View Full Version : My thoughts on abortion and why it is wrong
I just got introduced to this site tonight by a friend of mine, and thought I would talk about a few things that a lot of people fail to take into account about abortion. First off, it has been shown that abortions raise the risk that the woman may get breast cancer later on in life. Also, the woman always feels that loss, as do other people in her life.
In fact I am a testament to the latter. I myself have been affected by my mother having an abortion before she had me. Because of that, I am an only child as it were. I always wonder what my life would be like if my mom had had that child, it kinda eats at me. Just where would I be? It's something I'll always wonder about until the day I die.
Moreover, I nearly got aborted myself. My dad told me once that when my mom got pregnant with me (I was born out of wedlock), she wanted to abort me. But my dad wrote a letter to her telling her not to, that he'd take care of me. Thankfully of course she listened, and here I am today. I'm forever indebted to my dad for saving my life.
But anyhow I just wanted to chime in and show how it's not just the woman that is affected, but others around her can be affected as well. I'm living proof of that.
REPTILE
10-26-2006, 10:15 PM
Thats a very deep story dude. Its good that you've taken it in a positive way and appreciate life.
who897
10-27-2006, 12:34 AM
Right, and people like me don't appriciate our own lives. Just a thought.
sad_little_emo_lad
11-24-2006, 07:28 PM
Think about this: You're a little lifeform,and you're about to be born into this brand new world. Your mom, however, is a prostitute and can bearly support herself. Your dad is an asshole who probably doesnt even know he has a bastardchild. Wouldn't u just wanna die? oh,and u have aids, too. oh, And you're missing a testicle. Thats why i thumbs up to abortion! AMERICA RULES. and AC/DC rules too.
freakazoid
11-24-2006, 07:44 PM
Think about this: You're a little lifeform,and you're about to be born into this brand new world. Your mom, however, is a prostitute and can bearly support herself. Your dad is an asshole who probably doesnt even know he has a bastardchild. Wouldn't u just wanna die? oh,and u have aids, too. oh, And you're missing a testicle. Thats why i thumbs up to abortion! AMERICA RULES. and AC/DC rules too.
One word - Adoption.
A much better idea than death by abortion.
General Septem
11-24-2006, 11:10 PM
````
Right, and people like me don't appriciate our own lives. Just a thought.
So die?
MrBirdy
11-26-2006, 04:31 AM
READ!! abortion means, they get a little knife and cut momas womb, why would it cause breast cancer?
I dislike you AJK
General Septem
11-26-2006, 11:44 AM
READ!! abortion means, they get a little knife and cut momas womb, why would it cause breast cancer?
I dislike you AJK
See, us legal people go to school; it's payed for by taxes which is something you may not know anything about. In school we learn this thing called statistics. And the statistics say that abortion can increase the risk of medical problems later in life.
I can give more then stats on this one. When a woman gets pregnant, the body produces more milk then normal to the woman's breasts, hence why they tend to get bigger during pregency. If a miscarriage occurs, the body knows to stop producing the milk, and to let it out of the breasts naturally, since the baby is no longer alive. However, when an abortion is done, the body doesn't know what to do, since it wasn't prepared for something like this. As a result the milk produced in the breasts stays there, and hardens over time, eventually becoming cancerous, putting the woman at risk.
who897
11-26-2006, 06:06 PM
That's bout the silliest thing I've ever heard.
Hey you don't have to believe it, but it's the truth. I can back it up with sources if you'd like.
Ausinus
12-06-2006, 02:06 AM
Since you understand the law, I am going to make a jurisprudicial argument and say thats the law is ethics vs morals.
Perhaps in hindsight the cancellation of the abortion may seem like a good thing, but would you have said view if you were living on the streets, or have a birth defect that caused you daily pain? Perhaps then, you would wish you had been aborted.
In order to have a 'good' birth, the mother needs to be able to financially, physically and psychologically support the child. If she cant, then there is no point in having the child. Thus, we have abortion.
General Septem
12-06-2006, 03:45 PM
In order to have a 'good' birth, the mother needs to be able to financially, physically and psychologically support the child. If she cant, then there is no point in having the child. Thus, we have abortion.
Wrong. It is in order to have a good childhood, not birth, that the mother needs to be able to physically, financially, and psychologically be able to support the child. But killing the child is worse. Thus, we have adoption. I don't know about you, but I don't give a flying fuck how depressed, starving, or whatever I am, I will never wish I was dead, and anyone who on top of that thinks they can make that choice for me can go get fucked.
Ausinus
12-06-2006, 05:20 PM
By 'good' birth i mean born to be able to survive.
It is not killing. Some see it as murder of 'potential' life. If that definition applied then male masturbation would be murder too.
General Septem
12-06-2006, 05:32 PM
By 'good' birth i mean born to be able to survive.
So if there is a lesser chance of survival, you should cut that down to zero by killing the child.
It is not killing. Some see it as murder of 'potential' life. If that definition applied then male masturbation would be murder too.
The difference is that semen are not human beings. Foeti are.
Ausinus
12-06-2006, 06:44 PM
Foeti are not people. They are incapable of independent biological function. Once they attain biological independence or at least the capacity for it, then they are people.
Besides, the autonomy and well being of the mother supersedes the rights of the foetus. If the mother doesnt want an abortion, then she can choose not to have one.
It is the choice of the mother and the mother alone.
Wrong, unless in the case or rape she made the choice already. Once that happens she has to accept responsiblity for her actions. Having an abortion is not accepting responsibilty, but rather running from it.
Foeti are not people. They are incapable of independent biological function. Once they attain biological independence or at least the capacity for it, then they are people.
They are capable of independent biological function. For instance, they can suck their thumb, make faces, kick the mother, and even do somersaults in the womb. How is that not human?
General Septem
12-06-2006, 08:06 PM
Foeti are not people. They are incapable of independent biological function. Once they attain biological independence or at least the capacity for it, then they are people.
I said foeti are human beings. This is a biological fact, agreed upon by everyone.
As human beings, they are entitled to the inalienable /human/ right - not /personal/ right - to life. Arguing why what makes them different makes them exempt from this right to life is no different than arguing why blacks are exempt from the same human right to life.
Ausinus
12-06-2006, 08:21 PM
They are incapable of independent biological function in that they cannot live without thier biological mother, essentially being a part of her. After 24 weeks, the foetus is viable and becomes a person.
Abortion is not dodging responsibility, it is a choice made by a woman who doesnt want to have a baby.
Let me tell you a true story.
A friend of mine, Rebecca, accidentally became impregnated. She was only 17 at the time. She didnt want to have the baby, but unfortunatley in Australia, we dont have legal abortion unless completely necessary, so she had to carry it through. She had the baby, and she had to leave school to take care of it due to her family refusing to help take care of it.
If Bec had had the choice she would probably be in university right now, but isnt. Her future was ruined because of it and she feels that way too.
If a mother wants an abortion; I say let her have her way.
General Septem
12-06-2006, 08:25 PM
A friend of mine, Rebecca, accidentally became impregnated. She was only 17 at the time. She didnt want to have the baby, but unfortunatley in Australia, we dont have legal abortion unless completely necessary, so she had to carry it through. She had the baby, and she had to leave school to take care of it due to her family refusing to help take care of it.
If Bec had had the choice she would probably be in university right now, but isnt. Her future was ruined because of it and she feels that way too.
I'm glad she's not my mother. Why didn't she just offer it up for adoption then? I mean, not to sound unsympathetic but shit, I really can't feel sorry for her life being ruined if she chose to keep the baby and not adopt, which I think would've been better for her and her child.
You didn't respond to my statement that the fetus is a human being.
They are incapable of independent biological function in that they cannot live without thier biological mother, essentially being a part of her. After 24 weeks, the foetus is viable and becomes a person.
Abortion is not dodging responsibility, it is a choice made by a woman who doesnt want to have a baby.
Let me tell you a true story.
A friend of mine, Rebecca, accidentally became impregnated. She was only 17 at the time. She didnt want to have the baby, but unfortunatley in Australia, we dont have legal abortion unless completely necessary, so she had to carry it through. She had the baby, and she had to leave school to take care of it due to her family refusing to help take care of it.
If Bec had had the choice she would probably be in university right now, but isnt. Her future was ruined because of it and she feels that way too.
Hey it's her own fault, she screwed up and this is what can happen. Eventually in time I bet she will see that her life was not ruined, but in fact bettered by this, as she learned what can happen if she isn't careful and doesn't watch what she is doing. Better to learn it now, then later in life IMO. It's a shame though that the family refused to help her take care of it, and as such I concur that adoption would have been a good option here.
Abortion is not dodging responsibility, it is a choice made by a woman who doesnt want to have a baby.
Yes it is dodging responsibility. If she didn't want to have a baby, then she should have never had sex.
Ausinus
12-06-2006, 09:12 PM
They are incapable of independent biological function in that they cannot live without thier biological mother, essentially being a part of her. Additionally, they are not capable of reason or self consciousness, a defining characteristic of a person.
Im not asking you to feel sorry (but it is a sad story :( )
SEX IS NOT A SIN, OR A CRIME, IT IS COMPLETELY NATURAL THING
Im not sure why she didnt put it up for adoption.
SEX IS NOT A SIN, OR A CRIME, IT IS COMPLETELY NATURAL THING
I never said it was a sin or wrong by any means. God meant for it to be a beautiful thing, which in the context of marriage it is. It unites the married couple as one being, thereby solidfying the marriage . It's when it is done outside of marriage, that it becomes a sin.
General Septem
12-06-2006, 09:25 PM
They are incapable of independent biological function in that they cannot live without thier biological mother, essentially being a part of her. Additionally, they are not capable of reason or self consciousness, a defining characteristic of a person.
Personhood doesn't matter because the right to life is a human right and not a personal right, and foeti are human beings.
Im not asking you to feel sorry (but it is a sad story :( )
It's a sad story, but you're using that story as if asking me to understand why abortion should be allowed. You seemed like you were blaming her situation on the fact that she couldn't get an abortion, when in reality she had nobody to blame but herself because she could've given her child up for adoption.
SEX IS NOT A SIN, OR A CRIME, IT IS COMPLETELY NATURAL THING
Sex is a very beautiful thing, but its misuse is not. Nevertheless any reasonable person knows that the logical conclusion to sex is pregnancy, so by having sex she was asking for it, punishment or not.
Ausinus
12-06-2006, 10:46 PM
I never said it was a sin or wrong by any means. God meant for it to be a beautiful thing, which in the context of marriage it is. It unites the married couple as one being, thereby solidfying the marriage . It's when it is done outside of marriage, that it becomes a sin.
Extra-marital Sex is not, never has been and never will be a sin. There is nothing wrong with pleasure.
Personhood doesn't matter because the right to life is a human right and not a personal right, and foeti are human beings.
How so?
Extra-marital Sex is not, never has been and never will be a sin. There is nothing wrong with pleasure.
In the right context, pleasure is fine. But this is far from right the context. Having sex outside of marriage is wrong now, just as much as it was wrong 2000 years ago. Whether you agree with that or not is beside the point. The fact is it's wrong period. If you love the person enough you'll wait for that person.
Think of it this way, let's say you get married one day. Your wife tells you that night that she's waited all of her life just for you and for that moment you were about to share for the first time. Wouldn't you feel a bit guilty if you hadn't waited for her?
Or to put it on the other foot, what if you had waited all your life for your wife, only to find out she hadn't done the same. How would that make you feel?
Ausinus
12-06-2006, 11:23 PM
Well since I am not christian, I dont give a fuck. In fact, im only in high school and ive already had sex.
Perhaps I am too epicurean, but I believe that abstinence is unnatural.
I kinda assumed that, but just answer the question. Would or would you not feel guilty if your wife had waited for you and you hadn't? Forget about the other part, though I sort of assume you don't care either way based from your response.
Also, this abstience shouldn't be just a christian thing. It's common sense to me, you're meant to marry one person (some of us anyhow, some of course will not for various reasons), not 5 or 6, so why give of yourself that which you can't get back to a person who may not be your wife later on down the road?
Ausinus
12-06-2006, 11:31 PM
Ok, maybe you misconstrued my point.
Virginity is not a special thing. It is a state of being, much like being sick or being happy. This emphasis on saving it for your one and only is absolute garbage. The human body aint designed for celibacy, why do you think we have the ability to masturbate?
In fact, if i do marry, my wife will be someone who shares common opinion.
I disagree virginity is a gift, one that should be given away to one and only one. As far as masterbation goes, that's wrong too. Just because it may feel good, doesn't mean that it's right. Masterbation is even more selfish then pre marital sex, because you are using the sexual gift that God gave you to share with another being, back to self instead. It's self giving, when sex wasn't meant to be self giving at all. The media has brainwashed people like you to think that it should be all about me and what's good for me is ok, when that's nowhere near the truth.
Ausinus
12-06-2006, 11:45 PM
The media has nothing to do with it. I formulate my own beliefs based on logic.God didn't give me this body, evolution did. Yours too.
Anyway, wouldnt such a perfect being such as God make me so I couldn't masturbate?
Not neccessarily, he may use that possibility as a test, to see how we handle such a situation.
I disagree on the media too, you may not realize it but the media can impact how you think. For instance you see a sex scene on Sex on the City. You may think: "He does it and nothing happens, why can't I be that way?"
Oh and BTW, God did create you as he created all of us living. He knew us even before we were born.
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 12:06 AM
No I am safely assured that I can masturbate without consquence due to scientific studies which prove it.
Im sure even Jesus (if he even existed) took a quick wank once in a while.
No way. He may have been human, but he was actually perfect in every way unlike us now. In fact if not for Him, we wouldn't even able to be saved today. He died for each and every one of us living and dead, so that we could go to Heaven.
As far as the consequences of Masterbation, you may be able to do without physical consequences, but there are plenty of mental ones. It's an addiction.
How do you think you'll be able to have a girlfriend or marry doing something like that on top of it? No woman is gonna wanna be involved with a guy who masterbates.
General Septem
12-07-2006, 12:10 AM
Im sure even Jesus (if he even existed) took a quick wank once in a while.
You're so sure about that, are you?
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 12:11 AM
I beg your pardon my girlfriend knows full well of my masturbation habits.
Basically what you mean is no conservative christian woman is gonna want to be with me. Good riddance.
I'm sorry to hear that about your girlfriend. I hope she comes to her senses for both her sake and yours, maybe that will wake you up to what you are doing.
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 12:15 AM
Nope, she wont. Shes even more of an atheist than I am! Haha
And whats more, shes an ex orthodox! she already knows what the fuck im doing!
I stand by what I said, and I will be praying for both of your sakes. Lord knows you need it more then you know.
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 12:18 AM
Haha that sentence means you've given up on the argument! Dont think your the first one!
Oh I haven't given up on the argument by any means. In fact it's said prayer is the most powerful thing in the world. If I can't get to you though debate (though I will still try) I can get through to you by prayer.
Incidentally, why did your girlfriend leave the church?
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 12:32 AM
She said she had enough with its misery and falseries. Also because she read the bible in its entirety for the first time. Because it is so full of inconsitencies she gave up the faith. This was about 5 years ago before she met me (in case your wondering if i caused her to give up Christianity).
Wow I feel sorry for her, and hope and pray she returns to the faith at some point.
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 01:00 AM
Not bloody likely.
How does praying help? Your argument is that praying is communicating with god, so your asking it to turn her back to Xianity. Yet you also say we have free will? Kinda illogical
Well God can work miracles in people, to where they will sense the err of their ways and come back to him on their own. Prayer does a lot to help God work those little miracles.
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 01:05 AM
Why? Are my ways wrong to him?
who897
12-07-2006, 01:12 AM
Apparently your ways are wrong to god, it creates rainbows, that means it has gay pride, and you apperently are not gay.
You know what I find rather ironic. AJK disagrees with premarital sex, yet he is addicted to porn, which as we all know is a form of premarital sex or adultry. Like I said ironic.
Apparently your ways are wrong to god, it creates rainbows, that means it has gay pride, and you apperently are not gay.
You know what I find rather ironic. AJK disagrees with premarital sex, yet he is addicted to porn, which as we all know is a form of premarital sex or adultry. Like I said ironic.
Hey I never said I was perfect or better then anyone else here. I admit I have my problems. However at the same time I'm not afraid to speak the truth regardless of my past trangressions (which I am working through).
Why? Are my ways wrong to him?
In fact they are wrong to Him. BTW on the free will thing, God could reveal himself to you, your girlfriend or anyone else but ultimately it's still up to the person to accept Him. He's not gonna force you to, though he wishes you would. Prayer can help a person accept God though, in the form of softening the person's heart and such so that they see the truth, and freely accept it of their own accord.
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 01:32 AM
Speak the truth? Im sorry I dont remember christianity being true, all I remember is crusades, inquisition, heresy, technological suppresion and misery. Guess thats just me.
At least we atheists can back up our arguments with science, all you can do is pray for us to believe you.
Oh if you only knew how powerful prayer can be.
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 01:42 AM
Lets se how powerful it can be then. We want god to help us win a coin toss.
Pray. Chances of getting heads are 1:2. That is definite probability. Probability cannot be altered unless god makes both sides heads or tails. Probability of that 0. Now God cannot make it land on heads, because the law of conservation of energy does not permit it. Hence, prayer doesnt work.
Well that's one thing, but God can still work miracles in other ways, such as when a man wakes out of a coma after 25 years. Surely, prayer had something to do with that.
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 01:56 AM
No its just concidence. Catatonia can be recovered from, simply the longer it goes on, the less likely it is.
Besides, if a girl had tetanus would you pray? No, you'd take her to the doctor to get a shot done. Praying didnt save those people in Hiroshima, or the Jews in the Holocaust, or the columbine massacre. Maybe god is a bit lonely up there or something?
And why is god also always a guy? Im gonna call god it from now on.
There are no coincidences. Everything happens for a reason, and everyone has a purpose.
Incidentally, certain things obviously don't need praying for as they can be cured through human hands, but there are others that need prayer for various reasons.
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 02:16 AM
Wrong. It is a coincidence that two people that have the same birthday have the same name.
And what is everyone's purpose?
General Septem
12-07-2006, 09:19 AM
What the hell does this have to do with abortion?
Wrong. It is a coincidence that two people that have the same birthday have the same name.
And what is everyone's purpose?
Ok I'll give you that much, but there are some things that are clearly not coincidences such as the example I gave earlier. As for what everyone's purpose is, well each person has a different one.
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 06:05 PM
Okay, ive got to agree with septem. This is REALLY off topic.
Yeah it has gotten off topic, in fact maybe the whole coincedences topic should have it's own thread.
Nobody
12-07-2006, 10:13 PM
They are incapable of independent biological function in that they cannot live without thier biological mother, essentially being a part of her. Additionally, they are not capable of reason or self consciousness, a defining characteristic of a person.
Im not asking you to feel sorry (but it is a sad story :( )
SEX IS NOT A SIN, OR A CRIME, IT IS COMPLETELY NATURAL THING
Im not sure why she didnt put it up for adoption.
.................If you know what Miconium is,then you would understand that the fetus is capable of independent biological functions.---- They don't have any reasoning skills after they're born ether. thats a learned ability!
Ausinus
12-07-2006, 10:26 PM
It is spelt Meconium and by independent biological function, i mean physically capable of surviving outside the womb.
Brains_Behind_Operation
12-08-2006, 11:58 AM
They're still not physically capable of surviving outside the womb after birth, they are just moreso capable than before. They still need the care of a parental figure to survive for years after birth.
Ausinus
12-08-2006, 05:39 PM
But the point is that even with the mother present foeti CANNOT survive. Why do you think they have to gestate?
General Septem
12-08-2006, 08:59 PM
But the point is that even with the mother present foeti CANNOT survive. Why do you think they have to gestate?
And the point is it doesn't matter because they're still human beings and must not be murdered.
Ausinus
12-08-2006, 09:02 PM
Its protected by the Bill of Rights so there. Nah nah nah nah nah.
That may be but it's still wrong either way.
Ausinus
12-08-2006, 09:07 PM
No, its wrong to strip a woman of her right to use her body as she sees fit.
General Septem
12-08-2006, 09:08 PM
Its protected by the Bill of Rights so there. Nah nah nah nah nah.
It's protected by people who are raping the Bill of Rights, in a similar manner to how a gay black prisoner with a big dick will rape the scrawny white boy in jail.
General Septem
12-08-2006, 09:10 PM
No, its wrong to strip a woman of her right to use her body as she sees fit.
No, it is wrong to use one's body to kill another man's body.
Ausinus
12-08-2006, 11:24 PM
It could be a female.
And that is your opinion, just like mine is legal abortion till a substitute is found.
And that is your opinion, just like mine is legal abortion till a substitute is found.
In this case there are no opinions. There is simply right and wrong.
Ausinus
12-08-2006, 11:26 PM
Right or wrong is subjective.
General Septem
12-08-2006, 11:29 PM
Right or wrong is subjective.
If I killed you, would that be right or wrong?
No it isn't, if it was people could do whatever they wanted with no consequences to worry about. You want to kill another person, do it. You want drive drunk? Fine. If it feels good to you it's ok. See what happens when you have no true right or true wrong? Everything gets screwed up. In today's world, that is exactly what we see. A world full of violence, death, drunkeness.
Ausinus
12-08-2006, 11:31 PM
If I killed you, would that be right or wrong?
In my view, you would be wrong. In anothers view, it could be right. See.
Ausinus
12-08-2006, 11:32 PM
No it isn't, if it was people could do whatever they wanted with no consequences to worry about. You want to kill another person, do it. You want drive drunk? Fine. If it feels good to you it's ok. See what happens when you have no true right or true wrong? Everything gets screwed up. In today's world, that is exactly what we see. A world full of violence, death, drunkeness.
HAHAHA and i suppose when the church was in charge it was any better?
In my view, you would be wrong. In anothers view, it could be right. See.
So then if someone wanted to kill me and didn't believe it was wrong, it would be ok? When you make right and wrong subjective, you create a mob rules mentality basically.
HAHAHA and i suppose when the church was in charge it was any better?
We were better off then then we are now I would say. In the last 30 years or so, everything has started to unravel.
Ausinus
12-08-2006, 11:41 PM
You moron.
In the middle ages women were killed and degraded, there was no freedom of speech or religion, technology and learning were suppressed.
FOCUS ON LIFE NOT SUPPOSED AFTERLIFE.
I will agree in ways we have advanced, but while we've taken steps forward, we've also taken steps backward.
I did sort of misunderstand though, I didn't realize you were going that far back. My fault on that one. I will say this though, you argue women were degraded then. Well to that I say they are being degraded now too. Like for example with attractive females we see on TV or even on the streets. We don't see them as human beings, we only see them for their bodies. We see them as being hot pieces of ass and nothing more.
Ausinus
12-08-2006, 11:48 PM
Well when do you want to go back to? Just because your values are chronostatic doesnt mean society's have regressed.
Well when do you want to go back to? Just because your values are chronostatic doesnt mean society's have regressed.
Yes it has in many ways. We've forgotten how special marriage should be for one thing, and how hard it really is. People give up so easily in marriages today. They think it's going to be all fun and games, when that isn't always the case. Even the best marriages have their problems from time to time. You work through them, instead of just saying "Oh this is too hard I quit".
Also too, human life means nothing today seemingly. Something is terribly wrong if people think they can just kill a human baby because it "inconvenices them".
Ausinus
12-09-2006, 12:09 AM
Yes it has in many ways. We've forgotten how special marriage should be for one thing, and how hard it really is. People give up so easily in marriages today. They think it's going to be all fun and games, when that isn't always the case. Even the best marriages have their problems from time to time. You work through them, instead of just saying "Oh this is too hard I quit".
That is because they choose to. They have the right to do as they wish within the bounds of the law.
Marriage is just a ceremony to pronounce you spouses. Its only real purpose these days is for legal reasons, which is why we have civil marriages. My parents probably wouldnt have gotten married were it not for the legal reasons.
Also too, human life means nothing today seemingly. Something is terribly wrong if people think they can just kill a human baby because it "inconvenices them".
Something is terribly wrong if the mother has no control over her own uterus.
That is because they choose to. They have the right to do as they wish within the bounds of the law.
Marriage is just a ceremony to pronounce you spouses. Its only real purpose these days is for legal reasons, which is why we have civil marriages. My parents probably wouldnt have gotten married were it not for the legal reasons.
I'm not saying they can't choose to, it's just sad that it's happening. So many broken families.
Something is terribly wrong if the mother has no control over her own uterus.
Not when there's a human life in that uterus. The mother has no right to willing kill another being.
Ausinus
12-09-2006, 12:17 AM
Most divorces are just DINKS anyway so it doesnt really do anything.
And a woman always has control over herself. And if a mother is willing to abort a foetus, and its legal, then its her choice. Not yours, not your religion's, just hers.
Most divorces are just DINKS anyway so it doesnt really do anything.
Try telling that to any kids involved.
And a woman always has control over herself. And if a mother is willing to abort a foetus, and its legal, then its her choice. Not yours, not your religion's, just hers.
It may be her choice, but it really shouldn't be. As I said before once the baby is in the womb, his or her life has precedence over that of the woman.
Ausinus
12-09-2006, 12:22 AM
DINKS = Double income no kids. It is not an insult.
So if she dies in childbirth and the baby survives it doesnt matter then?
DINKS = Double income no kids. It is not an insult.
Sorry bout that, didn't know what Dinks meant.
So if she dies in childbirth and the baby survives it doesnt matter then?
Well it would be unfortunate if that happened, but it would be for the greater good then to simply kill the baby to save your self.
Ausinus
12-09-2006, 12:29 AM
And what is the greater good then?
And what is the greater good then?
A new life being brought into the world.
Ausinus
12-09-2006, 12:34 AM
Obviously your version differs from mine.
My greater good is having a long, good and fun life and pursuing your interest, learning as much as you can and doing good works so once you are gone, you live on in your legacy.
Which involves RETAINING said life.
Obviously your version differs from mine.
My greater good is having a long, good and fun life and pursuing your interest, learning as much as you can and doing good works so once you are gone, you live on in your legacy.
Which involves RETAINING said life.
I understand that, but at the same time I find it's selfish of a person to save their own life over the life of a baby who hasn't the chance to experience life in the same way they have to that point. Besides you may survive anyway.
Ausinus
12-09-2006, 12:41 AM
I disagree. I would rather choose my own life, as there is no guarantee you may survive or the baby will survive. Basically -
When all turns to crap, lets stick with what we got.
I disagree. I would rather choose my own life, as there is no guarantee you may survive or the baby will survive. Basically -
When all turns to crap, lets stick with what we got.
See that's wrong, you have already lived life to a point, the baby has not, Therefore the baby is more important then the living person at that point.
Ausinus
12-09-2006, 12:47 AM
But again, there is no guarantee that the baby would survive the birth, or be able to live without the mother. But if you had reasonable certainty that you would survive, why endanger your life for one whos you are less than certain?
I take the less worrying road. Its cos I'm Epicurean:D
But again, there is no guarantee that the baby would survive the birth, or be able to live without the mother. But if you had reasonable certainty that you would survive, why endanger your life for one whos you are less than certain?
Actually the baby would be more likely to survive even without the mother. In fact I read somewhere that even when the mom has died, the baby in the womb is still able to survive anyway.
Ausinus
12-09-2006, 12:51 AM
Perhaps in utero, but I was referring to the fact that the mother isnt going to be there after the child was born.:)
Perhaps in utero, but I was referring to the fact that the mother isnt going to be there after the child was born.:)
Well that's where the rest of the family steps in and helps take care of it and raise it.
Ausinus
12-09-2006, 12:55 AM
Not all families are loving you know. Or they dont want the child. People can be cruel. I would take it, if it was a relative, personally. But others might not.
A mother would probably know if her family would take the baby or not. I wouldnt regardless because I wouldnt want to burden them.
Btw, did you know all babies are born atheists?
Not all families are loving you know. Or they dont want the child. People can be cruel. I would take it, if it was a relative, personally. But others might not.
A mother would probably know if her family would take the baby or not. I wouldnt regardless because I wouldnt want to burden them.
Btw, did you know all babies are born atheists?
Not really, they can't be anything at that time, because they don't know anything yet on that level.
Ausinus
12-09-2006, 08:05 PM
Youre right. I forgot about tabula rasa [punches self in head].:D
tocrayzay
01-22-2007, 07:40 AM
general septem your shit about adoption is really really annoying!!!!
you say give the baby up for adoption well there are to things that need to be considered, a woman that carries that baby in her for 9 months might not be able to give it up for adoption and sorry to say but love alone does not feed, clothe or put shelter over a childs head. and how the hell do you know where that child ends up? and maybe you can cope with a shitty life (which for all i know you never had) but some people can't and kill themselves. i mean for all we know this woman giving her child up for adoption had a girl this girl ends up in a foster home where a male figure rapes her she gets pregnant and it starts all over again. i mean c'mon THINK!!!!!!!!
plus you people that are so anti abortion focus on when the fetus has developed body parts well there is a time when it is just cells yes just cells it doesn't even look like anything but a blob and when aborted in a time like that i see nothing wrong with that i could understand a women having an abortion at say month 5 it is an iffy subject at that point especially considering the way abortion is done at that time but if it can be sucked with no problem like a piece of dust, call me heartless but the woman has every right to choose!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! just because a woman has the right to choose does not mean you or your girlfriend/wife has to do it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
and usually the first ones to cry about abortion are the first ones to say we all need guns...which although a completely different debate they often seem to run hand in hand
and oh yeah about the breast cancer thing if that is the best thing to come up with against abortion then that is sad. if a woman is willing to take that risk let her they are her breasts just like it is her womb
Why should we let her harm herself though like that? It's irresponsible to let that happen really. If nothing else they must know that risk is there.
General Septem
01-22-2007, 09:47 AM
You know what I really hate is when people act like I'm anti-choice because I believe abortion is wrong. I'm not even talking about choice, I'm talking about the morality associated with abortion. Just because I think it is wrong does not mean I think it should be illegal - the law means less than dogshit to me, something to clean off the bottom of one's shoe when stepped in. I just want people to stop lying about it not being wrong, and stop trying to justify it. You can't justify the killing of another human being unless they're trying to hurt you first.
tocrayzay
01-22-2007, 12:09 PM
Why should we let her harm herself though like that? It's irresponsible to let that happen really. If nothing else they must know that risk is there.
its called being desperat
there is such a thing maybe you don't know but its there which is why women and girls would do it
tocrayzay
01-22-2007, 12:10 PM
You know what I really hate is when people act like I'm anti-choice because I believe abortion is wrong. I'm not even talking about choice, I'm talking about the morality associated with abortion. Just because I think it is wrong does not mean I think it should be illegal - the law means less than dogshit to me, something to clean off the bottom of one's shoe when stepped in. I just want people to stop lying about it not being wrong, and stop trying to justify it. You can't justify the killing of another human being unless they're trying to hurt you first.
well considering (from the post of yours i have read mind you) it seems like you are anti choice you cannot expect a different reaction
its called being desperat
there is such a thing maybe you don't know but its there which is why women and girls would do it
That's not the point. The point is for the doctors not to make her aware of the health risks with the abortion (including breast cancer), that is irresponsible of them. The women deserve to know just what they are getting into, and what can happen as a result of it.
General Septem
01-22-2007, 07:41 PM
well considering (from the post of yours i have read mind you) it seems like you are anti choice you cannot expect a different reaction
Considering you're a moron, you mean. I have said nothing to the affect of choice whatsoever - I'm only saying that it's wrong.
who897
01-23-2007, 12:14 AM
Wrong? Well, I must say I differ in opinion on that one. It's a matter of perspective and how you see things!
There is no such thing as perspective for things like this. It's not: "What's good for me is fine". No it doesn't work that way. There is a distinct difference between right and wrong. And if you're pro "choice" you're on the wrong side of it.
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 12:53 AM
There is no such thing as perspective for things like this. It's not: "What's good for me is fine". No it doesn't work that way. There is a distinct difference between right and wrong. And if you're pro "choice" you're on the wrong side of it.
That your opinion.
No it's fact. If you're not pro life you're supporting murder which is and always will be wrong. This is not an opinion it is the truth.
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 12:56 AM
No it's fact. If you're not pro life you're supporting murder which is and always will be wrong. This is not an opinion it is the truth.
Nope. Abortion is not murder, as murder is killing another person with intent.
What the hell do you call abortion then? You are intending to kill the baby no?
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 01:45 AM
What the hell do you call abortion then? You are intending to kill the baby no?
Abortion is abortion. Its in a class of its own.
But the foetus isnt a person. ;)
Yes it is. Just because it isn't fully formed yet does not make it any less a person.
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 02:02 AM
Yes it is. Just because it isn't fully formed yet does not make it any less a person.
Its cognitive and reasoning inability makes it less of a person. A person is a sapient, sentient being. Since foeti are neither of these before a certain period, they arent people.
You could say the same for someone who is mentally retarded. Yet that is still a person.
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 02:22 AM
You could say the same for someone who is mentally retarded. Yet that is still a person.
Mentally retarded people are both sentient and sapient, to a degree. Foeti are neither.
Doesn't matter they are still a separate life from the mother. They are just in a different stage of development then we are. Doesn't make them any less a person however.
theicidal maniac
01-23-2007, 03:00 AM
Doesn't matter they are still a separate life from the mother. They are just in a different stage of development then we are. Doesn't make them any less a person however.
Haven't we been here before? A hippopotamus in Nigeria is ALSO a seperate life from the mother. Does that make IT human TOO?
That's different. Obviously that's an animal, so that has nothing to do with this at all.
theicidal maniac
01-23-2007, 03:04 AM
That's different. Obviously that's an animal, so that has nothing to do with this at all.
Tell me the difference between IT and the embryo....SERIOUSLY, I'll give you a chance to persuade me here...
Because there's an obvious difference between that and a human being. It's DNA is different from our own, and plus it doesn't take 9 months to be born neccessarily like a human being does.
theicidal maniac
01-23-2007, 03:10 AM
Because there's an obvious difference between that and a human being. It's DNA is different from our own, and plus it doesn't take 9 months to be born neccessarily like a human being does.
It takes LONGER, actually. And a baby's dna is different from it's mother's dna as is that of a fetus, and that of an embryo and that of a rhinocerous. That's what makes it a seperate being. Keep trying.
Then why should anyone have the right to take it away? It's not the woman's body she is taking control over, but the body of another person in the womb.
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 03:14 AM
Then why should anyone have the right to take it away? It's not the woman's body she is taking control over, but the body of another person in the womb.
News flash: Foeti are not people. And it essentially is her life, as the foetus is basically a parasite.
No it isn't, it is another human being. In fact at 5 weeks it actually has a heartbeat. So they are people, again they are in a different stage of development then we are as adults, but they are still human just the same.
theicidal maniac
01-23-2007, 03:17 AM
Then why should anyone have the right to take it away? It's not the woman's body she is taking control over, but the body of another person in the womb.
Well at the embryonic stage it's not really a body at all
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 03:17 AM
No it isn't, it is another human being. In fact at 5 weeks it actually has a heartbeat. So they are people, again they are in a different stage of development then we are as adults, but they are still human just the same.
OMG, IT HAS A HEARTBEAT. STOP THE PRSSES.
Having a heartbeat is not criteria for personhood. It isnt even necessarily a critera for life. And it is still a parasite, it feeds off the woman without giving anything back.
theicidal maniac
01-23-2007, 03:17 AM
No it isn't, it is another human being. In fact at 5 weeks it actually has a heartbeat. So they are people, again they are in a different stage of development then we are as adults, but they are still human just the same.
Fish have heartbeats.
theicidal maniac
01-23-2007, 03:18 AM
What up Ausi...you ready to do what you gotta do to fight ignorance tonight? Go get him!
That has nothing to do with this at all. Fish are meant to be eaten by us, it's part of the circle of life (same goes for other animals).
OMG, IT HAS A HEARTBEAT. STOP THE PRSSES.
Having a heartbeat is not criteria for personhood. It isnt even necessarily a critera for life. And it is still a parasite, it feeds off the woman without giving anything back.
Wow you are truly heartless then. If you don't think a heartbeat constitutes life, you're even dumber then I thought.
Well at the embryonic stage it's not really a body at all
That doesn't matter. Again it may be in a different stage of development, but it's still a life that we cannot just snuff out.
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 03:21 AM
Wow you are truly heartless then. If you don't think a heartbeat constitutes life, you're even dumber then I thought.
Lets think of all the life that doesnt have a heartbeat.
Bacteria
Plants
Algae
Fungi
Prokaryotes
Amongst other things. If a heartbeat was the reason we couldnt abort foeti, then we couldnt kill animals.
theicidal maniac
01-23-2007, 03:27 AM
That doesn't matter. Again it may be in a different stage of development, but it's still a life that we cannot just snuff out.
Actually we CAN snuff it out. I've seen video of it.
Yes but it's still incredibly wrong and evil, something which anyone who takes part in it will have to be responsible for at the end of their lives.
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 03:30 AM
Yes but it's still incredibly wrong and evil, something which anyone who takes part in it will have to be responsible for at the end of their lives.
Blah blah moral consequence. Its that sort of talk which caused people to protest the HPV vaccine.
You will see what you have been doing to yourself (and others) when you are judged as all of us will be after we die.
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 03:35 AM
You will see what you have been doing to yourself (and others) when you are judged as all of us will be after we die.
Blah blah blah. Jeez, its like a fricking broken record "Hell, hell, judgement". Seriously wouldnt it be funny if the Muslims were right?
theicidal maniac
01-23-2007, 03:37 AM
Blah blah blah. Jeez, its like a fricking broken record "Hell, hell, judgement". Seriously wouldnt it be funny if the Muslims were right?
Or the Mormons
Ausinus
01-23-2007, 03:39 AM
Or the Mormons
*shudder*:D
Ape-Shit
01-23-2007, 06:34 AM
Hey, I'm all for the Mormons and King Faruk. Gee, having 10 wives isn't a sin is it?
hitekredneck
01-23-2007, 08:19 AM
Hey, I'm all for the Mormons and King Faruk. Gee, having 10 wives isn't a sin is it?
you gotta be fuckin nuts...i can barely handle the 1 wife i got!!!!
tocrayzay
01-23-2007, 12:58 PM
Considering you're a moron, you mean. I have said nothing to the affect of choice whatsoever - I'm only saying that it's wrong.
let me bow down to your great skills at debate
the best you could do is call me a moron
you and ajk ARE the perfect team
General Septem
01-23-2007, 04:07 PM
let me bow down to your great skills at debate
the best you could do is call me a moron
you and ajk ARE the perfect team
At least I told you why you're a moron, because regardless of how many times I've said that my argument has nothing to do with controlling anyone, you keep accusing me of sounding anti-choice.
theicidal maniac
01-23-2007, 04:26 PM
let me bow down to your great skills at debate
the best you could do is call me a moron
you and ajk ARE the perfect team
hey you better be careful about ridiculing or disagreeing with Genital Slurpem...he'll block you like he's done to me...he doesn't have any room in his life for "facts" or "reason"
tocrayzay
01-24-2007, 03:51 AM
hey you better be careful about ridiculing or disagreeing with Genital Slurpem...he'll block you like he's done to me...he doesn't have any room in his life for "facts" or "reason"
oh my if that would happen my heart would be broken...nooooo
he he
tocrayzay
01-24-2007, 03:52 AM
At least I told you why you're a moron, because regardless of how many times I've said that my argument has nothing to do with controlling anyone, you keep accusing me of sounding anti-choice.
i accused you once and then told you why i did but since your skills at reasoning suck major ass I will forgive you
General Septem
01-24-2007, 08:10 PM
oh my if that would happen my heart would be broken...nooooo
he he
You're in no danger of that, yet. I only blocked mr. pissenshit because all he ever did was hurl pejoratives around and never added anything intelligent. I was tired of his bullshit. I might unblock him if he starts adding anything besides flaming.
theicidal maniac
01-25-2007, 03:21 PM
You're in no danger of that, yet. I only blocked mr. pissenshit because all he ever did was hurl pejoratives around and never added anything intelligent. I was tired of his bullshit. I might unblock him if he starts adding anything besides flaming.
I guess his definition of "anything intelligent" is not the standard definition. He'll debate with you as long as your "intelligent" conversation is something he agrees with, or something that his church has told him the answer to. If you throw him any original, intellectual, or factual information his way it only results in "does not compute" and he has to block you.
tocrayzay
01-26-2007, 05:30 AM
but why block anybody
this is a forum for debate and in debate people will make arguments that you will find completly irrelevant because to you they don't have any factual point
and thats just a part of life
and if you can't handle debate then why are you registered here?
General Septem
01-26-2007, 04:48 PM
I guess his definition of "anything intelligent" is not the standard definition. He'll debate with you as long as your "intelligent" conversation is something he agrees with, or something that his church has told him the answer to. If you throw him any original, intellectual, or factual information his way it only results in "does not compute" and he has to block you.
And in any event, this has nothing to do with abortion, and I've already explained why I blocked you in detail in another thread, and frankly, I don't feel I have to justify myself to your dumbass.
theicidal maniac
01-27-2007, 05:03 AM
And in any event, this has nothing to do with abortion, and I've already explained why I blocked you in detail in another thread, and frankly, I don't feel I have to justify myself to your dumbass.
I thought you blocked me...why the hell are you still typing messages to me...Jesus Titty-Fucking Christ, get over me already and let someone else have a chance. ;) ....someone who HAS a chance
something
01-27-2007, 02:17 PM
Allright, let's get this back to abortion. I think abortion is good, and that's because it's offer a chance to womens that just don't want to have a baby.
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you don't want a baby just put it up for adoption. There are many many couples out there who would do anything for a child, but cannot conceive through natural means.
If you don't want to do that, then it would be in your best interest to think things through before you decide to have sex. Sure the act is pleasurable and all that, but you have to ask yourself: Is that one fleeting moment of pleasure really worth it, if it results in a child you are not prepared for and don't want at that particular time in your life?
something
01-27-2007, 04:24 PM
I've said it before and I'll say it again, if you don't want a baby just put it up for adoption. There are many many couples out there who would do anything for a child, but cannot conceive through natural means.
If you don't want to do that, then it would be in your best interest to think things through before you decide to have sex. Sure the act is pleasurable and all that, but you have to ask yourself: Is that one fleeting moment of pleasure really worth it, if it results in a child you are not prepared for and don't want at that particular time in your life?
Well, just being pregnant is pretty ill if you didn't mean to be it. Do you really think any women would wait nine months, when they can take care of it imidiatley? And how about if a women get raped? why would they give birth to a chid they didn't even want?
Because we do not have the right to murder another life. It's sad what happened with the rape, but all you're doing is adding on to the violence by killing the baby on top of it.
something
01-27-2007, 04:32 PM
Because we do not have the right to murder another life. It's sad what happened with the rape, but all you're doing is adding on to the violence by killing the baby on top of it.
Allright, here's something that usually makes theese discussion end, because if a fetus is a human or not, is only a question of personal opinons. But if I say this; What do you think makes the fetus to a human being?
Allright, here's something that usually makes theese discussion end, because if a fetus is a human or not, is only a question of personal opinons. But if I say this; What do you think makes the fetus to a human being?
It's not really personal opinions. You may not agree with me, but you will still be wrong if you think a fetus is not human.
As for what makes the fetus human to me, it's simply because of the fact that from the moment of conception that child is growing in the womb. That child with it's own DNA, it's own unique genetic make up is growing. Not unlike us as adults, teenagers, etc. As we age, we too grow in one way or another.
something
01-27-2007, 04:46 PM
It's not really personal opinions. You may not agree with me, but you will still be wrong if you think a fetus is not human.
As for what makes the fetus human to me, it's simply because of the fact that from the moment of conception that child is growing in the womb. That child with it's own DNA, it's own unique genetic make up is growing. Not unlike us as adults, teenagers, etc. As we age, we too grow in one way or another.
Just beacause it's has it's own DNA doesn't it mean it's a human. Toenails have your DNA, but they aren't humans. A human is more then DNA, it's a brain, it's a hart, lungs, kidneys and a skelleton, wich a fetus not have, it can't notice a shit untill it's a wield after it's birth.
It can notice plenty in the womb, as I said recognizing sounds, voices, etc.
something
01-27-2007, 04:53 PM
It can notice plenty in the womb, as I said recognizing sounds, voices, etc.
Actually it can't, because the brain makes connections betwen nerws and cells when it needs to and get plenty of impressions, wich it doesn't get inside the womb. And it needs to have ears and eyes and a brain to do that anyway, and those things wont evolve untill after a few months.
Actually it can't, because the brain makes connections betwen nerws and cells when it needs to and get plenty of impressions .
Yes it can, studies have shown this.
something
01-27-2007, 04:58 PM
Yes it can, studies have shown this.
Weren't you listening? IT CAN'T, because it miss organs to notice things, and it miss a brain to remember and process theese things.
No it doesn't:
By the end of week 12, all the organs are formed, the arms and legs are longer, though still very thin, and the fingers and toes have developed.
per here: http://www.babyworld.co.uk/information/pregnancytimeline/9-12weeks.htm
More proof around Weeks 21 to 24
Your baby can now hear, and as well as being aware of the sounds inside your body, he will also begin to recognise your voice. The cells in the brain that will make it possible for him to think are starting to mature.
yea_thats_right1
01-27-2007, 05:53 PM
ok i was reading something the other day about the youngest mother on record.... she was a 9 year old from south america and she was raped and became pregnant... now i will tell you this... if this happened to my kid.. there is no fucking way in hell i would make her have that baby... thats just fucking sick... and anyone who thinks otherwise is more twisted than i thought.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 05:56 PM
More proof around Weeks 21 to 24
Your baby can now hear, and as well as being aware of the sounds inside your body, he will also begin to recognise your voice. The cells in the brain that will make it possible for him to think are starting to mature.
Most abortions occur prior to 24 weeks, didnt you know that?
Doesn't matter, it's still wrong no matter when or why it is done.
ok i was reading something the other day about the youngest mother on record.... she was a 9 year old from south america and she was raped and became pregnant... now i will tell you this... if this happened to my kid.. there is no fucking way in hell i would make her have that baby... thats just fucking sick... and anyone who thinks otherwise is more twisted than i thought.
Let me ask you this, did she make it through the pregnancy okay?
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 05:59 PM
Let me ask you this, did she make it through the pregnancy okay?
She was fucking 9 years old you asshole, why dont you go to Ethiopia and cut off clitorises to make sure girls arent promiscuous? Sounds like something you'd do.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:00 PM
Doesn't matter, it's still wrong no matter when or why it is done.
Are you capable of debating? If something doesnt go your way, all you say is "doesnt matter, its still wrong". That is YOUR opinion.
Are you capable of debating? If something doesnt go your way, all you say is "doesnt matter, its still wrong". That is YOUR opinion.
No it is fact. Was always and will continue to be.
She was fucking 9 years old you asshole, why dont you go to Ethiopia and cut off clitorises to make sure girls arent promiscuous? Sounds like something you'd do.
Was I asking you? That's what I thought.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:04 PM
No it is fact. Was always and will continue to be.
Morals change, too bad for you :P
yea_thats_right1
01-27-2007, 06:04 PM
Let me ask you this, did she make it through the pregnancy okay?
she made it i believe... but what the hell shes 9... oh and google the youngest mother in the world and there are 2 pages of stories about a 5 year old mother... im not too sure if i believe it but still... you would have to be a sick person to force a child to have a baby
I understand that it is extremely unfortunate that these things happen, but we cannot compromise one life for the sake of another life. Besides that in both of those cases the child made it through the pregnancy just fine anyway.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:14 PM
I understand that it is extremely unfortunate that these things happen, but we cannot compromise one life for the sake of another life. Besides that in both of those cases the child made it through the pregnancy just fine anyway.
I hope you die a painful death.
You honestly think that life is better for these children?
As I said, you cannot compromise one life for the sake of another. You simply cannot do it.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:17 PM
As I said, you cannot compromise one life for the sake of another. You simply cannot do it.
Yet you said yourself that you may compromise a life for the sake of self defense. In any case, the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment in the greek says "Thou shalt not MURDER", and it doesnt define murder.
Yet you said yourself that you may compromise a life for the sake of self defense. In any case, the "Thou shalt not kill" commandment in the greek says "Thou shalt not MURDER", and it doesnt define murder.
Obviously self defense is an entirely different case.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:20 PM
Obviously self defense is an entirely different case.
No, not really. Killing in self defense is permissible because it allows for the person to retain security in their persons. As is abortion.
No abortion is not self defense. In order for it to be okay to kill in self defense, the person attacking as it were, has to be doing it willingly. The baby of course cannot do that.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:25 PM
No abortion is not self defense. In order for it to be okay to kill in self defense, the person attacking as it were, has to be doing it willingly. The baby of course cannot do that.
Can you not use the term foetus and baby as if they were interchangable, they arent. It amazes you any college with any criteria for entry allowed you in.
Youre right, abortion isnt self defense. Its exercising control over your own body.
Youre right, abortion isnt self defense. Its exercising control over your own body.
Again it isn't yours at that point. It's the body of another as well. And I'll use the term fetus or baby anyway I want to thank you very much.
yea_thats_right1
01-27-2007, 06:27 PM
I understand that it is extremely unfortunate that these things happen, but we cannot compromise one life for the sake of another life. Besides that in both of those cases the child made it through the pregnancy just fine anyway.
what about the emoptional issues involved.... those girls were too fucking young to even realize what was happening.... what the hellis wrong with you you cold hearted ruthless sick sonofabitch i hope you never have children you sick asshole!
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:28 PM
Again it isn't yours at that point. It's the body of another as well.
Another what? PERSON?
In any case, prior to about 24 weeks, the foetus is simply a parasite, connected to your body in much the same way as another superfluous organ, taking up nutrition and energy.
Another what? PERSON?
Precisely. There's a big difference between a parasite and a fetus, a parasite is obviously something that can hurt you, while the fetus is harmless.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:29 PM
what about the emoptional issues involved.... those girls were too fucking young to even realize what was happening.... what the hellis wrong with you you cold hearted ruthless sick sonofabitch i hope you never have children you sick asshole!
I do too, leeting him breed would be a sin against nature.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:29 PM
Precisely.
As before, you have yet to prove that a foetus is a person.
As before, you have yet to prove that a foetus is a person.
I have tried the best I can to prove it, not my fault your so blinded by your own false beliefs.
what about the emoptional issues involved.... those girls were too fucking young to even realize what was happening.... what the hellis wrong with you you cold hearted ruthless sick sonofabitch i hope you never have children you sick asshole!
If I'm coldhearted for wanting every single person conceived in the womb to have a chance to make their own mark on this world and it's people, then so be it.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:32 PM
I have tried the best I can to prove it, not my fault your so blinded by your own false beliefs.
What you have offered so far is genetic uniqueness. That is not a factor of personhood. Would you consider a clone a person? I certainly would.
False beliefs? But they have not been falsified. :P
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:32 PM
If I'm coldhearted for wanting every single person conceived in the womb to have a chance to make their own mark on this world and it's people, then so be it.
No, your coldhearted because you condone forcing women who are raped to keep their offspring.
Because again every single child in the womb deserves life. No exceptions.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:34 PM
Because again every single child in the womb deserves life. No exceptions.
So you wouldnt abort a child even if they had a condition which would cause extreme pain to them?
No I wouldn't, I would accept it and love it the best way I can. A lot of times children like that, can end up helping society as a whole actually. I went to a funeral mass this morning for a 5 1/2 year old boy who had passed recently. He couldn't talk at all during his life, had some physical problems, but anyone who ever knew him was touched by him, affected by him in some way.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:37 PM
No I wouldn't, I would accept it and love it the best way I can. A lot of times children like that, can end up helping society as a whole actually. I went to a funeral mass this morning for a 5 1/2 year old boy who had passed recently. He couldn't talk at all during his life, had some physical problems, but anyone who ever knew him was touched by him, affected by him in some way.
I would rather they died peacefully before they were born than force a painful life upon them. It would be the humane thing to do.
You don't get it, there's a reason for their suffering. God uses that suffering to impact others. He turns that negative into a positive.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:41 PM
You don't get it, there's a reason for their suffering. God uses that suffering to impact others. He turns that negative into a positive.
Why dont I get it? Because I would rather they died peacefully than go through a painful life and a painful death? Because I actually give a shit about a person's wellbeing? You are truly heartless, and not christian in the slightest.
Because you are failing to that see that through that suffering, it impacts others in the process and can change lives.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:46 PM
Because you are failing to that see that through that suffering, it impacts others in the process and can change lives.
At the expense of a feeling person? I am disgusted you call yourself christian, because most christians are more caring than you.
I stand by my comments, and if you are disgusted fine be disgusted I could care less how you or anyone like you on here perceive me. I believe what I believe and I am not ashamed of it.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:50 PM
I stand by my comments, and if you are disgusted fine be disgusted I could care less how you or anyone like you on here perceive me. I believe what I believe and am not ashamed to believe it.
You should be ashamed. If we applied your argument to everything, then we should not try to fix or prevent anything which might bring people together, like natural disasters, and disease. It could aslo be used to justify torture.
You know, if Jesus actually existed, Im sure he would be disgusted with your apathy too.
You know, if Jesus actually existed, Im sure he would be disgusted with your apathy too.
Actually no, I'm quite confident he's proud of me standing up for the truth.
You should be ashamed. If we applied your argument to everything, then we should not try to fix or prevent anything which might bring people together, like natural disasters, and disease.
You hit on the head there, these sort of people who are disabled, or handicapped do bring people together.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:52 PM
Actually no, I'm quite confident he's proud of me standing up for the truth.
Yeah, especially since you are completely going against his whole mercy teachings.
Every life has a purpose for living on this earth, including those who may be disadvantaged in some way.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:54 PM
Every life has a purpose for living on this earth, including those who may be disadvantaged in some way.
Oh really? So what was Stalin's purpose?
Obviously there are some that choose to follow their own ways instead of what God wanted for them, but just the same every life is born with some purpose. Whether they actually live up to that purpose however is another matter.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 06:57 PM
Obviously there are some that choose to follow their own ways instead of what God wanted for them, but just the same every life is born with some purpose. Whether they actually live up to that purpose however is another matter.
So then, does god deliberatley infect people with diseases because their purpose is to carry that disease?
who897
01-27-2007, 08:25 PM
Again it isn't yours at that point. It's the body of another as well. And I'll use the term fetus or baby anyway I want to thank you very much.
Just shows how ignorant you are there bub. You sorta can't call a seed a flower now can you? There is reasons why things were given names, because they are different from what something else is.
Is the clump o' cells in the woman? It's the woman's then, just like anything else that grows in woman. Deal with it sonny boy.
No it isn't, it's life. You may not like it, but you know what that's just too bad. A human being remains a human being from the point of conception until death. As such the woman has no right whatsoever to take that life away. It belongs to God first and foremost, and only he can determine when a person's life is to end, not us.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 09:09 PM
No it isn't, it's life. You may not like it, but you know what that's just too bad. A human being remains a human being from the point of conception until death. As such the woman has no right whatsoever to take that life away. It belongs to God first and foremost, and only he can determine when a person's life is to end, not us.
So God determines that a person's life ends by killing?
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 09:10 PM
You hit on the head there, these sort of people who are disabled, or handicapped do bring people together.
So then lets not try to fix these problems. You are the most uncaring bastard I have ever met.
Murder doesn't help anything, regardless of the intentions.
So God determines that a person's life ends by killing?
Obviously not, that's a result of our own free will, not God's.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 09:42 PM
Murder doesn't help anything, regardless of the intentions.
It can, in the case of euthanasia. In the case of abortion, its not murder.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 09:43 PM
Obviously not, that's a result of our own free will, not God's.
So that contradicts the idea that only god decides when we die. Additionally, it also proves god is either not all loving, or omnipotent.
No it doesn't contradict anything. God may know when He wants us to die, but at the same time if someone kills us (or we kill ourselves), that's not God's will. He would never will that. When this sort of thing happens it's our fault and ours alone.
As for your other argument, read this and then get back to me.
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/God_and_suffering.html
It can, in the case of euthanasia. In the case of abortion, its not murder.
1. The ends do not justify the means
2. Yes it is, that's still a human being in the womb, it's just in a different stage of development from us.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 10:00 PM
Precisely. There's a big difference between a parasite and a fetus, a parasite is obviously something that can hurt you, while the fetus is harmless.
Idiot. A parasite doesnt necessarily hurt someone, ever studied ecology? A parasitic organism is something which takes nutrition without giving.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 10:01 PM
1. The ends do not justify the means
I could say the exact same thing of your argument.
2. Yes it is, that's still a human being in the womb, it's just in a different stage of development from us.
For the last time, a foetus isnt a person, and murder is intentionally taking the life of another person.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 10:07 PM
Yes it is, and you are.
Once again, I unveil the truth to you: you have not definitively proven that foeti are people.
yea_thats_right1
01-27-2007, 10:09 PM
No it doesn't contradict anything. God may know when He wants us to die, but at the same time if someone kills us (or we kill ourselves), that's not God's will. He would never will that. When this sort of thing happens it's our fault and ours alone.
As for your other argument, read this and then get back to me.
http://www.inplainsite.org/html/God_and_suffering.html
jesus christ stop withthe web site bullshit ok? not everything on the internet is true... ever hear dont believe everything you read??? apply that shit to the bible... i promise you not everything in there is true... if we were born with sin then the people who "wrote" the bible could have been lying... acctually i believe that most of it is a lie to keeppeople in line.. and what better way to keep people in line then to tell them if they dont follow the rules big bad god is goiing to come kick their ass to hell.... hmm that sounds familiar... how do we keep our kids in line? "wait till your father gets home" or the all famous "sata clause is watching you and if your not good he will send you sticks but if your good he will reward you with a PS3".... i call BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
jesus christ stop withthe web site bullshit ok? not everything on the internet is true... ever hear dont believe everything you read??? apply that shit to the bible... i promise you not everything in there is true... if we were born with sin then the people who "wrote" the bible could have been lying... acctually i believe that most of it is a lie to keeppeople in line.. and what better way to keep people in line then to tell them if they dont follow the rules big bad god is goiing to come kick their ass to hell.... hmm that sounds familiar... how do we keep our kids in line? "wait till your father gets home" or the all famous "sata clause is watching you and if your not good he will send you sticks but if your good he will reward you with a PS3".... i call BULLSHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Did I ask you to read it? No, I was asking Ausnius to. This isn't any concern of yours. If I was directing it to you that would be different, but I wasn't.
yea_thats_right1
01-27-2007, 10:13 PM
you posted it to the public and dont you ever use that tone with me church boy
Still it had nothing to do with you.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 10:16 PM
Still it had nothing to do with you.
Would you mind not disrespecting her? She is far more valuable to a discussion than you.
yea_thats_right1
01-27-2007, 10:16 PM
no it was just apublic post... who it was directed towards doent matter... if you wanted it to be private then u should have sent it in a private message... otherwise i have the right to respond how i see fit.
yea_thats_right1
01-27-2007, 10:17 PM
Would you mind not disrespecting her? She is far more valuable to a discussion than you.
:D ur my favorite!
Once again, I unveil the truth to you: you have not definitively proven that foeti are people.
Alright well how about this, a fetus, baby, whatever is generally created through the act of sex, with the sperm fertilizing the egg. Tell me what other kind of bacteria can be formed in that same way.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 10:22 PM
Alright well how about this, a fetus, baby, whatever is generally created through the act of sex, with the sperm fertilizing the egg. Tell me what other kind of bacteria can be formed in that same way.
Every placental mammal does that. No duh. And by your definition, children created through IVF arent people.
Try again.
Okay, well consider that the fact that if this child (yes I am calling it that) was just a blob of cells, bacteria, or whatever don't you think the body would be trying to fight it off?
yea_thats_right1
01-27-2007, 10:25 PM
sometimesit does.... ever hear of women needing to have injections becasue the blood types dont match???
yea_thats_right1
01-27-2007, 10:26 PM
my mom had to do that with me because if not her body would have killed me... her immune system treated me as an infection...
Wow, I never knew about that before. Taking that out of the equation though, in most cases the body is not going to fight it off, since it really doesn't pose any kind of a threat to the mom (those rare cases aside).
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 10:28 PM
Okay, well consider that the fact that if this child (yes I am calling it that) was just a blob of cells, bacteria, or whatever don't you think the body would be trying to fight it off?
The body's immune system doesnt recognise said cells as a threat, thats why. Millions upon millions of bacteria live in the body already.
In some cases, the body actually does recognise it as a threat and attempts to wipe it out.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 10:29 PM
Wow, I never knew about that before. Taking that out of the equation though, in most cases the body is not going to fight it off, since it really doesn't pose any kind of a threat to the mom (those rare cases aside).
It still doesnt prove personhood, all it proves is that the body usually doesnt recognise the blastocyst as a threat.
What about that unlike any other types of organisms you might find in the body, that fetus as it grows forms limbs, organs, hair, etc.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 10:34 PM
What about that unlike any other types of organisms you might find in the body, that fetus as it grows forms limbs, organs, hair, etc.
Once again, it doesnt define personhood. Otherwise, foeti belonging to other animal species would be people too.
No they wouldn't because their bodies are different from us, so what would define them would be different from what defines us.
Ausinus
01-27-2007, 10:36 PM
No they wouldn't because their bodies are different from us, so what would define them would be different from what defines us.
Up until the later stages of foetal development, you couldnt tell the difference between human and primate or even dolphin foeti.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.1.8 Copyright © 2012 vBulletin Solutions, Inc. All rights reserved.