they actually make a difference in this world. If more people would have, or have had, abortions, this world would have been a better place. Meaning no one around to fuck it up for the animals.

[Dakota]

I agree. I think these wandering STDs on this site need to realize this. Talking about shit like they actually make a difference in this world. If more people would have, or have had, abortions, this world would have been a better place. Meaning no one around to fuck it up for the animals.


Woah Dude - what's with your profile? Are you really this old? Shouldn't you be wiser? And why are so bitter? Why is everyone so bitter around here?Yeah, yeah I know - the website is called BULLSHIT.COM - what did I expect ...

I must admit I only ran into it because I had a very bad day yesterday and BULLSHIT was the word that stuck in my mind. As I sat down at the computer I mindlessly typed it in - and there we go - here I am - the fool hoping to brighten someone's day, and trying to bring reason, compassion and respect to a place called bullshit.com :o

Well, I'll give it another couple of days. We'll see if you guys can successfully drive me out of here by then. I guess there is only so much bullshit I can take :) ...
Peace

[REPTILE]

Dakota, welcome to BullShit.com, I feel you.

Yours truly, DRAGON (a.k.a. REPTILE)

[Dakota]

Dakota, welcome to BullShit.com, I feel you.

Yours truly, DRAGON (a.k.a. REPTILE)


Hey way cool! I totally appreciate that :)

[REPTILE]

Haha, no problem. I know how "warm" and "kindhearted" some people in this forum can be. So I thought I'd take it upon myself to give you a nice welcome

[Dakota]

Haha, no problem. I know how "warm" and "kindhearted" some people in this forum can be. So I thought I'd take it upon myself to give you a nice welcome


Again - thanks dude.
You've brightened my evening :)
Anyways - gotta hit the hay. Unfortunately 5 months old babies only sleep until 5:00 :o

[Dakota]

They're awesome though - the little babies that is - in case any one wonders. I'm not complaining - just need to get my beauty sleep :)

[alejandra_h]

no first of all abortion should be illegal... its full of crap. abortion, all it is is killing a human being. y arent we punished for abortion but when someone kills someone else they r punished?? the babies inside the womb still feel everything, y is it not considered life?? it is.. y is one cell on mars considered life but a baby in side womb isnt.. the baby feels everything inside the womb. if u have an abortion all ur doing is being selfish and not letting some1 else hve a life. for all u noe u cold be killing the one person who could find the cure for cancer

[Ape-Shit]

[QUOTE=alejandra_h]no first of all abortion should be illegal...

But they are legal and it is to protect women from people like you.

[Dakota]

[QUOTE=alejandra_h]no first of all abortion should be illegal...

But they are legal and it is to protect women from people like you.


Why do we need protection from Alejandra???
She doesn't seem scary :)

She just has an opinion - it's okay to have an opinion, right?

[who897]

Ohhh I just thought of something. All them chicks that have like 20 freaking kids and collect welfare and WIC. They should be forced to abort. And someone said that if you abort a child it might be the one to cure cancer....well, if it's gonna be found it'll be found regardless of that person. Plus if they were so smart they wouldn't have gotten into that womb in the first place and started growin.

[General Septem]

They should be forced to abort.

Pro-choice is one thing, but forcing someone to abort is quite another.

[Dakota]

Ohhh I just thought of something. All them chicks that have like 20 freaking kids and collect welfare and WIC. They should be forced to abort. And someone said that if you abort a child it might be the one to cure cancer....well, if it's gonna be found it'll be found regardless of that person. Plus if they were so smart they wouldn't have gotten into that womb in the first place and started growin.


POOR THING - how confused you are - HOPEFULLY. Because it's either that - or you're rather EVIL. That's what Hitler used to do - forcing women to have abortions.

[Ape-Shit]

[QUOTE=Ape-Shit]


Why do we need protection from Alejandra???
She doesn't seem scary :)

WE DON'T, A woman who desires to have an Abortion Does. Who died and made you a God? What right is it of yours to dictate what others do to their person.

She just has an opinion - it's okay to have an opinion, right?

Yes, you may have your opinion, I have mine and a lady who wants to have an abortion has hers.

[REPTILE]

* Who897 - "Plus if they were so smart they wouldn't have gotten into that womb in the first place and started growin."

You fucking imbucile, how the hell is the baby to blame for being conceived. Thats like blaming you for being born, it makes no fucking sense. Your a damn idiot, stay out of this thread moron.

[REPTILE]

* Ape - "Who died and made you a God? What right is it of yours to dictate what others do to their person."

* My response - Well Ape, Who died and made you a God? What right is it of yours to dictate who lives and who dies.

Your not God, and Nobody in the Gov. is god either. Nobody can give someone the greenlight to kill their child. Its IN THERE, its meant to be born, LET IT BE!

[Dakota]

[QUOTE=Ape-Shit][QUOTE=Dakota]

What right is it of yours to dictate what others do to their person.[QUOTE]

You ask - What right is it of mine to dictat what others do to their PERSON?? So we finally agree that it is a person that we're talking about. Great. Now we just have to work on establishing that it is NOT okay to kill a person.

[who897]

* Who897 - "Plus if they were so smart they wouldn't have gotten into that womb in the first place and started growin."

You fucking imbucile, how the hell is the baby to blame for being conceived. Thats like blaming you for being born, it makes no fucking sense. Your a damn idiot, stay out of this thread moron.


It was my fault for being born, I could have went feet first and commited suicide, but I figured what the hell, I need a beer. So here I am.

[who897]

[QUOTE=Ape-Shit][QUOTE=Dakota]

What right is it of yours to dictate what others do to their person.[QUOTE]

You ask - What right is it of mine to dictat what others do to their PERSON?? So we finally agree that it is a person that we're talking about. Great. Now we just have to work on establishing that it is NOT okay to kill a person.


You took that outta context, not even right context but I give you a C for trying.

[Ape-Shit]

[QUOTE=REPTILE
* My response - Well Ape, Who died and made you a God? What right is it of yours to dictate who lives and who dies.[/QUOTE]

No one died. I was not made a GOD, although I would probably make a good one and I don't dictate to anyone who should live or die.

I leave that decision up to the person who is pregnant with an unwanted fetus.

Simple as that.

[Ape-Shit]

So we finally agree that it is a person that we're talking about. Great. Now we just have to work on establishing that it is NOT okay to kill a person.

No we don't agree and you know that, what a cheep shot? Coming from a person of your character I can understand.

No, you are correct, it is NOT okay to kill a person. It is however, ok for a person to have an Abortion and Flush A Fetus!

[REPTILE]

* Ape-Shit - "No one died. I was not made a GOD, although I would probably make a good one and I don't dictate to anyone who should live or die.
I leave that decision up to the person who is pregnant with an unwanted fetus.
Simple as that."

Ok, so I guess I'll go out and kill those "unwanted" bums throughout the city. Its not a crime, there unwanted after all. The same same as killing a stupid fetus (like the ones we were at some point). Thanks Ape, now I got something to do this weekend, HUNTING!

[who897]

Hunting sounds fun. It's more of a vacine though. We are essentially and quite simply eliminating possible threats to our freedom by neutralizing it before it becomes an infection.

Are you all willing then to take in all those babies that weren't put on the chopping block, and those bums as you put it. No I don't think so. It makes complete sense to terminate a pregnancy. Cuz if you can't take care of it who will. We've established you wont then who? The goverment, come on now, we have the biggest dang deficet in the world, that's all we need, one more hungry mouth to feed, and you know what, it aint my freaking kid, so I'm paying for it...I don't fucking think so. Alas, Uncle Sam takes my taxes and I end up paying for that shit. Two things you don't fuck w/ a mans fries and his money. I swear one of those bastards took some fries when I was at McDonalds, and I'm still paying for them as we speak so they got 2 strikes against them. I say vacuum their brains out and be done with it.

[REPTILE]

The point your failing to misunderstand is that murder is wrong. I never said the Gov. would take care of them by the way, I know the gov. is cheap. If someone came to me and said either I care for the baby or it dies Id keep it (i know something like this is unlikely, but just to let you know). Killing them isnt the answer either way you look at it. What your saying is barbaric and disguisting. Also if your taxes don't go towards that, it'll sure as hell go to something else. The Gov. will find a way to keep that extra income regardless of how they spend it. Stop complaining about money when innocent lives are being destroyed.

[Dakota]

No we don't agree and you know that, what a cheep shot? Coming from a person of your character I can understand.

No, you are correct, it is NOT okay to kill a person. It is however, ok for a person to have an Abortion and Flush A Fetus!




It's actually spelled "cheap" shot ...

And whatever dude - it was YOU who asked "What right is it of yours to dictate what others do to their PERSON."

[who897]

Tell that to the Polio. I never said I didn't like the gov. taking taxes, I said I think it's fucked up I gotta pay for the damn bastards foster homes, half way shelters, methodone treatments etc etc etc. Speaking of Barbaric, everyone though Elvis was barbaric when he swung his hips on stage...now we pretty much fuck when we dance. Divorce was thought of as barbaric...now only like 20% of marrages last 10 years. Preforming autoposies was considered barbaric....now we do it on just about every corpse. Guess what, my way of "barbaric" thinking is just one more thing that the religious folks are gonna have to deal w/ cuz they can't win. They are destined to fail because of their inablitly of flexiblity on their own views. What does it hurt any of you that someone has an abortion....it doesn't, but your feelings get hurt?!?!?! Get over it, grow up, be a man or a women. Things die, it made it's life the most of it. Now it's dead, move on. It did, right out the birth canal.

[Dakota]

* Ape-Shit - "No one died. I was not made a GOD, although I would probably make a good one and I don't dictate to anyone who should live or die.
I leave that decision up to the person who is pregnant with an unwanted fetus.
Simple as that."

Ok, so I guess I'll go out and kill those "unwanted" bums throughout the city. Its not a crime, there unwanted after all. The same same as killing a stupid fetus (like the ones we were at some point). Thanks Ape, now I got something to do this weekend, HUNTING!


LOL - that's pretty good Reptile!!!

[Dakota]

Guess what, my way of "barbaric" thinking is just one more thing that the religious folks are gonna have to deal w/ cuz they can't win. They are destined to fail because of their inablitly of flexiblity on their own views.

You might be right. The religious folk may not be able to win (this). Thank goodness somebody else already has ... :)

[Ape-Shit]

* Thanks Ape, now I got something to do this weekend, HUNTING!

Well, I hope you are better at Hunting than you are at shooting off your mouth.

[Ape-Shit]

And whatever dude - it was YOU who asked "What right is it of yours to dictate what others do to their PERSON."

Just because mommy brushed it and flushed it to keep another hungry Dog off the streets isn't anything to cry about.

[Dakota]

Just because mommy brushed it and flushed it to keep another hungry Dog off the streets isn't anything to cry about.


Okay so there's nothing to cry about - whatever - but you do agree it is a PERSON then. I mean, YOU wrote it.

[Ape-Shit]

Okay so there's nothing to cry about - whatever - but you do agree it is a PERSON then. I mean, YOU wrote it.

Unfortunately, I must of had too many beers that night. I didn't finish the sentence. Shame on me! I was refering to a persons body, the one of whom was carring the fetus and not the fetus as a person (which a fetus is not a person). To answer you question: No I do not agree!

Of course you took it to be completely out of context, of which you knew my intended meaning and tried to twist it around, spin if you will.

Everyone who reads these threads know that. I don't fault you for your opinions and ideas. I probably don't like abortion as much as you, but it is not up to me nor you to say. That is all.

[Dakota]

Unfortunately, I must of had too many beers that night. I didn't finish the sentence. Shame on me! I was refering to a persons body, the one of whom was carring the fetus and not the fetus as a person (which a fetus is not a person). To answer you question: No I do not agree!

Of course you took it to be completely out of context, of which you knew my intended meaning and tried to twist it around, spin if you will.

Everyone who reads these threads know that. I don't fault you for your opinions and ideas. I probably don't like abortion as much as you, but it is not up to me nor you to say. That is all.


Yeah dude - I did know what you had meant - I had fun twisting it though :) - sorry - although technically, I really didn't twist anything. I just pretended I didn't know better :). Anyways, I really appreciate you finally agreeing to disagree without all the f/u this and f/u that.

[REPTILE]

*WHO897 - "Guess what, my way of "barbaric" thinking is just one more thing that the religious folks are gonna have to deal w/ cuz they can't win. They are destined to fail because of their inablitly of flexiblity on their own views."

Yeah, deal with it by protesting against it, not sitting aside and doing nothing while unbron babies are getting their brains sucked out. "Inability of flexability on their own views" - Your the one whoes way of thinking is "inflexible", why cant you see that its NOT a good thing. Killing unborn children, I agree with the "religious bunch" that its evil. Nothing right about killing an unborn child, and dont give me that "I dont wanna pay for them BullShit". If someone was trying to kill you, you would want to survive. As for a fetus, it doesn't know whats going on. Just because its not conscious to the outside world and whats going on, doesn't mean its ok to kill it.
__________________________________________________ _________________

*Ape-Shit - "Well, I hope you are better at Hunting than you are at shooting off your mouth."

Well at target practice I usually hit about 26 out of 30, and thats from long distance shooting
And besides, what my mouth "shoots off" isn't a bunch of stupid and evil ideals on how its ok to kill unborn babies. Forget listerine, battery acid is what you you need to rinse with.

[who897]

I can see this is getting us no where. Yall have yer views, I got mine. I like to throw some humor into it yall may see that as in bad taste. All in all, here is my view, I think abortion should be legal. It is not my place, nor is it anyone elses to decide for anyone else what they can and can not do to thier body. Realisticly I don't see any harm in it. It is not mass genocide, it is not murder, at least to my way of thinking. I know you will disagree at least to the murder part. Take your high road, I'll take my road, and 15 years down the road we will see where we are all at.

[REPTILE]

Regardless of where we are "15 years from now" whether its legal or not, its still wrong.

*Who897 - "It is not my place, nor is it anyone elses to decide for anyone else what they can and can not do to thier body."

Your right man, I couldn't agree more with you. Excpt that the decision shes making affects not only "her" body but involves the death of "another" body altogether. That cant be right.

[Ape-Shit]

It's not wrong to me.....! Nor the person who decides to do it. Nor to our Federal, State and Local Government.

Oh! I forget...., you must be one of the God's disciples and the law of the land doesn't apply to you.

Oh My, How wounderfull..., you can control who ever you want and when ever you want.

Koodles to you....!

[who897]

Who made you the moral authority on this issue? How do you know it's wrong? Why do you guys always try and twist the words that are typed? I think it's cuz yall have nothing better to do then interject yourselves into others buisness. This is why I like intreverts.

[General Septem]

Who made you the moral authority on this issue? How do you know it's wrong?
The same way we know killing anyone else is wrong.

[REPTILE]

The General has a point. I think that with a minimal amount of common sense and a soul anyone should be able to see that its wrong.

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/audiovideo.html

Look at this "nice" little video. No need to post up any comments afterwards, I think deep down everyone who has a soul knows this is not only absolutely disgusting, but evil aswell.
__________________________________________________ _______________
*Ape-Shit - "It's not wrong to me.....! Nor the person who decides to do it. Nor to our Federal, State and Local Government."

Well then you and those who do it need to reevaluate the meaning of life, and since when does the Gov. really give a shit about us?
__________________________________________________ _______________
*Ape-Shit - "Oh! I forget...., you must be one of the God's disciples and the law of the land doesn't apply to you."

FYI, I follow the law. I dont steal, kill, etc... The law of the land does aplly to me, however we as people have to recognize when the laws cross the line. Tearing a baby limb from limb and pulling it out of the womb is NOT right. I dont need to believe in God to see that, its common sense. If you liberals rather see it as nothing more than getting rid of a little "pest" then your wrong.
__________________________________________________ _______________
*Ape-Shit - "Oh My, How wounderfull..., you can control who ever you want and when ever you want."

The point of your statement is??? I'm not controlling anyone. I wont drag a woman out of an abortion clinic, so dont give me that control people crap.
__________________________________________________ _______________
*Who897 - "Who made you the moral authority on this issue? How do you know it's wrong?"

No need to retype what the General already said.

[who897]

No one has a soul. It's something people thought up to try and distinquish themselves from the animals that they are.


Sheep go to heaven
Goats go to hell
All dogs go to heaven

More animals that you'll have to let in. Is their a snake god that made all snakes in it's image?

[Dakota]

[QUOTE=who897] Sheep go to heaven. Goats go to hell [QUOTE=who897]

Hey, that's a song by CAKE. I love their music. I saw them in concert in Berlin once. I met them afterwards and we hung out had champaign and fruit and chatted. Real nice people - all of them. It was a blast :)!

[beelzebub]

No one has a soul. It's something people thought up to try and distinquish themselves from the animals that they are.
Sheep go to heaven
Goats go to hell
All dogs go to heaven
More animals that you'll have to let in. Is their a snake god that made all snakes in it's image?

Wow... a kindered human! I feel the same way and I am happy you are here!

Though I hope you are not serious about the le serpent, de mouton, et de chèvre?

[REPTILE]

We are animals your right. But we are much more advanced and intelligent. People often act like animals more than anything else, however that doesn't mean we're a bunch of spiritless creatures. Whether you like it or not you, me, and everyone else has a spirit. Its up to you what kind of life you lead and rather or not your happy in life. Also you can achieve all kinds of amazing things by becoming one with your spirit. Just look at Shaolin monks, in my opinion theyre just about the most amazing people on the planet

Also:
*Who897 - "Is their a snake god that made all snakes in it's image?"

You guessed it, No. MAN was made in Gods image. The other creatures we inhabit this earth with are here to maintain the great balance of nature and keep us company.

[Dakota]

Yeah, I can definitely go along with the fact that we're all mammals. I do argue that I have a soul or spirit or something that makes me different from "other" animals. I'll explain why I say that, but first let me say - I LOVE ANIMALS - most of them anyway. In particular I love horses. I've learnt much from them - about me, about mankind, about life, and about what makes us different from them. I've spent hours, days, months with my horse and her herd - watching them, playing with them, pretending to be one of them. Little is more awesome than to make a connection with them on their level and to clearly have them accept you into the herd. It's like magic.

Anyways, We have mental capabilities that they don't though. Unfortunately the easiest way to make my case here is not in our favor, but here it goes - one of the fundamental differences between humans and animals (horses at the very least, I couldn't speak for EVERY animal) is the ability to lie and to be deceptive. Horses don't know what that is, or how to do it.
Many people who don't know that much about horses like to complain that they're so unpredictable. In reality (once you really know them) - they're much easier to predict than humans. The reason why - because they don't pretend. My horse will NEVER pretend to gently massage my back and then out of the blue take a bite or swing at me. Horses will always, always warn me of what they will do. All we have to do is read the signs - which isn't always easy, but it's possible. It took many hours, months, years - but I learnt it. I don't know how true this is for other animals, but I imagine it is.

How often on the other hand do humans play nice, only to turn around and stab us in the back without ANY warning signs. To me this is the biggest difference between mankind and animals.

I do think though, that this quality we have can swing in a positive way as well. I believe that we can emotionally relate to each other and to animals in a more refined way than they do. I also strongly believe that we can use this quality to do good for this planet, the animals, and our fellow humans. I don't see animals consciously doing anything for the bigger picture. They're just part of it.

In a way, I kind of also want to argue that we're essentially smarten than them, but owning a horse who's definitely smarten than myself, I better not :o
Seriously, I constantly have to be on my toes, she always outsmarts me. She awesome though - way cute :)

I guess we have our strenghts, and so do they.

P.S. Sorry to get totally off the subject here. You'll learn this about me - if you give me half a chance to babble on and on and on and on and on about my horse and all horses - I will :p

[General Septem]

No one has a soul. It's something people thought up to try and distinquish themselves from the animals that they are.

More animals that you'll have to let in. Is their a snake god that made all snakes in it's image?

Our soul is what makes us self-evident. It doesn't distinguish us from animals, it distinguishes us from machines. We believe animals have souls too, but that their souls die when their bodies do. No, there is no snake God. Why would there be?

[Ape-Shit]

If your God is such a great guy, why did he kick his brother (Satan) out of Heven. Seems to me Satan is the Good Dude.

After all, you are always welcomed at Satan's House. If you were to ask me, I would say that Satan was the Good Dude and your God was the Bad One.

No one has to Kiss Ass to go to Hell....., but you have to be a Believer and walk a chalk line to get into Heven.....! BS THAT'S ALL IT IS.....!

I kinda like Medusa, she always turned me into stone....!

I stand corrected: though we were all brothers!

Still BS

[General Septem]

If your God is such a great guy, why did he kick his brother (Satin) out of Heven. Seems to me Satin is the Good Dude.

After all his house (Satin's) is always welcomed. If you were to ask me, I would say that Satin was the Good Dude and your God was the Bad One.

No one has to Kiss Ass to go to Hell....., but you have to be a Believer and walk a chalk line to get into Heven.....! BS THAT'S ALL IT IS.....!

I kinda like Medusa, she always turned me into stone....!

Satin is a fabric.

Satan was not God's brother, he was a powerful angel who wasn't happy with the power he was given. He wanted everything, and I can only imagine there must have been a huge fight.

You don't have to kiss ass to go to hell, but you don't have to do any work to live in a cardboard box either.

[Dakota]

After all, you are always welcomed at Satan's House.

True. I hear he's a really bad host though ... :eek: ...

[Dakota]

[QUOTE=General Septem]Satin is a fabric.

LOL - That's great General. I don't know why this cracks me up. It's simply the truth. I just thought it was great the way you put that at the beginning, so matter of fact. :D

[Ape-Shit]

True. I hear he's a really bad host though ... :eek: ...

We are all going to Hell one day. Today, you are in Heaven. Its when you leave this Heaven and enter eternal darkness, is when you enter Hell.

So, Please enjoy your life to the fullest each and every day.

[REPTILE]

*Ape-Shit - "Please enjoy your life to the fullest each and every day."

Yup! By simply doing that, having compasion for one another, living good lives, and following a few simple things that God asks of us (not stealing, killing, etc.) we enter heaven.

"Its better to wear out doing good, than rust doing nothing"

[who897]

Ok, why the hell would anyone make anything in their own image. Well, I got the answer. So one day the image can take over. I think it is time for us to take over. No more of the quibbling over who's right who's wrong. Cuz now we are always right, and always wrong, cuz we are now gods and what we says goes regardless of reason. Hey, I can work in mysterious ways too. So as my first decree as god I state that abortion is OK. Second, tommorow will be sunny, unless you have bad weather tomorrow. Third, everyone stay tuned for the rest of my commandments. My first day is my rest day.

[who897]

Ohh who ever said that thing about souls was because of machines.....do you think the dipshits back in 320 AD knew what the heck a machine was (at least a complex one not the wheel)? But you did bring up a good topic, we are also pretty complex machines, plain and simple, but that's definatly a topic for a different thread of idea's, not abortion. VIVA LA ABORTION

[Dakota]

So as my first decree as god I state that abortion is OK. [QUOTE=who897]

Well, since we can all do whatever the hell we want and don't have to pay attention much less listen to "God" - I'm gonna say NOOOOOOOOO! :D


[QUOTE=who897] Second, tommorow will be sunny, unless you have bad weather tomorrow. [QUOTE=who897]

LOL - that's great!

[QUOTE=who897] My first day is my rest day.

Can we make ALL DAYS rest days?? If not, how about 5 a week??? :)

[General Septem]

Ohh who ever said that thing about souls was because of machines.....do you think the dipshits back in 320 AD knew what the heck a machine was (at least a complex one not the wheel)? But you did bring up a good topic, we are also pretty complex machines, plain and simple, but that's definatly a topic for a different thread of idea's, not abortion. VIVA LA ABORTION

I was explaining what a soul was, not what their explanation was back then. We wouldn't be anything but machines if we didn't have souls.

[General Septem]

So as my first decree as god I state that abortion is OK. Second, tommorow will be sunny, unless you have bad weather tomorrow. Third, everyone stay tuned for the rest of my commandments. My first day is my rest day.
My first decree as your fellow god is to give all our power back to the real God. :D

[who897]

Totally missed the point

[General Septem]

Totally missed the point
Well I for one ignored it, to be an asshole. :D

[joannyann]

I would have to agree with Dakota for such a reply/comment, many of us who are fortunate to have beautiful clupms off cells in our lives can say positive things, however those of us who have been misgaurded and bullshitted around is bound to say other wise

Am very fortunate to have the most adorable clump of cell as a daughter, and am not the least bit offended by the statment made just in awe of how different we all percieve life

HOPE TO HEAR AND DEFEND MORE BULLSHIT ON THIS BULLSHIT SITE.....






Wow - as a new mom of a beautiful almost 5 months old baby girl, I am so majorly offended, it's not even funny.

How desperate for attention and unhappy you must be! I feel for you!

You know, when I first read your post - I was so outraged, I wanted to call you and tell you all sorts of things - unfortunately I'm even good at that. Thankfully God had a better plan - I had to register first in order to respond to this and while I did so - I realized what a poor soul you are and my anger turned to pitty.

I'm really, really sorry you feel that you are a totally worthless random clump of cells. And I'm sorry that you feel, it doesn't matter weather you exist or not. You know, there was a time several years back when I struggled with depression and a huge part of that came from feeling that I was no good and not worth anything. Now my feelings didn't even go as far as being an entirely worthless clump of cells, and I felt bad enough - I can only imagine how miserable you must be ...

There's nothing better in life than knowing one matters, no greater treasures than having loved ones, and nothing more comforting than knowing, there's a purpose for all of us.

Well - weather you want to hear it or not. Here's the good news. There is someone who KNOWS you're more than a worthless pile of sperm and egg. You know why - because he created you! Someone to whom it matters that you exist - you know why, because he died for you.

Now be blessed and know that I'll be praying for you - weather you like it or not. Peace

[beelzebub]

I would have to agree with Dakota for such a reply/comment, many of us who are fortunate to have beautiful clupms off cells in our lives can say positive things, however those of us who have been misgaurded and bullshitted around is bound to say other wise

Am very fortunate to have the most adorable clump of cell as a daughter, and am not the least bit offended by the statment made just in awe of how different we all percieve life

HOPE TO HEAR AND DEFEND MORE BULLSHIT ON THIS BULLSHIT SITE.....

Wonderful for you. I also have a loverly clump of cells in my life.

Can we agree that it should be a choice as to whether or not we HAVE to have a clump of cells in our lives?

[Dakota]

Wonderful for you. I also have a loverly clump of cells in my life.

Can we agree that it should be a choice as to whether or not we HAVE to have a clump of cells in our lives?


Absolutely! For everyone who doesn't want to have a clump of cells in their lives - DON'T HAVE ONE - DON'T GET PREGNANT! There are plenty of ways to prevent that.

If you did everything right and got pregnant through no fault of your own, and you really don't want to have that clump of cells - give the clump of cells to someone who can't have one but desperately wants one.
It's only 9 months out of your life - by the time you realize you're pregnant even less - compared to a whole lifetime that this clump of cells will have ...

Just don't go and destroy it! Cause - Whether we've jokingly come to call it a "clump of cells" or not - it still IS a human being in the making. A beautiful perfect little baby.

[beelzebub]

Absolutely! For everyone who doesn't want to have a clump of cells - don't have one - DON'T GET PREGNANT! There are plenty of ways to prevent that.

I agree perhaps we should all view the following clip
http://gprime.net/video.php/reasonforcondoms

[QUOTE=Dakota] If you did everything right and got pregnant through no fault of your own, and you really don't want to have that clump of cells - give the clump of cells to someone who doesn't have one but desperately wants one. It's only 9 months out of your life - by the time you realize you're pregnant even less - compared to a whole lifetime that this clump of cells will have ...

The problem is that if you force (through legislation) this opinion you make another human to your standard. This is where I draw the line. I feel that this should be the decision of that individual that must bear the burden.... not yours.

[QUOTE=Dakota] Just don't go and destroy it! Cause - Whether we've jokingly come to call it a "clump of cells" or not - it still IS a human being in the making. A beautiful perfect little baby.

Fuzzy, Warm, Soft & Cuddly..... gimme a break!
We are talking about individual freedom. You take that away when you force someone to carry a fetus to term.

[Dakota]

[QUOTE=beelzebub
We are talking about individual freedom. You take that away when you force someone to carry a fetus to term.[/QUOTE]

This is where we go round and round and have to agree to disagree. The fetus is a human life and in my book ones individual freedom does NOT include the right to kill a human life - born or unborn.

Let me ask you this though - until what week of pregnancy do you feel an abortion is okay to have? And why?
I'm still curious what the legal cut off is in the U.S. I've asked that many times, nobody seems to know. I guess it's different in different states too. Do you know it for your state possibly?

[General Septem]

We are talking about individual freedom. You take that away when you force someone to carry a fetus to term.

We're not forcing anyone to do anything. It's like a "NO LEFT TURN" sign. Was it put there by tyrants to "force" someone to make a right-hand turn instead? Get the fuck outta here. Or was it put there because making a left-hand turn is dangerous and can result in someone getting killed or at the very least hold up traffic? You decide.

That's all abortion is. It's a left-hand turn, except someone /always/ gets killed.

There are many other ways you can get to where you want to go. There are many other places you can go to. You don't need to make that left-hand turn and put everyone on the road including yourself in danger.

[Dakota]

We're not forcing anyone to do anything. It's like a "NO LEFT TURN" sign. Was it put there by tyrants to "force" someone to make a right-hand turn instead? Get the fuck outta here. Or was it put there because making a left-hand turn is dangerous and can result in someone getting killed or at the very least hold up traffic? You decide.

That's all abortion is. It's a left-hand turn, except someone /always/ gets killed.

There are many other ways you can get to where you want to go. There are many other places you can go to. You don't need to make that left-hand turn and put everyone on the road including yourself in danger.

Hey - I like that! I'll remember that :)

I especially like the comparison as far as "there are many ways to get to where you want to go". That's basically what I've been trying to say in regards to adoption. If you don't want to be a parent - DON'T - give birth and give the baby away. Yes - it takes a bit longer than to make that left-hand turn. You have to "go around the block" - if you will - but you can still go to where you wanted to go and you've preserved a humas life instead of killing it.

[beelzebub]

This is where we go round and round and have to agree to disagree. The fetus is a human life and in my book ones individual freedom does NOT include the right to kill a human life - born or unborn.

Yeah, I see a difference between our stances though: You as treat the fetus as having the rights as any seperate human being. That’s just not the way it is. The fetus is not an individual human being because its existence DEPENDS on another individual.
I treat the fetus as having the rights the individual that supports its life with HER BODY decides to grant.

You want to control other person’s decisions about their body and I say that is WRONG and EVIL. More so than killing a fetus.


Let me ask you this though - until what week of pregnancy do you feel an abortion is okay to have? And why?

I say that abortion is an acceptable choice as long as there is no other alternative. In other words: If they are able to take the fetus and put it into a device and it can carry it till its independent. However I state this as a secondary option. The PRIMARY choice is the mothers!

[Dakota]

Yeah, I see a difference between our stances though: You as treat the fetus as having the rights as any seperate human being. That’s just not the way it is. The fetus is not an individual human being because its existence DEPENDS on another individual.
I treat the fetus as having the rights the individual that supports its life with HER BODY decides to grant. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

I think we can (almost) all agree that a fetus is human (with the exception of this one dude who thinks it's a virus). You also previously agreed that it's alive. So it's human life.
It also de facto IS a SEPERATE human life, whether you like it or not. It's connected very closely to the mother but it's not the same as the mother. Most scientist and doctors including the ones performing abortions agree on that. Like I said many times before - a fetus is not an appendix to the mother - it's a human being with it's very own DNA, blood type, heart, arms, legs, fingers, etc. - you get the point. Yes, it's similar to the parents, yet NOT the same. And while it's living inside the mother for a while, it still and already IS a seperate human life.

[QUOTE=beelzebub] The fetus is not an individual human being because its existence DEPENDS on another individual. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

The same is true for any newborn. In fact it's true for any child up to I'm not even sure what age. Yet for some reason most people think it's wrong to kill them after birth, but fine to do it before.


[QUOTE=beelzebub] You want to control other person’s decisions about their body and I say that is WRONG and EVIL. More so than killing a fetus. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Again - NO, I DO NOT want to control what a person does to their body. I want to control what they're doing to the fetus' body. They can do whatever the hell they want with themselves. Just don't rip apart a new human life.

[QUOTE=beelzebub]I say that abortion is an acceptable choice as long as there is no other alternative. In other words: If they are able to take the fetus and put it into a device and it can carry it till its independent. However I state this as a secondary option. The PRIMARY choice is the mothers!

So basically you'd agree with a woman having an abortion at 39 weeks pregnant. Just as long as the baby hasn't slipped out yet, it's fair game then :mad: ???? Kind of along the lines of - ooops, had you been born yesterday you would have most likely been fine because at least the law would have protected you. Since you were gonna stay in to term - you get your brains sucked out.

Let me ask you another question - do you think it's wrong to kill a newborn? If so why? If not why not?

And in the event that you do think it's wrong - how is that different from killing the fetus while it's still inside of the woman? They're really not much different from each other. Depending on the week of pregnancy they may actually not at all be different from each other.

[General Septem]

Yeah, I see a difference between our stances though: You as treat the fetus as having the rights as any seperate human being.

We treat everyone as having the same rights as everyone else does. That means old people, young people, black people, Jews, Mexicans, Native Americans - everyone.


That’s just not the way it is. The fetus is not an individual human being because its existence DEPENDS on another individual.

And who are we to say this has anything to do with his or her right to live? Who are we to say to any human being, "because of such-and-such, you don't have a right to live"?

Black people have dark skin, and Americans in the early 20th century and before were positive this meant blacks had no rights. Jews have big noses, and Hitler was positive this meant they had no rights. Hell, Hitler was positive that the fact that someone did not have blond hair and blue eyes meant they had no rights.

They all had every bit as much of a basis for these claims as you do - they had one thing that separates us from them, and they assume this means "they" have no rights, because either they're black, or they're Jewish, or because they're inside someone else. It's all the same bullshit. Nobody in the 50s wanted to see black people in their restrooms. Nobody in Nazi, Germany wanted to see Jews. These people were considered "infestations" and "viruses", and an inconvenience to individuals and to society. Sound familiar?

The human right to live has NEVER been rightly sacrificed in the name of personal freedom, and this should be no different.


Yet you insist this is about "control". It's not about control, or being a Nazi. I am fighting for MY rights. That's right - MINE, along with everyone else's, living or dead, born or preborn. Sure, I'm out of the womb now, I can take a deep breath and thank God I was my mother's and not some other woman's kid. But the fact will still remain, I COULD HAVE BEEN LEGALLY KILLED! I'm lucky to be alive.

Forget all the infanthood diseases I could have caught, I could have been ficking murdered. Ripped apart limb from limb by a vaccum cleaner and flushed down the fucking toilet. To think that for nine months of my life, I was considered to be worth shit by a good deal of people. Worthy of being dismembered and put down the same drain people vomit in after a night of drinking. ANYONE who doesn't believe abortion is an immediate and direct attack upon the sanctity of human life - anyone who "thinks it's wrong but thinks the mother should choose", anyone who supports abortion as long as the mother was raped, anyone who thinks there's nothing wrong with it at all - anyone who doesn't think abortion is a vile and disgusting desecration of human life is responsible for that prejudice against me and every other human being ever to grace this planet and every human being who will grace this planet.

So taking this all into consideration, and then realizing it's not just me. It's EVERYONE. People I LOVE were considered shit.

Sure, now that you're born you don't have a problem supporting abortion because you know it could never happen to you. Just remember this: because of you, yourself, and everyone who feels the same way you do, it is a fucking miracle you're even standing here today.

We're living in a society where we have to thank our mothers for not killing us. How pathetic.

[normlman]

We're living in a society where we have to thank our mothers for not killing us. How pathetic.[/QUOTE]


LOL, very True.

I really enjoy reviewing all of yoohoo's high strung, sensitive, emotional, well thought 'discussion board quotes'. It's druly the highlight of my evenin' when I have the free time to drop by.

Let's all sing a song I've been workin' on:
sing in a country western style.

"Jesus took my wife today,
They loaded up and drove away
I think i'll just get drunk, ok
I don't know what else to say..

But I'm as good as that guy named Jesus.
I can heal a cripple with prosthesis,
And I can walk on water when it freezes...
Oh I'm as good as that guy named Jesus.
-And Jesus better watch his back."

woohoo, let's have a fine young woman in the room whistle a sweet ditty to end her up with...

<cakoughm>...scuse me.
I don't really know how to one can formulate an argument for something like abortion, as I would have supported my son's mother if that would have been what she wanted 9 years ago....however, I'm very thankful she did not because me and Lucas are best buds now that I'm back from Iraq, and out of the USMC. But I also found out just how big of a 'slut-faced cunt-whore' his bitch mother is. I will hopefully have partial custody of my son by the end of the month and he is the coolest person for me to hang out with and I swell up inside when he hugs me, or asks me for advise, or help. Kids are fantastic. But I guess the whole hazing process of actually getting to be a human is the 9 months inside of the womb, lucky little guys/or gals,and being fortunate enough to make it to day one, the big D.O.B.
It really is hard to argue with abortion, as it 'is' legal.
but it's very easy to disagree with it. Which I do about many things legal.
I do believe that we are all a part of a great design, that everyone has a plan, if for nothing more than to set a poor example.

kudos to all of ya's for the good laughs and interesting entertainment.

regards,
CG

[beelzebub]

I think we can (almost) all agree that a fetus is human (with the exception of this one dude who thinks it's a virus). You also previously agreed that it's alive. So it's human life.

I stated A LONG TIME AGO that it is human life.


It also de facto IS a SEPERATE human life, whether you like it or not. It's connected very closely to the mother but it's not the same as the mother.

defacto...? bullshit! You might want to get your facts from a source that’s not anti-choice.

Whether YOU like it or not:
IT IS CONNECTED TO HER
IT IS INSIDE HER BODY
IT RELIES ON HER FOR ALL LIFE SUPPORT

Without her the fetus would not live. However she can live without the fetus.


Most scientist and doctors including the ones performing abortions agree on that.

PLEASE don’t come in here with your make-believe bullshit. You don’t know this.


Like I said many times before - a fetus is not an appendix to the mother - it's a human being with it's very own DNA, blood type, heart, arms, legs, fingers, etc. - you get the point.

Who said I said that is was like an appendix? I don’t care id it has its own DNA and fingers. You are missing "De facto" that if it were not apart of her body then it could survive independently.


Yes, it's similar to the parents, yet NOT the same. And while it's living inside the mother for a while, it still and already IS a separate human life.

I am getting the feeling that you think that if you say the same thing as many times as you can it makes it true or it will convince me. Perhaps it makes you feel that you are proving your point? It doesn’t.


The same is true for any newborn. In fact it's true for any child up to I'm not even sure what age. Yet for some reason most people think it's wrong to kill them after birth, but fine to do it before.

I was talking about the fetus not the newborn! The main difference between them is that any human can surrogate for the newborn which is not true for the fetus. Furthermore the mother is not providing EVERYTHING NECESARY FOR LIFE (i.e. oxygen, environmental protection)


Again - NO, I DO NOT want to control what a person does to their body. I want to control what they're doing to the fetus' body. They can do whatever the hell they want with themselves. Just don't rip apart a new human life.

You don’t get it do you? That’s the same thing. In order to control the fetus you must control another human’s body.


So basically you'd agree with a woman having an abortion at 39 weeks pregnant.

You like putting words in my mouth don't you?


Let me ask you another question - do you think it's wrong to kill a newborn? If so why? If not why not?

I think killing a newborn is wrong because it is a separate human life. It is no longer totally dependent on another human being.


How is that different from killing the fetus while it's still inside of the woman? They're really not much different from each other. Depending on the week of pregnancy they may actually not at all be different from each other.

You sound unsure. There is a reason for this: You know, you don’t know. Here is a website I give to my students when we cover embryology:
http://www.visembryo.com/baby/index.html

There are significant differences between a zygote and a morula. There are significant differences between a fetus and an infant and on and on.

[Dakota]

[QUOTE=beelzebub]
defacto...? bullshit! You might want to get your facts from a source that’s not anti-choice. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

What kind of an argument is that? You might want to get your facts from a scource then that's not pro abortion - duh


[QUOTE=beelzebub] Without her the fetus would not live. However she can live without the fetus. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Yes - there are many people I can live without. Does that give me the right to kill them - NO. Yeah, yeah - it's not a person, it's a fetus ... It's HUMAN LIFE!


[QUOTE=beelzebub] PLEASE don’t come in here with your make-believe bullshit. You don’t know this. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Uuuhh - read some science magazines will ya. Yes - I'm going to repeat myself (just like you continue to do). There's no questions as to the fetus being a seperate human life - that's not what the debate around abortion is about. It's about the value of the new, separate human life.


[QUOTE=beelzebub]
Who said I said that is was like an appendix? I don’t care id it has its own DNA and fingers. You are missing "De facto" that if it were not apart of her body then it could survive independently. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Starting at 21 weeks old a fetus can survive - not independently since again even Emma at 6 months old can't do that yet - but at 21 weeks old the fetus CAN survive outside the mother.
Does that mean then at least at that stage of pregnancy abortion is wrong? Or is it that just because the baby isn't gonna be premature it's still fair game??

And please don't confuse my asking you questions with me being insecure about my own opinion! In a discussion questions are a useful tool to find out more about the other person's opinion.

[QUOTE=beelzebub]
I am getting the feeling that you think that if you say the same thing as many times as you can it makes it true or it will convince me. Perhaps it makes you feel that you are proving your point? It doesn’t. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Well - No. I don't think that at all. Excuse me for basically saying the same thing over and over again - which is in essence ABORTION STINKS - it's my opinions and it's not going to change. Since you don't feel like changing your opinion, I'd appreciate the personal freedom of not changing mine without getting insulted for it.
And after all - do you actually feel like you're NOT saying the same thing over and over again??? Take a look at your posts ...


[QUOTE=beelzebub] I was talking about the fetus not the newborn! The main difference between them is that any human can surrogate for the newborn which is not true for the fetus. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Yes and I'm talking about that at 21 weeks pregnant a fetus might very well be a premature newborn. Maybe I'm not saying it right - at the same stage of development/pregnancy the new human life CAN BE EITHER OR - a fetus inside the mother, or a newborn in ICU. Yet the fetus has NO rights and might as well be blown to bits and pieces, but the premiee in ICU is protected by the law and most peoples opinion that it would be wrong to kill it.
Why is it okay to kill while the mother still carries it, but not okay to kill after a preterm delivery. It's one and the same fetus - why the double standard???

[QUOTE=beelzebub] You like putting words in my mouth don't you? [QUOTE=beelzebub]

No - I thought you meant that as long as the mother carries the baby it's fair game. Clearly I misunderstoon and I apoligize. If you could clariy I'd appreciate it.


[QUOTE=beelzebub] You sound unsure. There is a reason for this: You know, you don’t know. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

See above. Asking questions does not mean insecurity. It' means I'm trying to find out what you think. I realize you and all the other pro abortion people have been very reluctant to answer questions. Not sure why ...

Gotta go. Emma just woke up ...

[who897]

That has gotta be one of the most idiotic idea's I have ever heard.

[beelzebub]

Yes - there are many people I can live without. Does that give me the right to kill them - NO. Yeah, yeah - it's not a person, it's a fetus ... It's HUMAN LIFE!

Like apples and oranges. A fetus RESIDES INSIDE ANOTHER human. People who annoy you don't.


There's no questions as to the fetus being a seperate human life - that's not what the debate around abortion is about. It's about the value of the new, separate human life.

I read science texts, attend seminars and teach Biology. It is not a separate human. It is contained in another human. Anyone who debates to the different is irrational. Perhaps you mean that it is a distinct organism as to the mother? That’s somewhat true.... but then again it has more than half of her genes.


Starting at 21 weeks old a fetus can survive - not independently since again even Emma at 6 months old can't do that yet - but at 21 weeks old the fetus CAN survive outside the mother.

So................ what about week...... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 18, 19 & 20?


And please don't confuse my asking you questions with me being insecure about my own opinion! In a discussion questions are a useful tool to find out more about the other person's opinion.

Fine.... But I wasn’t talking about your questions. I was talking about the timid-like way you write and also how at times I get the impression that you are not positive about the facts or information you state.


Well - No. I don't think that at all. Excuse me for basically saying the same thing over and over again - which is in essence ABORTION STINKS - it's my opinions and it's not going to change. Since you don't feel like changing your opinion, I'd appreciate the personal freedom of not changing mine without getting insulted for it.

Sorry if I insulted you. I am a bit rye in my humor. However I get annoyed when people make statements that are totally wrong but insist they are right.


And after all - do you actually feel like you're NOT saying the same thing over and over again??? Take a look at your posts ...

Of course I am. I keep getting the same question OVER AND OVER. The difference here is that I am not saying "Abortion is right and just" over and over. When you say "Abortion is wrong" it’s not debating ... its stating your opinion OVER AND OVER.


Yes and I'm talking about that at 21 weeks pregnant a fetus might very well be a premature newborn.

The fact is that most abortions occur WELL BEFORE the 21st week (most occur before the 8th week).


Why is it okay to kill while the mother still carries it, but not okay to kill after a preterm delivery. It's one and the same fetus - why the double standard???

It’s not a double standard. You are so hell bent on focusing on the fetus you neglect thinking about the rights of the mother. The reason that there is a line drawn is because we value both humans. However the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the fetus.

[Dakota]

Like apples and oranges. A fetus RESIDES INSIDE ANOTHER human. People who annoy you don't. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

How can it be like apples and oranges. The fetus before birth is the same living organism or whatever you want to call it as the baby after birth. Once it's born it's just bigger and more developed. Does an orange turn into an apple at a certain age, stage or maybe after being harvested? No. A baby certainly isn't an orange that turned into an apple.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] I read science texts, attend seminars and teach Biology. It is not a separate human. It is contained in another human. Anyone who debates to the different is irrational. Perhaps you mean that it is a distinct organism as to the mother? That’s somewhat true.... but then again it has more than half of her genes. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Well, I can't say I attend seminars, but I do read science texts, and over and over again people agree that with a pregnant woman you have two human lifes at hand - the woman's and the fetus' - we just have to figure out how much value we give to either one of those lifes.
Also just because the baby is contained in another human doesn't mean it's the SAME thing. Something can be contained in something else yet be an entirely different thing. Just because a peach is contained in a can doesn't mean that the peach is part of the can.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] So................ what about week...... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 18, 19 & 20? [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Well - you know my opinion. I believe as soon as the new human life is conceived it is worth keeping alive and protecting. However, I find abortions that occur during the second let alone third trimester especially evil. As soon as the fetus is old enough to survive outside the womb there is really absolutely NO more reason not to call is cold-blooded murder.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Fine.... But I wasn’t talking about your questions. I was talking about the timid-like way you write and also how at times I get the impression that you are not positive about the facts or information you state. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

I'm sorry to hear that. All I'm trying to do is a have a respectful exchange of ides, arguments and opinions. What you call timid is my best effort to be polite. You wouldn't believe how many sarcastic and rude posts I wrote and rewrote because I caught myself before went down to that level. I'm really happy to see that all the f/u this and f/u that has stopped. Don't confuse my ability to suck it up when I'm insulted and cursed at and to still respond kindly and politely with weakness.
That's what the inmates thought when I worked at the San Francisco County Jail. They thought just because I'm a nice person they can pull their BS. They soon learnt that aside from the director of our program I was the only who didn't by into their mainpulation and best efforts to intimidate me.
Also, I'm sure about my facts since most of them I've recently lived through. The rest of them I gather from reliable sources.
__________________________________________________ ______________________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Sorry if I insulted you. I am a bit rye in my humor. However I get annoyed when people make statements that are totally wrong but insist they are right. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

I'm sorry but I have a hard time catching your humor - and I laugh at pretty much anything. I'll try to relax more and look for the humor.
As far as the wrong statements - I assume you're talking about my opinion which in your mind is the WRONG one. Well - that's what one does when stating an opinion - one says something that they believe to be true. And if I believe for something to be true - of course I will insist that I am right. Nothing else would make any sense.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Of course I am. I keep getting the same question OVER AND OVER. The difference here is that I am not saying "Abortion is right and just" over and over. When you say "Abortion is wrong" it’s not debating ... its stating your opinion OVER AND OVER. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

So you're not saying "Abortion is right and just" over and over again. But you ARE saying "It's the woman's choice" OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER again. When you say "It's the woman's choice" it’s not debating ... its stating your opinion OVER AND OVER.
See how this goes both ways ...
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] The fact is that most abortions occur WELL BEFORE the 21st week (most occur before the 8th week). [QUOTE=beelzebub]

I knew that most abortions occur during the first trimester. I didn't know though that it was as early as the 8th week of pregnancy. I think in Germany - but don't quote me on this - it's closer to 10-12 weeks. Anyways -
Unfortunately - 8 weeks or 12 weeks - at that stage it's still a human heart that is stopped from beating.
__________________________________________________ ________________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] The reason that there is a line drawn is because we value both humans. However the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the fetus.

You're saying "The reason that there is a line drawn is because we value BOTH humans."
So we agree then when someone is pregnant there are TWO HUMANS that we're talking about???!!!

[General Septem]

It’s not a double standard. You are so hell bent on focusing on the fetus you neglect thinking about the rights of the mother. The reason that there is a line drawn is because we value both humans. However the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the fetus.

We're not neglecting anyone's rights. Nobody's rights outweigh anyone else's. Rights aren't ranked that way. Your stance is that the mother has the right to essentially do what she wishes; that the mother has freedom.

And you're right, everyone has that freedom - /as long as it does not infringe upon anyone else's freedoms/. That's the key word right there. We aren't free to do something that is going to result in someone else's freedoms becoming infringed upon.

We have a right, for example, to use weapons, but if someone's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is going to be infringed upon as a direct result of this weapon being used, you are overstepping your boundries and are now guily of assault with a deadly weapon.

So to claim that a woman can exersize her freedom by killing her unborn baby, you're acknowledging that the fetus has no rights, which is a direct contradiction to when you said you value both humans. This isn't an issue of the mother's rights being more important - either the fetus has rights or he doesn't.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

The reason that there is a line drawn is because we value both humans. However the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the fetus.


How could they outweigh the rights of the fetus by that much? So much that a lower level right of preference outweighs the highest level right there is, life? Why do you argue that the life of the fetus is that much less important than a personal preference of a misguided woman?

[beelzebub]

How can it be like apples and oranges? The fetus before birth is the same living organism or whatever you want to call it as the baby after birth.

Are you the same as the baby that you were? Now that span’s of time is greater but my point is that there are DISTINCT differences between a fetus and a newborn... one of which is that it is no longer physically attached.

Just because a peach is contained in a can doesn't mean that the peach is part of the can.

Better said: Is a peach apart of the peach tree?

[QUOTE=beelzebub] So................ what about week...... 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17 18, 19 & 20? [QUOTE=beelzebub]
Well - you know my opinion. I believe as soon as the new human life is conceived it is worth keeping alive and protecting.

The reason that I wrote this posting was in response to your reply to another posting about the inability of a fetus to survive outside the womb. You said Starting at 21 weeks old a fetus can survive – …bla bla bla… - but at 21 weeks old the fetus CAN survive outside the mother.”
The point I am making is that the vast majority of abortions occur before the 21st week. Therefore that is where the debate should be centered.

BTW - Late term abortions were hyped up to get anti-choice people hot. 1.4% of abortions occur at 21 weeks or later. In 1997, the Alan Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions past 24 weeks to be 0.08%

__________________________________________________ __________________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Fine.... But I wasn’t talking about your questions. I was talking about the timid-like way you write and also how at times I get the impression that you are not positive about the facts or information you state. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

You're saying "The reason that there is a line drawn is because we value BOTH humans."
So we agree then when someone is pregnant there are TWO HUMANS that we're talking about???!!!

Of course we are talking about two humans. One that is inside and attached to another (e.g. attached).

[who897]

I still don't see it. If something isn't born how can it be considered life? At what point do we concider this clump of cells a human? At conception? While it's still rammed up our collective penises or vagina's? At week 3 of it replicating it's cells? Just becuase something is kicking doesn't mean it's alive either, anyone ever kill something here, and have it twitch for hours? Does this fetus have rights, no it does not. It was not born a US Citizen, it is not human, it does not have unalienable rights. If it did, why isn't it illegal to smoke while pregnant. If it does have rights, why the hell isn't it illegal for the mother to do anything...if that clump of cells has rights, which yall firmly believe it does, than shouldn't the mother be locked down, to be safe, so as to not have accidents. I mean, if this clump of cells should be protected, the mother can not do anything that would jepordize it's continued existance.

All you pro life people are freaking rediculous.

[General Septem]

All you pro life people are freaking rediculous.

Nothing more ridiculous than preserving human life. I applaud you.

[beelzebub]

We're not neglecting anyone's rights. Nobody's rights outweigh anyone else's. Rights aren't ranked that way. Your stance is that the mother has the right to essentially do what she wishes; that the mother has freedom.

Anti-choice, by virtue of removing the choice of the mother, removes her rights over how her body is conducted.


And you're right, everyone has that freedom - /as long as it does not infringe upon anyone else's freedoms/. That's the key word right there. We aren't free to do something that is going to result in someone else's freedoms becoming infringed upon.

Your stance infringes on the rights of the person holding the fetus.


We have a right, for example, to use weapons, but if someone's right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness is going to be infringed upon as a direct result of this weapon being used, you are overstepping your boundries and are now guily of assault with a deadly weapon.

If we are to have personal freedom we cannot control what others do to their bodies.


So to claim that a woman can exersize her freedom by killing her unborn baby, you're acknowledging that the fetus has no rights, which is a direct contradiction to when you said you value both humans. This isn't an issue of the mother's rights being more important - either the fetus has rights or he doesn't.

It’s not a contradiction because we are talking about the point at which the fetus has rights .... Birth. At that moment rights are bestowed on the individual and not before. I say the fetus does not and should not have rights.

[beelzebub]

How could they outweigh the rights of the fetus by that much? So much that a lower level right of preference outweighs the highest level right there is, life?

Simple: the other option is social control over the bodies of members of society.


Why do you argue that the life of the fetus is that much less important than a personal preference of a misguided woman?

How nice that you put your little twist in there: "misguided". I have no intention of answering this question.

[Dakota]

Are you the same as the baby that you were? Now that span’s of time is greater but my point is that there are DISTINCT differences between a fetus and a newborn... one of which is that it is no longer physically attached.
[QUOTE=beelzebub][

Of course I AM the SAME PERSON that I was when I was a baby or a fetus for that matter. I've grown, I've learnt, I've developed a character and opinions, then changed my character just about 180 degrees along with many previous opinions - and yet - I am the same human being. I simply grew up. Sure cognitively I am very different from the way I was as a baby or fetus. But that is also true from the way I was as a teenager.

Now let me ask you again - what is the difference between a fetus who is born at 21 weeks and one who is still in the womb - other than the fact that one slipped out prematurely? What's the difference biologically and cognitively?
__________________________________________________ ____

[QUOTE=beelzebub][ Just because a peach is contained in a can doesn't mean that the peach is part of the can.

Better said: Is a peach apart of the peach tree? [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Yeah - that's a good point. This one kind of bit me in the ass :o. It does look like a part of the tree. But then it's clearly the tree's fruit and actually more importantly the seed to grow more trees. Maybe we should look at the fact that a tree will not deliberately abort green peaches before they're ripe enough to fulfill their purpose, just because it's inconvenient to carry all that fruit.
Or will they? I actually really don't know anything about peach trees ....
Bad example, won't be using it to make my point in the future ...
__________________________________________________ _____

[QUOTE=beelzebub] You said Starting at 21 weeks old a fetus can survive – …bla bla bla… - but at 21 weeks old the fetus CAN survive outside the mother.” [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Not sure what's BLA about this - they CAN and they HAVE. Go check it out. It's not a secret. It's actually all over the new when it happens.
__________________________________________________ ___

[QUOTE=beelzebub] BTW - Late term abortions were hyped up to get anti-choice people hot. 1.4% of abortions occur at 21 weeks or later. In 1997, the Alan Guttmacher Institute estimated the number of abortions past 24 weeks to be 0.08% [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Late term abortions are not hyped up by anyone. They are an outrage!!! ANY abortion past 24 weeks is nothing but cold-blooded murder and deserves as in Scott Peterson's case a charge with and conviction of it. For crying out loud at 24 weeks old you only have to "sacrifice" 12 more weeks of your life to carry this child. At 36 weeks pregnant it doesn't even count as preterm anymore and you can deliver. Get yourself some petocin, give the baby to loving parents who want it and go on with your life. 12 MORE WEEKS!
And even if the baby was born at 24 weeks - it can live.
Yet you think that 0.08% of the time someone's choice to tear that human being apart is perfectly acceptable rather than keeping it another 12 weeks and granting it a lifetime. I just don't get it.

Were you around while your partner was pregnant? Did you go to the ultrasounds, see the little guy, feel him, hear his heartbeat, talk to him, and later even feel him react to your voice?? Even if she would have only been one of the 0.08%, how can you think it would have been okay for your partner to choose to have his brains sucked out at that stage?
ONE abortion past 24 weeks, ONE SINGLE ONE is ONE TOO MANY.
__________________________________________________ ______

[QUOTE=beelzebub] The point I am making is that the vast majority of abortions occur before the 21st week. Therefore that is where the debate should be centered.

It already IS a human, even then - we've established that. You agreed to that in your last post. My stance is - nobody is to say that another human does not have the right to live, especially not when the only excuse for it is - "but they need me to survive". How lame is that!
__________________________________________________ ________

[QUOTE=beelzebub]
Of course we are talking about two humans. One that is inside and attached to another (e.g. attached).

I'm really glad we can finally agree that the fetus is a human :) - one without the right to live according to pro choice and current legislation, but once we can agree that it is in fact a human that we're talking about, there's hope ...

[General Septem]

Simple: the other option is social control over the bodies of members of society.

I still don't understand why you keep insisting this is a control issue. Nobody has ever accused any other obvious laws of being "social control over the bodies of members of society".

[General Septem]

Anti-choice, by virtue of removing the choice of the mother, removes her rights over how her body is conducted.

Your stance infringes on the rights of the person holding the fetus.

No, it does not, because like I said, our right over our own bodies STOPS when it infringes on others' rights. There is no double-infringement. Having an abortion infringes on another human being's right to life, therefore the mother's freedom over her own body does not even come into play.

Don't think I don't understand where you're coming from. I understand perfectly, and I believe your priorities are gravely twisted.


If we are to have personal freedom we cannot control what others do to their bodies.

Exactly, and by having an abortion, an unborn human being's body is forced to die, effectively controlling what happens to his or her body.


It’s not a contradiction because we are talking about the point at which the fetus has rights .... Birth. At that moment rights are bestowed on the individual and not before. I say the fetus does not and should not have rights.

That isn't what you said before. You said, and I quote:


It’s not a double standard. You are so hell bent on focusing on the fetus you neglect thinking about the rights of the mother. The reason that there is a line drawn is because we value both humans. However the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the fetus.

By mentioning the "rights of the fetus", you effectively say that the fetus has rights. So which is it?

[who897]

Your cheering for me?

[General Septem]

Your cheering for me?

I was being sarcastic.

[beelzebub]

Of course I AM the SAME PERSON that I was when I was a baby or a fetus for that matter. I've grown, I've learnt, I've developed a character and opinions, then changed my character just about 180 degrees along with many previous opinions - and yet - I am the same human being. sic

I totally disagree with your stance. You are nothing like the baby that you were. There have been tremendous physiological and developmental changed that have made you into the person that you are.
__________________________________________________ ________


Now let me ask you again - what is the difference between a fetus who is born at 21 weeks and one who is still in the womb - other than the fact that one slipped out prematurely? What's the difference biologically and cognitively?

I have already answered this question: One is inside the womb and the other isn't. I have also given you a website that identifies main phases with descriptions of EACH of the major differences between phase and the other.
__________________________________________________ ____


[QUOTE=beelzebub] Yeah - that's a good point. This one kind of bit me in the ass :o. It does look like a part of the tree. But then it's clearly the tree's fruit and actually more importantly the seed to grow more trees. Maybe we should look at the fact that a tree will not deliberately abort green peaches before they're ripe enough to fulfill their purpose, just because it's inconvenient to carry all that fruit.

Actually plants that have experienced unfavorable environmental conditions will stop reproduction and drop their fruit. Kangaroos will pull their young out of the pouch and throw them on the ground. There are many other examples.
__________________________________________________ _____


Not sure what's BLA about this - they CAN and they HAVE.

That’s just my way of letting you know that there were words in-between a quote that I have omitted. Its not "bla" as in bland, but "bla" as in bla bla bla (say it real fast). No offense meant.
__________________________________________________ ___


[QUOTE=beelzebub] Were you around while your partner was pregnant? ..bla bla bla.. SINGLE ONE is ONE TOO MANY.

I am gay and my partner can’t get pregnant. Our son is adopted.

I love my "grand-nephew" but I recommended to me teenage nieces that they abort. I still stand my recommendation.
__________________________________________________ ______


[QUOTE=beelzebub] The point I am making is that the vast majority of abortions occur before the 21st week. Therefore that is where the debate should be centered."

It already IS a human, even then - we've established that. You agreed to that in your last post. My stance is - nobody is to say that another human does not have the right to live, especially not when the only excuse for it is - "but they need me to survive". How lame is that!

As I have stated before. It is human, human tissue. I don’t see it as better than any other tissue or any more important.
__________________________________________________ ________


I'm really glad we can finally agree that the fetus is a human :) - one without the right to live according to pro choice and current legislation, but once we can agree that it is in fact a human that we're talking about, there's hope ...


I didn’t agree that it is an individual human being. I still stand by what I have said. You are misinterpreting what I have said. I feel as if though you are putting in a dig on me. That is annoying. Please explain.

[beelzebub]

No, it does not, because like I said, our right over our own bodies STOPS when it infringes on others' rights. There is no double-infringement. Having an abortion infringes on another human being's right to life, therefore the mother's freedom over her own body does not even come into play.

Ok,.. fine? I beg to differ......... better..... you know how I feel.


Don't think I don't understand where you're coming from. I understand perfectly, and I believe your priorities are gravely twisted.

Gee thanks. Is this really necessary GS?


Exactly, and by having an abortion, an unborn human being's body is forced to die, effectively controlling what happens to his or her body.

I don’t see it as having any rights. Therefore, this is a moot point.


That isn't what you said before. You said, and I quote:
By mentioning the "rights of the fetus", you effectively say that the fetus has rights. So which is it?

These two quotes describe two different viewpoints: The first one you quoted is my personal perspective. The second one is a global perspective. In other words: I used the word "we" to include all viewpoints.

[beelzebub]

I still don't understand why you keep insisting this is a control issue. Nobody has ever accused any other obvious laws of being "social control over the bodies of members of society".

That does not make this a illogical perspective. It is a control issue. If we had it your way women who become pregnant are forced to carry it to term because they have no other choice because people like you have taken them away..... therefore controling her decisions about her body.

[General Septem]

I totally disagree with your stance. You are nothing like the baby that you were. There have been tremendous physiological and developmental changed that have made you into the person that you are.
Yes, but she's the same human being. The same organism if you will. The problem is that you're imposing a sort of dichotomy between those that aren't born and those that are born, but the majority of your examples apply just as much to the differences between infants and adults or adolescents and adults even, rather than just fetuses and adults.

[General Septem]

That does not make this a illogical perspective. It is a control issue. If we had it your way women who become pregnant are forced to carry it to term because they have no other choice because people like you have taken them away..... therefore controling her decisions about her body.

Perhaps you did not read this:

We're not forcing anyone to do anything. It's like a "NO LEFT TURN" sign. Was it put there by tyrants to "force" someone to make a right-hand turn instead? Get the fuck outta here. Or was it put there because making a left-hand turn is dangerous and can result in someone getting killed or at the very least hold up traffic? You decide.

That's all abortion is. It's a left-hand turn, except someone /always/ gets killed.

There are many other ways you can get to where you want to go. There are many other places you can go to. You don't need to make that left-hand turn and put everyone on the road including yourself in danger.

[General Septem]

Gee thanks. Is this really necessary GS?

It wasn't intended as an insult. I just wanted to make sure you knew that I understand where you're coming from perfectly. Partially because you seem to be repeating yourself a bit, but it's also just good to know sometimes that you're making your point clear.


I don’t see it as having any rights. Therefore, this is a moot point.

You can't prove a fetus does not have the inalienable human right to life. You'll never prove that because it isn't something that can be proven.


These two quotes describe two different viewpoints: The first one you quoted is my personal perspective. The second one is a global perspective. In other words: I used the word "we" to include all viewpoints.

I only cited one quote. You said "the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the fetus". That was you, you weren't quoting anyone and you eren't speaking for anyone. So which is it?

Before you start talking about legal rights, by the way, bear in mind that even you don't always agree with the rights we have and the rights we don't have. Namely the right to marry someone of the same sex. Just food for thought.

[beelzebub]

You can't prove a fetus does not have the inalienable human right to life. You'll never prove that because it isn't something that can be proven.

Rights are not scientifically testable hypothesis to be "proven". They are granted or not granted by people. For instance, you cannot prove a right to life. You can show me where that idea is written but no more.


I only cited one quote. You said "the rights of the mother outweigh the rights of the fetus". That was you, you weren't quoting anyone and you eren't speaking for anyone. So which is it?

The mother outweighs the fetus' rights. If you have a value of 1 and a value of 0: 1 outweighs 0.

[General Septem]

Rights are not scientifically testable hypothesis to be "proven". They are granted or not granted by people. For instance, you cannot prove a right to life. You can show me where that idea is written but no more.

The mother outweighs the fetus' rights. If you have a value of 1 and a value of 0: 1 outweighs 0.

So what if someone chose not to grant you certain rights, for some reason or another? Would that be just?

[normlman]

• "When I talk of the purpose of life, I am thinking not only of human life, but of all life on Earth and of the life which must exist upon other planets throughout the universe. It is only of life on Earth, however, that one can speak with any certainty. It seems to me that all life on Earth, the sum total of life upon the Earth, has purpose." ~ Clifford D. Simak

If circumstance rules that a life is aborted, then it has no purpose, and life morns no loss.

regards,
NORMLman

"We the People are the rightful master of both congress and the courts - not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution." Abraham Lincoln

[General Septem]

If circumstance rules that a life is aborted, then it has no purpose, and life morns no loss.
Let me remind you that a human being is being killed.

[Ape-Shit]

Just take the "Pill" and everything will be ok in the morning.....!

[General Septem]

Just take the "Pill" and everything will be ok in the morning.....!

The "pill" still kills the embryo, so no it won't be "ok".

[Ape-Shit]

Thats what the "Pill" is suppose to do General........So everything will be ok in the Morning!

[General Septem]

Thats what the "Pill" is suppose to do General........So everything will be ok in the Morning!

You were doing well for a while, and now you're going back to this... oh well. :/

[beelzebub]

So what if someone chose not to grant you certain rights, for some reason or another? Would that be just?

I am an independent human being. I am not inside another human. My life functions are not dependent on a host human. This is a different argument.

You are wanting to grant rights to a fetus in leu of the mothers rights.

[Dakota]

I didn’t agree that it is an individual human being. I still stand by what I have said. You are misinterpreting what I have said. I feel as if though you are putting in a dig on me. That is annoying. Please explain.


I really wanna answer to your whole post and others too, but I really don't have time right now. I'm planning Emma's baptism, we're gonna have a crap-load of people over, my parents are flying in from Germany on Tuesday and a close friend of mine the week after to be her godfather, ...
Anyway, I guess all I'm trying to say is, I'm gonna be busy :o

I did wanna say though - I'm not sure what "putting in a dig on you" really means (English is my second language), but I assume it's something along the lines of putting words in your mouth which is definitely NOT my intention and I'm sorry to annoy you.
You had said that there is a cut-off as to how far along one can have an abortion because "we value BOTH HUMANS". With "BOTH HUMANS" you must have meant the mother and the newlife growing inside her. I really don't know what else it could have been. And actually come to think of it - that statement does actually also imply that the "other" human the fetus does have value. Hmm, that's what I gathered from your statement anyway. Please correct me, I'm sure I am wrong ;)

Anyways - I'm sorry to flake out on you guys for a little bit, but I have to find a reasonable hotel for my friend, get the guestroom ready for my parents and start thinking about how I'm gonna feed all those people on the day of the baptism :o ...
I'll talk to you all later :)

[beelzebub]

You had said that there is a cut-off as to how far along one can have an abortion because "we value BOTH HUMANS". With "BOTH HUMANS" you must have meant the mother and the newlife growing inside her. I really don't know what else it could have been. And actually come to think of it - that statement does actually also imply that the "other" human the fetus does have value. Hmm, that's what I gathered from your statement anyway. Please correct me, I'm sure I am wrong ;)

Oh I see. This is the same problem that GS had with what I wrote. I value the rights of the mother you value the rights of the fetus..... we value both humans. I should have elaborated more.

What is your first language?

[General Septem]

Oh I see. This is the same problem that GS had with what I wrote. I value the rights of the mother you value the rights of the fetus..... we value both humans. I should have elaborated more.

Except I value both humans. Just because I don't think someone should kill another human being doesn't mean I don't value their rights.

[General Septem]

I am an independent human being. I am not inside another human. My life functions are not dependent on a host human. This is a different argument.

You are wanting to grant rights to a fetus in leu of the mothers rights.

No. Not in lieu of the mother's rights.

We're talking about another human being here. You cannot deliberately and directly kill another human being. I don't know how much clearer it can get.

"I am an independent human being. I am not inside another human. My life functions are not dependent on a host human. This is a different argument."

So? I have white skin. I don't disappear in the shadows. My visibility is not as dependent on external light sources as if I were black.

That doesn't mean I'm any more or less likely to steal.

[beelzebub]

Except I value both humans. Just because I don't think someone should kill another human being doesn't mean I don't value their rights.

You dont value her right to choose what happens to her body.

[General Septem]

You dont value her right to choose what happens to her body.

Let me rephrase that.

Nobody has a right to kill ANY another human being except in self defense against an unjust assailant.

She can choose what happens to her body so long as it does not involve killing another human being.

[beelzebub]

No. Not in lieu of the mother's rights.

We're talking about another human being here. You cannot deliberately and directly kill another human being. I don't know how much clearer it can get.

You cannot control another human beings body. I dont know how much clearer it can get.


This posting:
"I am an independent human being. I am not inside another human. My life functions are not dependent on a host human. This is a different argument."

Was in response to [QUOTE=General Septem]So what if someone chose not to grant you certain rights, for some reason or another? Would that be just?

You wrote this:

So? I have white skin. I don't disappear in the shadows. My visibility is not as dependent on external light sources as if I were black.
That doesn't mean I'm any more or less likely to steal.

I think you misunderstood.

I mean: I see a separate, independent human as VASTLY different from a fetus.The reason that your example is irrelevant is because you are comparing two different things with attributes & values that only applies to one.

In case I misunderstand: It does not mean anything other than you have different colored skin.

[General Septem]

You cannot control another human beings body. I dont know how much clearer it can get.

Perhaps you misunderstand. Nobody has ever had the right to kill other human beings because it's their right to do what they want with their body. Whether the target is independent or not is irrelevent.

Again: she can choose what happens to her body so long as it does not involve killing another human being. Nobody else has the right to do it and neither should pregnant mothers.


This posting:
"I am an independent human being. I am not inside another human. My life functions are not dependent on a host human. This is a different argument."

I think you misunderstood.

I mean: I see a separate, independent human as VASTLY different from a fetus.The reason that your example is irrelevant is because you are comparing two different things with attributes & values that only applies to one.

In case I misunderstand: It does not mean anything other than you have different colored skin.

You are segregating fetuses from other humans based on trivial attributes that we are all still "guilty" of to an extent, in exactly the same way as the racist fucks did when they segregated blacks.

You claim that because a fetus exhibits certain attributes, he or she has no rights. This is the same thing that the Ku Klux Klan does, only the group that is segregated is different and the attributes are different. The attribute does not matter. We are all human beings.

[who897]

Jesus Fucking Christ you are a pansy. Not all life, not even all human life is important. I don't give a shit about anyone else's lives, they are of no concern to me. Where in the hell did we become so wrapped up in the moral issues at hand? I say if someone close to me is killed, I will morn them, but that is an eventuallity....it will happen sooner or later. Not everyone gets a shot at life anyways, Stop being a pussy, be a man, and put down the pictures of the fuzzy little puppy, it's pathetic.



I just had this discusion with my sister the other day. She is against abortion, I am for it. She said it is not an effective means of birth control.......I say it is the only effective means of birth control. It is the only means in which that I am 100% positive the bitch will not have a kid.

Ohh so the pill is bad now is it? It is no worse then a chick having her period. There just happens to be some man spunk in there. Are you so totally against sex that you would use an issue like abortion to try and prevent others from enjoying it? Maybe I should go to jail, the amount of jizz that I kill by letting it go down the drain or throwing in the trash with the paper towel, or every chick go to jail just because they have their period. When will you people stop, take a look around, the world is changing. Granted not all change is good, for example, Rap music is very popular. You are the same people that would appose numerious scientific researches just because it may be a bit moral questionable. The bus is moving get on board, get out the way, or get run over. Choice is yours.

[General Septem]

Jesus Fucking Christ you are a pansy. Not all life, not even all human life is important. I don't give a shit about anyone else's lives, they are of no concern to me.

And this, people, is the underlying cause of all the bullshit in the world.

[who897]

BTW everyone has a right to kill anyone they want. Everyone has a right to do as they please. You just have to deal with the consiquences of your actions.

[General Septem]

BTW everyone has a right to kill anyone they want. Everyone has a right to do as they please. You just have to deal with the consiquences of your actions.

Everyone has a /choice/ as dictated by free will, but that doesn't mean they have the right.

[who897]

Everyone has a right. According to law, you have a right do do as you please. Now, your bible says you can not. 2 different things. Your rights and your morality are 2 different things.

[General Septem]

Everyone has a right. According to law, you have a right do do as you please. Now, your bible says you can not. 2 different things. Your rights and your morality are 2 different things.

And where the hell do you live that allows its citizens to commit murder?

[Ape-Shit]

Just get married, then you will have plenty of rights;

The Right to remain silent! Cause she doesn't want to hear it!

Anything you say may be held against you! That's a fact!

You may have the Right to an Attorney! If you screw up you may need one! Unfortunately, almost always the woman wins!

You may have your Rights, but you also have the consequences that goes along with them....!

[General Septem]

Anything you say may be held against you! That's a fact!

"Tits." :D

[who897]

See ignorance of the law is funny. BTW USA. Any hoot, would you concider sodomy bad/evil?

[General Septem]

See ignorance of the law is funny. BTW USA. Any hoot, would you concider sodomy bad/evil?

Of course. What does that have to do with abortion?

[Ape-Shit]

"Tits." :D

You Sick Puppy.....!

[who897]

So, getting a blow job is bad?!?!?!?!? Because I have never heard of sodomy causing some bitch to get pregnant. You know what you are, selfish, you don't want anyone to have any fun. I'm not selfish, wanting to kill a fetus, that is just practical. How boring must your sex life be? Gosh, dang, I think if I thought like you I'd go pop a 9mm in my head or something cuz, shit, that is retarded.

[General Septem]

So, getting a blow job is bad?!?!?!?!? Because I have never heard of sodomy causing some bitch to get pregnant.

I assumed you were talking about pedo rape, but (damn I need a new fucking keyboard, this thing's shitting out on me) oral and anal sex are only wrong if they are used as an end rather than a means.


You know what you are, selfish, you don't want anyone to have any fun. I'm not selfish, wanting to kill a fetus, that is just practical.

Who the fuck are you to be calling me selfish? When's the last time you did a damn fucking thing for anyone but yourself?


How boring must your sex life be?

Not boring at all, actually. ;)

[who897]

pedo rape, don't know what that is, guessing something along the lines of pedophile. But nope, more of a thing to do in a bitches ass or mouth or hmmm cough cough, tits.

When is the last time I have done anything for someone else?!?!?!?! I'm doing it right now, I've been doing it for the past 5 years. I am serving my country, I am serving my people, I am serving in the United States Coast Guard....I save peoples lives, I go out when no one else will, I am willing to die for others freedoms, I am willing to die to save someone elses lives....now, what was your fucking question again? And no, I don't think a fetus is a person/human.


Off topic, I only asked about your sex life, cuz I got me some booty I got me some booty. And it wasn't some fat AK chick, she is petit, and pretty hot.


I think Septem (I aint callin you General for obvious reasons) the only thing we can agree apon is that we disagree. Agreed? But I will keep posting things as they pop in my head.

[General Septem]

I think Septem (I aint callin you General for obvious reasons) the only thing we can agree apon is that we disagree. Agreed? But I will keep posting things as they pop in my head.

Obvious reasons? You mean because you're in the Coast Guard and you're afraid it would be some kind of blasphemy?

Just because I'm a self-proclaimed General doesn't make me any less of a General. I am the one and only member of an order I created, that has no name and no real guidelines or anything, and in this order I hold the rank of General. :D

By the way, I would never have sex with any girl I think of as a "bitch".

[who897]

I use the term bitch affectionatly. I would never say bitch to someone I am trying to make love to, grant you.

I mean, because I am in a service where we have admirals, and the other service has generals, who have put the time and effort into their service that they have been granted to be called such, it would be dishonarable to give the term so freely to someone....how to say this delicatly....I can't....less deserving.


I still think my being a Damage Controlman, is way cooler sounding then General though.


And I agree I would never have sex with someone I actually thought of as a bitch, I would fuck the shit out of her though, then toss her out like rotten milk.

[beelzebub]

Perhaps you misunderstand. Nobody has ever had the right to kill other human beings because it's their right to do what they want with their body. Whether the target is independent or not is irrelevent.
Again: she can choose what happens to her body so long as it does not involve killing another human being. Nobody else has the right to do it and neither should pregnant mothers.

GS - come on and stop being so narrow minded. Abortion has been around for many many years. Even before the day of surgical abortions people "rooted it out" (AKA used medicines and magic to abort). It was accepted then. Narrowminded conservative people such as yourself see the fetus as a fullly fleged human will all the rights as an adult. It is not. I and many other like me do not see it that way for VALAD and MEANINGFULL reasons that you downplay as insufficent and lacking merit.

AGAIN; I say that a woman may choose to do whatever she wants with her body. If she wants to get the fetus out. It is her right. Let the fetus find a new womb.


You are segregating fetuses from other humans based on trivial attributes that we are all still "guilty" of to an extent, in exactly the same way as the racist fucks did when they segregated blacks.... This is the same thing that the Ku Klux Klan does, only the group that is segregated is different and the attributes are different...."

GS,... are you saying that I am using racist tactics? That is totally out of line and.... ignorant. People often turn to insults when they know they are loosing an argument. I thought we were debating not arguing. Furthermore; You are also trying to make my argument akin to an infamous set of beliefs. This is an intellectually inferior tactic used to down-play my position. It’s also rude and out of line. You need to check yourself or are you are trying to poke a fight?!

I am merely stating the facts. A fetus is inside another human being. That human may decide what will happen with its body. If you want to say the fetus is not her body, that’s fine but, she has the right to put it out of her body if she chooses.

This is not like racism bigotry because a fetus is not a race. It is not prejudice because I am not judging the fetus. I am literally saying that its rights are subject to the mother’s discretion due to the fact that they are in the same body. If society values the fetus more than the mother’s rights then she looses her rights to the fetus.

[General Septem]

GS - come on and stop being so narrow minded. Abortion has been around for many many years. Even before the day of surgical abortions people "rooted it out" (AKA used medicines and magic to abort). It was accepted then.

What does that prove? People have been using voodoo for a long time too. Where's the logic in pointing out tat something's been around for many years as if that makes it right?


Narrowminded conservative people such as yourself see the fetus as a fullly fleged human will all the rights as an adult. It is not. I and many other like me do not see it that way for VALAD and MEANINGFULL reasons that you downplay as insufficent and lacking merit.

But the fetus IS human. That's an irrefutable biological fact. Who are we to say that a certain group of human beings are worthy of life but say another group isn't?


AGAIN; I say that a woman may choose to do whatever she wants with her body. If she wants to get the fetus out. It is her right. Let the fetus find a new womb.

If abortion was merely "removing a fetus" then that would be one thing. It is not. Abortion is not a surgery performed on the mother, it is a surgery performed on the fetus - to kill it. The fact that the fetus is removed is merely a secondary effect of the abortion. The procedure itself directly and deliberately kills the fetus, and that's why it's wrong.

If you're so concerned about the rights of the mother, then stop arguing about why you think abortion is not wrong and start coming up with ways to "remove" the fetus without killing them.


GS,... are you saying that I am using racist tactics? That is totally out of line and.... ignorant. People often turn to insults when they know they are loosing an argument. I thought we were debating not arguing.

It's not an insult. It is a comparison. If you feel insulted by it, perhaps you're just feeling guilty?


Furthermore; You are also trying to make my argument akin to an infamous set of beliefs. This is an intellectually inferior tactic used to down-play my position. It’s also rude and out of line. You need to check yourself or are you are trying to poke a fight?!

Did I strike a nerve? Instead of trying to demean what I said by acting like I said something offensive, you could be explaining exactly what makes segregation against fetuses any damn different from segregation against Jews or blacks.


I am merely stating the facts. A fetus is inside another human being. That human may decide what will happen with its body. If you want to say the fetus is not her body, that’s fine but, she has the right to put it out of her body if she chooses.

But like I said, the abortion is not performed on the woman. It's performed on the fetus. If you can find some way to remove the fetus without killing them, I would be all for it.


This is not like racism bigotry because a fetus is not a race.

One could say the same about sexism but it wouldn't make any more sense.


It is not prejudice because I am not judging the fetus. I am literally saying that its rights are subject to the mother’s discretion due to the fact that they are in the same body.

Those truely guilty of racism and similar prejudices rarely come out and say they judge the group they are prejudiced against. Like you, they all have their "valid" reasons. They are deluding themselves.


If society values the fetus more than the mother’s rights then she looses her rights to the fetus.

I'm not suggesting we value anyone's rights more than anyone else's. This is a matter of /which/ rights are more important, not /whose/ rights. The fetus does not have the right to kill his or her mother either. I mean that would be absurd.

[Ape-Shit]

A Fetus is a Fetus!
A Human is a Human (Not a Fetus)!
Abortion is just that "Abortion"!
However, with the "Morning After Pill", Abortion is just a "DEAD" Issue!
Sorry to say, Tit's not a "Racist Issue"! (The Pill doesn't discriminate)!
If you can't win your agrument on the playing field, you should leave the field!

To change subjects in mid-field because of someones color, race or sexual perference is totally out of character and in poor taste.

If you can't address the issues in a respectfull manner, please move to another thread!

Your cooperation in this matter is deeply appreciated.

[who897]

Did you actually say that segregation of a fetus is akin to against Jews and Black. You my friend, are a fucking retard. (BTW I don't hold myself to high enough standards not to insult) Ok, I'll play along with this, but only for so long....if it is segregation..as you wanna call it, don't the blacks, jews, muslims, latinos, blondes...well, not blondes, know that they are being prejudged? I for one can say for certain those clumps of cells do not.

As we grow old we gain more freedoms. At this point in all our lives we are recieving all the freedoms that we can attain. When we hit 21 we could drink, 18 smoke;vote;serve our country (17 w/ parental consent) 16 depending on the state drive. The other freedoms came w/ size, just to ride rides. As a clump of cells, your freedoms are null, after you are born no one should be allowed to kill you, that is your freedom.

Abortion is preformed on the women putz. If you got cancer do they preform on the cancer or on you. (I don't wanna hear no shit about fetus not being cancers, cuz it's pretty much the same thing at that point in time, a bunch of cells replicating) I am sure you could remove the fetus and it would technically still be a group of living cells. I prefer though, ripping them up with a sharp object, or sucking them out w/ a vacuum hell of a lot cooler.

I can't believe you called it segregation, that's funny.

[General Septem]

don't the blacks, jews, muslims, latinos, blondes...well, not blondes, know that they are being prejudged? I for one can say for certain those clumps of cells do not.

Does anyone fucking care? I know I don't.

[General Septem]

A Fetus is a Fetus!
A Human is a Human (Not a Fetus)!

And You're an Idiot! (I'm going to start talking like you)

That's like saying "A Child is a Child! A Human is a Human (Not a Child)!". It doesn't make any sense.


Sorry to say, Tit's not a "Racist Issue"! (The Pill doesn't discriminate)!

Oh, but it does. The "Pill" only kills people who haven't been born yet. Well. With the exception of the many times the mother has also died from it. But don't worry about that little statistic, it *probably* won't happen to you. I hope. Really, Planned Parenthood swears on the lives of their children that the pill is safe. ...Of course their children are all dead. Fuck.


To change subjects in mid-field because of someones color, race or sexual perference is totally out of character and in poor taste.

If you can't address the issues in a respectfull manner, please move to another thread!

Same thing I said to 'bubba: instead of acting pissed off, why don't you address what I actually said?

[beelzebub]

What does that prove? People have been using voodoo for a long time too. Where's the logic in pointing out tat something's been around for many years as if that makes it right?

This was said in response to your claim that "Nobody has ever had the right to kill other human beings because it's their right to do what they want with their body." What I claim is that it has existed and people accepted it and thought that it was an acceptable alternative. You said "Nobody has ever" YOU ARE WRONG!


But the fetus IS human. That's an irrefutable biological fact. Who are we to say that a certain group of human beings are worthy of life but say another group isn't?

We are the ones who determine that. I say that it is not and you say it is. I could care less if it is human tissue or not.


If abortion was merely "removing a fetus" then that would be one thing. It is not. Abortion is not a surgery performed on the mother, it is a surgery performed on the fetus - to kill it. The fact that the fetus is removed is merely a secondary effect of the abortion. The procedure itself directly and deliberately kills the fetus, and that's why it's wrong.

You are too narrow in your definition. I could say that abortion is not necessarily a surgery... it can be a pill.

Your opinion that the surgery is to kill the fetus, not to remove it, is argumentative and only relative to your viewpoint. I can guarantee you that people that have aborted have done so to remove the fetus from their body and for no other reason. However it irrelevant to my argument. My argument is that mother's right to do so; meaning her intent is not important. My argument centralizes on the mothers rights over all decisions concerning her body.


If you're so concerned about the rights of the mother, then stop arguing about why you think abortion is not wrong and start coming up with ways to "remove" the fetus without killing them.

That’s your job. I don’t care about the fetus. I can argue many many points whether you like it or not.


It's not an insult. It is a comparison. If you feel insulted by it, perhaps you're just feeling guilty? Did I strike a nerve? Instead of trying to demean what I said by acting like I said something offensive, you could be explaining exactly what makes segregation against fetuses any damn different from segregation against Jews or blacks.

I am not demeaning what you have said I am merely stating a fact. You are irritating me because you are using underhanded tactics. It is a sign of your weakness and it is inappropriate.

I could easily say that you are interjecting your religious beliefs. Essentially; you would be making a religious state to control others akin to the Taliban and the communists. On and on.


But like I said, the abortion is not performed on the woman. It's performed on the fetus. If you can find some way to remove the fetus without killing them, I would be all for it.

It’s performed on a woman. She is part and parcel. A woman chooses to have the operation. A woman lies down on the table. The fetus gets sucked out. It is just the way it is until another alternative is made available.

One could say the same about sexism but it wouldn't make any more sense.



Those truely guilty of racism and similar prejudices rarely come out and say they judge the group they are prejudiced against. Like you, they all have their "valid" reasons. They are deluding themselves.



I'm not suggesting we value anyone's rights more than anyone else's. This is a matter of /which/ rights are more important, not /whose/ rights. The fetus does not have the right to kill his or her mother either. I mean that would be absurd.[/QUOTE]

[General Septem]

This was said in response to your claim that "Nobody has ever had the right to kill other human beings because it's their right to do what they want with their body." What I claim is that it has existed and people accepted it and thought that it was an acceptable alternative. You said "Nobody has ever" YOU ARE WRONG!

Use that brain of yours. I know how smart you are, so act it. My point was that "choosing what a person wants to do with his or her body" has never been a justification for any other instance of taking human life and I don't see why abortion should be any different.


We are the ones who determine that. I say that it is not and you say it is. I could care less if it is human tissue or not.

We are the ones that determine what? Who lives and who dies? I've got news for you: if you think any human being can decide whether I live or die you're sorely mistaken. But hell, I welcome anyone to try, and wish them luck. That is a choice I did not have when I was in the womb.


You are too narrow in your definition. I could say that abortion is not necessarily a surgery... it can be a pill.

It doesn't really matter.


Your opinion that the surgery is to kill the fetus, not to remove it, is argumentative and only relative to your viewpoint. I can guarantee you that people that have aborted have done so to remove the fetus from their body and for no other reason. However it irrelevant to my argument. My argument is that mother's right to do so; meaning her intent is not important. My argument centralizes on the mothers rights over all decisions concerning her body.

Intent does not play into that assertion. The direct purpose of the operation is to kill the fetus, not just remove it. Intent does not matter because the procedure involves ripping the unborn baby into several pieces. Therefore the fetus's death is a direct and deliberate outcome of this procedure.

It's not just a decision concerning her own body because the body of the fetus is affected as well. You keep talking about humans having the right to choose what happens to their bodies. We have this right regardless of how aware we are of it.


I am not demeaning what you have said I am merely stating a fact. You are irritating me because you are using underhanded tactics. It is a sign of your weakness and it is inappropriate.

It may be your opinion that my "tactics" are "underhanded" but I, too, am merely stating fact. There is somewhat of a parallel and I was pointing that out.


I could easily say that you are interjecting your religious beliefs. Essentially; you would be making a religious state to control others akin to the Taliban and the communists. On and on.

Except I'm not looking to control others. I'm just saying that abortion is an attack upon human life, "and I want you to motherfucking acknowledge it" (haha I love that movie).


It’s performed on a woman. She is part and parcel. A woman chooses to have the operation. A woman lies down on the table. The fetus gets sucked out. It is just the way it is until another alternative is made available.

The woman is not what gets "sucked out" nor does she get torn limb from limb. The fetus does. The abortion doesn't affect the mother much at all, the abscence of the fetus does.

[beelzebub]

Use that brain of yours. I know how smart you are, so act it. My point was that "choosing what a person wants to do with his or her body" has never been a justification for any other instance of taking human life and I don't see why abortion should be any different.

Please take your own advice. I felt your point was very clear. You said that abortion have never been acceptable. I merely proved you wrong. Now you change, fine... but don’t say that I was not using my brain because I cannot read your mind.

I reject your analysis. Prisoners have killed their captor for the same reason.


We are the ones that determine what? Who lives and who dies? I've got news for you: if you think any human being can decide whether I live or die you're sorely mistaken. But hell, I welcome anyone to try, and wish them luck. That is a choice I did not have when I was in the womb.

We decide who has rights and who does not. Young adults are not full fledged citizens because they do not have all the rights as an adult. Society can also determine who lives and who dies. We do so all the time with capital punishment.


Intent does not play into that assertion. The direct purpose of the operation is to kill the fetus, not just remove it. Intent does not matter because the procedure involves ripping the unborn baby into several pieces. Therefore the fetus's death is a direct and deliberate outcome of this procedure.

I believe that intent does play into that assertion whether you see it or not.


It may be your opinion that my "tactics" are "underhanded" but I, too, am merely stating fact. There is somewhat of a parallel and I was pointing that out.

I don’t see the parallel and I do not appreciate that allusion. I don’t see it as fact. It has nothing to do with abortion because it involves separate, independent people. Abortion involves the fetus inside the mother. That’s it. I would really prefer not debate this point further.


Except I'm not looking to control others. I'm just saying that abortion is an attack upon human life, "and I want you to motherfucking acknowledge it" (haha I love that movie).

"Attack" is too strong. Abortion kills living human tissue - yes, that's much better. "You can't handle the truth!" - (I love that one)


The woman is not what gets "sucked out" nor does she get torn limb from limb. The fetus does. The abortion doesn't affect the mother much at all, the absence of the fetus does.

I don’t get that last line. Anyway..... Uh.... so?

[General Septem]

Please take your own advice. I felt your point was very clear. You said that abortion have never been acceptable. I merely proved you wrong. Now you change, fine... but don’t say that I was not using my brain because I cannot read your mind.

If you understood my point so clearly you would not have gotten the impression I thought abortion has "never been acceptable" in the eyes of society. I am not changing anything, I am further clarifying.


I reject your analysis. Prisoners have killed their captor for the same reason.

That's different - the captor, assuming he has no just reason to imprison the prisoner, falls under the "unjust assailant" category, as would someone, for example, trying to mug you on the street. Furthermore, in such cases where this is morally acceptable, the prisoner had no choice but to kill his captor or remain in captivity indefinitely. If the prisoner can easily sneak out but chooses to kill his captor anyway, his actions are no longer just.


We decide who has rights and who does not. Young adults are not full fledged citizens because they do not have all the rights as an adult. Society can also determine who lives and who dies. We do so all the time with capital punishment.

The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable human rights - unlike the right to vote, they cannot be given nor taken away. Capital punishment is not moral unless it is the only way to keep society safe, which with our maximum security prisons it never is.


I believe that intent does play into that assertion whether you see it or not.

Intent does not change the nature of the act itself.


I don’t see the parallel

That is why I pointed it out. The purpose of debating is to be introduced to new conclusions that one would not normally sraw otherwise.


and I do not appreciate that allusion. I don’t see it as fact. It has nothing to do with abortion because it involves separate, independent people. Abortion involves the fetus inside the mother. That’s it. I would really prefer not debate this point further.

And that's exactly what I'm saying, like other prejudiced groups you have your standards by which you segregate humans into separate categories. You see one category as opressing the other category and not deserving of life. Say what you will but it looks all-too-familiar to me.

I'm sorry if you can't handle it. Maybe you should really think about it, because it sounds to me like you're getting awfully defensive. I'm not here to judge. I'm here to make you think.


"Attack" is too strong. Abortion kills living human tissue - yes, that's much better. "You can't handle the truth!" - (I love that one)

Any act of murder "kills living human tissue". It's the fact that the "human tissue" constitutes an entire human body, and that an entire human body is consequently killed in the process that makes it a little more than *just* killing living human tissue.

But if we're going to use euphamisms, I prefer the term "meatbag" myself. :D


I don’t get that last line. Anyway..... Uh.... so?

My point is that the primary effect abortion has on the mother is an indirect effect of the abortion, not a direct effect. The pimary direct effect of the abortion is the death of the fetus. It is the abscence of the fetus that primarily affects the mother, not the abortion itself. Case in point, a girl who isn't pregnant cannot get an abortion, and if she could it certainly would not have any effect on her.

[REPTILE]

You guys need to understand that a human is a human is a human. I know what Ape or Beelzebub or Who will say something like "a fetus is a fetus is a fetus" in response, well a fetus is Human. Its unaware that it will be killed, so will someone if I decided to kill them "effeciently" (catch my drift). Just because it's unaware doesn't give us a greenlight to go ahead and kill it. Give it away if you cant keep it for Fuck sake. You people have no regard for human life. Your all alive right? So Fuck everyone else, me myself and I. Your not the ones facing certain death, I dont give a shit its fucking wrong, disguisting, and evil. Beelzebub, you seem like a really nice guy. You've helped out in missionaries, I would expect you of all people to see the evil in such acts.

CHOICE is VITAL
LIFE is ESSENTIAL

I want a world with choices available, but not choices that could end the life of countless innocents. Whats the next step after abortion, what other forms of legal murder can we look foward to?

[who897]

Because what you said, is a pansies point of view. It's retarded, dee da dee. I've seen invertebre with thicker spines then yours. Your living in a lolly pop world were everything is fair, and everything is there to please you. Sorry bub, it aint. If the world was fair, that would be communisim.....

Also, someone said that if we terminate a pregnancy we might be terminating the next Einstein.....I say, the only thing we are terminating is the next Hitler. Are you willing to take that chance?

[who897]

Male spunk and a womans egg. Not murder.

Actually one of the cruelest things you could do is bring the damn thing to term. Have to deal with people that are trying to prevent progress.

The nice thing about abortion is that it is an effective, efficiant, and realitively safe proceedure. Which to me means, use it more often.

If you refuse to have an abortion, and give your kid up for adoption, let me know where you live, so I can beat the living shit outta you for not having an abortion. By your actions, you have put it in a government/state owned establishment, that I have to pay for outta my taxes. Were as an abortion would be a small upfront cost from yourself, and maybe your partner, and that would be the end of it.

[Dakota]

Hi Bel,
I must admit I haven't read all of the current posts so forgive me if I'm repeating things. I just wanted to answer to your last one directed to me and also write down some thoughts I had ...


[QUOTE=beelzebub]
I totally disagree with your stance. You are nothing like the baby that you were. There have been tremendous physiological and developmental changed that have made you into the person that you are. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Yeah - we're gonna have to disagree then. Although there have been changes, even tremendous changes, I am still essentially the same. And if you wanted to turn those changes into a reason for NOT being the same person - then that can be said for many stages of my life. I am physiologically and developmentally not the same that I was as a newborn, or toddler or teenager. I'm still essentially the same person though. And just because I was different physiologically and developmentally at any of my previous stages, it does not mean that I didn't have the right to live at any of them including when I was a fetus.
__________________________________________________ ______

[QUOTE=beelzebub] I have already answered this question: One is inside the womb and the other isn't. I have also given you a website that identifies main phases with descriptions of EACH of the major differences between phase and the other. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Yes, I understand the fetus is inside the womb and the newborn isn't anymore. And yes a fetus at 13 weeks pregnant is in a different phase as newborn at 40 weeks. What I'm trying to get an anser for is something different and I have a feeling I'm not asking it right or making my point clear. So let me try again.

Let's say someone is giving birth at 30 weeks pregnant (our old neighbour's daughter-in-law did last year) the fetus is at the 30 week stage - just for kicks let's say she gave birth at 3:00pm. At 2:55pm the little girl was still a fetus, still inside of her. At 3:00pm the little girl was out and was a newborn baby. The ONLY difference of the baby at 3:00pm to the fetus at 2:55pm was that the 3:00pm baby was using it's lungs and not fed by the umbilical cord anymore. Other than that they were in the same phase, same stage of development and even your website can't help with that.

My question is, why do you think it's morally right to kill the fetus at 2:55pm, but morally wrong to kill the baby at 3:01pm?

You actually answered that in another post. I don't have it right here, but if you ask me to, I will find it again. You said that the fetus does not have any rights and the he/she is given his/her rights at birth including the right to life.
Well, if that is how you look at it, you must be consistent and consequent in thought. I gave birth to Emma at 40 weeks pregnant at 4:29pm on April the 8th. According to your logic, I could have changed my mind about the whole idea of being a mom and could have decided at 4:20pm that instead of giving birth I rather have her brains sucked out and thrown her into a garbage can. How was she different at 4:20pm from the baby that I ended up looking at at 4:29pm. How was SHE different other than - she was using her lungs?

With the exception of who897 - whom I really don't take seriously, because he's either very disturbed or just here to stir up dirt and provoke reactions - I think we can all agree that it's wrong to kill a newborn. Even the law agrees to that. Again - what was so different about her at 4:20 compared to 4:29??Why should she not have had the right to live at that point already?

__________________________________________________ ____

[QUOTE=beelzebub] I am gay and my partner can’t get pregnant. Our son is adopted. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Good for you guys!! Too bad though you couldn't follow the pregnancy.
__________________________________________________ _________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] As I have stated before. It is human, human tissue. I don’t see it as better than any other tissue or any more important. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

There are clearly some things that you're not taking into consideration. I really don't know how you can believe that a fetus or even a just newly fertilized human egg is no different from any other human tissue. IT COULDN'T BE MORE DIFFERENT! IT HAS THE ABILITY TO GROW INTO A WHOLE NEW PERSON!!!! There is absolutely NO other human tissue that can do that! It IS better and it IS more important because it keeps our species alive.

That's why I keep saying - don't confuse a fetus with something like an appendix or a tumor, or anything like that. It's NOT. Yes - in the very beginning it's just cells splitting (again not sure if that's the right term, it's what it translates to from my language). However - it's cells who have their very own DNA. It's cells who have an incomprehensible amount of data in them - much more complex than other human tissue - data that will grow those cells into a grown perons one day - if granted the right to do so. And after about 5 weeks of those cells/that tissue splitting and multiplying, it'll have it's own heart that is beating. No other human tissue has it's own heartbeat! No other human tissue can turn into a grown person. That's why it IS different and that's why it IS WORTH protecting.
__________________________________________________ ________

Now here's something else I wanted to say. You keep insisting that making abortion illegal is infringing on the pregnant woman's rights to choose. While I'm not sure that "infringe" is the right word here, let's just use it.

Infringing on our personal choices and preferences and freedom to choose is what legislation does! Every piece of legislation "infringes" on my freedom of choice to do otherwise.

Forcing me to pay taxes is infringing on my right to keep my hard earned money. Forcing me to stay within a certain speed limit, is taking away my choice to go faster. Not letting me drink and drive is taking away my freedom to have a good time and drive home afterwards.

And yes - while most of these laws are in place because otherwise my choices may affect others negatively - there are also laws that are just about me, like the seatbelt law. I have to wear my seatbelt. What's up with that? If I don't - it's just me who gets hurt - yet enough "tyrants" out there agreed that it shouldn't be my choice, and voted to take away my personal freedom to choose whether or not I want to wear a seatbelt.

Same with illegal drugs. Why shouldn't I be allowed to shoot heroin? Who cares? It's me that I'm hurting? Yet legislation infringes upon my right to posses and use heroin. Shouldn't I be allowed to do to my body whatever I want? And if it's shooting dope, it's shooting dope?

Yes, asking for abortion to be illegal is taking away the choice to not give birth to the baby. It's not forcing the woman to be a mother - as commonly misunderstood - it just forces her not to kill that new life and carry it for 9 months.

That's what legislation does - it infringes on our rights to choose differently!!!
For the sake of presering a new life, I feel the lesser evil is to infringe upon a woman's choice to kill the new life. I am not asking her to care for it forever. All I'm asking is for her to carry it to term, so that it can continue to live.

That's only 9 months out of her life ...

:D Me on the other hand - I will NEVER be allowed to drive as fast as I want. The speed limit will infringe upon my choice to do that forever ... bad joke, probably ... But the speed limits in this country are more than lame ...

[Dakota]

What is your first language?


It's German. I'm from Germany :)

[Ape-Shit]

My Daughter was born in Nuernberg.

Do the ladies still have hairy legs and arm pits? Seems that I recall, they drank a lot of Beer too!

[beelzebub]

If you understood my point so clearly you would not have gotten the impression I thought abortion has "never been acceptable" in the eyes of society. I am not changing anything, I am further clarifying.

I was talking about the double meaning of your point. You "further clarified" by directing in a different perspective. This indicates you need to elaborate better. For example I needed to elaborate better when I (purposefully) said "I understand your point clearly."


That's different - the captor, assuming he has no just reason to imprison the prisoner, falls under the "unjust assailant" category, as would someone, for example, trying to mug you on the street. Furthermore, in such cases where this is morally acceptable, the prisoner had no choice but to kill his captor or remain in captivity indefinitely. If the prisoner can easily sneak out but chooses to kill his captor anyway, his actions are no longer just.

How convenient that you choose to use "that’s different" when all along I have been saying similar postings and you have insisted that the two concepts are the same. I grow tired of this.....


The right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness are inalienable human rights - unlike the right to vote, they cannot be given nor taken away. Capital punishment is not moral unless it is the only way to keep society safe, which with our maximum security prisons it never is.

The problem with your assumption (based on the constitution - thanks to the USA) is that the words you used were directed towards individuals not symbiants.


Intent does not change the nature of the act itself.

Look - this whole line was started after I said "Your opinion that the surgery is to kill the fetus, not to remove it, is argumentative and only relative to your viewpoint. I can guarantee you that people that have aborted have done so to remove the fetus from their body and for no other reason."

I am adressing the statement that surgery is to kill the fetus. The surgery is to remove it from the body, to stop the pregnancy, to change the live of the individual that bears the fetus. You want to wash all of those things away with the "kill the fetus line". You focus only on that, while I say there is more to the story.


That is why I pointed it out. The purpose of debating is to be introduced to new conclusions that one would not normally stray otherwise.

True, but that line of argument is not correlated to mine and it is offensive to me. I do not have to debate this if I choose not to. I would hope that you would respect that and move on to the VOLUMES of other topics.

It would seem that you insist. That is fine but just to let you know... I won’t be nice and pleasant, because I see it as offensive BECAUSE I DO NOT SEE ANY SIMILARITY. I see this as just another tactic to demean my viewpoint by eluding it to racism.


But it looks all-too-familiar to me.

Chalk it up to lack of experience.


My point is that the primary effect abortion has on the mother is an indirect effect of the abortion, not a direct effect. The primary direct effect of the abortion is the death of the fetus. It is the absence of the fetus that primarily affects the mother, not the abortion itself. Case in point, a girl who isn't pregnant cannot get an abortion, and if she could it certainly would not have any effect on her.

I mostly agree with that viewpoint. I feel it is has a direct affect on the mother because the all of tissue was created by the mother and she is the one that causes its growth & development. Let me clarify: If you took a zygote and put into an isotonic solution it would neither grow nor develop without nutrients and the correct environment. It would live for a little while but it would die within days. If a zygote is implanted into the mother it will grow and develop as observed everywhere. Where do the molecules that build all the tissues come from? The mother! It is true that the fetus assembles them according to its plan BUT ALL OF THE BUILDING BLOCKS ARE GIVEN BY THE MOTHER!

[General Septem]

How convenient that you choose to use "that’s different" when all along I have been saying similar postings and you have insisted that the two concepts are the same. I grow tired of this.....

Can you further elaborate?


The problem with your assumption (based on the constitution - thanks to the USA) is that the words you used were directed towards individuals not symbiants.

No, they were directed toward human beings - hence the term "inalienable HUMAN rights". I don't recall seeing anything on "individual".


I am adressing the statement that surgery is to kill the fetus. The surgery is to remove it from the body, to stop the pregnancy, to change the live of the individual that bears the fetus. You want to wash all of those things away with the "kill the fetus line". You focus only on that, while I say there is more to the story.

That may be the /purpose/ of abortion in some cases, but I am referring to the procedure itself. It is done any number of ways, all of which involve destroying the fetus in one way or another. The DIRECT result of this action is that the fetus dies.


True, but that line of argument is not correlated to mine and it is offensive to me. I do not have to debate this if I choose not to. I would hope that you would respect that and move on to the VOLUMES of other topics.

It would seem that you insist. That is fine but just to let you know... I won’t be nice and pleasant, because I see it as offensive BECAUSE I DO NOT SEE ANY SIMILARITY. I see this as just another tactic to demean my viewpoint by eluding it to racism.

I see your comment as offensive. Well, I could see it that way anyway. I could accuse you of lowering me to the level of some petty troll who only means to insult you. But that would be beneath me.

I say again, it sounds to me like you are rather sensitive on this issue, and perhaps thinking about it some more can do you well. I know your response because it's happened to me as well. I've been accused of being someone I don't want to be, and my initial reaction was to block out what they said. But after thinking about it, they did have a bit of a point. They were wrong about me being someone I didn't like but they were right, to a point, about the nature of my thoughts and actions. I made a change, albeit a small one, and I felt better about myself for it.


I mostly agree with that viewpoint. I feel it is has a direct affect on the mother because the all of tissue was created by the mother and she is the one that causes its growth & development. Let me clarify: If you took a zygote and put into an isotonic solution it would neither grow nor develop without nutrients and the correct environment. It would live for a little while but it would die within days. If a zygote is implanted into the mother it will grow and develop as observed everywhere. Where do the molecules that build all the tissues come from? The mother! It is true that the fetus assembles them according to its plan BUT ALL OF THE BUILDING BLOCKS ARE GIVEN BY THE MOTHER!

...And this matters how?

[who897]

Just because I don't like new borns, or kids, I don't say kill them. I do think that you should be able to termnate your pregnacy. Now, I'm not quite sure how long it takes women to find out that there is something wrong with them. But they should be given enough time after they find out to weigh their options, set any appointments, have as much info, and as many discussions as possible to determine if they wish to terminate their pregnancy. Now as a compromise I would say somewhere in the park of 2 months after finding out.....after that you prolifers can have the damn thing.

10 minutes of pleasure should not cause a life time of pain.

The emotional truama forced apon someone who does not want to have children, but is being forced to is rather unfair. Where as you say the fetus will go through the truama of being killed it is quite fast and painless, the mother will have to go through the rest of their life looking at the damn thing as a reminder, of one mistake. You would punish women. Why not just stop womens suffarage altogether then.

[General Septem]

10 minutes of pleasure should not cause a life time of pain.

But a moment or so of bad judgment often does. There aren't many people with missing limbs that had planned to lose them. They went and did something stupid and came up a finger short. The only difference is this particular consequence can be "dealt with" by murdering someone.

A consequence of a few minutes' bad judgment should not lead to the death of someone who'd not done anything.


The emotional truama forced apon someone who does not want to have children, but is being forced to is rather unfair.

So put the damn thing up for adoption.

[who897]

She would still have to have the damn thing though. (Caplocks on, in a stern voice)


Yep, see, they lose arms, they lose fingers, so I say lose the fetus.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=Dakota]Hi Bel, I must admit I haven't read all of the current posts so forgive me if I'm repeating things. I just wanted to answer to your last one directed to me and also write down some thoughts I had ...

Hi Dakota!


[QUOTE=beelzebub] I totally disagree with your stance. You are nothing like the baby that you were. There have been tremendous physiological and developmental changed that have made you into the person that you are. [QUOTE=beelzebub]
Yeah - we're gonna have to disagree then. Although there have been changes, even tremendous changes, I am still essentially the same. And if you wanted to turn those changes into a reason for NOT being the same person - then that can be said for many stages of my life. I am physiologically and developmentally not the same that I was as a newborn, or toddler or teenager. I'm still essentially the same person though. And just because I was different physiologically and developmentally at any of my previous stages, it does not mean that I didn't have the right to live at any of them including when I was a fetus.

Let me help you: It is true that you are of the same genetic material. However; the you that I refer to is he you that cannot be seen and the you that can be seen. I guarentee, that it would not be easy for others to identify you with your baby picture if in a pot of 10 other similar individuals. However; They would immediatly identify you with a picture taken 1 minute ago. I further state that if I were to introduce your younger self to a group of blind interviewers and then introduce you they would not be able to distinguis you in a pot of 10 other individuals.


__________________________________________________ ______

Let's say someone is giving birth at 30 weeks pregnant (our old neighbour's daughter-in-law did last year) the fetus is at the 30 week stage - just for kicks let's say she gave birth at 3:00pm. At 2:55pm the little girl was still a fetus, still inside of her.

Correction...... not a fetus anymore! But back to the story:

At 3:00pm the little girl was out and was a newborn baby. The ONLY difference of the baby at 3:00pm to the fetus at 2:55pm was that the 3:00pm baby was using it's lungs and not fed by the umbilical cord anymore. Other than that they were in the same phase, same stage of development and even your website can't help with that.

Your point I hope is that the mother should not be allowed to terminate the pregnancy. I would agree with that extreme of an example.

Realize that almost 100% of the late term abortions are performed because of the mothers health or problems with the fetus. Check this story out:

http://www.barryyeoman.com/articles/gina.html

opps I have to go... My son is tuggin at my apron... gotta bake some cookies. I will answer the rest lateron.

[General Septem]

She would still have to have the damn thing though. (Caplocks on, in a stern voice)


Yep, see, they lose arms, they lose fingers, so I say lose the fetus.

You know what I think? I think you're a damn troll. We'll see how long you last once I stop responding to your bullshit.

[who897]

You know what I think? I think you're a damn troll. We'll see how long you last once I stop responding to your bullshit.


I really don't care what you think. Good, cuz then I win. This trial of attrition is over, I am the victor, to the victor go the spoiles I am right. You now ceed to me that abortion is infact "A" OK.

[Dakota]

opps I have to go... My son is tuggin at my apron... gotta bake some cookies. I will answer the rest lateron.

:) - how cute :)
How old is your son?
And more importantly ;) - how did the cookies turn out??

[REPTILE]

* Who897 - "If you refuse to have an abortion, and give your kid up for adoption, let me know where you live, so I can beat the living shit outta you for not having an abortion."

So now your forcing people to have abortions? Why do we even bother arguing with you? You must be pretty stupid not to see the honor in giving the gift of life. If you were on Death Row and they found out you were innocent last minute, you'd get on your knees and be thankfull you got to live. Infants/newborns/unborns/ whatever are called "innocence" for a reason, because they're INNOCENT.

* Who897 - "By your actions, you have put it in a government/state owned establishment, that I have to pay for outta my taxes. Were as an abortion would be a small upfront cost from yourself, and maybe your partner, and that would be the end of it."

The Government wastes money on all kinds of weapons developement, WMD's, all kinds of wierd fucking experiments on people that are USELESS and harmful, not to mention they steal hard earned money ALL THE TIME (income taxes, fees for everthing, etc...)). About a week ago my stepdad recieved a letter from the IRS saying he owed almost 5,000 bucks. After 2 hours on the phone with these thieves they finally admitted they had made a mistake and he only owed like $400.

If you wanna complain about were your moneys going to don't whine like a sissy about institutions for these kids, whine about all the OTHER shit that are money goes toward. If the government wasn't a band of bald, ugly, old fart thieves and took more or less what they need, shit woulnd't be so bad.

[beelzebub]

:) - how cute :)
How old is your son?
And more importantly ;) - how did the cookies turn out??


He is 2 years old this 22nd ! I love him!

Cookeis?! Oh child! I cook better than most. The cookies were perfect - thanks for asking dalin,...

[Dakota]

He is 2 months old this 22nd ! I love him!

Cookeis?! Oh child! I cook better than most. The cookies were perfect - thanks for asking dalin,...

2 months old? - I hope the cookies weren't for him then :)

Emma was very colicky right around 2 months old. We had a very hard couple of weeks right around then. How are you guys doing?

[who897]

* So now your forcing people to have abortions? Why do we even bother arguing with you? You must be pretty stupid not to see the honor in giving the gift of life. If you were on Death Row and they found out you were innocent last minute, you'd get on your knees and be thankfull you got to live. Infants/newborns/unborns/ whatever are called "innocence" for a reason, because they're INNOCENT.


There are always casulties in war.

*[Quote]The Government wastes money on all kinds of weapons developement, WMD's, all kinds of wierd fucking experiments on people that are USELESS and harmful, not to mention they steal hard earned money ALL THE TIME (income taxes, fees for everthing, etc...)). About a week ago my stepdad recieved a letter from the IRS saying he owed almost 5,000 bucks. After 2 hours on the phone with these thieves they finally admitted they had made a mistake and he only owed like $400.

The United States government no longer creates WMD. What they do create is small amounts of Chemical and Biological agents for testing equipment used by governement agencies to ensure that they will work in detecting these agents. The nukes we do have are what were left over from the nuclear disarmerment pack. Weird and harmful experements on people?!?!?! I smell a conspirecy theoriest. There are medicines that could treat so many diseases yet the FDA refuses to administer a human trial for just that reason, it may be harmful to humans. Name one governement in the world that is as strong as ours that does not collect taxes of any kind? There are none, governements would no longer exist if taxes were not levied. How would you pay the soldiers and sailors? How would you pay for any other project the federal/state/local governments pay for with out taxes. No one is saying the governemnt is infailable, but if they were in fact theives they would have taken something from your dad that was worth the 5000, and wouldn't have even bothered to talk to him on the phone.


If you wanna complain about were your moneys going to don't whine like a sissy about institutions for these kids, whine about all the OTHER shit that are money goes toward. If the government wasn't a band of bald, ugly, old fart thieves and took more or less what they need, shit woulnd't be so bad.



No, shit wouldn't be so bad if we could just get these damn religious people to shut the hell up, along with all the prolifers, and people against capital punishment. As for whining like a sissy, that statement about your dad being taking advantage of by the governement, that was whining, and not admitting that the government made a mistake and was willing to correct their err, that was being a sissy.

[ajk]

I hope you realize that you are contradicting your own life by being pro abortion. Put yourself back in that womb for a second, how would you feel if your mom had decided to abort you? Think about that.

[who897]

I hope you realize that you are contradicting your own life by being pro abortion. Put yourself back in that womb for a second, how would you feel if your mom had decided to abort you? Think about that.


Man I can barely remeber when I was 5 let alone back then. So it really woudn't have mattered to me that much anyways if she did. When you are in the womb as a fetus, you are not human, you are a clump of cells, I've said it a million times and I'll say it a million more if I have to. There is no reason why abortion should not be legal. It's pro choice, and if she wanted to have an abortion, so be it. It would have been her choice.

[ajk]

You completely missed my point. Obviously you won't know or understand then, but just think about it though. I found out a while back that my mom wanted to abort me (before my dad changed her mind), and the idea that I might not have existed kinda scares me to be honest. You almost feel unwanted thinking about that.

As far as being just a clump of cells, I couldn't disagree more. That fetus in the womb, is alive just as much as we are. Therefore it deserves just as much a chance at life as anyone else. Don't forget it can feel pain too, so the baby isn't is totally oblivious to the whole thing.

Also, consider the saying that a society is only as strong as it's weakest members. Well here we are killing infant children (aka the weakest members), so how strong are we really?

[who897]

You completely missed my point. Obviously you won't know or understand then, but just think about it though. I found out a while back that my mom wanted to abort me (before my dad changed her mind), and the idea that I might not have existed kinda scares me to be honest. You almost feel unwanted thinking about that.

As far as being just a clump of cells, I couldn't disagree more. That fetus in the womb, is alive just as much as we are. Therefore it deserves just as much a chance at life as anyone else. Don't forget it can feel pain too, so the baby isn't is totally oblivious to the whole thing.

Also, consider the saying that a society is only as strong as it's weakest members. Well here we are killing infant children (aka the weakest members), so how strong are we really?

Can't go through life being scared there bub. Yeah, I read your other thread, don't really see a point to it though. To an extent you were unwanted, and if that scares you, just think there are plenty of things that you could be unwanted for even now. Oops, I might be scaring you with that.

The fetus isn't as much alive as I am. I am not absolutly reliant on some other host. (Except mother earth of course) Philosophies bore me, along with what if's. Cuz you don't know for a fact it feels pain, you ever punch one and ask it how it feels? If it did feel, wouldn't it like it when the host took some Coke?

We are not killing infant children. We are terminating pregnancies. If you call a fetus our weakest link then, by removing our weakest link we only make the chain stronger by weeding out the weak and timid. In effect something stronger is now it's weakest member.

Score!

[ajk]

The fetus isn't as much alive as I am. I am not absolutly reliant on some other host.

By your logic then it's ok to kill a person who is bedridden right, since he or she is relying on others to take care of them.



We are not killing infant children. We are terminating pregnancies. If you call a fetus our weakest link then, by removing our weakest link we only make the chain stronger by weeding out the weak and timid. In effect something stronger is now it's weakest member.


No we're making our chain that much weaker. If we can be justified in killing a human being in the womb, then who's to say going out on the street and shooting someone is ok too?

We're going against the Constitution too. What does it say? It says we have a right to LIFE, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. Through abortion you're taking away the baby's right to life.

[who897]

I think if a bedridden person wants to die, then we should accomidate them, as long as what ever they have is terminal.

Apparently you didn't understand what you said about a chain being only as strong as it's weakest link. That's ok, can't expect everyone to know what they are talkin bout.

Once again, I do not believe it is a human being, it is a fetus, you are not a human being until you are born, sorta a prerequisite. No one said going out and shooting someone on the street is ok, this is about abortion bub.
Once again the constitution does not protect the fetus. A baby btw has to be born to be a baby. That is why we have the term fetus and embryo and stuff like that. So shhhhhhh.

[General Septem]

Once again, I do not believe it is a human being, it is a fetus, you are not a human being until you are born, sorta a prerequisite.

Is this theory supported by scientific analasis of a fetus's DNA or is it just something you came up with so you don't have to be bothered?

[ajk]

I think if a bedridden person wants to die, then we should accomidate them, as long as what ever they have is terminal.
That doesn't answer my question. To put it simpler, you're saying that it's ok to kill our elderly, because they are dependant on their kids for a lot of things.


Once again, I do not believe it is a human being, it is a fetus, you are not a human being until you are born, sorta a prerequisite.

So then even though it's growing, living, and breathing in that womb, it's still not human huh? Then tell me just what is it? It has ears to hear things around them no? It has fingers and toes. It has everything a human being has. Granted not all of it comes at once, but it doesn't change the fact that it's still a human being. From the point of conception it's growing in that womb.


No one said going out and shooting someone on the street is ok, this is about abortion bub.

And once again you completely missed my point. The point I was trying to make is that abortion and shooting and killing someone on the street, are the same thing in essence. They're both murder. So in effect by supporting abortion you're supporting killing someone on the street as well. Same idea in both cases.



Once again the constitution does not protect the fetus. A baby btw has to be born to be a baby. That is why we have the term fetus and embryo and stuff like that. So shhhhhhh.

Is that so? Well consider this, in latin the word fetus means "filled with young, pregnant, breeding, with young" sounds like there's something living in there to me. Why should it not have a right to life?

[beelzebub]

2 months old? - I hope the cookies weren't for him then :)

Emma was very colicky right around 2 months old. We had a very hard couple of weeks right around then. How are you guys doing?

I am silly... I wrote 2 months, its 2 years! Jeeza, I need to lay off the martinis!

[beelzebub]

Is this theory supported by scientific analasis of a fetus's DNA or is it just something you came up with so you don't have to be bothered?

GS - Just because it has human DNA does not mean that everyone has to consider it a human being. Their definition can be based on other priorities or factors.

[General Septem]

GS - Just because it has human DNA does not mean that everyone has to consider it a human being. Their definition can be based on other priorities or factors.

If you allow that, everyone will have their own idea of what a human being is.

[ajk]

That's exactly what we have GM. And therein lies the problem. Everything is an opinion. There are no facts anymore.

[who897]

Fact Septem said he wasn't gonna pay attention to any of my post, he did, but that is off topic.

What is your question though, cuz apparently you are very inquisitive, and I have an answer to everything, so let her rip, if not your wasting my time there young pup.

Hey, (I wanna say dumbshit, but I'm not gonna but I really wanna) bub, the freaking thing aint breathing, you sorta need to be out in the air to breathe. Nope it aint human yet. It don't have ears it dont have fingers it dont have a penis it don't have a vagina, it don't have feet it dont have legs it don't have arms etc etc etc until they are developed. So when it's about 4 fucking cells it don't have any of that shit.

No killing a full grown adult on the street IS wrong. That is a different topic though, that would be under Landfill under a thread called murder.

Look I can google shit too.
fetus (1) -a -um (1) [pregnant; fruitful , fertile; teeming with, full of]. (2) [that has brought forth, newly delivered].

Because it doesn't have rights. It is under the full and unconditional control of the women bearing it. If the bitch don't want it then she should have to be forced to have it. Why is that such a hard concept to understand, why can't it be black and white, wait it is, but yall wanna bring in this damn gray area that has no purpose here.

To be honest with you, I could care less if anyone is born, once you are born, and only after, I will defend your freedoms, until then you are not worth the jizz stain on yer ma ma's back



I've been drinking, I apoligize for the vulgarities, insert nice words, but the jist must remain.

[who897]

Concidering if you are only 1% off in DNA you could be a dolphin.

[ajk]

No killing a full grown adult on the street IS wrong. That is a different topic though, that would be under Landfill under a thread called murder.


Then why is killing a baby ok? I don't understand it. It's a double standard.


Because it doesn't have rights. It is under the full and unconditional control of the women bearing it. If the bitch don't want it then she should have to be forced to have it. Why is that such a hard concept to understand, why can't it be black and white, wait it is, but yall wanna bring in this damn gray area that has no purpose here.

Oh but it does, once that woman is pregnant she's no longer responsible for just herself, but a another life as well. And regardless of whether it has fully grown or not, it IS a life right from the moment of conception. You may not like it, but those are the facts.

As for if she doesn't want it? First off too bad, if she didn't want to get pregnant she shouldnt have had sex (unless you get raped which is a whole other thing). Second why can't you just put it up for adoption? There are plenty of people out there who would love to have a kid but can't by natural means. I'm sure one of them would be more then happy to take the kid in.

That's another thing I don't get, some people would do anything to have a child, but can't. Yet others that can, are ungrateful and throw the baby away. Doesn't make sense.



To be honest with you, I could care less if anyone is born, once you are born, and only after, I will defend your freedoms, until then you are not worth the jizz stain on yer ma ma's back

Well then I guess you wouldn't care if you didn't exist either right?


Hey, (I wanna say dumbshit, but I'm not gonna but I really wanna) bub, the freaking thing aint breathing, you sorta need to be out in the air to breathe. Nope it aint human yet. It don't have ears it dont have fingers it dont have a penis it don't have a vagina, it don't have feet it dont have legs it don't have arms etc etc etc until they are developed. So when it's about 4 fucking cells it don't have any of that shit.

Maybe not, but that doesn't matter. It's still growing, so therefore it is living.

[who897]

It's not a baby, it is a fetus. Aborting a pregenancy is not wrong, that's like saying a bitch having a period is wrong or a miscarage for that matter. Sperm are half a human DNA, so is any form of ejaculation wrong?

Why would rape be any different? That would be a double standard, to you it would still be a life, why not just make her bring the pregnancy to term anyways and give it to the guy who raped her, because it doesn't make sense, if you don't want it you shouldn't have to have it.

Nope, I was born, so there for I like my existance. If I wasn't born it wouldn't have concerned me.

So a cancer is growing, there for it is living should we not try to kill it? A virius is growing, there for it is living shoul we not try and kill it?

[ajk]

It's not a baby, it is a fetus. Aborting a pregenancy is not wrong, that's like saying a bitch having a period is wrong or a miscarage for that matter. Sperm are half a human DNA, so is any form of ejaculation wrong?

No those things are different. A period is a natural thing, abortion is not. A miscarriage is something that cannot be helped. If it happens, it happens. Abortion can be helped.


Why would rape be any different? That would be a double standard, to you it would still be a life, why not just make her bring the pregnancy to term anyways and give it to the guy who raped her, because it doesn't make sense, if you don't want it you shouldn't have to have it.

Why have it? Because it isn't the fault of the baby that his or her mom got raped. Why should it be punished for something it didn't do? Regardless of how it got there, it deserves a chance at life just as much as anyone else does.



So a cancer is growing, there for it is living should we not try to kill it? A virius is growing, there for it is living shoul we not try and kill it?

Comparing a baby to a cancer is ridiculous. Two completely different things. A cancer IS a virus. Since when is a baby a virus?

[who897]

No those things are different. A period is a natural thing, abortion is not. A miscarriage is something that cannot be helped. If it happens, it happens. Abortion can be helped.

Some miscarrages can be with proper medicine. I will help abortion when ever I can.

Why have it? Because it isn't the fault of the baby that his or her mom got raped. Why should it be punished for something it didn't do? Regardless of how it got there, it deserves a chance at life just as much as anyone else does.

Wow, the first person to say rape victims should bring the pregnancy to term, good job bub.


Comparing a baby to a cancer is ridiculous. Two completely different things. A cancer IS a virus. Since when is a baby a virus?

Wow, I am completely dumbfounded on that one. A cancer is a virus. How bout some viruses cause cancer.
It's only ridiculous to you, see to me a "FETUS" is a cancer. It is also a virus.
The only way it is sustained is by being parasidic to the host. When the host dies the virus and the cancer die with it. Simple.


Someone go get a shovel someone is digging themselves a mighty fine hole.

[ajk]

No I think it's the opposite here.

As far as helping abortion, what I meant was it can be helped by not doing it. A miscarriage is a different matter. In that case if it dies, then it dies.

Yes I do think rape victims should bring the pregency to term. Someone here before stated that having the abortion begets violence with violence. I couldn't agree more. Furthermore, if more rape victims would have the kid, maybe guys would think twice before raping someone.

A "Fetus" is cancer? Wow, now I'm the one dumbfounded. How can something that is growing in the mother's womb, a tiny life, be a cancer?

[sanford]

See to me a "FETUS" is a cancer. It is also a virus.

A fetus is a cancer? Doesn't that make you a cancer then? (Think - grown up fetus lol) :o

[General Septem]

Fact Septem said he wasn't gonna pay attention to any of my post, he did, but that is off topic.

I should have clarified, I'll reply if I feel you aren't just trolling.


Hey, (I wanna say dumbshit, but I'm not gonna but I really wanna) bub, the freaking thing aint breathing, you sorta need to be out in the air to breathe. Nope it aint human yet. It don't have ears it dont have fingers it dont have a penis it don't have a vagina, it don't have feet it dont have legs it don't have arms etc etc etc until they are developed. So when it's about 4 fucking cells it don't have any of that shit.

Pretty much everything you mentioned develops very quickly, within weeks. No abortions are ever performed when a baby is only four cells, not that it would matter anyway. I could troll and say you haven't got a penis or a vagina either, but going by what you've said in other posts, I'm going to extrapolate and say that you have a penis but you were born with it on your shoulders. :D

Oh, and girls don't have breasts either until many years after their birth. Does that make her not human yet? No, it makes her not fully developed yet.


Look I can google shit too.
fetus (1) -a -um (1) [pregnant; fruitful , fertile; teeming with, full of]. (2) [that has brought forth, newly delivered].

That's obviously the definition of a verb, not a noun, so allow me to google some "shit" of my own. What you gave was the Latin definition which means "teeming with life". Oh, also found this, at eight weeks:

http://content.answers.com/main/content/wp/en/e/e4/Fetus.jpg

But anyway. Here's what I found:

fe·tus (fē'təs) pronunciation
n., pl. -tus·es.

1. The unborn young of a viviparous vertebrate having a basic structural resemblance to the adult animal.
2. In humans, the unborn young from the end of the eighth week after conception to the moment of birth, as distinguished from the earlier embryo.2.

[Middle English, from Latin fētus, offspring.]

Fetus

A developing baby inside the womb.

The article on Answers.com refers to the fetus several times as being a "human fetus". And unlike you, I have a link: http://www.answers.com/fetus&r=67


Because it doesn't have rights. It is under the full and unconditional control of the women bearing it. If the bitch don't want it then she should have to be forced to have it. Why is that such a hard concept to understand, why can't it be black and white, wait it is, but yall wanna bring in this damn gray area that has no purpose here.

Because it's a human being. It deserves the full and unconditional right to the sanctity of life, just like the rest of us. If the bitch don't want it she doesn't have to keep it, but she cannot simply kill it. Why is that such a hard concept to understand, why can't it be black and white, wait it is, but yall don't wanna think of anyone but yourself.

[General Septem]

It's not a baby, it is a fetus. Aborting a pregenancy is not wrong, that's like saying a bitch having a period is wrong or a miscarage for that matter. Sperm are half a human DNA, so is any form of ejaculation wrong?

Miscarriage is death by natural causes. Abortion is the willful termination of someone else's life. Ova and spermatoza are not human beings so periods and ejaculation don't even come into play. That's like saying dropping a screw on the ground is akin to destroying a building or someshit.

[beelzebub]

If you allow that, everyone will have their own idea of what a human being is.

They already do.

[General Septem]

They already do.

So anyone whose idea of a human being differs from yours is wrong, or what?

Whether someone is human or not isn't based on opinion. It's based on fact.

[beelzebub]

So anyone whose idea of a human being differs from yours is wrong, or what?

What!?! You mean to say: "So anyone whose idea of a human being differs from mine is wrong, or what?"

This conversation was all about your conversation with someone else! I was merely stating that just because you decide what is human and what is not doesn't mean that everyone else has to agree with you no matter the "evidence" that you purport.


Whether someone is human or not isn't based on opinion. It's based on fact.

It depends on what you mean by human being. Scientifically I support your opinion; However, social and philosophical definitions vary. It's a shame that you won’t recognize that others can be right in their own viewpoint while you are right in yours.

[ajk]

I don't get that, how can two people be right (having different viewpoints) when there is only one right answer?

[General Septem]

It depends on what you mean by human being. Scientifically I support your opinion; However, social and philosophical definitions vary.

They do vary. Some people don't think blacks are human. Some people think gays aren't human. I disagree with both, and I'm sure you do as well. I'm not accusing you of being racist, but who's to say that the people who think blacks aren't human are wrong, but the people who think fetuses aren't human are right? Because the differences between fetuses and other humans is different from the differences between blacks and other humans?

I think all humans are human and treat them all accordingly.

[beelzebub]

They do vary. Some people don't think blacks are human. Some people think gays aren't human. I disagree with both, and I'm sure you do as well. I'm not accusing you of being racist, but who's to say that the people who think blacks aren't human are wrong, but the people who think fetuses aren't human are right? Because the differences between fetuses and other humans is different from the differences between blacks and other humans?

Great?!.............. and thats wonderful!?

We are talking about a fetus. Stop trying to cloud it with race.

[General Septem]

Great?!.............. and thats wonderful!?

We are talking about a fetus. Stop trying to cloud it with race.

I'm not. I'm simply responding to your comment about social and philosophical definitions varying as to what makes someone a human being.

[beelzebub]

I'm not. I'm simply responding to your comment about social and philosophical definitions varying as to what makes someone a human being.

No! you are expanding it to other subjects. This is an abortion thread. Therefore the argument that I am presenting is concerned with abortion.

I have never heard ANYONE say that gays are not human. I have heard the converse is true of other races. HOWEVER - since the fetus in question is produced by a human I see it as human. That is a purely scientific point of view. Other may define a human as more than that. They are entitled to their viewpoint.

[ajk]

They are yes, but it doesn't change the fact that they're wrong.

[beelzebub]

They are yes, but it doesn't change the fact that they're wrong.

Ah yes... you and the other radicals have something in common.

[who897]

Ok, someone said something about rape victims should bring the pregnancy to term. I've said some pretty fucked up shit, but that's infringing on my claim to assholeness. I guess someone wants to play. Any hoot, you said bitch. LOL.

Actually it is based on opinion, yours, mine, and every other swinging dick (and bouncing boob) in here. That's why it's a discussion, you can support your "opinion" with facts. That doesn't mean anyone elses point of view is going to be swayed. It just means you get to sound all smarty pants like.

AJK let me give an example of how 2 people can be right with conflicting opinions. You may like how apples taste that is your "opinion", I do not, that is mine. We are both correct in our own opinions. This example was brought to a vvvveeeerrrrryyyy special person on a vvvveeeerrrrrryyyy special day.

[ajk]

Uh no, certain things are opinions. But certain things (such as this) have a right answer and a wrong answer. That right there is the problem with the world today. As I said before, there are no facts anymore, only opinions. And because of that the inmates are running the asylum.

[General Septem]

I have never heard ANYONE say that gays are not human. I have heard the converse is true of other races. HOWEVER - since the fetus in question is produced by a human I see it as human. That is a purely scientific point of view. Other may define a human as more than that. They are entitled to their viewpoint.

That's all I'm saying. A fetus is human. As a human you cannot deliberately and directly kill that person. If that means a mother is "forced" to carry it to term, well you can see it as unfortunate if you wish. We're not trying to force anyone to do anything. We're saying that abortion is the deliberate, direct, and unjust termination of an innocent human life and that it cannot be acceptable.

Stop accusing me of going off topic whenever I "bring race into it". I know you're smart enough to understand my point.

[who897]

No the problem today is you hardass relgious folks trying to force your views unto the world. But that's for a different thread.

A fetus does have a chance to be a "human" once it is born. Until it starts breathing it's own air it is still a fetus subject to the whims and desires of the woman carrying it.

As a human, we can deliberatly kill another. Ted Bundy did it. But we aren't talking about kill and torturing a person. We are talking about an embryo and how we should be able to suck that bugger right on out.

[ajk]

True to a point, but it doesn't mean it's right. Once the woman is pregnant she has a responsibility to carry that child and to raise it. Besides, being able to have an abortion cheapens the whole idea of sex. It's basically saying: "Oh do what you want. If you get pregnant you can just have an abortion." It defeats the entire purpose of sex to start with. The main reason for sex, is to reproduce. Sure there's pleasure that comes along with it, but that's secondary.

[beelzebub]

Uh no, certain things are opinions. But certain things (such as this) have a right answer and a wrong answer. That right there is the problem with the world today. As I said before, there are no facts anymore, only opinions. And because of that the inmates are running the asylum.

It’s really amazing how you have convinced yourself that this is Black & White. You also distance yourself from other radical groups that want to control others like you do. In essence you are narrow because of your reluctance and even refusal to understand another person’s point of view.

[ajk]

It is black and white though. How do you not understand this? It's a matter of life or death. Pretty black and white to me.

[who897]

See, if someone wants to reproduce they can go to kinko's and get a copy. Sex is about pleasure. Physical and emotional bond w/ someone else. And by forcing someone to not have an abortion you are denying that person of their persuit of happiness.

Putz. Even if you think of it as killing something, as death, maybe that should bring your life into focus. Make you could make a point that death can happen at any point in time. Cherish your life, and mind your own buisness when it comes to the lives of others who wish to have an abortion. (I lost my train of thought here, I know there is more to what I was gonna say, but I'm distracted right now by hunger)

[ajk]

See, if someone wants to reproduce they can go to kinko's and get a copy. Sex is about pleasure. Physical and emotional bond w/ someone else. And by forcing someone to not have an abortion you are denying that person of their persuit of happiness.


Sex is not all about pleasure. That's part of it yes, but it's main purpose is to become one with the other person, and create new life through the other. Which is why it's to be saved for marriage, and not be done outside of it. Being done outside of a marriage cheapens it, and abortion makes it worse. It creates a society that sees sex as something to be done without having to worry about a baby. Which defeats what the purpose of sex was to begin with. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.


Cherish your life, and mind your own buisness when it comes to the lives of others who wish to have an abortion.

Why should I stand by and watch an innocent life be taken away because of selfishness?

[ohreally]

Sex is not all about pleasure. That's part of it yes, but it's main purpose is to become one with the other person, and create new life through the other. Which is why it's to be saved for marriage, and not be done outside of it. Being done outside of a marriage cheapens it, and abortion makes it worse. It creates a society that sees sex as something to be done without having to worry about a baby. Which defeats what the purpose of sex was to begin with. Unfortunately, that's what we have now.
Actually, being outside of marriage could be a blessing in disguise to some. Sex is all about pleasure. Yes, it creates new life - but the fact is that it's not just for creating new life. As stated earlier, it could be the sole purpose of bonding.

[ajk]

I don't understand how that can be a blessing in disguise outside of marriage. Bonding comes with it, but that should be saved for marriage when it means more, since you've committed yourself to that person for as long as you live. What happens if you bond with someone, but then don't marry them? It just creates unneeded stress. Stress that could have been avoided if you had remained chaste.

As far as it being all about pleasure, it shouldn't be. Pleasure is an effect yes, but to have sex solely for the pleasure without being open to new life, is selfish.

[who897]

And saying a woman can't have an abortion is selfish. And saying others can't have sex is selfish. It's all how you look at things my little piggy.

[ajk]

No that's different, because they have a human life in them. And for them to play God by deciding to kill it because it's inconvieient, that is selfish.

[who897]

And you are selfish for saying they are selfish my tootsie pop

[ajk]

How do you figure? Do they not have a life inside them? Who are they to reject it? Are they bigger then God all of a sudden?

[ohreally]

I don't understand how that can be a blessing in disguise outside of marriage. Bonding comes with it, but that should be saved for marriage when it means more, since you've committed yourself to that person for as long as you live. What happens if you bond with someone, but then don't marry them? It just creates unneeded stress. Stress that could have been avoided if you had remained chaste.

As far as it being all about pleasure, it shouldn't be. Pleasure is an effect yes, but to have sex solely for the pleasure without being open to new life, is selfish.
What's so selfish about it? Shouldn't it be a good thing a couple has sex even if it's just for pleasure, so that maybe one day there maybe one day, they will decide to bring on new life? You and your crazy rules! Sex outside of marriage can be a blessing in disguise! It may bring you together even more with another person, and make your relationship even more special.

What happens if you bond with someone, but then don't marry them? You don't marry them. Stress? Actually in some sense - Marriage can be stress. I would come to believe more bonding would equal less stress really. Rather than getting Married just to have sex.

[ajk]

There's more to it then that, marriage is the ultimate sacrifice when you think about it. You're laying down your life for the sake of another person. You can't say that about a regular boyfriend/girlfriend relationship so much.

[ohreally]

There's more to it then that, marriage is the ultimate sacrifice when you think about it. You're laying down your life for the sake of another person. You can't say that about a regular boyfriend/girlfriend relationship so much.
Yes, but you still have to bond before you even make that commitment. Sex can still be done outside of marriage - and it may help a couple get to that point. Im not saying it works for everybody but I am saying it can help some couples.

[ajk]

Possibly, but it still isn't right.

[ohreally]

Possibly, but it still isn't right.
What do you mean it isn't right? If it helps the relationship then it must be right.

[ajk]

Not neccessarily. Sex was never meant to be had outside of marriage. That's how it was then, and how it is now, or at least should be.

[ohreally]

Not neccessarily. Sex was never meant to be had outside of marriage. That's how it was then, and how it is now, or at least should be.
Sure, maybe back in the year 5 it may have been. :P
The fact is, if a couple feels comfortable enough - they will have sex. Despite Marriage or not.

What if sex outside of marriage saved a relationship, and they went on to marry - and eventually have kids? Would you still be protesting Mr. Bible?

[ajk]

What's so selfish about it? Shouldn't it be a good thing a couple has sex even if it's just for pleasure, so that maybe one day there maybe one day, they will decide to bring on new life? You and your crazy rules!

It isn't my rules, but it's God's rules, and there is a reason for them as I stated before.



What happens if you bond with someone, but then don't marry them? You don't marry them. Stress? Actually in some sense - Marriage can be stress. I would come to believe more bonding would equal less stress really. Rather than getting Married just to have sex.

Marriage is gonna have stress, that's a given. But in terms of the stress if you have sex with someone and don't marry them, you still feel that emotional bond because you became one with that person. Therefore, it makes it harder to commit to another person as a result.

[ajk]

Sure, maybe back in the year 5 it may have been. :P
The fact is, if a couple feels comfortable enough - they will have sex. Despite Marriage or not.

What if sex outside of marriage saved a relationship, and they went on to marry - and eventually have kids? Would you still be protesting Mr. Bible?

I'd be happy for them, but at the same time still wouldn't agree with their decision to have sex before marriage.

[ohreally]

It isn't my rules, but it's God's rules

Still buying that candy corn, eh?

[ajk]

Yes, and that "candy corn" is the one good thing left these days, and even that is getting pushed aside. It's a shame really.

[ohreally]

Yes, and that "candy corn" is the one good thing left these days, and even that is getting pushed aside. It's a shame really.
It's doing more evil than good really. It's all a big scam my son.

[ajk]

How is it doing more evil then good? I'd say it's the other way around.

[ohreally]

How is it doing more evil then good? I'd say it's the other way around.
Because your evil cult is bitching about not having full authority of every minor detail in this country. Sorry, the United States does not have a 'team.'

[ajk]

Well they should really, and we're not an evil cult. If anything we're a good cult. We're trying to save souls. An evil cult does the opposite.

[ohreally]

Well they should really, and we're not an evil cult. If anything we're a good cult. We're trying to save souls. An evil cult does the opposite.
Extremist = Evil

[ajk]

No sorry, we're far far from evil.

[ajk]

Because your evil cult is bitching about not having full authority of every minor detail in this country. Sorry, the United States does not have a 'team.'

We don't want authority of every detail, just the important things (ie abortion and gay marriage)

[ohreally]

No sorry, we're far far from evil.
Im feel so bad, because your brainwashed by your crummy church full of extremist that want you to believe in sky monsters that will send you to a lava cave if you do not bend over for them.

Abortion is a woman's choice. It's their body.
Sex before marriage is not always doomed.

[ajk]

Actually I feel sorry for you, you don't understand it. One day you will I can assure you. As for being brainwashed, I think you guys are the ones that have been brainwashed, by the culture.

[ajk]

Sex before marriage is not always doomed.

I never said a relationship is doomed per se if they have sex before marriage. All I said was while a couple may still get married, it doesn't make the act of having sex before it right.

[General Septem]

I might take this opportunity to explain the Church's position on the matter. Our philosophy is that sexual intercourse is the most intimate physical connection a couple can share, and as such it should only be shared with one person. Otherwise it cheapens it.

[ajk]

Very well put, and to add to that I will say this: If you really love the person and intend to marry them, then you should love them enough to wait until your wedding night to officially "consumate" the relationship.

[Deez_nutz]

I might take this opportunity to explain the Church's position on the matter. Our philosophy is that sexual intercourse is the most intimate physical connection a couple can share, and as such it should only be shared with one person. Otherwise it cheapens it.

What does the church have to do with anything about abortion. Religion, in my opinion, has not proven to me that it has been justifiable to even have around. For one, I don't even know if god really exists, in all actuality, no one knows 100% for sure if god exists. So, to sit there and claim that a religion, that basis it's entire existence on something that nobody can prove exists, can even have a position is ludicrous. I get a kick out of people that will resort to religion in order to try and get their point across. A religion is nothing more than a cult and we all know how we look at cults......

[ajk]

Again it goes back to logic. There are things that are just accepted as as things that are, even if they can't be explained through logic. Religion and God would be one of those things.

[who897]

Ok your an idiot bubble cakes. I can deal with Septem cuz everyone once in a blue moon he makes some sorta sense or he has a small compromise. But you are a total bible tumping neanderthal. You hold onto your relgion, as the world passes you by. You are the extreme that everyone wants to distant themselves from. You believe any kinda sexual encounters are wrong, and you back that up by saying your god says so. Know what, your god can kiss my big black ass, because that ultimate sacrifice you said was abstaining from sex until you get married is a crock of shit. The ultimate sacrifice bub, is defending and possiblly dying for the person/thing you cherish more then anything. Sex is a physical act between two people (or more, depending how you swing it) sometimes, it's for reproduction, some times it is to make a bond. Sure you could get an STD from it, but you could also get some kinda fucking viral infection just by shaking someones hand, or breating the same air. So, go study your bible my little boobly head, and live in your fantasy world.

[ajk]

Whatever you say, you'll understand one day. You may not now, but you will.

[who897]

ohhh scary my little gray gadget

[ajk]

Laugh all you want now, you won't be laughing later.

[Ape-Shit]

Po-lease, give me a frekin break! Laugh Today, cause no one will be laughing Tomorrow.....! Ha,Ha,Ha.

[Dakota]

I am silly... I wrote 2 months, its 2 years! Jeeza, I need to lay off the martinis!


LOL :D
I was actually wondering how a 2 months old would tuck on your apron :o - but you never know ...

Anyways - Hi Everyone. I kinda miss you guys ... I'm just too darn busy right now. My parents are finally here, which is great, they help me with Emma, and clean the house for the big day, but then there's still sooo much else to do ... and I have to help them too with figuring things out over here ....
My friend will fly in tomorrow and stay for 10 days. Once he's here I won't have ANY time because I'm gonna have to entertain him.
After he leaves and everything's back to normal, I hope to hang out here much more again :)


AJK - thanks for defending the little babies! I'm sorry to hear that your mom considered aborting you. I obviously have no idea what that feels like, but just imagining that my mom would have cosidered that kind of creeps me out.
My mom was 42 when she found out that she was pregnant with me - which back then was unthinkably old. So when she went to the doctor to confirm, they said someting to the effect of "of course you're not gonna have this baby". She told me she totally told them off, stormed out and never went back.

Anyways, I'll talk to you all later.

[ajk]

You're quite welcome Dakota. If we don't do it, then who will? Good for your mom too BTW. Lastly congratulations to whoever is getting married in your family, assuming someone is that is.

[who897]

Don't take life so seriously, you'll never get out alive. Before you say congrats, you might wanna find out if it's a same sex marrage, cuz if it was, man you would feel like a dunce my little red eyed bambi

[ajk]

Somehow I doubt that it is to be honest.

[Dakota]

You're quite welcome Dakota. If we don't do it, then who will? Good for your mom too BTW. Lastly congratulations to whoever is getting married in your family, assuming someone is that is.


Hey thanks :)

Nobody is actually getting married :). My daughter is getting baptized and we're using the occasion to invite everybody and their brother over for a bbq which we haven't done in like 3 years.
One of my best friends from Germany is coming out to be Emma's godparent and my parents also came out to be here for the baptism and help me out for a few weeks.

Anyways ..... I'm sure you've figured this one out by now, but - don't take who 897 too seriously. He's either waaay out there, or just in here to provoke reactions and get a rise out of people - which is what I think. Most of his arguments are so beyond reason, there's really nothing one can say ...

Hope to chat with you more in a couple of weeks.
Take Care :)

[ajk]

Yeah, that seems to be a theme with people who don't understand. You almost feel sorry for them. Congrats on the baptism (now that I actually know what it is I'm congratulating lol).

[who897]

Actually it is I who not almost but does feel sorry for yall, cuz ya have no idea, you aint going to some cloudy heaven, your just gonna go to dirt and die just like every other thing on earth. I agree don't take me seriously, there is nothing in this life you should take too seriously, cuz you aint getting outta it alive.

Did you ask the kid if it wanted a baptism? I mean, isn't that sorta forcing your faith onto something? Ohh wait it is, I was baptised, but what a crock of shit that was, I wasn't fucking asked first, asshole parents I swear.

Viva el Abortions

[ajk]

All I can say forgive him Father he knows not what he says, and I forgive you as well.

And in regards to the baptism, they have that right and it's not forcing a faith on anybody. Ultimately it's up to the person themselve to find faith.

[who897]

I know exactly what the fuck I'm saying, I'm saying no, that's fucked up, baptism, you are making someone do something religious without getting their approval. Sorta like abortion you twats except it's born and it has a right not to choice that BS.

[General Septem]

Did you ask the kid if it wanted a baptism? I mean, isn't that sorta forcing your faith onto something? Ohh wait it is, I was baptised, but what a crock of shit that was, I wasn't fucking asked first, asshole parents I swear.

You see, there's somewhat of a difference between killing someone and dipping them in water. I know how similar they may seem but bear with me.

It used to be that baptism was only done to adults but it was decided that this wasn't necessary.

It's not forcing faith on anyone either. You very obviously have a choice what you want to believe now that you're grown up. Your baptism doesn't affect your life on Earth except that if you choose to be a Christian you don't need to be re-baptized. So spare me the crock.