Islam Is A Piece Of Shit Religion

[ronald baldus]

Here Is A Religion Where All Muslim Countries Are Full Of Terrorist.all Islam Countries Chop Peoples Heads Off They All Treat Women Like Shit They All Kill Christians Jews And Anyone Who Does Not Bow To Them. This Is Not A Few But All Muslim Countries. Anywehere Muslims Go In The World Would It Be The Middle East ,europe, U.s. Or Aficra They Cause Terrorism Everywhere They Go. This Is No Religion Of Peace. This Is A Religion Of Hate Evil Terrorism Violent Satanic Religion That Has Nothing To Do With God. Americans Should Not Tolerate It In Any Way Shape Or Form. This Is The Greatest Threat To The Western World. Wake Up America.

[REPTILE]

Can somebody say..... asshole.

[joshua]

wait a sec , who said all muslims hate christians ,i dont hate u ,actually i like u a little ,i cant deny that we have lots and lots of idiots just like urself who cant accept others and respect them ...and it s not my fault that there is idiots in my religion just bin ladin and zarquawi ass shit:D ..but dont generalize dude .. im a muslim ,im studying into a christian school and we all are bonded together ......U CANT JUDGE PEOPLE ,ONLY FOR WHAT THEIR ID SAYS :confused:

[England Expects]

American conservative religious extremists, like Bush should ask themselves one question.

WHICH COUNTRY WOULD JESUS BOMB?

[dancer]

American conservative religious extremists, like Bush should ask themselves one question.

WHICH COUNTRY WOULD JESUS BOMB?

Thank GW! Because of him this country has not been attacked since 9-11-2001. Jesus would have bombed all the terrorist countries or those countries supporting terrorists who take pride and joy in beheading people.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I hope you don't mean that. Every aspect of Jesus states that he would not only NOT bomb anyone, but that he would forgive them for their crimes, regardless of how severe just as long as they realized their fault and truly want forgiveness.

[England Expects]

Didn't Jesus teach that it's better to turn the other cheek?

The terrorist's distort Islam to justify their means and to subvert their people for their own gain.

Much in the same way as America (GWB and his neo-consevative friends especially) pervert the gospels.

The idea that Jesus would bomb ANYBODY is absurd. Republican America has it's head up its own ass and to the rest of the world its a joke.

GOD BLESS AMERICA:rolleyes:

[rawsugar]

Point well made I think England Expects.

[beelzebub]

Thank GW! Because of him this country has not been attacked since 9-11-2001. Jesus would have bombed all the terrorist countries or those countries supporting terrorists who take pride and joy in beheading people.


WWWWHHHAAATTT? If you enjoy your religion because you think this is your god, I am happy to be an atheist. Thats sick.

[freakazoid]

WWWWHHHAAATTT? If you enjoy your religion because you think this is your god, I am happy to be an atheist. Thats sick.

For a "Mensa" member, you surely lack in clear thinking sometimes, beelzebub. No human being is capable of being an "atheist." It is totally impossible to be one. Why? Simple; by claiming that you are an atheist, you are stating that, IN FACT, their is NO God. There is no one capable of making that statement. You would have to look everywhere in the entire arena of reality, search all possible places, times, and dimensions personally and, having found no God or Gods; declare that you are an atheist because you have verified that no God exist. You, and NO ONE else, have even come close to being able to do so. Atheism is a fantasy embraced by people who simply want to block God from their life and mind. At best, you might be able to claim that you are agnostic, which any moron can do. Take heart, beelzebub, God already knows your thinking and he has used your name in the Bible...

"the FOOL has said in his heart...there is no God."

- King David

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Wow, powerful words. Too bad they're going to be received improperly and negatively and a wave of combat will arise over this forum because of them.

[freakazoid]

Wow, powerful words. Too bad they're going to be received improperly and negatively and a wave of combat will arise over this forum because of them.

Sheeeshh!! You are probably right, Brains_Behind_Operation, that could cause a debate that goes on forever! :eek::(

[England Expects]

A Christian doesn't need proof of the existance of God. Christianity is not science, it's faith.

In exactly the same way, and atheist doesn't need proof that there is no God.

Neither can be proved beyond doubt. I dont believe there is. If I'm wrong and there is, I'm sure he doen't give a fuck about anyone on Earth.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

That's a poor philosophy. Why would God have created the Earth and humans if he didn't care? Most people who create a child care very much about that child. Many care so much about the child that they'd give their own life to save the child's. I don't see why God would be any different from these people in this respect. We are his children.

[England Expects]

Maybe.

But not all parents treat their kids as they should.

[General Septem]

Maybe.

But not all parents treat their kids as they should.
That's because people don't really know just how much they put in to raising their kids. People just screw each other and the baby grows itself. I mean half the time they didn't even want kids and then the rest of the time they just jumped in too hastily without knowing all the variables. God had so much more to do with our existance than just that. God put His heart and soul into creating everything - the laws of physics, all the matter in the universe, everything. I don't know if you're a writer, but I am. I've only really written one thing, but it's a really huge story, and it's something I'm constantly thinking about. I love the characters in the story as if they actually existed, and really they do exist. I'm not sure if you could understand.

[England Expects]

"God put His heart and soul into creating everything - the laws of physics, all the matter in the universe, everything."

That's what you believe and that's fine. I dont share your belief, but I respect your right to believe it.

What seems to be lacking from the Christians on here is respect for people who are not Christian. You disobey your own God, who told you to love your neighbour.

America takes pride in liberty and freedom, yet is intolerant of anyone who disagrees.

[General Septem]

What seems to be lacking from the Christians on here is respect for people who are not Christian. You disobey your own God, who told you to love your neighbour.
In what way to you think I'm doing this?

[England Expects]

Not you particularly General, but the idiot who started the thread, saying that Islam is s piece of shit religion. Another one saying muslims are morons. There's even someone on here saying Jesus would bomb people:confused:

Let me tell the ignorant amongst you a little about Islam.

Jesus (Isa) and Mary (Maryiam) are revered in the Qu'ran. They believe Jesus to be the only human ever born without being touched by Satan (sexless conception). They believe Jesus was a great prophet but not the Son of God.

They also believe that true Christians are pure of heart and will have their place in heaven.

When Christians make statements like "Islam is a piece of shit religion", they dont realise how similar Islam is to their own faith.

[General Septem]

But that's the thing, they don't believe Jesus was the Son of God and that He died for our sins. They don't accept Him as their Saviour.

But on the other hand, I don't believe it is really a part of the Muslim faith that they are supposed to kill people for various things, because the same is accused of Christianity. So I wouldn't say it's a "piece of shit religion", but it goes against what I believe.

[England Expects]

But you say that we're all Gods children. Therefore I am the Son of God, and so are you.

The divinity of Christ wasn't suggested until 590ad by Pope Gregory the Great. To early Christians, Jesus wasn't God, but a very special prophet.

Muslims do believe in the teachings of Jesus. They believe he was sent by God.

My entire point being, you religious types (Christian and Muslim) spend so long thinking about your differences that you fail to see that your beliefs are almost identical.

[General Septem]

The divinity of Christ wasn't suggested until 590ad by Pope Gregory the Great. To early Christians, Jesus wasn't God, but a very special prophet.

I just skimmed through two articles on Pope Gregory I and found nothing to the effect of what you're talking about.

But either way, it isn't true, or at the very least it's something else that has been misinterpreted. The Gospels have always maintained that Jesus was both God and Man. But there were also some "Gospels" written by people after Jesus' ascention that claimed He was only God and not Man. I imagine there were people at the time who also thought the opposite. The problem was that the Church was still so new, they hadn't had much time yet to sort out once and for all which books were canon and whatnot. But it was around 200 AD that they decided that certain books were inspired and certain books were not.

[England Expects]

Maybe it wasn't Gregory but it certainly was much later than the ascension.

Most, if not all of the New Testament was written after the crucifixion. First generation followers of Jesus didn't need a permanent record of his teachings. Some historians date the Gospel of Matthew as late as 134AD.

Even the Old Testament wasn't fixed until AD90.

Irenaeus of Lyon began vetting various works in AD180 and the document wasn't ratified until AD473.

I dont want to get into the whole "Da Vinci" conspirisy rubbish, but it is clear that the document you read was written and ratified by men with an agenda and certainly isn't the word of God.

[General Septem]

Most, if not all of the New Testament was written after the crucifixion. First generation followers of Jesus didn't need a permanent record of his teachings. Some historians date the Gospel of Matthew as late as 134AD.
Well of course it was written after the Crucifixion. Most of the New Testament was letters written by the Apostles to various cities. This was after Jesus ascended into Heaven. Jesus Himself didn't write anything, that we know of. But they were written by the Apostles. The Gospels may not have been physically written by the Apostles themselves, but they were handed down at least orally by the Apostles and written down not long thereafter.

[freakazoid]

But you say that we're all Gods children. Therefore I am the Son of God, and so are you.

The divinity of Christ wasn't suggested until 590ad by Pope Gregory the Great. To early Christians, Jesus wasn't God, but a very special prophet.

Muslims do believe in the teachings of Jesus. They believe he was sent by God.

My entire point being, you religious types (Christian and Muslim) spend so long thinking about your differences that you fail to see that your beliefs are almost identical.
RE: "The divinity of Christ wasn't suggested until 590ad by Pope Gregory the Great. To early Christians, Jesus wasn't God, but a very special prophet."

That statement is completely, historically and absolutely incorrect. Under no circumstances is it accurate. Period. The divinity of Christ was firmly established in The New Testament and prophesized about in the Old Testament. It is in fact a myth that Jesus was not firmly established before, during and after his earthly life, as divine. His divinity was clearly documented in the New Testament long before any "pope" had anything to say about it.

[beelzebub]

The divinity of Christ was firmly established in The New Testament and prophesized about in the Old Testament. It is in fact a myth that Jesus was not firmly established before, during and after his earthly life, as divine. His divinity was clearly documented in the New Testament long before any "pope" had anything to say about it.[/SIZE][/FONT]

Now,... I hope you dont mean that the bible is evidence that Jesus was divine!?!?!?!! - Divine is defined as "of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god" Gimme a break! The bible does not prove it. It writes about it and thats it.

[General Septem]

Now,... I hope you dont mean that the bible is evidence that Jesus was divine!?!?!?!! - Divine is defined as "of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god" Gimme a break! The bible does not prove it. It writes about it and thats it.
He didn't say anything about evidence. We're just saying that the notion that nobody ever thought Jesus was divine until hundreds of years after His death and ressurection is false.

[England Expects]

The New Testament says things that can be interepreted and meaning or suggesting that Jesus was divine. It was written in either Hebrew or Greek and the meanings after translation could differ wildly form the intended meaning when written.

The early church actively decided the "correct" translation and what its followers should believe about every aspect of it, including the divinity of Christ.

You can dismiss this as a myth is you like, but you're the ones who believe in myths and legends.

[freakazoid]

He didn't say anything about evidence. We're just saying that the notion that nobody ever thought Jesus was divine until hundreds of years after His death and ressurection is false.
That is correct, general. From the very beginning of Christianity, Jesus was understood as being divine, the son of God and "of being" God himself. It was NOT a concept somehow introduced later by any pope or other religious "authority." John, in writing about Jesus in his gospel says...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

"Word" in the Greek language (used in John's gospel) is "logos" or the pysical expression of the eternal God...i.e., Jesus Christ. "Christ" is a word meaning "God with us" or "God in the flesh."

John walked with Jesus himself and was one of the first disciples and wrote his Gospel very early in church history, as early as 60AD.

Also...

The Old Testament declares that He would be God...

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his
shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
~Isaiah 9:6~

[freakazoid]

Now,... I hope you dont mean that the bible is evidence that Jesus was divine!?!?!?!! - Divine is defined as "of, relating to, or proceeding directly from God or a god" Gimme a break! The bible does not prove it. It writes about it and thats it.
Wrong. :( See above, beelzebub. There were eyewitnesses to his life well documented. What "proof" do you seek?

[England Expects]

That is correct, general. From the very beginning of Christianity, Jesus was understood as being divine, the son of God and "of being" God himself. It was NOT a concept somehow introduced later by any pope or other religious "authority." John, in writing about Jesus in his gospel says...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

"Word" in the Greek language (used in John's gospel) is "logos" or the pysical expression of the eternal God...i.e., Jesus Christ. "Christ" is a word meaning "God with us" or "God in the flesh."

John walked with Jesus himself and was one of the first disciples and wrote his Gospel very early in church history, as early as 60AD.

Also...

The Old Testament declares that He would be God...

"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his
shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God,
The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace."
~Isaiah 9:6~

There is nothing in either of those aruaments that states beyond doubt that "Jesus Christ IS God.. literally"

There's no wonder you're all confused when you think the word "logos" proves that Jesus is God.

[General Septem]

There is nothing in either of those aruaments that states beyond doubt that "Jesus Christ IS God.. literally"

There's no wonder you're all confused when you think the word "logos" proves that Jesus is God.
Well then let's add another piece to the puzzle: "word made flesh".

[freakazoid]

There is nothing in either of those aruaments that states beyond doubt that "Jesus Christ IS God.. literally"

There's no wonder you're all confused when you think the word "logos" proves that Jesus is God.

Do you want absolute proof? And, I mean absolute.

[freakazoid]

There is nothing in either of those aruaments that states beyond doubt that "Jesus Christ IS God.. literally"

There's no wonder you're all confused when you think the word "logos" proves that Jesus is God.

RE: " There is nothing in either of those aruaments that states beyond doubt that "Jesus Christ IS God.. literally"

You can't be serious...what does "THE MIGHTY GOD" mean? And, Jesus Himself declared that he was God, consider the following...

The angel-THAT WHICH IS CONCEIVED IN HER IS OF THE HOLY GHOST-Mt 1:20.
The angel Gabriel-THAT HOLY THING...SHALL BE CALLED THE SON OF GOD-Lk 1:35.
Satan-He knew Jesus was the Son of God-ref Mt 4:3-11; Lk 4:3-13.
John the Baptist-BEHOLD THE LAMB OF GOD-Jn 1:29,36.
John the Baptist-THIS IS THE SON OF GOD-Jn 1:34; 5:36.
Nathanael-THOU ART THE SON OF GOD-Jn 1:49. The unclean spirit-I KNOW THEE...THE HOLY ONE OF GOD-Mk 1:24.
The devils-THOU ART CHRIST THE SON OF GOD-Lk 4:41.
The unclean spirits-THOU ART THE SON OF GOD-Mk 3:11.
The unclean devil-THE HOLY ONE OF GOD-Lk 4:34.
The unclean spirit-JESUS, THOU SON OF THE MOST HIGH GOD-Mk 5:7.
Jesus had said-GOD WAS HIS FATHER-Jn 5:18.
Peter-WE BELIEVE AND ARE SURE THAT THOU ART THAT CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD-Jn 6:69.
Jesus said-I…CAME FROM GOD-Jn 8:42.
Jesus-DOST THOU BELIEVE ON THE SON OF GOD?...IT IS HE THAT TALKETH WITH THEE-Jn 9:35,37.
Martha-I BELIEVE...THOU ART...THE SON OF GOD-Jn 11:27.
The disciples in the boat-OF A TRUTH THOU ART THE SON OF GOD-Mt 14:33.
Peter-THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF THE LIVING GOD-Mt 16:16; ref Jn 6:69.
Martha-THOU ART THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD-Jn 11:27.
His disciples-WE BELIEVE THAT THOU CAMEST FORTH FROM GOD-Jn 16:30.
Thomas said-MY LORD AND MY GOD-Jn 20:28.
John-JESUS IS THE CHRIST, THE SON OF GOD-Jn 20:31.
Jesus-They…asked, "Are you...the Son of God?" He replied, "YOU ARE RIGHT IN SAYING I AM"-Lk 22:70 NIV. JESUS SAID, I AM-Mk 14:62.
The centurion-TRULY THIS WAS THE SON OF GOD-Mt 27:54; ref Mk 15:39.
The works He did, proved He was the Son of God-ref Jn 5:36; 10:38.
The Father-THIS IS MY BELOVED SON-Mt 3:17; ref Jn 5:37.
The witness of God’s Word—the numerous prophecies.
The resurrection, many witnesses, and many portions of Scripture.

AND MOSES SAID UNTO GOD, BEHOLD, WHEN I COME UNTO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, AND SHALL SAY UNTO THEM, THE GOD OF YOUR FATHERS HATH SENT ME UNTO YOU; AND THEY SHALL SAY TO ME, WHAT IS HIS NAME? WHAT SHALL I SAY UNTO THEM?

AND GOD SAID UNTO MOSES, I AM THAT I AM: AND HE SAID, THUS SHALT THOU SAY UNTO THE CHILDREN OF ISRAEL, I AM HATH SENT ME UNTO YOU-Ex 3:13,14.

Jesus said:
I AM-Mk 14:62.
I AM THE SON OF GOD-Jn 10:36.
I AM THE BREAD OF LIFE-Jn 6:35.
I AM THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD-Jn 8:12.
BEFORE ABRAHAM WAS, I AM-Jn 8:58.
I AM THE GOOD SHEPHERD-Jn 10:11.
I AM THE RESURRECTION, AND THE LIFE-Jn 11:25.
I AM THE WAY, THE TRUTH, AND THE LIFE-Jn 14:6.
I AM THE TRUE VINE-Jn 15:1.
I AM THE LIVING BREAD-Jn 6:31.

[freakazoid]

Well then let's add another piece to the puzzle: "word made flesh".

Very good point.

[England Expects]

You miss my point.

As I said, the "suitable translations" of scriptures included in the New Testament were selected and vetted by the early Catholic church. This process took 200 years.

You're quoting scripture in English. After translation from Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek, into Latin and then English, the actual meaning of the original text could be completely lost.

You believe what a men from the 4th century have told you to believe. Men are not infallible. The book is NOT the word of God.

[General Septem]

You're quoting scripture in English. After translation from Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek, into Latin and then English, the actual meaning of the original text could be completely lost.
A lot of people like to claim the Bible was changed in translation but it's simply not true. The only backing you have for this claim is that other dumbass atheists have also said it. That's why you said "could be completely lost", because you are talking out of your ass.

In fact the only instance I can think of this occuring is when Martin Luther translated the Bible into German, he changed "It's is by faith that we are saved" to "It is by fiath alone that we are saved" because he thought that's what the passage really meant. But that's just another reason why Martin Luther was wrong.

[England Expects]

Due to the way languages are structured its virtually impossible to translate such a huge document and maintain accuracy of context in every verse.

I shouldn't be surprised that an American Christian is happy to bury his head in the sand and accuse me of talking out of my ass.

If you want to understand the true meaning of the texts, learn Hebrew and Greek and read the "unedited" versions.

[General Septem]

Due to the way languages are structured its virtually impossible to translate such a huge document and maintain accuracy of context in every verse.

I shouldn't be surprised that an American Christian is happy to bury his head in the sand and accuse me of talking out of my ass.

If you want to understand the true meaning of the texts, learn Hebrew and Greek and read the "unedited" versions.
That poses a problem for people who think the Bible is to be taken word-for-word literally, but then again, all the different translations could pose a problem too, if you're obsessive compulsive. There's a hundred ways you can write something and still get the message through, and it's the message, not the words, that is important.

There are a few things that could not be easily translated, but they have also been explained. For example, the Gospels talk about Jesus's supposed brothers, even though Mary remained a virgin. But we know that the word for "brother" could have also meant cousin, which it probably did. Sometimes things are misunderstood because they were written archaically, but it's never catastrophic.

[freakazoid]

You miss my point.

As I said, the "suitable translations" of scriptures included in the New Testament were selected and vetted by the early Catholic church. This process took 200 years.

You're quoting scripture in English. After translation from Hebrew/Aramaic and Greek, into Latin and then English, the actual meaning of the original text could be completely lost.

You believe what a men from the 4th century have told you to believe. Men are not infallible. The book is NOT the word of God.
Wrong, I have and continue to study and research Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek. In all three languages, Jesus from the very beginning of his life and the early days of the church, has ALWAYS been declared to be God/Divine and that fact is EVEN MORE CLEAR in the original languages. Example...

John 1:1, 2 (using some very clear greek words)...

John 1:1 - I In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

:: Using greek words...

John 1:1 - In the beginning was the LOGOS, and the LOGOS was with DIOS, and the LOGOS was DIOS.

John 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

:: Using greek words...

John 1:2 The same (LOGOS) was in the beginning with DIOS.

John is using a word expressing the "logos" with means the physical expression of God, i.e., Jesus (which is who John's gospel is about, the life of Jesus). Or the part of God that is physical as Jesus was and is today. He told so-called "doubting Thomas" to "touch me, for mere spirit has not flesh and blood"...Jesus is clearly the physical part or expression of the one living God.

Sadly, you are completely wrong.

I ask again, do you want absolute proof?

[England Expects]

I'm not asking for proof.

If what you are saying is true in all cases, why did it take 200 years for the church to authorise the document? This is a fact which you cannot dispute!!

If you're really studying those languages you will understand that it is impossible to translate it vebatim into latin and then into English.

[General Septem]

If what you are saying is true in all cases, why did it take 200 years for the church to authorise the document?
It didn't. That's the point.

In around 200 AD they decided which books were official and which books were snuck in by people with their own agendas, but that doesn't mean the Church was coming up with all these new ideas at the time or that they didn't believe all these things before then.

[freakazoid]

A lot of people like to claim the Bible was changed in translation but it's simply not true. The only backing you have for this claim is that other dumbass atheists have also said it. That's why you said "could be completely lost", because you are talking out of your ass.

In fact the only instance I can think of this occuring is when Martin Luther translated the Bible into German, he changed "It's is by faith that we are saved" to "It is by fiath alone that we are saved" because he thought that's what the passage really meant. But that's just another reason why Martin Luther was wrong.

Very good point, General. Very interesting.

[theicidal maniac]

So I'm holding Al-Qur'an Al-hakiim...this being the Tahrike Tarsile edition of the "glorious" Koran. The first line of this book is "bismillah al-rahman, al-rahim" (but in pronunciation it is more like bismillahir rahmanir rahim) and anyone familiar with Islam or Arabic is familiar with this phrase. However, on page xiii this edition illustrates the difficulties in translating a Semitic language like Arabic into a Germanic language like English. 24 scholars, some native English speakers and some native Arabic speakers, list their own translations of this verse on this page. Many of these men have doctorates in linguistic study and theism, many have ph.d's, and not ONE translation is identical. Even in the most complex of these translations the translator converts the phrase into only THIRTEEN English words. Imagine how many possible combinations arise in all the words in the Old Testament, which was also written in a Semetic language, Old Hebrew. Keep in mind the "bismillah" is arguably the most widely used phrase in Islam and is (not arguably) THE SINGLE MOST COMMONLY FOUND PHRASE IN ARABIC ART and no one can agree entirely on the translation. Of course the meaning is MOSTLY the same but interpretation of these books OFTEN comes down to splitting hairs with terms like "omniscient" and "eternal" and "son of God." When it comes to Hebrew words meaning "young woman" sometimes they got translated into Greek by monks as "virgin," because that's what they expected to see. But the Jews never expected the Messiah to be born of a virgin. In fact, Jesus embodied none of the traits that they were told to look for in the Messiah. The next Koranic verse invites FORTY-ONE scholars to the task and again...not a single identical translation. But surely verses in the Koran that SPECIFICALLY endorse violence held their meaning in translation. And I doubt mis-translation is a good excuse for the hateful filth that is spouted in Deuteronomy chapter 13...read it EVERYONE, it's ONE PAGE, and it shows the true heart of the religions of Abraham

I win

[England Expects]

Interesting.

"And that prophet or that dreamer of the dreams should be put to death"

And

"You must not accede to his wish or listen to him, nor protect him, but you should kill him without fail. Your hand first of all should come upon him and put him to death"

And

"You should without fail strike at the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword. Devote it and everything in it, and its domestic animals to destruction at the edge of the sword"

And you Jesus-freaks reckon Islam is a piece of shit.

[General Septem]

Interesting.

"And that prophet or that dreamer of the dreams should be put to death"

And

"You must not accede to his wish or listen to him, nor protect him, but you should kill him without fail. Your hand first of all should come upon him and put him to death"

And

"You should without fail strike at the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword. Devote it and everything in it, and its domestic animals to destruction at the edge of the sword"

And you Jesus-freaks reckon Islam is a piece of shit.
Who are you quoting?

[England Expects]

Deuteronomy 13, as suggested.

Are you suggesting it's not reliable?

[General Septem]

Deuteronomy 13, as suggested.

Are you suggesting it's not reliable?
No, I was asking who you were quoting, because I didn't remember reading it in previous posts. I didn't say anything about reliability.

[England Expects]

Theicidal Maniac has suggested reading Deuteronomy Chapter 13; In which God's followers are instructed to kill non-believers, their families and animals and burn their houses.

Nice bloke, your God.

[General Septem]

Theicidal Maniac has suggested reading Deuteronomy Chapter 13; In which God's followers are instructed to kill non-believers, their families and animals and burn their houses.

Nice bloke, your God.
Perhaps you should read it again. It speaks this not of non-believers but of people who atempt to turn you away from God. Heresy was an offense punishable by death in the old Jewish government. This is what I mean about the Bible not being meant to be taken completely literally. This wasn't individual action the passage was speaking of, but governmental action. Heresy was considered a crime, just like murder or robbery is a crime today, and it was considered a very serious crime. Jesus made this a moot point, so rather than bugging Christians about it, perhaps you should go bother some Jew about it.

[theicidal maniac]

so why even bother keeping the old testament if there are things in it that you aren't supposed to follow anymore? That whole "Jesus changed the eternal laws of God" argument means that Gods laws are subject to change...this is what i mean by Muslims taking a page from christians about selective reading. You seriously have to ignore HUGE portions of "God's word" to see your religion as peaceful.

[who897]

All religions are money making scemes. They lull you into a false belief to help you feel more secure in this life thinking that there will be an after life. I guess it sorta gives you people purpose, cuz with out it, you would be nothing. Where as, me, I don't believe any of that shit, I don't have faith, I know I aint getting 40 virgins when I die (what are they all 2yrs old? Damn lucky if you can find a legal virgin, they all went the way of the doo doo...if you believe something like this please, get outta the gene pool) Some fat ass telling you about self control...ha. Then the war monguraling christians, everyone's favorite, what fearfull little beings they are. If they don't understand it, well, then it should die, weither it be a person, conscept, idea, etc etc. But damn, they can seriously rake in the dough.

[theicidal maniac]

Dear Septic General

yet another reason why you are wrong:
You claim that deuteronomy 13 is instructions for the government on how to deal with capitol offenders...why then does it instruct you to kill anyone who mentions other gods in your presence even if they are you mother, your father you brother, or your wife or child? Was the government of that time MARRIED? Why would a specific personal commandment like that be directed toward the government?
As for not taking things literally, the verses where it spells out who needs to die are followed by the repeated instruction that you must stone them to death, until they die...then apparently you go in search of others who agree with them and put their cities under the blade and even destroy their HEATHEN cattle!
BRILLIANT!

[fk_all_regs]

All of you who think that their religion or country is better than other's, you all go and eat "s h i t" and go "f u c k" yourselves. Its morons like yourself that brings "s h i t" to this world. This include All kinds of Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Bhais, Mormons, Sikhs and what f..king not.

[General Septem]

so why even bother keeping the old testament if there are things in it that you aren't supposed to follow anymore? That whole "Jesus changed the eternal laws of God" argument means that Gods laws are subject to change...this is what i mean by Muslims taking a page from christians about selective reading. You seriously have to ignore HUGE portions of "God's word" to see your religion as peaceful.

Jesus didn't change anything. He simply said "let the man who is without sin cast the first stone".

So take any passage that says "If X does Y, he shall be stoned to death". But we can't stone anyone to death, because none of us are without sin. That doesn't mean the person who committed the crime shouldn't still be put to death; it means none of us can be the ones to do it. And that means the person can be forgiven, and we all can. That's why Jesus died on the cross. Before then, there was no forgiveness, but when Jesus forgave us, He set an example for us to forgive one another.

So back to the "if X does Y, he shall be stoned to death". (First of all, it was never a citizen's responsibility to do this; it was the Pharisees'.) The "stoned to death" obviously can no longer mean that we should literally stone them to death. What it does mean is that crime Y is a very grave sin.

It's not selective reading; it's reading the message and not so much the exact words.

[theicidal maniac]

Did you seriously just claim that Jesus said "let he who is without sin cast the first stone?" Are you kidding? You shouldn't even be on here talking with us. That story NEVER appeared ANYWHERE in the New Testament before 400 A.D. How do you not know that? How does someone who thinks that the Bible is the literal word of God KNOW NOTHING ABOUT THE BOOK!? It's funny because you know nothing about the history of the book (which is apparent as I read through you old replies to others) and THEN you treat the book as if it were a HISTORY BOOK! Get real man, you gotta know your topic before you can debate it.

[England Expects]

Selective reading is EXACTLY what you're doing.

Who decides where the message is important and not the exact words?

I'm happy for the whole thing to be a metaphor and to accept that Jesus was just some hippy in a skirt.

[theicidal maniac]

Interesting also that you seem to think that the pharisees just always were there to enforce God's will. Do you know when Deuteronomy was written? Nearly 3,000 years ago by a man known only as "J." Well the pharisees don't appear in the Bible until the new Testament, which would have been around one thousand years AFTER these decrees were issued. P.S. I can tell you are just regurgitating something someone else told you, and I know you didn't go back and read to see for yourself that it actually is QUITE a personal commandment, so here;

Deut 13:6 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy father:
9 "But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people."

And in case you didn't get that or if you still think it is meant FIGURATIVELY or as a metaphor, verse 10 says

"And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die..."

[theicidal maniac]

Oh yeah, St John 21:25 "and there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." So then why are the writings of Jesus' followers the only trace of his existence? Where are all the other records of this Jesus? If I were to dedicate MY life to a belief, i would want some hard facts and real proof that I'm not wasting my life.
It's like, "gee I want a vacuum, but not just any vacuum, I want the best. And this brochure from the Ripoffsky & Breaksalot Vacuum Co. says their vacuums are the best. I GUESS THERE'S NO NEED TO READ ANY OTHER COMPANIES BROCHURES OR DO ANY FURTHER RESEARCH!" Man, you Christians got ripped off!

[England Expects]

Theicidal maniac,

The problem is though, the more you show them the truth, the further they bury their heads in the sand.

Christians have been struggling against enlightenment for the past 2000 years.

[General Septem]

Theicidal maniac,

The problem is though, the more you show them the truth, the further they bury their heads in the sand.

Christians have been struggling against enlightenment for the past 2000 years.
No, the problem is, the more we try and explain, the more you bury your heads up your asses.

[General Septem]

you treat the book as if it were a HISTORY BOOK!
The Bible is /not/ a history book, that's exactly my point. People like you are critical of the Bible as if it were supposed to be a history book. It's not.

I love how you dumbass atheists love to claim how certain passages were never in the Bible until "400 AD" or whatever, because it really proves to anyone who isn't a dumbass that you have your head up your ass.

[General Septem]

Who decides where the message is important and not the exact words?
The message is always what's important. Without the message, a sea of words is just a sea of words.

[General Septem]

Oh yeah, St John 21:25 "and there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen." So then why are the writings of Jesus' followers the only trace of his existence? Where are all the other records of this Jesus? If I were to dedicate MY life to a belief, i would want some hard facts and real proof that I'm not wasting my life.
It's like, "gee I want a vacuum, but not just any vacuum, I want the best. And this brochure from the Ripoffsky & Breaksalot Vacuum Co. says their vacuums are the best. I GUESS THERE'S NO NEED TO READ ANY OTHER COMPANIES BROCHURES OR DO ANY FURTHER RESEARCH!" Man, you Christians got ripped off!

You are a complete and total dumbass. Go back and read that passage again. The point was Jesus did so much that it would be impossible to record it all down. Why didn't anyone else write it down then? Well most common people were illiterate, and the Pharisees sure as hell wouldn't keep an account of it because they'd be afraid people would read it and believe.

[General Septem]

Interesting also that you seem to think that the pharisees just always were there to enforce God's will. Do you know when Deuteronomy was written? Nearly 3,000 years ago by a man known only as "J." Well the pharisees don't appear in the Bible until the new Testament, which would have been around one thousand years AFTER these decrees were issued. P.S. I can tell you are just regurgitating something someone else told you, and I know you didn't go back and read to see for yourself that it actually is QUITE a personal commandment, so here;

Deut 13:6 "If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy father:
9 "But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people."

And in case you didn't get that or if you still think it is meant FIGURATIVELY or as a metaphor, verse 10 says

"And thou shalt stone him with stones, that he die..."

"So take any passage that says "If X does Y, he shall be stoned to death". But we can't stone anyone to death, because none of us are without sin. That doesn't mean the person who committed the crime shouldn't still be put to death; it means none of us can be the ones to do it. And that means the person can be forgiven, and we all can. That's why Jesus died on the cross. Before then, there was no forgiveness, but when Jesus forgave us, He set an example for us to forgive one another.

So back to the "if X does Y, he shall be stoned to death". The "stoned to death" obviously can no longer mean that we should literally stone them to death. What it does mean is that crime Y is a very grave sin."

(One single sentence removed because apparently it meant more to you than the other 95% of my post.)

[theicidal maniac]

You said: "No, the problem is, the more we try and explain, the more you bury your heads up your asses"

Sorry to contaminate your belief with FACTS

You said: "I love how you dumbass atheists love to claim how certain passages were never in the Bible until "400 AD" or whatever, because it really proves to anyone who isn't a dumbass that you have your head up your ass"

But you never present any evidence of your claim, and as I stated before you know nothing about the book, so you really have no grounds to tell us anything about it, and honestly, you aren't really SAYING ANYTHING...you have no message. The sum of your argument is confined in one sentence; "nuh-uh, you're not right, I am." And that's a poor argument but typical.

You said: "The message is always what's important. Without the message, a sea of words is just a sea of words."

Whoa don't get all Hemmingway on me now, cuz I know you don't read. But you ignore the fact that a person can find HUNDREDS of Bible passages that convey a message of hate and contempt for mankind and for progress. We'll call that WORLDVIEW X and we'll call your interpretation of the bible WORLDVIEW Y. Let the Bible = W. W can yield Y and it can also yield X, in fact it supports both conclusions, and infinite others too. But if W can yield X AND Y then W CONTAINS the ELEMENTS OF X and of Y. The fact that you can use the bible to justify the inquisition and witch burnings shows you how "PERFECTLY COMPASSIONATE" the message really is.

You said: "One single sentence removed because apparently it meant more to you than the other 95% of my post.)"

Well, it was the only thing RESEMBLING a POINT in your "rambling, incoherent response" (credit to Billy Madison). But actually bub, that's exactly what you are doing. You aren't facing any of my arguments. Instead you just fill a whole page with your own posts so no one will go back and read what INTELLIGENT people have to say...I think you're afraid that people might believe it.
If you want to argue with me you better bring examples and facts not random "what-if" scenarios and regurgitation of someone else's mastications.
Your book is intellectually bankrupt, and apparently it passed it's debt on to you.

With Love
The. Maniac

[General Septem]

Sorry to contaminate your belief with FACTS

You've yet to "prove" these "facts".


[B]But you never present any evidence of your claim,

Nor have you. You've just said things like "That wasn't a part of the Bible until such-and-such a date", with no further explanation to give anyone the impression that you aren't talking out of your ass.


and as I stated before you know nothing about the book, so you really have no grounds to tell us anything about it,

What makes you think I don't know anything about it? I am actually a very knowledgeable Catholic.


Whoa don't get all Hemmingway on me now, cuz I know you don't read.

The joke's on you - I'm a professional novelist.


But you ignore the fact that a person can find HUNDREDS of Bible passages that convey a message of hate and contempt for mankind and for progress.

No, you ignore the fact that your cited examples are either very often misinterpreted or flat out wrong.

Everyone knows the Old Testament was very judgmental anyway, though. That's why people had such a hard time accepting Jesus. They all thought the Messaiah was going to be this big all-powerful king that was going to kill all their enemies once and for all and that the kingdom of God would then reside on Earth.

When Jesus told everyone to love their enemies and bless those who cursed them, they all thought He was blaspheming. It's ironic that you criticize Christianity for the very thing we were noted to be the opposite of. You think we're all judgmental and that we think we're supposed to kill people for doing various things, when in reality it is the exact opposite that made Christianity unique.

Yes, there are assholes that think they're doing the work of God by shooting abortion doctors, but that's all they are - assholes. Yes, there are assholes who go around with signs saying "GOD HATES FAGS", but they're just assholes with their own prejudices who hide behind religion because they're too insecure to admit that it's their own heart the hatred flows from.

Yes, there was a time when even the Catholic Church would put people to death for heresy. It took them a while to realize the truse nature of Jesus's teachings. But you have to understand that all human beings are flawed, and that even though the Church is perfect, her leaders on Earth are human just like us.


We'll call that [FONT="Arial Black"]WORLDVIEW X and we'll call your interpretation of the bible WORLDVIEW Y. Let the Bible = W. W can yield Y and it can also yield X, in fact it supports both conclusions, and infinite others too. But if W can yield X AND Y then W CONTAINS the ELEMENTS OF X and of Y. The fact that you can use the bible to justify the inquisition and witch burnings shows you how "PERFECTLY COMPASSIONATE" the message really is.

"W" only yeilds "X" if you ignore the fact that Jesus said:

"Love thy neighbor as yourself."
"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone."
"Judge not, lest you be judged."

The Bible contains "ELEMENT X" and "ELEMENT Y", in addition to hundreds of other "elements". None of these elements are sufficient by themselves; they are pieces of a puzzle, and there is only one way these puzzle pieces fit together if you want everything to line up.


Just keep on saying things like "read what INTELLIGENT people have to say", because it really proves your point.

[who897]

I've been struggling for enlightenment for 10 mins, can't find the damn bulbs to change the light. Gosh, what ever shall I do, maybe I'll make war w/ my neighbor because they believe there light works. That will show them that my light is better. There is only one light, and that light is mine.

[who897]

Quote


Quote:
Whoa don't get all Hemmingway on me now, cuz I know you don't read.


The joke's on you - I'm a professional novelist.



Just cuz your a professional novelist (does that mean you can't get a real job?) doesn't mean you read a lot.

[General Septem]

I've been struggling for enlightenment for 10 mins, can't find the damn bulbs to change the light. Gosh, what ever shall I do, maybe I'll make war w/ my neighbor because they believe there light works. That will show them that my light is better. There is only one light, and that light is mine.
Yeah, I make a lot of comparisons and metaphors too, but mine make sense.

[General Septem]

Just cuz your a professional novelist (does that mean you can't get a real job?) doesn't mean you read a lot.

It's as real of a job as Hemmingway had. Actually it's the same job. But no, it's not the only job I have.

"Theicidal maniac" was questioning my knowledge of literature. I was assuring him that not only do I understand literature but I understand literature in a way non-writers never will, because I write literature.

[theicidal maniac]

"Theicidal maniac" was questioning my knowledge of literature. I was assuring him that not only do I understand literature but I understand literature in a way non-writers never will, because I write literature.

nothing I've seen of your writing could be classified as such

[General Septem]

nothing I've seen of your writing could be classified as such
That's because I'm not writing a work of fiction; I'm debating on a forum about a controversial issue.

I posted a sample of my writing somewhere around here. Go find it if you're interested.

[theicidal maniac]

Wow Genny, not too good at logic, are you. W YEILDS X AND YEILDS Y...it doesn't EQUAL...it yeilds what it yeilds regardless of what ELSE it yeilds. Get a clue. I'm admitting that your interpretation is one possible interpretation, and one of the more admirable one's, at that. GREAT! I think we would all agree that Islam ACTIVELY PROMOTES violence. All of the things about Islam that would lead you to that conclusion, however, can be said about Christianity. So I guess what I'm saying is that they are BOTH Piece of Shit religions!

[theicidal maniac]

You said "You've yet to "prove" these "facts."

Well the thing about logic is it's impossible to prove that something does not exist. If I may borrow an example from Bertrand Russell, prove to me that there is NOT a small teacup orbiting Jupiter...it IS possible, however, to prove, at least to a reasonable degree, that something DOES exist...the burden of proof here is on you, not me. I'm not the one making outrageous claims about the universe.

You said: "What makes you think I don't know anything about it? I am actually a very knowledgeable Catholic."

A "knowledgeable catholic" is like a "knowledgeable astrologist"...or a "knowledgeable Dungeons and Dragons player" It's all fantasy. And That's fine. It's your choice to live fantasy...until people start using it to justify slaughter.

[who897]

I make a lot of puns,...... so, your point is what again?

[England Expects]

"I am actually a very knowledgeable Catholic"

I love that. The perfect oxymoron.

Does that mean you know exactly how to cover up instances of institutionalized child abuse?

[General Septem]

Well the thing about logic is it's impossible to prove that something does not exist. If I may borrow an example from Bertrand Russell, prove to me that there is NOT a small teacup orbiting Jupiter...it IS possible, however, to prove, at least to a reasonable degree, that something DOES exist...the burden of proof here is on you, not me. I'm not the one making outrageous claims about the universe.
Well I'll give you this, you're great at dodging questions. :)

[General Septem]

Wow Genny, not too good at logic, are you. W YEILDS X AND YEILDS Y...it doesn't EQUAL...it yeilds what it yeilds regardless of what ELSE it yeilds. Get a clue.
You get a clue. I'm practically spelling them out for you after all. X and Y are not two possible outcomes of W, they are puzzle pieces. Like facets of a diamond. How blind and stupid do you have to be to not get what I'm trying to say?

[General Septem]

Does that mean you know exactly how to cover up instances of institutionalized child abuse?

Does being a "knowledgable atheist" mean you know exactly how to make people think all Catholics are pedophiles? And you people claim to be smart.

[monty_k]

I am baffled by the supidness and emptiness of your conversations. GUYS ! GUYS ! We don't even know what you are arguing about anymore. Let's get back to zero and discuss the topic of this forum!

[who897]

I am baffled by the supidness and emptiness of your conversations. GUYS ! GUYS ! We don't even know what you are arguing about anymore. Let's get back to zero and discuss the topic of this forum!


They are debating how x+y=w of course I see this as an equation you can't answer just because I would need to know what x and y, or x and w, or y and w represent. I'm pretty sure it's theological in nature.


Speaking of knowledgable atheist, and pediphiles......... Not quite sure how many atheist pediphiles or even knowledgable atheist pediphiles I've heard of...but I have heard of knowledgable Catholics being pediphiles. I also like to see a German, who looks like he was alive during the Nazi period being Pope. That's cool. We all know how understanding and compationate those folks could be. Your religion would be totally funny, if it wasn't so freaking scary how easly yall turn into zealots (ok not just yours but all of them) Especially since your holy city or capital city what ever the hell it is, is guarded by some fruity looking swiss guards. Swiss Guards, that's bout funny also, the nation who has claimed neutrality in just about every freaking war/conflict, guarding something. Stick w/ the pocket knives and watches.

My name is Bob and I aprove this message

[England Expects]

Ratzinger was enrolled in "Nazi Youth"

Basically, Hitler's boy scouts.

[General Septem]

Speaking of knowledgable atheist, and pediphiles......... Not quite sure how many atheist pediphiles or even knowledgable atheist pediphiles I've heard of...but I have heard of knowledgable Catholics being pediphiles.

Well, with the media the way it is, I guess it's no surprise that you don't know the rate of child sexual abuse is actually a hell of a lot lower among clergy than among non-clergy. Or did you think it was part of their job description?


I also like to see a German, who looks like he was alive during the Nazi period being Pope. That's cool. We all know how understanding and compationate those folks could be.

Just goes to show that true Catholics are not racist pieces of shit, unlike you apparently are. Popes are chosen based on how well of a job they do, not what race they are.


My name is Bob and I aprove this message

Stick to selling Enzyte, Bob. :D

[REPTILE]

Thats the good shit General!



Anyways you athiests are still insisting that priests are pedophiles. Give me a fucking break, dont judge all of them (priests) because of what VERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRY few of them do (like less than 1 percent).
If you have no faith and think we're just some coincidence created by the universe then go ahead. I've had experiences (just like many other Xtians) that convinced me that God is real. I dunno too much about Bible text, all I know is that I follow in Jesus' footsteps (dont hate, steal, kill, etc...) If you see my beliefs as blind faith I think your the ones who are blind. Calling me an idiot who believes we're all equal, and should live in peace, those are the things you should focus on. Instead you athiests argue that God doesn't exist and that Jesus was BullShit, etc... You say that Christianity is stupid. Dont judge me, the general, or anyone of us "believers" as being fakes because of a few assholes who cause violence at abortion clinics and hold up signs saying "God hates Fags". If your not smart enough to realize that those people are hiding behind their religion and using it as an excuse to vent their hatred then your the blind ones.

[who897]

Gen, you took what you wanted outta my post and made a reply. No where did I say that all priest,ministers, yadda yadda yadda, are pediphiles. But documented cases of athiest being ones, I haven't heard of.

As for Racism, hmmm, the only thing I'm raciest against is white boats. But I could have sworn that true Catholics invaded another country, killed a bunch of Jews and Muslims......I'm drawing a blank here, could someone help me out, I think the country was Isreal or something like that. Maybe started with a J. Ohhh the KKK thinks they are true christians. Christians only really teach compasion and peace as long as everyone else around is Christian.


I'm more of a Celebrex man myself.

[General Septem]

Gen, you took what you wanted outta my post and made a reply. No where did I say that all priest,ministers, yadda yadda yadda, are pediphiles. But documented cases of athiest being ones, I haven't heard of.

So you're saying no atheist is a pedophile?


But I could have sworn that true Catholics invaded another country, killed a bunch of Jews and Muslims......

The crusades you mean? Why the hell does everyone think the Crusades were just one big genocidal rampage? Those bastards took our land away and we were just trying to get it back. Why is it that whenever people talk about all the numerous wars America has started, such as the Civil War, the American Revolutionary War, hell, Hiroshima and Nagasaki anyone? Why is it that when people talk about these wars it's all "America? FUCK YEAH!" but when people talk about the Crusades it's all "WTF U KILLED PPL!!!!!11111111111"?


Ohhh the KKK thinks they are true christians.

They thought wrong.

[who897]

Quote:
Originally Posted by who897
Gen, you took what you wanted outta my post and made a reply. No where did I say that all priest,ministers, yadda yadda yadda, are pediphiles. But documented cases of athiest being ones, I haven't heard of.



So you're saying no atheist is a pedophile?

Nope, not saying that, but where is all the documentation proving that there are? There is a thing in the service I serve in (redundancy even), act in a professional manner, you are an embassitor for your country and your service.


Quote:
But I could have sworn that true Catholics invaded another country, killed a bunch of Jews and Muslims......


The crusades you mean? Why the hell does everyone think the Crusades were just one big genocidal rampage? Those bastards took our land away and we were just trying to get it back. Why is it that whenever people talk about all the numerous wars America has started, such as the Civil War, the American Revolutionary War, hell, Hiroshima and Nagasaki anyone? Why is it that when people talk about these wars it's all "America? FUCK YEAH!" but when people talk about the Crusades it's all "WTF U KILLED PPL!!!!!11111111111"?



Yeah, that might be it. See, temper temper, it wasn't your land. If it was wouldn't your god have made sure yall retained it? The Civil War, ok, I guess we did start that one.....it was civil anyway. American Revolution was for freedom from English emerialism and oppression, no taxes w/o represntation bitches. Not quite sure we started that war, pretty sure we said we aint doing the shit they wanted us to do, and they came to play w/ the big dogs, and ran. Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn't a war....Try Pearle Harbor dingleberry. Try Japan and Germany were allies during WWII, you blow up one of our cities we blow up 2 of yours. You blow up one of our buildings, we blow up your country, we is just crazy like that. Christians didn't just kill people, they mascared them, trying to create a genocide. America has never gone looking for a war, it's always been brought to us. Hey, frenchy, go home.




Quote:
Ohhh the KKK thinks they are true christians.


They thought wrong.



How do you know? Are you the final say on these matters? So, are methodist wrong, baptist, mormon, amish, Jahova witnesses, or lutherin wrong......... Gosh dang....I'm good.:cool:

[General Septem]

Nope, not saying that, but where is all the documentation proving that there are? There is a thing in the service I serve in (redundancy even), act in a professional manner, you are an embassitor for your country and your service.

What service is that?

If you're really interested in documentation, feel free to look for yourself.


Yeah, that might be it. See, temper temper, it wasn't your land. If it was wouldn't your god have made sure yall retained it?

God doesn't just take care of every problem we happen to run into. God didn't prevent the Jews from being enslaved either, but He did help them escape. What good would it have done if God prevented the whole thing from happening, when an entire book was written about their escape to freedom? Sure it was a hardship, but that's what strengthens us.


The Civil War, ok, I guess we did start that one.....it was civil anyway.

I do have to admit, there is something civil about an ancient musket.


Hiroshima and Nagasaki wasn't a war....Try Pearle Harbor dingleberry.

Pearl Harbor wasn't a war either.


Try Japan and Germany were allies during WWII, you blow up one of our cities we blow up 2 of yours. You blow up one of our buildings, we blow up your country, we is just crazy like that.

They didn't blow up one of our cities. They divebombed a fleet of ships that were docked. The only deaths were people who had signed up to be in the Navy. People who knew they could have died in the service. In return we killed millions of civilians who did not choose to be Japanese. They did not choose to accept the risk of being bombed. All these people wanted was to live their lives as they were. You Americans were nothing but petty terrorists when you did that. America? Fuck NO.


Christians didn't just kill people, they mascared them, trying to create a genocide.

It's not like the Muslims didn't put up a fight of their own. In fact if anyone got massacred in the Crusades, it was us.


How do you know?

Because their teachings regarding blacks is diametrically opposed to the teachings of Jesus, who said for us to not judge each other and to love thy neighbor.

[who897]

What good is a god that wont do shit for anyone?

Civil as in a countries fighting with in it's self.

Pearl Harbor is the reason why we entered WWII

Apparently you've never been on a miltary base. There is a crap load of civilians there doing work. They didn't sing up for shit, the are just doing a job. I don't see how we are terrorist, they attacked us, we go to war, we tell them what will happen, they continue to fight, and kill our men. We just kicked some serious ass. In doing so, we just kept everyone from having to learn german. As service members those men and women were government property. In destroying government property the Japanesse government needed to repay their debt.


All relgion is fucked up.....which is kinda funny, cuz it's all fake and fucked up and a shitload of people believes in all that BS.

Not quite sure, but how do you know what the teachings of Jesus were? What happens if your neigbor is a man, wouldn't that be gay, and we all know the churches stance on gays.

[England Expects]

"What good is a god that wont do shit for anyone?"

Exactly.

You reckon God loves us, because we are his children?

What kind of parent stands by and watches while his kids murder one another?

[General Septem]

What good is a god that wont do shit for anyone?

I think you need a new monitor or new glasses. Read: God didn't prevent the Jews from being enslaved either, but He did help them escape.

What do you want, for God to just come down on a blazing chariot every time someone's about to commit murder? What good would that do? What would we ever learn? God does not work that way. God works through us. Every time someone does an act of compassion, God is present. That's how God works, because God is compassion and God is love.


Apparently you've never been on a miltary base. There is a crap load of civilians there doing work. They didn't sing up for shit, the are just doing a job.

The fact of the matter is, you don't go into a military base without accepting at least some responsibility that your shit may be ruined by a surprise attack. Particularly when there's already a war going on in the rest of the world. If you want to be safe, then make like a tree and get the fuck out. The citizens of Hiroshima and Nagasaki did not have that choice. Not all of them even had jobs. There were women and children. That was no act of war, it was a cowardly and vulgar display of power, intended to invoke fear.

The Japs' target was our fleet, because they knew that fleet was a formidable threat that might cost them their lives if they didn't attack. We may not have been in the war, but it was a smart thing for them to do, because sooner or later we would have been. The attack gave them a tactical advantage.

The sole purpose of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were to inflict widespread damage upon non-hostile targets for the sole purpose of decreasing morale and inflicting terror so that they'd just surrender. Apparently America didn't think they could win a fair fight.


In destroying government property the Japanesse government needed to repay their debt.

But those civilians were NOT the Japanese government's property, even if they legally might have been. Many of them were probably against the war. Some of them may have even sided with America.


Not quite sure, but how do you know what the teachings of Jesus were? What happens if your neigbor is a man, wouldn't that be gay, and we all know the churches stance on gays.

Well apparently you don't. Love is never wrong. What is wrong is for a man to fuck another man in the ass. Love is not wrong. Ever.

[England Expects]

"What do you want, for God to just come down on a blazing chariot every time someone's about to commit murder?"

I'd do that for my kids if I had the power to.

"What good would that do? What would we ever learn?"

Do you think we have learned? For as long as humans have lived we have fought and murdered each other. It doesn't stop. We dont learn. Are you seriously suggesting God allows such attrocities so that we can learn? If thats the case then he's a fool. If its not the case, he's just impotent to stop it happening, probably because HE DOESNT FUCKING EXIST!!!!!

[General Septem]

I'd do that for my kids if I had the power to.

Yes, but I doubt you'd go to school with your kids to protect them from bullies, or to stop them from buying drugs. It just depends on where you draw the line. God doesn't prevent us from dying, because ultimately it's up to us to choose whether we live or die, nobody can choose that for us. Sure, our physical bodies will die sooner or later, but that's inevitable. Whether we die of old age, accidents, or murder. Our bodies will all eventually grow old, die, and rot in the ground. It's a fact of life as well as a punishment for our original sin.

God understands that the hatred people have for each other is horrible, but He does everything in His power to change people's hearts. But how can you make someone live a life of love if you can't interfere with free will? Surely God has the power to interfere with free will, but He never will. But if you're lying in the middle of the street with a broken ankle, in an unknown and hostile world, and one person shows you compassion and helps you, that's God. And just maybe, seeing God will change your heart.

When someone shows love and compassion, God flows through them. That is how God works, not by appearing out of the sky every time something bad is about to happen, like some kind of Superman.

[England Expects]

"I doubt you'd go to school with your kids to protect them from bullies, or to stop them from buying drugs"

He doesn't need to "go" anywhere if he's omni-present.

"ultimately it's up to us to choose whether we live or die, nobody can choose that for us. Sure, our physical bodies will die sooner or later, but that's inevitable. Whether we die of old age, accidents, or murder. Our bodies will all eventually grow old, die, and rot in the ground. It's a fact of life as well as a punishment for our original sin."

Did those amish kids last week "chose" to die? What sin were they being punished for? If they have commited a sin, was the bastard that shot them doing God's work?

"Surely God has the power to interfere with free will, but He never will."

You're right. Because if he exists, he doesnt give a fuck.

[General Septem]

He doesn't need to "go" anywhere if he's omni-present.

God is present wherever love and compassion are present. We're the ones who bring God's presence into the world. God is not present where love and compassion are not present, because people do not let Him be present. They have chosen to forsake love and compassion in return for greedyness, selfishness, and hatred.

As far as apparating out of nowhere and preventing every little thing from happening, well I don't know if you like Star Trek at all, but if you do, perhaps you've heard of the Prime Directive.


Did those amish kids last week "chose" to die?

If they went to Heaven, they're not dead. If they did not, it is because they chose to be seaparated from God. Nobody made that decision but them.


What sin were they being punished for?

The sin of merely being human. Something we all eventually atone for, as I said. But that atonement also symbolizes a great deal of freedom - freedom from sin, as well as from our frail bodies.

We're all sinners, even Mother Theresa. If we weren't, Jesus would not have had to die for us on the cross. The point is that our sins can be forgiven. This life on Earth doesn't mean much when compared with all eternity anyway.

It doesn't mean they deserved what happened to them, of course.


If they have commited a sin, was the bastard that shot them doing God's work?

No, of course not.


You're right. Because if he exists, he doesnt give a fuck.

Obviously you didn't read, or only read what you felt like reading.

[England Expects]

It's a sin to be human? Surely that cant be a sin?

How can it be a sin to be created by God?

I didn't chose to be human. How can it be a sin to be so? Why should anyone be sorry for existing as a human being?

Sounds like brainwashed nonsense to me

[England Expects]

"This life on Earth doesn't mean much when compared with all eternity anyway"

You sound like a Jihadist.

[General Septem]

It's a sin to be human? Surely that cant be a sin?

How can it be a sin to be created by God?

I didn't chose to be human. How can it be a sin to be so? Why should anyone be sorry for existing as a human being?

Sounds like brainwashed nonsense to me
It's not inherantly a sin to be human, but humans are sinful by nature. We are all born with original sin. It is impossible for any human to be without sin except by the grace of God.

Why does God not grant this gace you ask? He did. When man was created, he was created without sin, but by choosing to "eat the fuit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil", Adam and Eve chose to be sinful beings. That's what "knowing evil" means.

God will grant this grace to all who join Him in the eternal banquet. For the mean time, we are stuck in these frail, weak, sinful bodies. That doesn't mean our life here on Earth is a bad thing. Regardless of how hard it is to walk in right paths without stumbling, I am happy to be alive. But we are all plagued with addictions and temptations and whatnot.

[General Septem]

"This life on Earth doesn't mean much when compared with all eternity anyway"

You sound like a Jihadist.
Depends on what exactly you mean by "jihadist". It is wrong to mass murder people to push an agenda, but I do believe a just war can take place. In order for it to be just there has to be sufficient reason, and every measure must be taken to prevent collateral damage and excessive deaths.

[England Expects]

So to re-cap.

We're all being punished because Eve (a woman who was made from the rib of a man) ate an apple because a talking snake told her to.

Now it makes sense.

How could I be so foolish as to question it?:D

[who897]

With Fundamentalists having been wrong on so many levels and issues, why should anyone trust that they're right on their biggest issue, that of Bible\god's existence?


Fundies are wrong regarding gays.
Fundies are wrong regarding evolution.
Fundies are wrong regarding abortion.
Fundies are wrong regarding premarital sex.
Fundies are wrong regarding stem cell research.
Fundies are even usually wrong about their own Bible.
Fundies are wrong about religion making people better.
Fundies were wrong about Priests not raping little boys.
Fundies were wrong when they said we live on a flat earth.
Fundies are wrong about Janet Jackson's boob being harmful.
Fundies were wrong when they used to burn women alive for being "witches".
Fundies were also wrong when they denied pain killers to women having babies.
Fundies were wrong when they used to say the sun and the entire universe circle around the earth.


Learn From History!!!
Be Smart, Don't Start, Just Say No

[General Septem]

So to re-cap.

We're all being punished because Eve (a woman who was made from the rib of a man) ate an apple because a talking snake told her to.

Now it makes sense.

How could I be so foolish as to question it?:D
That sums it up about as accurately as saying America was founded by a couple of people who got drunk at a tea party and pissed off England because the Queen told them to.

You're obviously not a writer. Or a reader apparently. Maybe you're not that inept, maybe you've just got your head too far up your ass. That's just an observation, not an insult.

Of course since God condemned the serpent to crawl on the ground and eat dust after Adam and Eve ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, we can only assume the serpent looked completely different before then.

I know this is probably futile since you're inevitably not going to listen, but let's look at this in a literary sense.

Adam and Eve, whose names mean "Man" and "Living One", respectively, eat the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.

"Fruit" is also a figurative term for the end result of some kind of labor and/or effort. "To know" can likewise be a figurative term meaning to take part in something, or to experience it firsthand.

Accepting the "knowledge" of good and evil really means to become good and evil. The "fruit" or end result of knowing good and evil is... well, look around you. Look in the mirror. Adam and Eve thought knowing good and evil would make their lives more interesting, more profitable, something. I guess you could say it's interesting, but it's only conflict and revolution and whatnot that makes it so. But it isn't Paradise by a long shot.

It wasn't just that "Eve ate an apple". Expand your mind for once.

So now to your bit about us all being punished for something our pneumonoultramicroscopicsilicovolcanoconioically, floccinaucinihilipilificastically, extraordinarily great great grandfather did. It's not just that he did something and now we're all being punished for it. What Adam did was representative of all mankind. I'm sure you won't deny that we all sin. We are, in fact, sinful by nature. God did tell Adam and Eve "you will die" if they ate the fruit. And they did die.

But anyway, before I start rambling. My point is that our bodies will eventually decay, die, and decay some more, and this is our punishment for our sinful nature. But death is not the end, it's the begining.

How did we get on this, anyway?

[General Septem]

Fundies are wrong regarding gays.
Prove it.

Fundies are wrong regarding evolution.
Prove it.

Fundies are wrong regarding abortion.
Prove it.

Fundies are wrong regarding premarital sex.
Prove it.

Fundies are wrong regarding stem cell research.
Prove it.

Fundies are even usually wrong about their own Bible.
In what way?

Fundies are wrong about religion making people better.
Yes, living a life of unconditional love and compassion never did anything for anyone.

Fundies were wrong about Priests not raping little boys.
Priests don't rape little boys, people rape little boys, and some of these people also happen to be Priests.

Fundies were wrong when they said we live on a flat earth.
So were the Greeks.

Fundies are wrong about Janet Jackson's boob being harmful.
There's nothing wrong with the female body, but displaying the boob in a sexual context is just one of the many things that essentially serve to reduce women to the level of sex toys. Also, by contributing to the whole culture of the usage of liberal and often perverse sexual practices, it also promotes things like pornography which are certainly harmful.

Fundies were wrong when they used to burn women alive for being "witches".
Not an act of Christianity but an act of hatred.

Fundies were also wrong when they denied pain killers to women having babies.
I've never heard of that.

Fundies were wrong when they used to say the sun and the entire universe circle around the earth.
Again, so were the Greeks.

[who897]

I don't have to prove anything, it already has been. So, we can equat then that christians and greeks are the same. Jesus was gay...well, bi anyways, acorrding to yer bible. Can you prove intelectual design, don't think so but there is a lot more evidence of evolution. Actually, the bible, has a lot of fucked up shit in there, ex: something about dude wanted to bury his father, jesus said, fuck him, let the dead bury the dead, come with me and have anal sex w/ me...or something close to it. Yes, Hatred, that's what the witch trials were all about....duh. But where did that hatred stem from? The egyptians? Nope, god fearin christians who thought someone was possed by the debil bobby boucher.

Praise The Flying Spegetti Monster.

[General Septem]

I don't have to prove anything, it already has been. So, we can equat then that christians and greeks are the same. Jesus was gay...well, bi anyways, acorrding to yer bible.
Where does it say that?


But where did that hatred stem from? The egyptians? Nope, god fearin christians who thought someone was possed by the debil bobby boucher.
The hatred came from the prosecutor's own hearts, not Christianity.

[who897]

You said it.


Their own hearts, you mean, their hearts that their god controled...and their god just happened to be a christian god.


The world would be a much better place without fancifull religion....one less arguement to have.

[General Septem]

Their own hearts, you mean, their hearts that their god controled...and their god just happened to be a christian god.

No, they were guided by their own hatred and using religion as a shield.

[normlman]

The problem's with the religous world's interpretation of religion and GOD is that they try to personify GOD. We are made in gods image? GOD is the wind the Earth, the physical matter that inhabit's the Earth. GOD is all, GOD is every living thing. In the sense of being 'ALIVE', we exist with GOD always present, and in GODs image.
on the afterlife:
no comment.

~reincarnation.
explanatory for all you bleeding heart Anti-Abortion advocates.

[who897]

Nope it was their god that controlled them.


By being an image of god, are we not gods ourselves? I said it before, it's around here somewhere.

[General Septem]

Nope it was their god that controlled them.

Seeing as how God is love and compasison, that's impossible. Unless they were worshiping a false God, of course.

[freakazoid]

Seeing as how God is love and compasison, that's impossible. Unless they were worshiping a false God, of course.

They are worshiping a false god based upon a pagan "god" of fertility. Sad.

[General Septem]

They are worshiping a false god based upon a pagan "god" of fertility. Sad.
I think he was referring to the Salem witch trials, actually.

[who897]

How can their be a false god, when according to yall folk there is only one god. And your god said that you can not worship a false god.

[General Septem]

How can their be a false god, when according to yall folk there is only one god. And your god said that you can not worship a false god.

Exactly, they were worshiping a God that does not exist. Hence a false God. Just because you throw a bunch of ideas together and make up some kind of "supreme being" and call it God, does not mean it is God.

[who897]

You just did.

[General Septem]

You just did.

Are you trying to be a pain in the ass?

[who897]

Christianinty and all the other religions, and all their followers have been a pain in my ass for all my life. With their fake bullshit about their being a god, love thy neigbor, go to church, don't bath, don't eat, only eat certain shit, the only good thing religion is for, is getting outta work for holidays. Other then that all of them are crocks of shit. Give me a bible, I'll burn it, Give me the Karan, I'll burn it, give me anything religious, I will desicrate it, and you know what will happen. Nothing, except a bunch of religious idiots getting mad. So, I wave my balls in the face of religion, because my balls are real, your religions are not.

[General Septem]

Christianinty and all the other religions, and all their followers have been a pain in my ass for all my life. With their fake bullshit about their being a god, love thy neigbor, go to church, don't bath, don't eat, only eat certain shit, the only good thing religion is for, is getting outta work for holidays. Other then that all of them are crocks of shit.

You don't love your neighbor then? Do you love anyone? You're an asshole.

[who897]

I've been called worse, so, yeah, I guess I am an asshole. No I don't love my neighbor, I don't know who the hell those people are, and one there is no way I am gonna screw one of them, they aren't hot. Do I love anyone.....good question, I think I am in love w/ someone or some people, but by being in, and not actually loving something or someone is irrelevent. I am very fond of my family, as for love, you know what, I'm gonna just say no to that one, there are way too many philosophical things in my head to dispute anything I say right now. By philosophical I mean, deep thoughts, and Captian Morgan and Coke-a-Cola.


I do love my XR650L though.....but that's material and not really part of the subject.

[who897]

By calling me an asshole, I now proclaim you a Cum Pig. Quid Pro Quo Mr. Powers.

[General Septem]

I've been called worse, so, yeah, I guess I am an asshole. No I don't love my neighbor, I don't know who the hell those people are, and one there is no way I am gonna screw one of them, they aren't hot. Do I love anyone.....good question, I think I am in love w/ someone or some people, but by being in, and not actually loving something or someone is irrelevent. I am very fond of my family, as for love, you know what, I'm gonna just say no to that one, there are way too many philosophical things in my head to dispute anything I say right now. By philosophical I mean, deep thoughts, and Captian Morgan and Coke-a-Cola.


I do love my XR650L though.....but that's material and not really part of the subject.
See, I love everyone including even you to an extent. Love doesn't mean sex, I'm not talking about that kind of love. And you're in the Coast Guard so you must have some kind of love for at least some portion of the world.

I'm betting there's at least some part of the world you don't like about it, or think is fucked up. Think of how much different the world would be if everyone loved each other.

Everyone in Italy hugs each other, even when they hardly know each other. You never hear of some damn school shooting in Italy, have you?

[who897]

That's not to say they don't happen in Italy. I'm sure it's harder to get guns in Italy also.


Nope, love is reserved for material things. Or actions, like I'd love screw the shit outta her.

Do you know how many schools I've shot up? None.
Do you know how religious I am? I'm not at all.
I think I may see a connection. Then again, it has nothing to do w/ religion actually being a bad thing, esp for all the violence being carried out for it.

[General Septem]

That's not to say they don't happen in Italy. I'm sure it's harder to get guns in Italy also.

Have you ever heard of the Sicilian mafia?


Nope, love is reserved for material things. Or actions, like I'd love screw the shit outta her.

Yet you feel you can sit there and call me selfish.


Do you know how many schools I've shot up? None.
Do you know how religious I am? I'm not at all.
I think I may see a connection. Then again, it has nothing to do w/ religion actually being a bad thing, esp for all the violence being carried out for it.

Do you know how many schools I've shot up? None.
Do you know how religious I am? Very.
There's only a connection if your religion preaches hatred. Mine teaches love. I don't shoot people I love, and I love everyone.

[who897]

[Quote] Have you ever heard of the Sicilian mafia?


I am a Daigo from NJ, you tell me. Except the mafia, didn't really go to schools to shoot them up.

[Quote] Yet you feel you can sit there and call me selfish.


Takes one to know one right? Also, never said I wasn't.


[Quote] Do you know how many schools I've shot up? None.
Do you know how religious I am? Very.
There's only a connection if your religion preaches hatred. Mine teaches love. I don't shoot people I love, and I love everyone.



I've never seen a religion "preach" violence. I have seen relgious violence. Just because someone says good things, doesn't mean they are inherently good themselves.
I don't shoot people unless they break into my home while I'm there, or are shooting at me.

[who897]

Everytime you see a rainbow, God is having Gay sex.

[General Septem]

Everytime you see a rainbow, God is having Gay sex.
Someone who understands God as well as you apparently do should certainly not be saying anything as if you know anything about Him, because you know entirely nothing.

Actually the rainbow was never a sign of homosexuality until within the past hundred years or so. Before then it was widely considered a Christian symbol.

[General Septem]

I am a Daigo from NJ, you tell me. Except the mafia, didn't really go to schools to shoot them up.

No, I was referring to guns being illegal in Italy. It doesn't really matter anyway, though, guns are all but illegal here and that hasn't stopped anyone.


Takes one to know one right? Also, never said I wasn't.

Yes, but the point is that I'm not. I mean I may be to an extent, but I do care about my fellow human being.


I've never seen a religion "preach" violence. I have seen relgious violence. Just because someone says good things, doesn't mean they are inherently good themselves.

Then they don't practice what they preach. Other religions may not preach violence but they do preach hatred. I don't know if you can consider the KKK a religion (albeit a false one) but they actually did preach violence. No true Catholic would ever commit violence except in self-defense or in defense of the innocent.

[Ape-Shit]

Everytime you see a rainbow, God is having Gay sex.

Beelzebub has gota love that one!:D

[who897]

Did you just say the rainbow was a christian symbol? See, I told you christianity is based on a gay god.

KKK isn't a religion, it is a group. They are just deeply religious folk.


For someone who understands god as much as I do? Hmm where will I go with this one....Well, I understand god completely. How could you not? God is nothing. God is a word with 3 letters G-O-D. God is fake. God is something someone came up with to fool others. I understand god is nothing, just like everyone else understands if you have 10 bucks and then buy a 10 dollar meal, you still owe your waitress/waiter 15% tip. God in that sense is a vacuum sucking up everything because people put more into it than is actually there and end up in debt or with a pissed off waitress/waiter.


Anyone ever notice that bible in hotels, I always throw it in the toilet and piss on it.

[General Septem]

Did you just say the rainbow was a christian symbol? See, I told you christianity is based on a gay god.

Before it was hijacked by the gays, I said. I shouldn't be all surprised you can't read, though.


For someone who understands god as much as I do? Hmm where will I go with this one....Well, I understand god completely. How could you not? God is nothing. God is a word with 3 letters G-O-D. God is fake. God is something someone came up with to fool others.

See? Exactly what I'm talking about.

[who897]

What are you talking about? Actually you know what, I don't want to know, because your relgion is offensive.

[REPTILE]

Ok, so people like me and the General are offensive by your standards, what would that make you? Someone who continously talks shit about us and says that we're all fakes. Do I sometimes curse, have bad thoughts, etc.. yes. No one said that these things will never happen or that they must NEVER happen, just that we should realize when they happen and try to better ourselves. The difference between me and you is that I continously improve myself and decrease the amount of instances where I do these things while you sit there and talk crap about people like me and the General. If you believe Gods fake, then ok. Just mark my words: someday, something big is gonna happen, that day you cannot escape. I think you catch my drift

[who897]

Some fat chick is gonna try and eat me while I'm stuck in a small room with locked doors? What a weird drift.

I am anti religious, I think relgion is a cancer to our society, slowly sucking the life out of us. Not so much fake as you are misled, who ever you surrounded yourself with sure did a great mind control thing w/ yall.

Why is it if a child is not taught religion then they themselves are not religious? Wouldn't there be some kinda cosmic force while they were still young letting them know something else was out there? It's all just a heaping pile of Bull spunk.

[General Septem]

I am anti religious, I think relgion is a cancer to our society, slowly sucking the life out of us.

Ironic that this comes from someone who doesn't love anyone.

[who897]

Irony has nothing to do with my patriotism. I care for this country. I will defend it with my last breathe, however vulger you may find it. I say then let the enemies of this great union smell my bad breathe.

[General Septem]

Irony has nothing to do with my patriotism. I care for this country. I will defend it with my last breathe, however vulger you may find it. I say then let the enemies of this great union smell my bad breathe.
This has nothing to do with what I said. It's ironic that you believe religion is a cancer to our society when you'r the one who doesn't love anyone. You're the cancer.

[freakazoid]

This has nothing to do with what I said. It's ironic that you believe religion is a cancer to our society when you'r the one who doesn't love anyone. You're the cancer.

I find it ironic that people who call religion "a cancer to our society" will embrace various philosophies not understanding that they are as “religious” as anyone. Case in point - communism, which represents itself as "atheist," which in itself is a religion, the "religion of atheism," a religion that has murdered millions of innocent people for various reasons such as the religion of Maxrism. Hmmmm, I agree, religion can be a cancer on society.

** Fote note: Marx, who coined the phrase “religion is the opium of the people” didn’t seem to realize that his religion (later named communism) was a very strong opium.

[who897]

I fail to see how religion and a form of government can be the same. Relgion in itself is all about faith. Faith in a supreme being. A governement is a group of people running a country and the manner in which they run it.


As for you thinking that has nothing to do with your reply, I don't know how you couldn't connect the dots on that one.

[General Septem]

I fail to see how religion and a form of government can be the same. Relgion in itself is all about faith. Faith in a supreme being. A governement is a group of people running a country and the manner in which they run it.

Have you ever talked to a Communist?

Even if Communism isn't a religion, though, atheism is.

[who897]

I feel atheism is a lack of relgion, I will have to look it up to be sure. As for me I am against religion, and I am not religious. I have no faith, and I do not believe in a supreme being.


No, I have not talked to a communist. (But we just got a guy on one of the boats that was borne in China so I will have a sit down with that feller about his religion then I will proceed to inform you of how that went) We did go over it though in high school....10yrs back or so, but I fail to see how communism directly ties into a religious belief....if you look at China, they are just recently letting religion into their country, but it is strictly regulated. Which "I" would like to believe that is for the protection of thier people from the evils that religion can and eventually will bring.

[England Expects]

Over this side of the Atlantic, religion is defined as:

1. The belief in a superhuman controlling power, in a personal God or gods entitled to obedience and worship.

2. The expression of this in worship.

3. A particular system of faith and worship.

Therefore atheism is not a religion, because atheists do not worship.

Maybe at a stretch you could define communism as a religion, but at least the communists KNOW that Karl Marx existed.

[General Septem]

1. The belief in a superhuman controlling power, in a personal God or gods entitled to obedience and worship.

2. The expression of this in worship.

3. A particular system of faith and worship.

Therefore atheism is not a religion, because atheists do not worship.

I define religion as any system of beliefs regarding the existence or lack thereof of a supreme being. Since atheists believe there is no God, it is a religion. It could also be said that it is any system of beliefs that one lives by, which would describe communism because they don't have a "supreme being" but they believe in communism.

There is really two types of atheism though. There's religious atheism and agnostic atheism. The religious atheists believe there is no God, whereas agnostic atheists don't believe there is a God, and yes there's a difference.

The difference between agnostic atheists and agnostics on the other hand is not so clear. I think it's more a matter of degree.

[England Expects]

There is a difference between believing God does not exist and believing there is no god?

Utter rubbish.

I do not live my life by my atheism. My atheism does not define me. Atheism is not my religion.

[General Septem]

There is a difference between believing God does not exist and believing there is no god?

Apparently you cannot read.

There's a difference between not believing in God and believing God does not exist. Neither one is good but the latter is a religion because you do believe God does not exist, rather than simply not believing.

[England Expects]

Well I dont believe in god, and I dont believe god exists.

So what does that make me? (apart from Satan fodder):D

By that way of thinking, are there religious Christians and agnostic Christians?

[General Septem]

Well I dont believe in god, and I dont believe god exists.

So what does that make me? (apart from Satan fodder):D

By that way of thinking, are there religious Christians and agnostic Christians?

You may say that but I get the impression you're set in your beliefs, and that means it's not a matter of not believing but a matter of believing the opposite. All I'm saying is atheism is a religion. Living in society it's impossible for it not to be, because you have to know what you believe.

I've never heard of anyone not beliving God doesn't exist but I guess it's possible. Perhaps that might describe Christians that aren't very committed to their beliefs, or probably anything else for that matter.

[England Expects]

I dont think belief equates to religion.

Much earlier in this thread, someone said that its impossible to be athiest; I think its impossible to be agnostic. Everyone in the pit of their stomach either believes there is or isnt a god.

[General Septem]

I dont think belief equates to religion.

Much earlier in this thread, someone said that its impossible to be athiest; I think its impossible to be agnostic. Everyone in the pit of their stomach either believes there is or isnt a god.
Well, I think you believe in some parts of God but just don't realize they are faces of God. Do you believe in love? Compassion? Charity? Justice?

[death2chikins]

I dont think belief equates to religion.

Much earlier in this thread, someone said that its impossible to be athiest; I think its impossible to be agnostic. Everyone in the pit of their stomach either believes there is or isnt a god.

This is not entirely true. There is a line of thinking that God does exist he just doesn't care about humans. This i believe is an agnostic. Asfar as being athiest it depends on how you define God. Everyone believes in something Christians believe in the trinty God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. Atheist believe only in what they precieve to be important. Science for instant can be a form of religion so can economics or even self-gratification. In these cases God is replaced with science, money, or yourself. Belief in something anything is an unescapable part of being human it is only a matter in what one wants to believe in. Once you have chosen where to put your belief then that thing becomes your religion.

Don't make the mistake in thinking that believing in God is illogical or even idiotic as i have heard people mention. Faith in God is no different than haveing faith in a person. Your mate for instance. You have faith that they whould not do anything to harm you. Given human kinds track record with trust whould this not seem illogical or idiotic. The only real difference is that i know my God has my best interest at heart but you can only trust that your chosen mate does. I prefer knowledge to chance.

[England Expects]

Of course I believe in those things General, I just dont believe they are given to us by a supernatural being, who created the world and everything in it.

[General Septem]

Of course I believe in those things General, I just dont believe they are given to us by a supernatural being, who created the world and everything in it.
But therein lies my point. They were not merely given to us by God. They are God.

[England Expects]

You say that as a statement of fact. Nobody is qualified to do so.

You believe they are. I believe not.

[death2chikins]

But therein lies my point. They were not merely given to us by God. They are God.

These things are of god yes but they are not god. they a merely traits of god. Love compassion justice and charity are creations not the creator.

[General Septem]

These things are of god yes but they are not god. they a merely traits of god. Love compassion justice and charity are creations not the creator.
They are not God in His entirety but they are one with God, not merely creations. If someone is lying in the street, and someone comes to help him, where exactly is God in this situation? Is He standing on the sidelines, moving things around so that the person lying in the street is found? Possibly, but God is also the love that flows from the man that saves the man as well. Love really isn't a creation or a creator, but a limb of God himself.

[death2chikins]

Love is a choice though and cannot be simply a part of anything. God like people chooses to love. If love is truly a part of him then whouldn't it stand to reason that he had no option other than to love man and if this is true than it in itself disproves God does it not. Don't get me wrong i am not doubting him just saying if God has no free will if he can not choose to love but is forced to love because he is love than God cannot be God. I believe love like anything else is an action not an emotion and like all action requires thought. To truly think requires free will and if god is anything then shouldn't he be free will. Take the same problem man lies in the street what if the other man doesn't stop but keeps walking is God not equally present here. God does love he can also hate, he is compassionate but he is also jealous and vengeful. God is more complex than man and man is pretty complicated is he not?

[General Septem]

Love is a choice though and cannot be simply a part of anything. God like people chooses to love. If love is truly a part of him then whouldn't it stand to reason that he had no option other than to love man and if this is true than it in itself disproves God does it not. Don't get me wrong i am not doubting him just saying if God has no free will if he can not choose to love but is forced to love because he is love than God cannot be God. I believe love like anything else is an action not an emotion and like all action requires thought. To truly think requires free will and if god is anything then shouldn't he be free will. Take the same problem man lies in the street what if the other man doesn't stop but keeps walking is God not equally present here. God does love he can also hate, he is compassionate but he is also jealous and vengeful. God is more complex than man and man is pretty complicated is he not?
Perhaps it's because the extent of God's love is so great that He became love. God is both capable and incapable of hate. It is so much against His nature that it can never happen.

[death2chikins]

Perhaps it's because the extent of God's love is so great that He became love. God is both capable and incapable of hate. It is so much against His nature that it can never happen.

I'm not saying your wrong just haveing a hard time wrapping my head around the idea. I do know there is a defient point where God's compassion ends and if this is so then is there not also a point where his love must end as well. Compassion is a product of love so there must be a point where love ends sense there is a point where his compassion does. And i do firmly believe that God can hate simply because if he cannot hate then how can he love. You know the whole yin yang thing how can one exist without the other?

[General Septem]

I'm not saying your wrong just haveing a hard time wrapping my head around the idea. I do know there is a defient point where God's compassion ends and if this is so then is there not also a point where his love must end as well. Compassion is a product of love so there must be a point where love ends sense there is a point where his compassion does. And i do firmly believe that God can hate simply because if he cannot hate then how can he love. You know the whole yin yang thing how can one exist without the other?
What makes you think God's compassion ends? Because it doesn't. I don't believe hate has to exist in order for love to exist. That doesn't even make sense to me. Perhaps there are righteous qualities that can be mistaken for hatred, but they're still very different.

[death2chikins]

What makes you think God's compassion ends? Because it doesn't. I don't believe hate has to exist in order for love to exist. That doesn't even make sense to me. Perhaps there are righteous qualities that can be mistaken for hatred, but they're still very different.

Several things make me believe God's compassion has limits. For one the great flood. only people God found worthy for compassion was Noah and his family. Soddum and Gamorah both cities found wanting again both cities destroyed by fire with only Lot and his family being shown compassion. Don't get me wrong i am not saying it was not just but that is not the same as compassion. Hate is the opposite of love but they are both passion. If you know how to do one then you can do the other. without darkness what is light? I do believe that God is capable of hating not because i believe he does but from the simple fact that all things come from him so if he created love he also created hate and if he created it he can use it. the hatred of sin is not sin.

[General Septem]

Several things make me believe God's compassion has limits. For one the great flood. only people God found worthy for compassion was Noah and his family. Soddum and Gamorah both cities found wanting again both cities destroyed by fire with only Lot and his family being shown compassion. Don't get me wrong i am not saying it was not just but that is not the same as compassion. Hate is the opposite of love but they are both passion. If you know how to do one then you can do the other. without darkness what is light? I do believe that God is capable of hating not because i believe he does but from the simple fact that all things come from him so if he created love he also created hate and if he created it he can use it. the hatred of sin is not sin.
Perhaps Sodom and Guemorrah and the Great Flood were signs of God's compassion for the rest of the world. They were so far gone that they couldn't be helped. In addition these events allowed the world to know that God is powerful.

I don't think hate exists. I think it is merely the abscence of love and compassion. Selfishness is the lack of love for anyone other than yourself. And they are all interconnected as well. Love (romantic love I mean) and lust are two sides of the same coin as well, only lust is selfish and love is selfless.

[death2chikins]

Perhaps Sodom and Guemorrah and the Great Flood were signs of God's compassion for the rest of the world. They were so far gone that they couldn't be helped. In addition these events allowed the world to know that God is powerful.

Perhaps it was. I am not so arrogant to think I know the mind of God. I can only keep the consul of my own and interept what i read and hear for myself. But compassion for one group by not showing compassion to another seems alil to off the mark to me. remove noah and lot from the stories and you will be left with groups that angered God with there sin and thus paid the price. I believe God's compassion allowed them to reach that point by allowing them the chance to repent but none did they only got worse to the point that it could no longer be ignored. Through compassion he saved Noah and Lot but not the rest. Their deaths seems like punshment to me not compassion.


I don't think hate exists. I think it is merely the abscence of love and compassion. Selfishness is the lack of love for anyone other than yourself. And they are all interconnected as well. Love (romantic love I mean) and lust are two sides of the same coin as well, only lust is selfish and love is selfless.

Hate does exist perhaps it is the lack of love and compassion but a rose by any other name and all that. I agree about the two sides of the coin. And perhaps I am overreaching but i do not think lust is the opposite of love. Love is love romantic or otherwise. There is no difference from the love you hold for your mother and the love you hold for your mate only the amount of love may change but not love itself. Lust is a desire not a passion. They are different aleast in my way of thinking anyhow.

[General Septem]

Hate does exist perhaps it is the lack of love and compassion but a rose by any other name and all that. I agree about the two sides of the coin. And perhaps I am overreaching but i do not think lust is the opposite of love. Love is love romantic or otherwise. There is no difference from the love you hold for your mother and the love you hold for your mate only the amount of love may change but not love itself. Lust is a desire not a passion. They are different aleast in my way of thinking anyhow.
Well we all have different ways of thinking, and that's fine. I'm sure God created each of us to learn to know Him differently and to see life differently and in a unique way. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

[death2chikins]

Well we all have different ways of thinking, and that's fine. I'm sure God created each of us to learn to know Him differently and to see life differently and in a unique way. I'm just sharing my thoughts.

I firmly believe that to be true. It is through debate we grow in our understanding of man and God. Without sharing our thoughts how whould we ever know what each other is thinking and perhaps through this process we ourselves may change our own way. For that thanx.

[who897]

Someone's got a screwy definition of religion. I guess it fits them so they can label eveyone just as religious as themselves. The statement "I believe I gotta pee" does not make me religious because I have a belief. Relgion is a specific belief and faith in a supreme being. The absents of religion is the specific disbelief and absense of faith in a supreme being. Because of this someone who does not believe in or have faith in a "god" is not religious. Talk about a weird tangent.

[death2chikins]

Someone's got a screwy definition of religion. I guess it fits them so they can label eveyone just as religious as themselves. The statement "I believe I gotta pee" does not make me religious because I have a belief. Relgion is a specific belief and faith in a supreme being. The absents of religion is the specific disbelief and absense of faith in a supreme being. Because of this someone who does not believe in or have faith in a "god" is not religious. Talk about a weird tangent.

1. "i believe i gotta pee" is not the same as i believe in god. besides why whould someone make such a statement anyway. Do they not know the signs their body gives them to tell them they have to pee?

2. worship of a god does not have to be the worship of a supreme being. people do worship money some people spend their entire life chasing the dollar always looking to get more. people do worship science always trying to explain things they can never explain. Filling in gaps in their truth with speculation and theories. and some people do worship them selves believing that they and only they control their fate. that noone or nothing is above them or is worthy of their devotion.

these is not a warped sense of relgion and i am not trying to paint everyone with the same relgious brush but everyone must believe in something and if not God then something that takes the place of him.

[General Septem]

Someone's got a screwy definition of religion. I guess it fits them so they can label eveyone just as religious as themselves. The statement "I believe I gotta pee" does not make me religious because I have a belief. Relgion is a specific belief and faith in a supreme being. The absents of religion is the specific disbelief and absense of faith in a supreme being. Because of this someone who does not believe in or have faith in a "god" is not religious. Talk about a weird tangent.
Let me put it this way. Whether or not you believe in God, you are definitiely religious about it. Otherwise you wouldn't bother having this conversation, you'd just ignore it.

[who897]

I'm definatly not religious, I am adiment (spelling not my fortay) about religon being a terrible thing.

[ajk]

Then why even get involved in this conversation?

[General Septem]

I'm definatly not religious, I am adiment (spelling not my fortay) about religon being a terrible thing.
It's forte, and by saying all religion is bad you're making a very big blanket statement.

[who897]

I will have to look up forte later in the mean time, yes it is a big blanket statement, if I had a net to catch all relgion in all it's forms the damn thing would have to be pretty fricken small woven cuz there is so many. To get rid of the disease we must be thurough, and swift, or else some reminants of it will remain and replicate in an attempt to destroy society.

[ajk]

I beg to differ, it doesn't destory society. If anything it's an attempt to make society better. Right everything is upside down in society. It's incredibly screwed up, and we only have ourselves to blame for it. When you change the rules, this is what you get.

[who897]

That's right you only have yourselves to blame for societies faults, you and all your religious dingle berries my little french fried rose

[ajk]

No we religious ones are the ones that actually have some sense and are trying to make the world a better place to live in.

[who897]

Really then what the fuck am I doing my little dew drop

[ajk]

I don't know, but it certainly doesn't help anything.

[England Expects]

Religion is a terrible thing when the practice of it interferes with other peoples rights and freedoms; when a suicide bomber blows up a train in the name of Allah or when a Jewish state drops bombs on poor people in Lebanon, or when little George Jnr says "God bless America" whilst sending more working class Americans to their deaths in Iraq or Afghanistan.

There is no love in any of these situations. Religion inspires more hatred than love.

[General Septem]

Religion is a terrible thing when the practice of it interferes with other peoples rights and freedoms; when a suicide bomber blows up a train in the name of Allah or when a Jewish state drops bombs on poor people in Lebanon, or when little George Jnr says "God bless America" whilst sending more working class Americans to their deaths in Iraq or Afghanistan.

There is no love in any of these situations. Religion inspires more hatred than love.
No, personal greed and selfishness inspires hatred. My religion inspires love. Unfortunately few know this.

Have you ever heard of Mother Theresa?

[England Expects]

"Have you ever heard of Mother Theresa?"

Of course. What's your point?

[General Septem]

"Have you ever heard of Mother Theresa?"

Of course. What's your point?
Do you not agree she was a loving person? Probably more loving than you'll ever be?

[England Expects]

Probably.

So what?

[General Septem]

Probably.

So what?
And do you deny she was very religious? She was Catholic to be exact. I think she may even be up for sainthood if she's not a saint already.

[England Expects]

Yes she was. It looks like I know more about her than you do! (She's not a saint, but has been beatified)

I'm not suggesting religious people are incapable of doing good things, far from it. For every Mother Theresa, there are a million people using their religion for personal selfish and harmful reasons.

[General Septem]

Yes she was. It looks like I know more about her than you do! (She's not a saint, but has been beatified)

I'm not suggesting religious people are incapable of doing good things, far from it. For every Mother Theresa, there are a million people using their religion for personal selfish and harmful reasons.
I wouldn't say a million, but people do use whatever they can get their hands on for personal selfish and harmful reasons, not just religion. That isn't a problem with religion, it's a problem with people.

And likewise, many religions do breed hatred, but Christianity and especially Catholicism is not that way.

[England Expects]

But all religions (to my knowledge) are divisive, to the point where some oftheir followers are so convinced of their own righteousness that they are prepared to kill for their "god"

Christianity (and Catholicism in particular) is no exception to this.

[General Septem]

But all reigions (to my knowledge) are divisive, to the point where some oftheir followers are so convinced of their own righteousness that they are prepared to kill for their "god"

Christianity (and Catholicism in particular) is no exception to this.
Catholicism teaches unconditional love, so if anyone's going around killing people for various reasons they're obviously not good Catholics.

[England Expects]

Nearly 4000 people have been killed in the UK and Ireland over the last 30 years in the name of God. Some catholic, some protestant and a hell of a lot of completely innocent people.

In the 11th November 1987, the IRA, a catholic terrorist group, bombed a protestant church in Enniskillen, killing 11 people at a rememberence day service. You can say the perpetrators were not good catholics, but their catholicism inspired them to commit the attrocity.

http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/enniskillen.htm

[General Septem]

Nearly 4000 people have been killed in the UK and Ireland over the last 30 years in the name of God. Some catholic, some protestant and a hell of a lot of completely innocent people.

In the 11th November 1987, the IRA, a catholic terrorist group, bombed a protestant church in Enniskillen, killing 11 people at a rememberence day service. You can say the perpetrators were not good catholics, but their catholicism inspired them to commit the attrocity.

http://www.iraatrocities.fsnet.co.uk/enniskillen.htm
Their hatred led them to it, not Catholicism. They only used it as a shield.

4000 people over the course of thirty years is small next to many of the other atrocities we as humans commit, so I would say the religious are actually less likely to kill.

[England Expects]

Their hatred of protestants to be precise.

I agree, 4000 dead over 30 years maybe small when put into perspective, but its no less a tragedy for the families of those needlessly killed over a religious grudge.

Its great that your religion inspires love in you General, but in others it breeds hatred and no matter how many times you say "they're bad christians" or "their hatred did it, not their faith", you won't change the fact that these things happen.

[General Septem]

Its great that your religion inspires love in you General, but in others it breeds hatred and no matter how many times you say "they're bad christians" or "their hatred did it, not their faith", you won't change the fact that these things happen.
I'm not saying they didn't happen. I'm saying it's not because of religion that they happened. Religion served as nothing but a shield. If it wasn't for religion it's very likely things of this nature would be even more frequent.

[England Expects]

So a catholic terrorist group bomb a protestant church because they think protestants have no place in Ireland, and its not because of religion.

Nonsense.

Thankfully there is very little sectarian violence in Ulster these days, but the division, suspicion and hatred is still there. If you're ever in Belfast, be very carefull to avoid discussing your faith with anyone. It can land you in a whole world of trouble in some areas.

[General Septem]

So a catholic terrorist group bomb a protestant church because they think protestants have no place in Ireland, and its not because of religion.

Nonsense.

Thankfully there is very little sectarian violence in Ulster these days, but the division, suspicion and hatred is still there. If you're ever in Belfast, be very carefull to avoid discussing your faith with anyone. It can land you in a whole world of trouble in some areas.

No, it's not because of religion. It's because of personal hatred and misinterpretation of religion. "Catholic" terrorists hate Protestants because they are different. They cannot see the positives, only the negatives. They cannot see the similarities, only the differences. And they do not love the Protestants as we are called to love everyone, but rather they hate the Protestants.

So I say it's not because of religion, but because of ignorance. And we all know the answer to that: remove all the painfully obvious warning labels from everything and let the problem solve itself.

[death2chikins]

So a catholic terrorist group bomb a protestant church because they think protestants have no place in Ireland, and its not because of religion.

Nonsense.

Thankfully there is very little sectarian violence in Ulster these days, but the division, suspicion and hatred is still there. If you're ever in Belfast, be very carefull to avoid discussing your faith with anyone. It can land you in a whole world of trouble in some areas.

Blaming violence on religion is the easy way out. People use it to cover up their own faults and perhaps their own contributions to the violence. In such cases religion is nothing more than a scapegoat. Christianity has no holy wars on the contrary we are taught that wars or anything but holy. Unavoidable sometimes yes but never holy. But if you are going to label religion as a cause for this violent act or that violent act then you must also state the other causes as well and i am fairly certain those causes outweigh religion.

[who897]

And through religion people are ignorant....

Blaming compasion on relgion is wrong too then. People use that to cover up the fact their is no supreme being.

[General Septem]

Blaming compasion on relgion is wrong too then.

You almost have a point except for the fact that my religion actively promotes compassion.

There are religions that promote hatred mind you but mine is not one of them.

[ajk]

Then how the hell did we get here if there is no God? We didn't just come out of thin air.

[who897]

Then how the hell did we get here if there is no God? We didn't just come out of thin air.


Maybe we did, wouldn't that be rather facinating.



Septem, I was pointing out a generalization. I don't think religions should promote anything but neutrality. Because they really have no reason for interjecting themselves in the daily lives of society.

[England Expects]

Its seems you Christians are getting a little bit defensive here. I'm not saying these murders were carried out in the name of God or Christ.

Religion causes social division, be it between sunni and shia, jew and muslim or catholic and protestant. When ingrained into peoples psyche over generations it can cause violence.

To say religion doesn't cause problems is nonsense. Its putting your fingers into your ears and closing your eyes and pretending its not happening.

There are places in Northern Ireland and Scotland where you simply cannot go if you are catholic (different areas for protestants). Even discussing which school you went to (because many schools here are run by the church) can get you beaten up or worse.

[death2chikins]

Its seems you Christians are getting a little bit defensive here. I'm not saying these murders were carried out in the name of God or Christ.

Religion causes social division, be it between sunni and shia, jew and muslim or catholic and protestant. When ingrained into peoples psyche over generations it can cause violence.

To say religion doesn't cause problems is nonsense. Its putting your fingers into your ears and closing your eyes and pretending its not happening.

There are places in Northern Ireland and Scotland where you simply cannot go if you are catholic (different areas for protestants). Even discussing which school you went to (because many schools here are run by the church) can get you beaten up or worse.

As far as i know there is now reason why muslims jews and christians (both Catholic and Protestant) can not coexist. I must admit i do not understand all there is to know about Islam, Juddism, or Catholicism but what i do know is that these religions share many of the same values as each other. And why shouldn't they after all their history is very similiar. Religion does cause sepration of people believers and non believers but also teaches unity by teaching that all men are brothers since we all have the same creator. As i understand it man as divided himself among so many lines that how can you or anyone else point to one specific one and claim it to be the cause of any violence by doing so you are excusing mans own involment in any action he takes. One man kills another not his fault really since the man he killed was a different religion, race, sex,or had the misfortune of being gay. Does this make any sense? I would hope not. Man will always kill man all he needs is a excuse and really any excuse will do. So any excuse given is not really that important what is important is the cause. You can not get rid of religion any more than you can get rid of race, sex, or homosexuals so this is not the solution. Teaching tolerance is and religion does play a very important role in that even if people don't want to listen.

[General Septem]

Its seems you Christians are getting a little bit defensive here. I'm not saying these murders were carried out in the name of God or Christ.

Religion causes social division, be it between sunni and shia, jew and muslim or catholic and protestant. When ingrained into peoples psyche over generations it can cause violence.

To say religion doesn't cause problems is nonsense. Its putting your fingers into your ears and closing your eyes and pretending its not happening.

There are places in Northern Ireland and Scotland where you simply cannot go if you are catholic (different areas for protestants). Even discussing which school you went to (because many schools here are run by the church) can get you beaten up or worse.

Lots of things cause social division. Race for example. I think we can all agree that race cannot be blamed for racism, but intolerance and personal hatred. Unless you think race is the problem and we should just kill all the non-whites to put an end to racism once and for all. Oh, wait.

[England Expects]

"Lots of things cause social division. Race for example. I think we can all agree that race cannot be blamed for racism, but intolerance and personal hatred. Unless you think race is the problem and we should just kill all the non-whites to put an end to racism once and for all. Oh, wait."

Again, that's basically nonsense.

What your saying is that, for instance, Hitler didn't hate Jew's because of their religion/way of life, but had "personal hatred" for each one of them.

Of course race causes problems and if we were all of the same ethnicity there would be no racism. Of course, that wouldn't solve the worlds problems and there would still be points of difference but nobody would be discriminated against because of the colour of their skin.

"As far as i know there is now reason why muslims jews and christians (both Catholic and Protestant) can not coexist. I must admit i do not understand all there is to know about Islam, Juddism, or Catholicism but what i do know is that these religions share many of the same values as each other."

Their idea's, beliefs and philosophies are almost identical but there are elements of all 3 mono-theistics religions that are committed to murdering each other because they chose to express their beliefs in different ways.

[General Septem]

What your saying is that, for instance, Hitler didn't hate Jew's because of their religion/way of life, but had "personal hatred" for each one of them.

That's not what I meant by personal. I meant his personal hatred, as opposed to being because his religion required it of him. And Hitler wasn't even religious so we can't blame the holocaust on religion. Or would you blame the Jews for discriminating themselves? Do you also blame blacks and homosexuals for the hate crimes committed against them? Or do you blame hatred? Because apparently whoever named it a "hate crime" blames it on hatred.


Of course race causes problems and if we were all of the same ethnicity there would be no racism. Of course, that wouldn't solve the worlds problems and there would still be points of difference but nobody would be discriminated against because of the colour of their skin.

If everyone loved each other rather than hated each other, there wouldn't be any racism either. And if everyone was exactly the same the world wouldn't be worth living in, if for no other reason than eventually someone will be born different, and the world will hate him for that.

[death2chikins]

Their idea's, beliefs and philosophies are almost identical but there are elements of all 3 mono-theistics religions that are committed to murdering each other because they chose to express their beliefs in different ways.

Your saying that just because a small number of Muslims, Jews, or Christians are willing to kill each other than the whole religion itself it flawed? Thats like saying the human body should only be defined by the left arm. I am more than just an arm are a leg it is the sum of the whole that makes a human body a body. By saying that because of some radicals who prevert their religion all religion is to blame. By doing this you forget the good that these same religions do.

[who897]

But if the arm is gangrene then hopefully the rest of the body will die.

[England Expects]

General, you're over simplifying the whole issue. Maybe you have to do that so you can comprehend it.

If everyone was the same colour, there would be no racism. If everyone was heterosexual, there would be no homophobia. It's not complicated!!!! I'm not advocating getting rid of black people or homosexuals, but you cant deny that prejudice exists based on race and sexuality.

Chikins, I have never said all religion is flawed or bad. Again, what I've said is being over simplified. I have said that there are some people of all three religions that are inspired to commit horrible acts by there faith. That doesnt mean all religion is bad, but it does make it imperfect because it can be perverted.

[General Septem]

If everyone was the same colour, there would be no racism. If everyone was heterosexual, there would be no homophobia. It's not complicated!!!! I'm not advocating getting rid of black people or homosexuals, but you cant deny that prejudice exists based on race and sexuality.

And if we'd all die there'd be no more disease. Yes, if there were no race then there'd be no racism, but race is not the cause. If everyone were just the same race, people would find other reasons to hate each other, because the underlying cause is the hatred, not the race. The race is just a vessel for the hatred.

I could also just say that if everyone were Catholic there'd be no religious separation either. :D

[death2chikins]

Chikins, I have never said all religion is flawed or bad. Again, what I've said is being over simplified. I have said that there are some people of all three religions that are inspired to commit horrible acts by there faith. That doesnt mean all religion is bad, but it does make it imperfect because it can be perverted.

I never claimed it was perfect and anyone who has is in denial. I will admit that. But your point was religion causes violence and that was the point I was trying to address. Yes men who claim to be of one religion or another have commited violent acts but those acts can not be attributed to the religion unless the religion itself calls for it. It can only be attributed to man. If the bible told the people of Europe to launch the crusades against muslims then i whould agree with the assumptions that it was religion that caused that war. But the bible never said for them to do it they chose to do it they just used religious difference as justification. If it wasn't that it whould have been something else.

[England Expects]

Well I'll give you the example quoted earlier in the thread of Deuteronomy 13 which orders the murder of non-believers or the cleanliness laws in Leviticus which can be interpreted by some as avocating the murder of homosexuals.

You mention crusades, chikins, the crusades were ordered by Popes. So while Catholics claim papal infalibility, we must assume they were ordered by God!

General, your right, if we were all Catholic, there would be no religious problems:) . I dont agree that we would find other reasons to hate each other. I guess you've just got a low opinion of mankind.

[General Septem]

or the cleanliness laws in Leviticus which can be interpreted by some as avocating the murder of homosexuals.

Only by those who did not read statements such as "love thy neighbor as your self", "love thy enemies", "judge not lest ye be judged", and "let the man who has never sinned cast the first stone".


General, your right, if we were all Catholic, there would be no religious problems:) . I dont agree that we would find other reasons to hate each other. I guess you've just got a low opinion of mankind.

I'm not against us all being Catholic. :D

But racism and everything else will only truely be gone if the underlying hatred is removed. Sure, getting rid of race will solve the problem of racism, but why not cure the real problem? Why can't people forsake their hatred and love each other for who they are?

Everyone's got a group of people they find easy to love, and most people have a group of people they find easy to hate. If everyone were easy to love, then everyone would love each other, but don't you agree it would be better if everyone learned to love those that are hard to love? I mean... there's only so far you can break something down. I'm sure every straight white female has a straight white female co-worker they'd like to strangle, for no other reason than because she's annoying as hell. And race, religion, sexual orientation, and whatever else nonwithstanding, thre's always going to be situations where someone is hard to love.

[death2chikins]

Well I'll give you the example quoted earlier in the thread of Deuteronomy 13 which orders the murder of non-believers or the cleanliness laws in Leviticus which can be interpreted by some as avocating the murder of homosexuals.

The books of Deuteronomy and Leviticus or both Old Testament books and are Jewish laws not Christian law. Before Christ salvation came from the observance of this law and through sacrifice. Under this system sin was not forgiven but rather rolled forward to the next year (or atleast that is how I understand it). Christ however did away with this system when he was cruified he became our sacrifice. Our sins or not rolled forward like under Jewish law but wipe clean altogather. Christ taught tolerance not murder the very name Christain means Christ like that should be the goal of every christian those who do not strive for this are not following Christ and are not following christainity.


You mention crusades, chikins, the crusades were ordered by Popes. So while Catholics claim papal infalibility, we must assume they were ordered by God!

All men have sin and come short of the glory of God aleast that is what i was taught. No one is perfect not even the Pope. Papal infalibilty is another concept of men not God. The Pope is just as much political as he is religious and the papal decision to attack the muslims was concieved of politics not religion. And beside I'm not Catholic so i have my doubts on papal authority to begin with.

[who897]

Isn't the Catholic church the ones who started Christianity?

[England Expects]

"papal decision to attack the muslims was concieved of politics not religion"

The word "crusade" means "war of the cross".

It seems to me we're debating very little here; whether hatred is a cause or an effect. Does it really matter?

[General Septem]

All men have sin and come short of the glory of God aleast that is what i was taught. No one is perfect not even the Pope. Papal infalibilty is another concept of men not God. The Pope is just as much political as he is religious and the papal decision to attack the muslims was concieved of politics not religion. And beside I'm not Catholic so i have my doubts on papal authority to begin with.

The Pope is only infallible when he speaks ex cathedra. This isn't something the Catholic Church came up with but it rather something the Church discovered, or realized.

Having a Papal authority is essential to the Catholic Church. Without the Pope we would be split on many issues, as it sounds like many Protestants are.

[General Septem]

It seems to me we're debating very little here; whether hatred is a cause or an effect. Does it really matter?

Of course it does. You're saying religion is the cause of hatred which is flat out wrong. I'd say this matters a lot.

[General Septem]

Isn't the Catholic church the ones who started Christianity?

No, Jesus is the one who created Christianity.

But He only created one Church, the Catholic Church, and all other denominations broke off from Catholicism. The Catholic Church isn't the ones who created Christianity, it is Christianity.

[England Expects]

"But He only created one Church, the Catholic Church"

Now that is ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT!!!!

The Roman Catholic church was founded by St Peter, the first Bishop of Rome. Also at the time, Eastern Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Christian churches were being founded.

Roman Catholicism became the dominant church after 300AD when Emperor Constantine became the first Christian emperor.

For a Catholic General, you dont seem to know too much about the history of your faith. Ever been to Rome?

[General Septem]

"But He only created one Church, the Catholic Church"

Now that is ABSOLUTE BULLSHIT!!!!

The Roman Catholic church was founded by St Peter, the first Bishop of Rome. Also at the time, Eastern Orthodox and Greek Orthodox Christian churches were being founded.

Roman Catholicism became the dominant church after 300AD when Emperor Constantine became the first Christian emperor.

For a Catholic General, you dont seem to know too much about the history of your faith. Ever been to Rome?

Yes, I already know all that, but Jesus was the one who started Christianity. Peter was integral in creating the Church but the Church is based on Jesus, not Peter. Peter founded the Church but Jesus created it.

I'm actually most likely a descendent of Emperor Constantine so I know all about him too. :D

[England Expects]

So Jesus "founded" at least three early churches.

Again, have you been to Rome? If not then you should. I went with my wife last year, and even from a completely secular point of view, the history of the place in unbelievable.

We even saw your mate Beni.

[General Septem]

So Jesus "founded" at least three early churches.

Again, have you been to Rome? If not then you should. I went with my wife last year, and even from a completely secular point of view, the history of the place in unbelievable.

We even saw your mate Beni.

No, Jesus founded Christianity. Even the Orthodox Churches were broken off, albeit from a very early time. Jesus told Peter that "upon this rock I will build my Church".

Sorry, I forgot in my last message, but yes I have been to Rome. I saw Vatican City while I was there too. This was a few years ago when John Paul II was still alive. I also saw Venice, Capri, Florence, and Sorrento, among a few other random places.

[who897]

so, if your jesus created the catholic church, why isn't everyone catholic? I mean, if yall believe in jesus, shouldn't you be worshiping the way he wanted? I'm fairly certain most of ya religious folks aren't catholic.

Well, at least the Amish aren't very influental, they seem to be still trying to figure out how the wheel works. Imagine what part of the 1800's we'd still be in if it was up to them.

[ajk]

so, if your jesus created the catholic church, why isn't everyone catholic? I mean, if yall believe in jesus, shouldn't you be worshiping the way he wanted? I'm fairly certain most of ya religious folks aren't catholic.


That's because God gave us all free will. Some have chosen to abuse that free will and reject what the church teaches.

[General Septem]

so, if your jesus created the catholic church, why isn't everyone catholic? I mean, if yall believe in jesus, shouldn't you be worshiping the way he wanted? I'm fairly certain most of ya religious folks aren't catholic.

Actually Catholicism is still pretty much still the main denomination of Christianity. As for the other denominations, they're just misled.

[who897]

Then everyone who is not a part of the Catholic Church is inherently "evil"?

[General Septem]

Then everyone who is not a part of the Catholic Church is inherently "evil"?

Not necessarily, no. But the Catholic Church is the true Church of Christ. That doesn't mean others cannot recieve salvation.

[who897]

But if they are not praying to the god the catholic church, who apparently jesus created, set up, then they are praying to a fake god, which sorta is a no no in christianity.

[ajk]

Not neccessarily, there are other religions that pray to God and believe in Him.

[General Septem]

But if they are not praying to the god the catholic church, who apparently jesus created, set up, then they are praying to a fake god, which sorta is a no no in christianity.

Not necessarily. Other Christians may be praying to the same God even though they are not Catholic. They just don't follow the same doctrine and they aren't part of the same body that Catholics are.

[who897]

So then who do you think is more right? Better yet, who is wrong? And why are other religions wrong? Who makes up these rules, why would anyone go through such hurdles just on faith. It seems to me that religion is more of an impedence to our continued existance, in that it hinders all progress in medical science just because most all religions are painfully slow at seeing what is truely important in life. The living part.

[General Septem]

So then who do you think is more right? Better yet, who is wrong?

Catholicism, like I said is the true Church of Christ.

But just because someone is a member of another religion doesn't mean they're going to hell. To answer your question, we all are wrong. But as far as Churches go, the Catholic Church is the true Church. For no other reason than because first of all, it is the Church Christ initiated, and second, because the body of Christ cannot be divided.

[who897]

I guess the living part wasn't that inspiring.


Me thinks the Muslims were here first. I don't know to much about how that one developed, but I'm sure they got some compeling reason for theirs to be the only church/mosque what ever.

When they broke the bread, didn't they break the body of christ?

[General Septem]

Me thinks the Muslims were here first. I don't know to much about how that one developed, but I'm sure they got some compeling reason for theirs to be the only church/mosque what ever.

I guess you don't know too much about history. The Muslims were one of the first to break off from Christianity. The begining of the Muslim faith is very well documented.


When they broke the bread, didn't they break the body of christ?

No.

[who897]

Ok, when you break bread, you are ripping it off of the whole. I know somewhere it says jesus said something to the effect drink this wine it is my blood, eat this bread it is my body. By breaking the bread they in effect broke the body of christ then.

[ajk]

Then did Christ break himself then? Cause he broke the bread to begin with.

[General Septem]

Ok, when you break bread, you are ripping it off of the whole. I know somewhere it says jesus said something to the effect drink this wine it is my blood, eat this bread it is my body. By breaking the bread they in effect broke the body of christ then.

Kind of like how the Church, the living body of Christ, is one body but many people, you mean?

[who897]

Not really following, I think you are trying to cloud where I was going with that. What I said was quite literal, no need for comparisons. I know it was fairly easy to understand considering I aint edjumakated.

[England Expects]

How can you possible say Christ initiated the Catholic church?

Yes it's based on his teachings, but was founded by Peter.

I suspect you could speak to followers of any one of the hundreds of denominations of christendom, and they will all tell you that theirs is the correct doctrine to follow.

[ajk]

While it is true Peter was the official "rock", Jesus put him in that position.

[England Expects]

As the new testament was compiled, translated and approved by the early catholic church, it's not entirely surprising that there would be a vague endorsement of Peter included.

I wouldn't be surprised if that part did not crop up in the greek document.

[General Septem]

I wouldn't be surprised if that part did not crop up in the greek document.
Well, it did.

[England Expects]

No it didn't.

[General Septem]

No it didn't.

Well... we can keep this up for a long time.

[England Expects]

No we can't:)

[death2chikins]

Actually Catholicism is still pretty much still the main denomination of Christianity. As for the other denominations, they're just misled.

We share alot of the same views but saying those who do not follow Catholicism are misled is abit insulting General. Afterall the same quote you gave about peter "upon this rock i will build my church" can also mean that through Peter Jesus whould spread the message of salvation not nessarialy that peter whould found the only church. Jesus himself established no churches and in early christainty Peter was indeed the highest religious authority of the time after Christ but not the only one. Granted that other demoninations are spilt on certain issues many of us do share similar understandings of the bible. First being that a priest is not needed in order to make confession or to recieve absolution which can be given by God alone in the first place. Second that the idea that God speaks through the Pope or preist to his followers suggest a sepration of God from his followers this is considered wrong as well(by the Protestants i know anyway). Third is that the bible is open to interpretation which is accepted among Protestants but appartly not by the Catholic church by saying that one interpretation hold sway over all others is the same as saying it must be done this way and only this way removing man's free will all togather than what is the point. What man knows the mind of God so well that he can say what interpretation is right and which is wrong by trying to do so he is instead trying to play God not speak for God.

[General Septem]

Second that the idea that God speaks through the Pope or preist to his followers suggest a sepration of God from his followers this is considered wrong as well(by the Protestants i know anyway).

It's not considered wrong by any Catholic I know. I'm sorry if that was insulting but I'm just saying what I believe as a Catholic. I don't think you're going to go to hell or anything, I just believe that Catholicism is the true Church of Christ. Peter was the first Pope, and this is well documented in history books.

The reason why it is essential for there to be a hierarchy in the Church is so that we're all on the same track. There are some things the Bible leaves open to interpretation but in order for the Church to be a family, sometimes it needs to be decided one way or the other which one is right. And some things are still left open for interpretation which is fine. It doesn't always cause problems.

We don't claim to know the mind of God, but the Holy Spirit does guide the Catholic Church. Just like the Holy Spirit guided the men who wrote the Bible. They didn't know the mind of God either, they were human like us, but led by the Holy Spirit to write the Bible.

[who897]

LOL my church is holier then yours. That's like say my penis is bigger then yours. It's all about the motion in the ocean after all, and the only thing the churches do is cause waves in society when alls we want is a nice calm lake.

[General Septem]

LOL my church is holier then yours. That's like say my penis is bigger then yours. It's all about the motion in the ocean after all, and the only thing the churches do is cause waves in society when alls we want is a nice calm lake.

Most of the waves I see are caused by people such as yourself.

[death2chikins]

LOL my church is holier then yours. That's like say my penis is bigger then yours. It's all about the motion in the ocean after all, and the only thing the churches do is cause waves in society when alls we want is a nice calm lake.

on a nice calm lake nothing chances. i thought that was why you hated christianity because you think we oppose change. in that case you should love us not hate us.

[England Expects]

"The reason why it is essential for there to be a hierarchy in the Church is so that we're all on the same track."

Do you mean its essential to be told what to believe? That Catholics are incapable of coming to their own conclusions?

The Catholic church needs a heirarchy (and a threat of fire and brimstone to the non-compliant) to exercise control over the people who swell its coffers. At least Chickins doctrine promotes free-thought.

[death2chikins]

It's not considered wrong by any Catholic I know. I'm sorry if that was insulting but I'm just saying what I believe as a Catholic. I don't think you're going to go to hell or anything, I just believe that Catholicism is the true Church of Christ. Peter was the first Pope, and this is well documented in history books.

I have no problem with you believing the catholic church is the true chruch, but you should word your opinion as such and not state it as fact which is what you did. This is what is insulting.


The reason why it is essential for there to be a hierarchy in the Church is so that we're all on the same track. There are some things the Bible leaves open to interpretation but in order for the Church to be a family, sometimes it needs to be decided one way or the other which one is right. And some things are still left open for interpretation which is fine. It doesn't always cause problems.

From a Protestant stand point the problem with a hierarchy is that we believe it places barriers between God and his followers. The idea that individual people must go through this hierarchy in order to speak to him or ask for his forgiveness contradicts the idea of a personal God who wants a personal relationship with all his children. The questions we ask is how can this relationship be personal if it is not direct? And how can it be direct if it must flow through a heirarchy?

[General Septem]

"The reason why it is essential for there to be a hierarchy in the Church is so that we're all on the same track."

Do you mean its essential to be told what to believe? That Catholics are incapable of coming to their own conclusions?

The Catholic church needs a heirarchy (and a threat of fire and brimstone to the non-compliant) to exercise control over the people who swell its coffers. At least Chickins doctrine promotes free-thought.

No.

Catholicism promotes free thought as well. The important doctrine is well explained and understood by anyone with wisdom. Many other things, like I said if you'd go back and read, are still left open to interpretation.

The Church holds official positions on certain matters. We still have free will and can believe what we want, sometimes being right and sometimes being wrong.