why such hatred to religion?

[death2chikins]

I admit I haven't been comeing here for very long but I have noticed alot of hate focused toward religions not just Christianty although that seems to be taking the brunt of the attacks but also Islam. Why is that? Why are people so opposed to religion? fear maybe? or just misunderstanding?

[who897]

I don't hate religion, hate causes wars, I dislike it,... a lot. All religion has some underlying hate. It may be subtle but it is there. Plus a lot of relgions try and hold everyone back from further advancements because of their "Moral obligations" BS. When is the last time a group of Athiest protested something in a radical and rather disturbing form? Muslims, funny little people, swear up and down they aren't violent people, but when that little pic of Mohamad came out, they rioted, rioted.....killing their own muslim brothern. More people have died in the name of a god then for any other reason. Everytime science tries to make a step forward, relgion is there, trying to stop it, because they fear science. It's been proving them wrong every step of the way.

[ajk]

I beg to differ. It's the opposite. Religion is proving science wrong. Once again it's a case of trying to logically explain that can't be explained.

[who897]

Five letters I-d-i-o-t, think before you type my little muffin cake

[death2chikins]

I don't hate religion, hate causes wars, I dislike it,... a lot. All religion has some underlying hate. It may be subtle but it is there. Plus a lot of relgions try and hold everyone back from further advancements because of their "Moral obligations" BS. When is the last time a group of Athiest protested something in a radical and rather disturbing form? Muslims, funny little people, swear up and down they aren't violent people, but when that little pic of Mohamad came out, they rioted, rioted.....killing their own muslim brothern. More people have died in the name of a god then for any other reason. Everytime science tries to make a step forward, relgion is there, trying to stop it, because they fear science. It's been proving them wrong every step of the way.

If you know this for fact then please give examples. If you can't then you are only saying what others have long said before you and therefore have no grounds to base your claims. you can teach a parrot to say anything doesn't mean it knows the meaning.

[ohreally]

I beg to differ. It's the opposite. Religion is proving science wrong. Once again it's a case of trying to logically explain that can't be explained.
Religion proving science wrong? Religion is a confused child in science class, that's all it is. ;)

[ajk]

All science is doing is trying to force things to make sense just because, when in reality we were not meant to know these sort of things. Rather we just accept it as it is.

[ohreally]

All science is doing is trying to force things to make sense just because, when in reality we were not meant to know these sort of things. Rather we just accept it as it is.
Sounds like an excuse to me. It's like someone accepting failure.

[ajk]

But how can God fail? He can't and doesn't.

[ohreally]

But how can God fail? He can't and doesn't.
I never said anything about your God failing, I'm saying why do you use religion to shoot down science? You are hinting that we should just give up. :rolleyes:

[ajk]

You don't get what I'm saying. God created things this way, so it can't be wrong. He's your God too incidentally, don't forget that.

[ohreally]

You don't get what I'm saying. God created things this way, so it can't be wrong. He's your God too incidentally, don't forget that.
What!? IM NOT Talking about right and wrong, and YOUR GOD. I'm talking about you saying we should just give up on science! It's almost like an excuse to you. "Oh we can avoid facts & research in our nature because I believe in fairy tales!"

[ajk]

No I never said we should give up on science, you're putting words in my mouth. Science is good for many things, but when it comes to things like creation, science doesn't belong there.

[ohreally]

No I never said we should give up on science, you're putting words in my mouth. Science is good for many things, but when it comes to things like creation, science doesn't belong there.
You don't have to take interest into any of the theories that science provides, but to say science doesn't belong there is wrong. It does belong there. Yeah - let's put all of our work down because the cult says so. I think it's a great thing to have science involved in this. Why? Because you never know what you will uncover next. ;)

[who897]

If you know this for fact then please give examples. If you can't then you are only saying what others have long said before you and therefore have no grounds to base your claims. you can teach a parrot to say anything doesn't mean it knows the meaning.


Example ok, AJK.

[ajk]

That's way out of context, these things have been accepted for years, and as I said before God created it this way so he can't be wrong.

[who897]

What a cop out response.

[ohreally]

That's way out of context, these things have been accepted for years, and as I said before God created it this way so he can't be wrong.
More like your crazy cult created it this way so I guess they can't be wrong since they brainwashed you. :rolleyes:

Anyhow, it sounds like you can't respond to the context - so you go back to your God says so escape. What's new. :rolleyes:

[ajk]

No it's been this way for 2,000 years. It's only changed to some in recent time. You guys are the ones that have been brainwashed by the culture. People such as myself know what is right and what is wrong. People like you have been suckered into believing what the world says, no matter how offbase it may be.

[ohreally]

No it's been this way for 2,000 years. It's only changed to some in recent time. You guys are the ones that have been brainwashed by the culture. People such as myself know what is right and what is wrong. People like you have been suckered into believing what the world says, no matter how offbase it may be.
So what is Santa bringing you for Christmas, he's been around for a while, right.... :rolleyes:

[ajk]

No there's no Santa, never was and you know that. There was a St. Nicholas however.

[ohreally]

No there's no Santa
Are you sure? Because you wouldn't want to make a mistake like not putting out cookies - else you'll get coal! :rolleyes:

[ajk]

I don't see how any of this is relevant to the topic at hand.

[ohreally]

I don't see how any of this is relevant to the topic at hand.
Of course not... :rolleyes:

[ohreally]

More reasons why people hate religion:

President Bush: 'I'm driven with a mission from God. God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did. And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, "Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East." And by God I'm gonna do it.'"

[ajk]

There's a reason certain people hate religion. It's because their minds can't understand it, and they refuse to try to.

[ohreally]

There's a reason certain people hate religion. It's because their minds can't understand it, and they refuse to try to.
Because it's fake.

[ajk]

Not really, you just have to have an open mind about it. Obviously you do not, so to you there is no God and so on and so forth.

[ohreally]

Not really, you just have to have an open mind about it. Obviously you do not, so to you there is no God and so on and so forth.
So when Bush used God's statements - were they true? Nobody buys that, unless they are a fools.

The reason people hate religion, is because they try to change laws to go by their goofy laws. They try to tell others how it should be when in reality the gov is trying to be fair. You need to realize that.

[ajk]

How do you know? God probably did speak to Bush, as he speaks to all of us at some point whether we realize that or not. And they are not goofy laws. They were put in place to protect us from ourselves really. You try and go against it, and look what happens. The world as we know it today, one full of immorality and murder, a Godless society as it were, is what you get.

[ohreally]

How do you know? God probably did speak to Bush
OH PLEASE - DO YOU REALLY BELIEVE THAT! ARE YOU THAT DUMB! :eek:

[ajk]

Is it dumb to believe in something higher then myself? Is it dumb to think that everything happens for a reason, and we are all connected? Is it dumb for me to believe that God does speak to us? Well if it is, I'd rather be dumb then not believe in anything at all. What be our purpose in life if there was no God? Why are we here then?

[ohreally]

Is it dumb to believe in something higher then myself? Is it dumb to think that everything happens for a reason, and we are all connected? Is it dumb for me to believe that God does speak to us? Well if it is, I'd rather be dumb then not believe in anything at all. What be our purpose in life if there was no God? Why are we here then?
I asked you if actually believe what he said about God. I feel that your God was taken advantage of. Evil politics maybe?

[ajk]

I'm not gonna call Bush a liar, I'll say that. I won't judge him on his comments. Maybe God spoke to him, maybe not I don't know that and neither do you. It is true sometimes God can be taken advantage of. A good example of that is when people who never would pray to Him otherwise do so in a time of crisis. Then when that crisis is over, He is ignored again. It becomes a "What have you done for me lately?' type of thing.

[who897]

Is it dumb to believe in something higher then myself? Is it dumb to think that everything happens for a reason, and we are all connected? Is it dumb for me to believe that God does speak to us? Well if it is, I'd rather be dumb then not believe in anything at all. What be our purpose in life if there was no God? Why are we here then?




Yep, it's fucking dumb. Actually you are dumb already for believing in that shit. I purpose be, G, that we be here, we live our "own" lives, reproduce, educate ourselves as much as possible, and eventually die.

They say the best way to a solution is the simplest answer. Life is simple, you live to die, that's what makes it so great, why everything loves life, because it is too short to really get all side tracked by that thing yall call god. Really no reason for it at all, it just takes away you from living your life.

[ajk]

Well if that makes me dumb, then so be it. I'd be dumb then think that we live to die, because that makes no sense at all. No wonder society is what it is today, because according to you know since we live to die nothing we do really matters. Because of that belief the world as we know it is so full of sin it's unbelievable.

As far as being sidetracked by God, it doesn't take away from our lives at all. If anything it makes life better. You notice religious people tend to be happier then those not religious? That's why, because they have the Holy Spirit guiding them along, and everything they do revolves around Him in some way.

[who897]

See, that's an idiotic statement, just because we live to die does not mean what we do with our lives means nothing. In fact it means everything, our lives are truely all we ever really have and we cherish it, we do what we please with it, and this rediculous shit about "ohh you don't believe in god so why do you still wanna live" shit is a bullshit cop out at trying to undermind people just trying to live their lives. I swear yall are some very intrusive MoFo's.

[ajk]

See you got all wrong. Sure life is something to be cherished, but at the same time shouldn't we have some responsibility with what we do as well? If we live to die, and do whatever we want, then why can't we go shoot people we don't like, or cheat people out of money, etc, etc.

It doesn't work, when you have no accountibility for yourself, no one to answer to, it creates mass chaos, which is basically what we got in todays world. By having God as a part of this life, we have that accountibility, that reason to not do certain things, because we know we'll have to answer for that down the line.

[who897]

See you got all wrong. Sure life is something to be cherished, but at the same time shouldn't we have some responsibility with what we do as well? If we live to die, and do whatever we want, then why can't we go shoot people we don't like, or cheat people out of money, etc, etc.

It doesn't work, when you have no accountibility for yourself, no one to answer to, it creates mass chaos, which is basically what we got in todays world. By having God as a part of this life, we have that accountibility, that reason to not do certain things, because we know we'll have to answer for that down the line.


We have resposiblity, it's called laws and consiquesnces. And just cuz we live to die, does not mean whe do what ever we want on a whim, we know the consiquences that will be passed to us, by the laws of "MAN" for doing certain acts. That makes no sense about accountablity. We are already accountable to ourselves, which really just means we are responsible for our own lives. Yeah, we got mass chaos, so did you hear about the riots in Boulder CO, cuz you know, the chaos there was freakin outta control. By having a god you dilute yourself into thinking everything is happening for a reason, and that these little idea's about abortion, divorce, premarital sex, etc etc are god's will, when in fact it was just a couple of people thinking that they should be done and the rest of you fools belieiving it to be absolute truth.

[ajk]

Believe me things do happen for a reason. I'll give you an example. I myself am going through an ongoing battle with pornography. Well one day I was talking after class with my broadcasting professor about different things, and I ended up telling him about my struggles with this. He gave me some really good advice, and it has helped me quite a bit as the days have gone on. I firmly believe that God had something to do with me telling him about that that day, so that through that conversation (and subsequent ones in the days following), I could slowly begin to overcome this addiction, one that plagued me for many years of my life. So whether you realize it or not, God is with us, and he guides us throughout our lives in various ways, even in nonbelievers such as yourself.

[who897]

That has about as much relevince as a can of beans in this converstation.

[ajk]

I beg to differ, it has a lot to do with this conversation. You said that things don't happen for a reason. I pretty much proved that to be incorrect. How is that not relevant?

[ohreally]

Believe me things do happen for a reason. I'll give you an example. I myself am going through an ongoing battle with pornography. Well one day I was talking after class with my broadcasting professor about different things, and I ended up telling him about my struggles with this. He gave me some really good advice, and it has helped me quite a bit as the days have gone on.
How did that happen for a reason? You were the one to pursuit the issue. It's not like he went "AJK, God told me about your struggles." ;)

It happened for a reason because you made it happen, not because some miracle. :rolleyes:

[death2chikins]

The last post i made i ask for you to give examples of how science has proven relgion wrong. You provided none instead you go on the attack and accuse ajk of being dumb. If you know you are right then why the lack of response to my call for proof? After all it should be easy enough to prove facts right? It doesn't require faith or so you imply. So what's the hold up?

The laws of man like all things in this world has a history. It has a beginning do you know what that history is? I'll tell you The laws of man are based of the laws of relgion. Don't believe me, good then do your homework and prove me wrong. If man's life has no other purpose than to die then man is no different than any animal that walks this planet and is therefore subject only to the laws of nature. the law of nature is chaos not order. Kill or be killed, eat or be eaten, rape, murder, slavery, cannibalism are all acceptable under the law of nature because they all occur in nature. Therefore for man to place himself above those things by trying to create order from chaos he is breaking the laws of nature and proving he is above nature and thus more than just and animal who's only purpose is to be born, breed, and die.

[ajk]

Well put there.

[ajk]

How did that happen for a reason? You were the one to pursuit the issue. It's not like he went "AJK, God told me about your struggles." ;)

It happened for a reason because you made it happen, not because some miracle. :rolleyes:

What I mean is I feel God put me in that situation so that through it He could use that as a way for me to turn my life around. Obviously I have to want to of course, but He planted that seed to begin with.

[who897]

The last post i made i ask for you to give examples of how science has proven relgion wrong. You provided none instead you go on the attack and accuse ajk of being dumb. If you know you are right then why the lack of response to my call for proof? After all it should be easy enough to prove facts right? It doesn't require faith or so you imply. So what's the hold up?

The laws of man like all things in this world has a history. It has a beginning do you know what that history is? I'll tell you The laws of man are based of the laws of relgion. Don't believe me, good then do your homework and prove me wrong. If man's life has no other purpose than to die then man is no different than any animal that walks this planet and is therefore subject only to the laws of nature. the law of nature is chaos not order. Kill or be killed, eat or be eaten, rape, murder, slavery, cannibalism are all acceptable under the law of nature because they all occur in nature. Therefore for man to place himself above those things by trying to create order from chaos he is breaking the laws of nature and proving he is above nature and thus more than just and animal who's only purpose is to be born, breed, and die.


I did respond, my example was AJK, i distintly put, Eample ok AJK.

[ohreally]

God put me in that situation so that through it He could use that as a way for me to turn my life around. Obviously I have to want to of course, but He planted that seed to begin with.
One time I wanted to pick my nose but I thought my nose would bleed. I thank God for planting that seed to prevent me from making bad choices. :cool:

[England Expects]

"The last post i made i ask for you to give examples of how science has proven relgion wrong."

Darwins theory of evolution by natural selection is enough proof for me. Sounds much more plausible than some crack-pot idea that earth was created a couple of thousand years ago, in 6 days (how long is a day if there's no earth?) by some supernatural being.

Also the proof that the world is not in the centre of the universe and is not flat.

[death2chikins]

Darwins theory of evolution by natural selection is enough proof for me.

Darwin's theory of evolution is flawed. Darwin himself said that in order for people to believe his theory they must reject the fossil record. Why? surely if Darwin is correct than the fossil record should support his theory. But the thing is it doesn't. The idea of one creature turning into another by means of evolution has been proven false. This isn't religion speaking this is science itself. For instance their are 34 different phyla (body types) on earth today. All 34 came into existance 530 million years ago during the Cambrain age. structures such as limbs, claws, complex eyes, and intestines all appeared in this time peroid. The fossils that predate this peroid show no sign of this generation. In fact all fossils before this peroid consist of bacteria, algae, and protozoans. The most basic of life a far cry from animals with teeth and claws isn't it. Also the fact that no new phyla has evolved since the Cambrian explosion also casts doubts of Darwin's theory. The orgin of life you speak so highly of gives no explanation of why this happened. In fact according to Macro evolution it should not have happen. There should be a direct line between animals something like sponge to worm to mollusks but there isn't. The fossil record shows all these things comeing into exsitance at roughly the same time. As far as Mirco evolution goes it is nothing more than adaptation noone can argue about that. afterall you only have to look at dogs to see it. Through selective breeding man as created several types of dogs but they are still dogs. Infact selective breeding itself is nothing more than fast Mirco evolution we keep the traits we want and breed out the ones we don't but as long as man has used this system on dogs they have never nor will they ever produce anything but more dogs.

[death2chikins]

Darwins theory of evolution by natural selection is enough proof for me. Sounds much more plausible than some crack-pot idea that earth was created a couple of thousand years ago, in 6 days (how long is a day if there's no earth?) by some supernatural being.

Also the proof that the world is not in the centre of the universe and is not flat.

We know that the Earth is not the center of the Universe. We know today that it is not flat. We also know it is millions of years old not thousands. The thing you seem to fail to realize is that these theories were put forth by men not by God. As far as i am aware nowhere in the bible does it claim any of these things. In fact it doesn't even mention any of these things. So when science did prove these theories wrong they only proved men wrong not the bible. So how could they have proven that there is no God. Also you may want to study the big bang theory alil and also how time and gravity are related. Most modern science accepts that the universe had a beginning. That before the big bang there was nothing no energy no matter nothing. Then with this one event all matter and energy came into existance thus so did time.

[who897]

I believe w/ the big bang theory, everything is colapsing into itself, then it hits a terminal point and explodes outward, only to be drawn back in, add flour mix repeat.

[England Expects]

If anyone was to produce irreputable proof of the non-existance of God, they probably wouldn't have the courage to publish it. The hopes and apsirations of millions of people would be ripped away from them in a second. All the dreamers who think they're going to heaven will suddenly have to accept that life is temporary. Darwin wrote Origin of Species 21 years before he had the balls to publish it, because of fear of persecution for heresy. He had to include a "get-out" clause.

There was a TV documentary over here a while ago about the teaching of creationism and evolution in the US. There was a teacher who was adamant that evolution of any kind was impossible, that dinosaurs are a heretical conspiracy and that the earth is a few thousand years old (I forget how many he said). How can Christians be trusted to tell the truth, when you all contradict each other?

[death2chikins]

If anyone was to produce irreputable proof of the non-existance of God, they probably wouldn't have the courage to publish it. The hopes and apsirations of millions of people would be ripped away from them in a second. All the dreamers who think they're going to heaven will suddenly have to accept that life is temporary. Darwin wrote Origin of Species 21 years before he had the balls to publish it, because of fear of persecution for heresy. He had to include a "get-out" clause.

"In my most extreme fluctuations I have never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existance of a God" Charles Darwin

"Another source of conviction in the existance of God follows from the impossibility of conceiving this immense and wonderful universe, including man with his capacity for looking far backwards and far into futurity as the result of blind chance or necessity" Charles Darwin

"Science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind" Albert Einstein

I have no fear of being proven wrong and whould not assualt any idea that could be proven with facts, reason, and solid proof. Infact I would embrace such a thing. I have no false assumptions that my ideas are the only ones are even the right ones. If i am in error in my way of belief then i welcome someone to challenge them. But to challenge my faith in God with nothing more than flawed science is no challenge. Since one is just as valid as the other.


There was a TV documentary over here a while ago about the teaching of creationism and evolution in the US. There was a teacher who was adamant that evolution of any kind was impossible, that dinosaurs are a heretical conspiracy and that the earth is a few thousand years old (I forget how many he said). How can Christians be trusted to tell the truth, when you all contradict each other?

I have seen and heard of stuff along those lines to. The idea of the Earth being thousand of years old not millions was put forth by Arch bishop Ussher of Canterbury in 1650 he calculated the earth being born in the year 4004 B.C. There are still those who follow his theory but the vast majority of christians know it is wrong. Asfar as christians contradicting each other perhaps on certain things but the base of Chrisainty the foundation it is built on is the same. Christ was born, Christ died for the sins of the world, Christ rose one the third day. But if you feel christains contradict ourselves and therefore can not be trusted to speak the truth then can the same not be said of science?

[who897]

Religion is Bunk Thomas Edison

[England Expects]

Anyone watching that nut of a teacher would think "Hey, if that's what the Christians think, I'm with Darwin!"

Its seems to me that in the debate, Christians tend to attack evolution theory rather than explaining their views of creation (please feel free to). There are fewer "FACTS" to support creation than there are evolution.

[ajk]

Fair enough, but let me ask you this, how would we as people exist if there wasn't someone to create us to begin with? The way creation is explained through science doesn't really explain that aspect of things.

[who897]

And someone saying something went "POOF" and here we are isn't really a good explination either.

[ajk]

Maybe not, but it makes more sense really. How could anyone know all this about the big bang and such if no one was there to see it? Granted God's creating it is the same sort of idea, BUT only He is said to have done it, not someone who wasn't alive at the time of "natural evolution".

[who897]

What happens if we are just an electron, floating around an atom. This atom is just one part of an apple?

[England Expects]

Darwins model of evolution theory doesnt answer all the questions. Religious scolars, intelligent men with an agenda, have been picking fault with it for 150 years.

Creation theory has more questions than logical answers, which in my experience its followers go out of their way to avoid answering.

If we were "created", I'd like to know:

When?
From what?
By who?
Where is he/she?
What were his/her beginings?
How do Human beings fit onto the historical timeline of the world?

[who897]

Darwins model of evolution theory doesnt answer all the questions. Religious scolars, intelligent men with an agenda, have been picking fault with it for 150 years.

Creation theory has more questions than logical answers, which in my experience its followers go out of their way to avoid answering.

If we were "created", I'd like to know:

When?
From what?
By who?
Where is he/she?
What were his/her beginings?
How do Human beings fit onto the historical timeline of the world?

What he/she/it eats and drinks
Does he/she/it take poops


Actually then, if we were created, wouldn't we just be figmintes of someone's imagination, not really anything at all? In which case we really wouldn't have to do anything because no matter if you believe in heaven/hell/nothingness it would still just be a figminte of someone's (your gods) imagination. We would really just be lacking substance and depth.

[England Expects]

Interesting that none of you Christians want to help me understand what you believe.

[death2chikins]

Sorry it took be so long to reply England. I was not intentionally avoiding your questions. The problem with Darwin's model is that it is wrong the fossil records prove it. His train of thought was on the right track i will give him that but he failed to carry through and he did take alot of his assumptions as facts which is why he is wrong. I will admit that it was not entirely his doing he just didn't know noone at that time did but we have learned much since then. I am not saying the model should be thrown out only reworked to fit what we now know of the fossil record. Afterall which is more accurate Darwin's idea or the bones of the animals that were here? I choose the bones.

Now i'll try to answer your when how questions the best i can. I admit i am no expert so please forgive any any mistakes with regard to math.

when? Science says the universe was born between 10 billion to 20 billion years ago (depending on who you ask).

From what? well that is a tough question. science says before the big bang there was nothing no universe no matter of energy nothing so it can't explain this question either so it must come form faith and faith tells us God.

By who? again the answer must come from faith again faith says God. Science cannot look beyond the big bang infact it can only go so far as milliseconds after the big bang occured.

Where is he/she? He is everywhere we were created from him so he is a part of everything therefore he is everywhere.

what was his/her beginnings? God hads no beginnings and no end he is eternal.

How does humans fit into the historical timeline of the world? Depends on how you define humans. humans as defined by christianty began roughly 6,000 years ago. that is when we believe God gave us souls.

[England Expects]

Science dates the Earth at around 4 billion years (that's UK billion not US).

Genesis tells us that God created man on day 5, which you say was 6k years ago?

If creationism is to be correct, surely human life is 4 days younger than the earth???:confused:

[death2chikins]

Science dates the Earth at around 4 billion years (that's UK billion not US).

Genesis tells us that God created man on day 5, which you say was 6k years ago?

If creationism is to be correct, surely human life is 4 days younger than the earth???:confused:

A few thoughts.

First man was made at the end of day six. (i say made because in biblical text as i understand it there is a difference between made and create) The bibical timeline begans with Adam the "six days" prior to Adam are not or aleast should not be included in that timeline atleast not literal six earth days. However we must remember that time is relative to a persons point of perspective. Using earth days to describe cosmic events is in folly. We must use a cosmic "clock" inorder to truly understand cosmic events. This is where it gets tricky.

Second the bible's main concern is man's relationship to God and not really how God created the universe. So from a biblical point of view the creation itself is not important and is therefore condensed. But what is interesting is the flow of events that is described in the biblical creation. I won't get into that in this post but perhaps if your curious enough about it you could look for yourself.

Lastly if I may. I am speaking to the christians on this point. There is no reason why science and the bible should be at odds. Infact as christians we should incourage science at every available chance. As long as the ethics of that science do not conflict with social or religious morals. My point being that the bible tells us what God did but not how. Science can. Through the study of science we can see how the creator did what he did and through that knowledge learn to serve him better.

[England Expects]

The bible I have clearly says the fifth day.

It also says

"Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness"

Hang on a minute?? Our??

How can it be plural?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Chikins. You seem to be the only christian on here that is confident in his faith and not frightened of science.:)

[death2chikins]

The bible I have clearly says the fifth day.

It also says

"Let us make man in our image, according to our likeness"

Hang on a minute?? Our??

How can it be plural?

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions Chikins. You seem to be the only christian on here that is confident in his faith and not frightened of science.:)

All biblical text i have read including my own bible places man's creation at the end of the sixth day.

It is plural because christians believe in the trinty. God the father, God the son, and God the holy spirit. Three forms of the same thing. That thing being God. It may sound confussing or even as being conflicting. How can they be only be one God but a holy trinty. The answer is rather simple though aleast in my own train of thought. Think of god like a triangle. One object made of three sides. Those sides are straight lines and therefore single objects themselves. Each side represents a form of God but also form a singal object the triangle. One object made of three objects. Then again maybe not so simple. Perhaps I need a better metaphor.

Happy to answer any questions i can. As i stated before i see no reason for a conflict between science and religion. As i see it they work togather to give us the whole picture. What is to fear in that?

[England Expects]

I think I've read the text wrong, Chikins, although the copy I have is the "New World Translation" that a Jehovah's Witness friend of mine gave to me.

It could mean anything!!!

[death2chikins]

I think I've read the text wrong, Chikins, although the copy I have is the "New World Translation" that a Jehovah's Witness friend of mine gave to me.

It could mean anything!!!

I have no clue what the Jehovah witnesses believe so i suppose it could mean anything. Beware strangers bearing gifts.:D just my opinion

[England Expects]

To me they're just like any other Christians; decent people with beliefs and ideas that I just cant get my head around.

[death2chikins]

To me they're just like any other Christians; decent people with beliefs and ideas that I just cant get my head around.

Then all there is to do is ask questions. It's the only way we are able to understand anyone. And i doubt they are like other christians seeing how christians aren't like other christians if that makes any sense.

[England Expects]

I've spent the last 15 years asking my friends, and I'm still no closer to understanding!

Sure, I know what they believe, but rather than trying to understand it, I just accept that I don't, if that makes sense?

[bullshitter_the great]

I believe that we should never let the science stop developing whatever is our religion, Basically the aim of any religion is to save people and let them live a good and peaceful life; so basicall it should let the humans go with the science, We should believe in science before believing in any religion.

[General Septem]

To me they're just like any other Christians; decent people with beliefs and ideas that I just cant get my head around.

You can't get your head around the fact that love for one's neighbor is the only way to true peace?

[beelzebub]

I believe that we should never let the science stop developing whatever our religion, Basically the aim of any religion is to save people and let them live a good and peaceful life; so basicall it should let the humans go with the science, We should believe in science before believing in any religion.

I agree. Science has brought humans a better life, not religion.

IT is the way, the truth and the light.

[General Septem]

I agree. Science has brought humans a better life, not religion.

IT is the way, the truth and the light.

As Einstein once said, science without religion is lame, and religion without science is blind. I believe in science and religion, as both seek the truth. One through cerebral means, and one through spiritual means.

[freakazoid]

I agree. Science has brought humans a better life, not religion.

IT is the way, the truth and the light.

beelzebub, human beings use many avenues to seek and understand truth, science is just one of them (and not the only one), BUT, it can and has been just as much of a failure as any other road has been. Your statement fails to recognize that though science has given humanity a lot of great things, it has also been just as evil and a failure numerous times as other roads such as religion have been. Science is not a perfect road to truth. Don't forget, so-called "science" has also given us lies and its own superstitions, weapons of mass destruction, pollution, and the like. It is true that science has provided us awesome advancements that, as an example, we would not be talking on this chat room without. No doubt that science has done great things, but it has also down many evil things and given power to many evil people. Simply put; it is far from perfect as are the various religious pursuits of humans. It has not always been “the way, truth and light” by a long shot.

[beelzebub]

beelzebub, human beings use many avenues to seek and understand truth, science is just one of them (and not the only one), BUT, it can and has been just as much of a failure as any other road has been.

I totally disagree. I see it as a path to enlightenment but it is in no way cluttered with the garbage that other paths are cluttered with. Most religions (especially christianity) are filled with nonsense and bunk.


Science is not a perfect road to truth. Don't forget, so-called "science" has also given us lies and its own superstitions, weapons of mass destruction, pollution, and the like.

This statement assumes that science is a single entity. Science is a practice that men employ. When they use it for the wrong means the wrong ends are the outcome.


Simply put; it is far from perfect as are the various religious pursuits of humans. It has not always been “the way, truth and light” by a long shot.

Thats where you are wrong. Science is perfect. It can explain anything in our realm.

[freakazoid]

I totally disagree. I see it as a path to enlightenment but it is in no way cluttered with the garbage that other paths are cluttered with. Most religions (especially christianity) are filled with nonsense and bunk.



This statement assumes that science is a single entity. Science is a practice that men employ. When they use it for the wrong means the wrong ends are the outcome.



Thats where you are wrong. Science is perfect. It can explain anything in our realm.
RE: " Thats where you are wrong. Science is perfect. It can explain anything in our realm."

"Science is perfect?!" http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon13.gif LMAO!! Man, have you got a lot to learn! Science has been claiming that human beings "evolved" from rocks for years without a single conclusive scientific observation of that claim. NOT ONE! (No observation, NO science). No one has EVER observed "evolution" (i.e.; transmutation from one "lower species" to another "higher species"), NO ONE...

...They claim "from the goo, through the zoo to you!" NOT!!...


The Face:

Piltdown Man went from being one of the biggest discoveries of the 20th Century to being its greatest scientific embarrassment. On 21 November 1953, the fossils discovered 40 years earlier and acclaimed as the "missing link" between apes and humans were finally revealed to be forgeries. Today, the word Piltdown is a term of abuse, used to label any fraudulent or shoddy research. Click through these pages to read more about the fake hominid...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/sci_nat/03/piltdown_man/html/default.stm



so much for "science."

Next!...

[death2chikins]

I totally disagree. I see it as a path to enlightenment but it is in no way cluttered with the garbage that other paths are cluttered with. Most religions (especially christianity) are filled with nonsense and bunk. .

The common factor between science and religion is humans. Everything humans do either for science or religion is flawed in some way or the other it can be no other way. Humans are not perfect so any tool created by humans cannot be perfect science included. Christianity (for my stand point anyway) is a personal journey undertaken by the indiviual so any broad comparision between christianity as a whole and any other human venture must be between the source of all christianity (namely the bible) and that which you wish to compare it to.




This statement assumes that science is a single entity. Science is a practice that men employ. When they use it for the wrong means the wrong ends are the outcome..

i believe you are right in assuming that science is not a single entity. They are many different fields to science and comparing one field to another is not really that fair. However on the other side of that same coin no field in science can stand on it's own as an explantion for anything. Even fields of science which on the surface don't seem to have anything in common can prove or disprove each other.




Thats where you are wrong. Science is perfect. It can explain anything in our realm.

It can not explain everything in or realm. For example, What caused the big bang? Science can not answer this question and there are others as well.

[beelzebub]

The common factor between science and religion is humans. Everything humans do either for science or religion is flawed in some way or the other it can be no other way. Humans are not perfect so any tool created by humans cannot be perfect science included.

Logic is logic whether human or any other species creates it. Science is logic personified. Therefore I disagree with you completely. Humans may pervert science but the principles of scientific inquiry are perfect.


However on the other side of that same coin no field in science can stand on it's own as an explantion for anything. Even fields of science which on the surface don't seem to have anything in common can prove or disprove each other.

Ok.... so that proves what?


It can not explain everything in or realm. For example, What caused the big bang? Science can not answer this question and there are others as well.

The origin and cause of the big bang are outside of our reality.

[who897]

The difference isn't the humans who run it. True Religion is all lies and deciet, ways of controling the masses through fear. True science is "NEVER" wrong, that's why it is called a science and not a practice. Science is about seeking the truth to something, relgion clouds it and bends it to make it seem all fluffy and nice.

[death2chikins]

Logic is logic whether human or any other species creates it. Science is logic personified. Therefore I disagree with you completely. Humans may pervert science but the principles of scientific inquiry are perfect..

What is logic but only an invention of the human mind. Bears, birds, lizards, and fish don't concern themselves with logic. The princicples of scientific inquiry you hold up so high is another invention of the human mind and cannot be perfect by default.


The origin and cause of the big bang are outside of our reality.

The big bang created everything in the universe how can it be considered outside our reality if it was the starting point for our reality.

[beelzebub]

What is logic but only an invention of the human mind. Bears, birds, lizards, and fish don't concern themselves with logic. The princicples of scientific inquiry you hold up so high is another invention of the human mind and cannot be perfect by default.

Logic exists and we discovered it through science.


The big bang created everything in the universe how can it be considered outside our reality if it was the starting point for our reality.

It is outside our reality because prior to it and the moment that it began all the laws of the universe did not exist. We are only able to speculate as to what caused it or what it was like before the big bang. Our reality is governed by these principles therefore that is outside of our reality.

[normlman]

It's funny to review a discussion board trying to differ science from religion.
The human mind is a natural jedi knight when it comes to questioning issues of topics such as this.
Religion has its record of a very violent history. NO excuse for our primitive ancestors, despite their brilliance, inability to decipher the fact of the matter, etc.
For example: All life is energy. The power of prayer is a perfect example. I believe that prayer is a very true, and real avenue of miracles and the such. Because of the consolidated effort of a mass or group of people bonding together in prayer, fostering all their mental efforts towards a goal. Change comes to pass, changes that cannot be explained by a text-book or science lab. Humankind has existed since the dawn of time and never takes notice to a most obvious explanation. Therefore man tries to understand and then explain, and personifies this by giving credit to a god? It really troubles me that no insight has ever been directed toward a study such as this.
Everything we've been taught from childhood, and practiced out of tradition is wrong. God is a very real energy, but so is misfortune, crisis, and tragedy.
Faith, the full submission and acceptance of ones spiritual belief, and mental channel of thought is just as freaking powerful. But we cannot be taught these things during our childlike stage of mentality. It would just create more oposition, chaos, loss of organizational control of societies, etc.

Science is simply trying to develop a hard, physical evidence for all things in life. Science has not yet reached the stage that it can explain the mental energies that we all obtain. Even concentrated minds who devote themselves diligently into a state of meditation cannot grasp this.
In life we all have a plan/role to play. Our individual energies are so great that this can be no other way. Even if that role is for nothing more than to set a bad example.
We allow science to hijack our minds into becoming convinced that all the world is is a purely physical world. Which is a quite valid assumption for many tasks in life, because physics are the laws that rule this physical world, but we as a species rob ourselves from our own power by becoming hypnotized by fact vs. faith. Science does not compete with religion. Religion is just so far ahead of science that it becomes lost in itself. We as a family of friends can give that thanks to our ancestors who were as obsessed by power, greed, and control that they never stopped to take stock of 'all' that they were capable of.
As a species on this Earth we will evolve our understandings more with each waking day. The day that we can all exist with the tranquil understanding of the power that is yielded to our bodies and minds trapped in this modem of skin is a day that I cannot foresee, considering todays current social-religious-political quagmire.
But I must ask of all of you as brothers and sisters of the same creature. Lets open our hearts and minds to a new understanding; unless we start to take control of fragile situations such as violence, power, racist, bigotist hate being cross-bred with religion; and then trying to pit religion against science? we will continue to spiral in an infinite, out of control manner.

p.s.
All of the aforementioned is just a personal view from a friend to all. Disregard it you wish.
But we're all grown-ass adults here. Story time & childs play is over!

sincerely & respectfully,
NORMLman

[England Expects]

General,

Sorry for the late reply.

You said

"You can't get your head around the fact that love for one's neighbor is the only way to true peace?"

I thought the acceptance of Christ as my saviour is the only way to true peace? Maybe you could get me a map to "true peace" because it seems there are many ways to get there.

This is where I'm confused you see. Islam teaches that you should love your neighbour, but you distance yourself from them because they dont accept the divinity of their prophet Isa.

What's more important, to believe that Christ was divine, or to live your life according to the principles of his teachings?

[General Septem]

I thought the acceptance of Christ as my saviour is the only way to true peace? Maybe you could get me a map to "true peace" because it seems there are many ways to get there.

You can't accept Christ as your saviour if you don't love your neighbor. It just doesn't work. It would make you a hypocrite.


This is where I'm confused you see. Islam teaches that you should love your neighbour, but you distance yourself from them because they dont accept the divinity of their prophet Isa.

Christianity is not Islam. Jesus didn't distance Himself from anyone, leper, Roman, blind man, scribe, pharisee, samaritan, poor people, widows - Jesus spent time with them all.

When Jesus said, regarding converting sinners, "then they shall be as tax collectors and sinners to you," it seems like He is saying to avoid them, or that you no longer have to talk to them. But remember, Jesus ate dinner with tax collectors and "sinners". One of His disciples (Matthew) was a tax collector.


What's more important, to believe that Christ was divine, or to live your life according to the principles of his teachings?

Since believeing in Christ's divinity is one of the principles of His teachings, you can't really say His teachings were more important, because that was one of them. ;)

[England Expects]

"You can't accept Christ as your saviour if you don't love your neighbor. It just doesn't work. It would make you a hypocrite."

This I accept, but it is possible to love your neighbour WITHOUT accepting Christ.

My own belief of Jesus is that he was a terrific philosopher and moralist. It's clear that he was an enigmatic leader and its true that western civilisation is heavily influenced by the moral code that he stood for (although we keep fucking it up by bombing poor people).

If I dont accept Christ as being divine, but love my neighbour, am I on the path to true peace?

[General Septem]

"You can't accept Christ as your saviour if you don't love your neighbor. It just doesn't work. It would make you a hypocrite."

This I accept, but it is possible to love your neighbour WITHOUT accepting Christ.

My own belief of Jesus is that he was a terrific philosopher and moralist. It's clear that he was an enigmatic leader and its true that western civilisation is heavily influenced by the moral code that he stood for (although we keep fucking it up by bombing poor people).

If I dont accept Christ as being divine, but love my neighbour, am I on the path to true peace?

But if you don't accept Christ as your saviour, then you have no choice but to condemn yourself and everyone else in the name of world peace, because we all have committed some kind of crime against it.

[beelzebub]

But if you don't accept Christ as your saviour, then you have no choice but to condemn yourself and everyone else.... bla bla bla ....


"It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

[General Septem]

"It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven."

Except nobody rules in hell and nobody serves in Heaven, so that really doesn't work.

You know who ruled in a worldly Hell? Hitler.

[beelzebub]

Except nobody rules in hell and nobody serves in Heaven, so that really doesn't work.
You know who ruled in a worldly Hell? Hitler.

You don't read a lot do you?

[General Septem]

You don't read a lot do you?

I don't, but I do know that was a quote from Milton.

[beelzebub]

I don't, but I do know that was a quote from Milton.

Google is a wonderful thing isn't it.

[General Septem]

Google is a wonderful thing isn't it.

No, Star Trek is a wonderful thing. :D

[beelzebub]

No, Star Trek is a wonderful thing. :D

I prefer the Next Generation. I love Picard, Riker, Troi, Data, Worf & Geordi

[General Septem]

I prefer the Next Generation. I love Picard, Riker, Troi, Data, Worf & Geordi

I don't watch much Star Trek anymore, but I knew that quote was from Milton because Khan Noonien Singh quoted it in the original series.

[beelzebub]

I don't watch much Star Trek anymore, but I knew that quote was from Milton because Khan Noonien Singh quoted it in the original series.

OHHHHHH One for the General! :D Thats good GS! Very good!

[England Expects]

"But if you don't accept Christ as your saviour, then you have no choice but to condemn yourself and everyone else in the name of world peace, because we all have committed some kind of crime against it."

Incoherent drivel.

[beelzebub]

"But if you don't accept Christ as your saviour,... bla bla bla ...kind of crime against it."

Incoherent drivel.

YOu got that right EE!

[General Septem]

"But if you don't accept Christ as your saviour, then you have no choice but to condemn yourself and everyone else in the name of world peace, because we all have committed some kind of crime against it."

Incoherent drivel.

It seems pretty clear to me. As all humans are sinners, we're all enemies of peace, so if it wasn't for Jesus dying for our sins we could never be forgiven that.

[England Expects]

So for instance, Mahatma Ghandi was an "enemy of peace" seeing as he was Hindu and not Christian?

Despite devoting his life to correcting inequallity through non-violent means.

You're a blinkered, prejudiced, ignorant joker General.

[General Septem]

So for instance, Mahatma Ghandi was an "enemy of peace" seeing as he was Hindu and not Christian?

Despite devoting his life to correcting inequallity through non-violent means.

You're a blinkered, prejudiced, ignorant joker General.

But even Ghandi sinned against peace at least once. How can God, who is perfect, ignore our sins? He cannot, but at the same time could not bear to see us not being forgiven for our sins. So that's where Jesus came in. If we did not have a saviour to rescue us from our sins, we'd all go to hell.

[freakazoid]

But even Ghandi sinned against peace at least once. How can God, who is perfect, ignore our sins? He cannot, but at the same time could not bear to see us not being forgiven for our sins. So that's where Jesus came in. If we did not have a saviour to rescue us from our sins, we'd all go to hell.

Well said. Right one! http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[beelzebub]

But even Ghandi sinned against peace at least once. How can God, who is perfect, ignore our sins? He cannot, but at the same time could not bear to see us not being forgiven for our sins. So that's where Jesus came in. If we did not have a saviour to rescue us from our sins, we'd all go to hell.

So Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for our sins? This means that to counteract a sin you must pay with sacrifice. So these Muslim's who kill their daughters because they were raped are counteracting the sin by sacrifice. Since they do not accept Christ they are just in their decision?

If god knew that it was making a human that would die and go to hell how can god be called all good? Remember that you people believe that god knows all events past, present and future so it knew what decisions were made before they were made. It also knew that this human would go to hell and suffer for all eternity.

How can a god that is all good create something to have it tortured for all eternity?

[General Septem]

So Jesus made the ultimate sacrifice for our sins? This means that to counteract a sin you must pay with sacrifice. So these Muslim's who kill their daughters because they were raped are counteracting the sin by sacrifice. Since they do not accept Christ they are just in their decision?

No. By making this "sacrifice" not only are they guilty of murder but they are actively denying Christ's ultimate sacrifice for our sins.


If god knew that it was making a human that would die and go to hell how can god be called all good? Remember that you people believe that god knows all events past, present and future so it knew what decisions were made before they were made. It also knew that this human would go to hell and suffer for all eternity.

How can a god that is all good create something to have it tortured for all eternity?

God made us all equal in terms of salvation. Jesus died for all of us. God wouldn't choose which of us to create and which of us not to simply because some people would choose hell. God created us as an entire mankind, some of us choosing God and some of us choosing hell.

Besides, if you sow a garden you're going to get weeds. If God picked and chose which human beings would be created simply on the basis of whether they would go to hell or not, it wouldn't make any difference because no matter who's in society, some people are going to fall and some aren't. It would just happen on a smaller scale. If it wasn't one person it'd be someone else.

[beelzebub]

... bla bla bla .... Jesus died for all of us. God wouldn't choose which of us to create and which of us not to simply because some people would choose hell. God created us as an entire mankind, some of us choosing God and some of us choosing hell.

The fact of the matter IS: god knows who is going to hell and who is not yet it chooses to create someone who will go to hell and suffer for all eternity. Therefore; god creates a human to live a tiny little existence to suffer for all eternity. Thats not good at all.


... it wouldn't make any difference because no matter who's in society, some people are going to fall and some aren't. It would just happen on a smaller scale. If it wasn't one person it'd be someone else.

However you say that god would know everything about everyone brought into existence. If god were all good it would not allow permanent suffering "his children" it would never bring that being into existence. Choices be dammed, if god were all good then it would not create a person to torture it for all eternity.

[General Septem]

The fact of the matter IS: god knows who is going to hell and who is not yet it chooses to create someone who will go to hell and suffer for all eternity. Therefore; god creates a human to live a tiny little existence to suffer for all eternity. Thats not good at all.

God chooses to give us that choice. Nobody's fate is certain. Nobody is doomed to hell from the minute they're born, it's the choices they make that cause that.


However you say that god would know everything about everyone brought into existence. If god were all good it would not allow permanent suffering "his children" it would never bring that being into existence. Choices be dammed, if god were all good then it would not create a person to torture it for all eternity.

God doesn't torture anyone. It's the people that choose to turn away from God that do it to themselves. Hell isn't some kind of punishment, it's a choice people make to be separated from God. But what they don't realize is that without God there is no happiness, there is nothing.

[beelzebub]

God chooses to give us that choice. Nobody's fate is certain. Nobody is doomed to hell from the minute they're born, it's the choices they make that cause that.

So therefore you are saying that god does not know out fate? It does not know whether we go to heaven or hell?


God doesn't torture anyone. It's the people that choose to turn away from God that do it to themselves. Hell isn't some kind of punishment, it's a choice people make to be separated from God. But what they don't realize is that without God there is no happiness, there is nothing.

Ok then... You believe that hell isn't like Dante's Inferno. No problem. That separation is a hell unto itself and it matters not if it is a fire or a punishment. God makes the decision to not allow based on choices a human makes ( decisions that it already knew he/she would make) and then chooses not to admit the human into it's presence (it already knew this too). That is a contradiction in all good and all knowing.

[General Septem]

Ok then... You believe that hell isn't like Dante's Inferno. No problem. That separation is a hell unto itself and it matters not if it is a fire or a punishment. God makes the decision to not allow based on choices a human makes ( decisions that it already knew he/she would make) and then chooses not to admit the human into it's presence (it already knew this too). That is a contradiction in all good and all knowing.

No, it's the kind of thing every parent finds themselves having to go through. You're the one who's pro-choice, and when someone chooses to go to hell it's the same thing. God doesn't send anyone anywhere, they make that choice for themselves. The parents that don't allow their children to make poor choices, you know what they're called? Helicopter parents. Overbearing and overprotective.

Not allowing someone existence because you know they will make poor choices is not a loving thing to do.

[beelzebub]

No, it's the kind of thing every parent finds themselves having to go through.

ANSWER THE QUESTION: "are saying that god does not know out fate?"


Not allowing someone existence because you know they will make poor choices is not a loving thing to do.

I find that a better choice than torturing that person for all eternity.

[General Septem]

ANSWER THE QUESTION: "are saying that god does not know out fate?"

God knows everything, but that's irrelevent.


I find that a better choice than torturing that person for all eternity.

Good point, except God doesn't torture anyone. He simply gives them what they want - to be separate from Him.

[ajk]

God would never ever put us into Hell if He could help it. He wants us all of us to be in his kingdom with Him for all eternity, and He does his best to make that known to us during our time on this earth.

But unfortunately there are those who decide to reject him and his teachings through their own free will (which God gave us all), therefore putting themselves in Hell as a result of their decision.

[beelzebub]

God knows everything, but that's irrelevent.

If god knows everything and is all good then it would not create a human for such a short period of time to have it suffer for all eternity.


Good point, except God doesn't torture anyone. He simply gives them what they want - to be separate from Him.

So people how don't go to heaven don't suffer?

[beelzebub]

God would never ever put us into Hell if He could help it. .... bla bla illiterate bla bla bla...decision.

Try reading the back posts before jumping into a conversation dumbass.

[General Septem]

So people how don't go to heaven don't suffer?

They suffer, but it's not God's fault. It's their own fault for choosing to be separate from God and all the graces that flow from Him.

[ajk]

Try reading the back posts before jumping into a conversation dumbass.

I have been reading the conversation actually thank you very much.

[beelzebub]

They suffer, but it's not God's fault. It's their own fault for choosing to be separate from God and all the graces that flow from Him.

God allows that choice. It created the choice and the opposing sides. Therefore it created suffering.

Once again: god knows all the choices made and what the human outcomes will be. Therefore god knows exactly where the humans it created will end up and therefore makes some suffer or happy for all eternity. Sick!

[ajk]

No, he gives us free will, but he does so in the hope that they will come to know Him and love Him.

As far as suffering goes, he may sometimes allow things to come up that will test our faith, but he would never ever send us to Hell. Only we ourselves have the power to do that.

[General Septem]

God allows that choice. It created the choice and the opposing sides. Therefore it created suffering.

God did not create suffering, because suffering is nothing but the lack of God, as is evil.


and therefore makes some suffer or happy for all eternity.

Your lack of understanding is astounding. If you go to hell you have nobody to blame but yourself. It's your choice, not God's. You should just be happy God gave you the chance to live.

[beelzebub]

God did not create suffering, because suffering is nothing but the lack of God, as is evil.

God allows some into its presence and does not allow others. Therefore it makes them suffer BY CHOICE. Not only that but this god created that individual with the full knowledge that it would make him/her suffer.


You should just be happy God gave you the chance to live.

How would I be unhappy if it did not give me the chance? I WOULD NOT KNOW because I would have never existed to begin with.

You lack of understanding is astonishing.

[beelzebub]

No, he gives us free will, but he does so in the hope that they will come to know Him and love Him.

So god doesn't know the choices we make? Doesn't sound like a all-powerful god to me.


As far as suffering goes, he may sometimes allow things to come up that will test our faith, but he would never ever send us to Hell. Only we ourselves have the power to do that.

God created hell. God sends "his children" to suffer for all eternity there. Therefore god creates a human to live for say 70 years and then sends it to suffer for all eternity. Yeah that sounds like a good god to me!?!?!!?!

[ajk]

So god doesn't know the choices we make? Doesn't sound like a all-powerful god to me.

He does, but he doesn't. He'll set things up so that things will end up a certain way, but it's up to us to ensure that it happens the way he wants it to. Case in point, let's say I'm in a crowded room. The woman who God intends for me to marry is in the room as well. I however, never speak to her during that night. Therefore, I miss out on what God wanted for me as a result.


[QUOTE]God created hell. God sends "his children" to suffer for all eternity there. Therefore god creates a human to live for say 70 years and then sends it to suffer for all eternity. Yeah that sounds like a good god to me!?!?!!?!

Again he does not send them, they choose to go there by rejecting him and his principles.

[who897]

If there was a god it is a toadstool. Do yall realize how stupid it sound, if you don't accept god your total damnation is immanant. If anything, god created dog's in it's image and we were just put here to open the canned food for it. Yall are just a bunch of wussies. I mean I'm scared as hell of death, when you die, it's just that you die, nothing. You all will not accept that, cuz your even more scared of it then I am. Fear will I figure make you believe any shit some shitstain will tell ya. Yet, the fact still remains I put my life in jeopardy every day and yall fart around in your living room. The easter bunny is real, no, get outta town.

[beelzebub]

He does, but he doesn't. He'll set things up so that things will end up a certain way, but it's up to us to ensure that it happens the way he wants it to. Case in point, let's say I'm in a crowded room. The woman who God intends for me to marry is in the room as well. I however, never speak to her during that night. Therefore, I miss out on what God wanted for me as a result.

So god wanted you to marry the chick and doesn't know if your going to do it or not? ONCE AGAIN - god doesn't know everything therefore... god is not all knowing? This smacks in the face of your judeo-christian view of god.

BTW - On whether god knows all you wrote: "He does, but he doesn't" - talk about STUPID! That makes no sense.


Again he does not send them, they choose to go there by rejecting him and his principles.

God knows all the choices they make before they are made. God knows all the choices before that human is even created. Yet you believe that this god will create that hell bound human with the full knowledge that they will suffer for all eternity. This is NOT love and compassion its sick and demented.

Humans are more just than this. At least we kill a horse that is in pain even if it made the mistake and stumbled into a pit.

[General Septem]

I think we're starting to get sidetracked from the purpose of this thread. Whether or not you personally believe religion is credible, why do you hate the religious?

[beelzebub]

I think we're starting to get sidetracked from the purpose of this thread. Whether or not you personally believe religion is credible, why do you hate the religious?

While the conversation is off topic my dislike of religion and the people who follow it can be seen in this discussion. I understand your fervent opposition. However; when you refute a LOGICAL argument with nonsense like "he does but he doesn't", I get frustrated as hell. It makes me hate all things religious because it reeks of brainwashing.

[General Septem]

While the conversation is off topic my dislike of religion and the people who follow it can be seen in this discussion. I understand your fervent opposition. However; when you refute a LOGICAL argument with nonsense like "he does but he doesn't", I get frustrated as hell. It makes me hate all things religious because it reeks of brainwashing.
I never said anything of the sort.

Your arguments are driven by hypocricy, arrogance, and selfishness.

[beelzebub]

I never said anything of the sort.

Your arguments are driven by hypocricy, arrogance, and selfishness.

Show me where I have been hypocritical in this argument. Show me where I have been arrogant in this argument. Show me where I have been selfish in this argument.

Everything that I have said has been a logical dispute of your myth. Nothing more. You only say this because you have no other recourse. I have shown you that your idea of god is fallible.

[General Septem]

Show me where I have been hypocritical in this argument. Show me where I have been arrogant in this argument. Show me where I have been selfish in this argument.

Everything that I have said has been a logical dispute of your myth. Nothing more. You only say this because you have no other recourse. I have shown you that your idea of god is fallible.

You think you should be able to do whatever you want and still be able to go to Heaven when you die. That's selfish, arrogant, and hypocritical.

[ajk]

For the record, the he does but he doesn't thing that was mentioned was something I had said, so he was referring to me GS. Incidentally, what I meant on that is he knows what will happen to a point. He may want things to happen a certain way, but we don't neccessarily have to do things his way if we don't choose to. Hence why he gave us free will. We either accept him and what he wants from us freely and openly, or we reject him freely and openly.

[beelzebub]

You think you should be able to do whatever you want and still be able to go to Heaven when you die. That's selfish, arrogant, and hypocritical.

GS I don't believe in heaven or hell. I don't know for sure what happens when you die but I think that its nothing.

[ajk]

Well all I can say is when you do pass, you'll find you were sadly mistaken. I'll leave it at that.

[beelzebub]

Well all I can say is when you do pass, you'll find you were sadly mistaken. I'll leave it at that.

Take your hell fire, apoplectic proclamations and shove them up your tight, conservative ass you pretentious bag of shit.

[ajk]

I never said you were going to go to Hell, as I don't know where you will end up just as much as anyone else does. However I will say if you keep rejecting the truth as you are now, you will most likely end up there.

[General Septem]

Take your hell fire, apoplectic proclamations and shove them up your tight, conservative ass you pretentious, bag of shit.

I couldn't help but notice the insults coming from the atheist side of the forum seem to outweight the insults coming from the Christian side. That's interesting, maybe it's really true that we're a religion of love, or of more love than atheism anyway.

[who897]

Yeah, like if you don't put that tooth under your pillow the tooth fairy may not come and give you a quarter (or a dollar with the way inflation is going)


You may not have said it directly but you were most definatly insinuating that there will be some form of judgement.

The truth, you wouldn't know the truth if it bit you in the ass. So wrapped up in your blind faith yall can't see what's going on around you.

[ajk]

Actually I would say it's the opposite. People such as myself know the truth, and accept it as such, while others such as you and bub don't know even when told it.

As far as judgment goes, there will be a judgment for all of us here one way or the other. And based on that judgment, we will go to Heaven or Hell (or for some Purgatory, which means they will be in Heaven eventually, but they have to pay for their transgressions first)

[beelzebub]

I couldn't help but notice the insults coming from the atheist side of the forum seem to outweight the insults coming from the Christian side. That's interesting, maybe it's really true that we're a religion of love, or of more love than atheism anyway.

Naw, that's just the fine ass merlot that I have been drinking tonight and my fury over such ignorance. Just because one doesn't use profanity when they talk doesn't mean they are upright and pure. In my opinion ajk has been smug and self righteous.

[General Septem]

Naw, that's just the fine ass merlot that I have been drinking tonight and my fury over such ignorance. Just because one doesn't use profanity when they talk doesn't mean they are upright and pure. In my opinion they are smug and self righteous.

I use profanity like an east coaster but I don't insult people half as much as you do.

[beelzebub]

I use profanity like an east coaster but I don't insult people half as much as you do.

On this forum perhaps - I would have to check the records.

So the fuck what!?!? Are some insults and a little profanity enought to turn someone away? If so, they did not have the smallest amount of courage for their convictions.

[ajk]

I'd like to think people could talk about this sort of thing in a civil manner without resorting to name calling, though I like GS find it interesting that often the name calling comes from the non believer side.

[General Septem]

On this forum perhaps - I would have to check the records.

So the fuck what!?!? Are some insults and a little profanity enought to turn someone away? If so, they did not have the smallest courage of their convictions.

I don't really care if people insult me but it's not always a loving thing to do.

[beelzebub]

I'd like to think people could talk about this sort of thing in a civil manner without resorting to name calling, though I like GS find it interesting that often the name calling comes from the non believer side.

What a crock of shit. You think that you can dismiss my claims because I use some insults and profanity. Hide behind your pseudo-shield of virtue all you want. The fact remains that you are weak.

[General Septem]

What a crock of shit. You think that you can dismiss my claims because I use some insults and profanity. Hide behind your pseudo-shield of virtue all you want. The fact remains that you are weak.

Haha you're drunk. :D

[ajk]

What a crock of shit. You think that you can dismiss my claims because I use some insults and profanity. Hide behind your pseudo-shield of virtue all you want. The fact remains that you are weak.

In ways I am weak, I will admit that. But can you honestly say when you look deep down at yourself, that you're not weak in places yourself?

[beelzebub]

Haha you're drunk. :D

So what if I am ... i am entitled....:D

[beelzebub]

In ways I am weak, I will admit that. But can you honestly say when you look deep down at yourself, that you're not weak in places yourself?

I know I is. Lord god knows I is weak......

Yeah I am weak in some areas but not on this topic! I know my shit when it comes to philosophy and religion (as well as a few other topics).

You on the other hand have shown nothing but weakness. Whining about how I have treated you and not backing up your claims or answering my questions IS WEAK.

[ajk]

I have shown no such weakness. I have answered every thing thrown at me to the best of my ability.

I think the fact that you've resorted to insults and name calling tells me that you know deep down you're wrong, and you're trying to make yourself look like the big man that you know you are not when it comes to this.

[beelzebub]

I have shown no such weakness. I have answered every thing thrown at me to the best of my ability.

The best of your ability is WEAK.... FUCKING WEAK, bad horrible weak!


I think the fact that you've resorted to insults and name calling tells me that you know deep down you're wrong, and you're trying to make yourself look like the big man that you know you are not when it comes to this.

You must be crazy. I know I am right and I will call a fool a fool. YOU ARE A FOOL. I am not inhibited by social graces until I know and respect someone (GS and Freak for instance) You on the other had have made audacious claims without substance. If you can't stand the heat get out of the fucking kitchen.

[ajk]

You must be crazy. I know I am right and I will call a fool a fool. YOU ARE A FOOL. I am not inhibited by social graces until I know and respect someone (GS and Freak for instance) You on the other had have made audacious claims without substance. If you can't stand the heat get out of the fucking kitchen.

Then how do you expect to get respect back? Remember do unto others as you would want others to do unto you.

[beelzebub]

Then how do you expect to get respect back? Remember do unto others as you would want others to do unto you.

I don't expect ANYTHING from you.

[MrBirdy]

I beg to differ. It's the opposite. Religion is proving science wrong. Once again it's a case of trying to logically explain that can't be explained.

My point of view

I would like you to explain your thoughts, first of all RELIGION may have only proved science wrong a few times, but this is nothing to what science has done to religion. Do you honestly think that a magic being said "let their be light" and the sun came up? Lets face the fact that the odds of that happening are slim. religion says "THAT IS TRUE."
The scientific point of view is different, the whole big bang thing. here is where science and religion differ:
Science says "that MIGHT be true." but science doesnt guarantee it. they think it could happen.

See, religion takes everything they say as fact, while science takes it as a possibility.

we as humans need a bit of both, science gives us fact, fills up our brain. While religion tells us to be kind to our neighbor, to be with our family, to be honest, nice, and friendly. religion gives some the will to live.

the problem is that now there are many religions, each states that this is the only true religion (with few exceptions that say somthing like the only true religion is happyness or something like that) so which is the true religion, so since i have no idea which is the true religion, i have decided to become an athiest, going against the beliefs of my parents. and since most religions say that god is a loving father, or something like that, if this majority of religions is right, all i have is one question "if god is a loving father, then why would he send me to hell? If The devil keeps my soul if im evil, then cant god, the all powerfull, all loving rescue me?"

The other problem is that religion has many gaps, and workarounds(much like some GUI, or OS) such as "god is not all powerfull as god cannot build a wall he cannot destroy" a trait of only human

also, the bible does not explain EVERYTHING, it "explains" how the earth was created, but does not explain all of human knowledge, such as how to make aspirin, or how to build a car. Religion did however creat the first set of rules to be followed, and these may have made the world better, No religion states to kill in the name of god, and christianity, catholisism and many other religions say this, maybe worded differently, but they still say this "do not search for religion, let it come to you."

My main argument is this:
Religion without science is death, Science without religion is hopeless.

i am not religiouse, but religion doesnt kill, it is the people who kill.
i would like EVERYONE to read this, and if you decide to ignore it without an open mind, then you have focused to much into your religion, that you wont even listen to other peoples points of view, without knowing right or wrong.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_religion

I respect other peoples beliefs, and i expect the same respect towards me, not only becouse i, who am not religiose have most likely sinned less than them, but becouse, after all whether or not i believe thay are the ones that think they are not condemed.

[MrBirdy]

All science is doing is trying to force things to make sense just because, when in reality we were not meant to know these sort of things. Rather we just accept it as it is.

well, if that is what you believe...

I would like to point out, that as you read these messages, and as you, AJK type your own stupid little messages, you are using SCIENCE, not religion, religion doesnt teach to make computers, if we allway taught religion, and if everyone said science is BS, and you would like to live in a world like that, then all i gotta say is this: good luck cooking your dinner without fire!!:cool:

I HATE AJK for the same reasons as beelzebub
Beelzebub, we need more people like you...

[ajk]

Hey I'm not saying science is all bad, it's just used for the wrong reasons sometimes. Everything in this world has it's place, and was created for particular purposes including science. Where it goes wrong is when it tries to give an explanation for something that man was never meant to really know about in this life at least.

[ajk]

I would like you to explain your thoughts, first of all RELIGION may have only proved science wrong a few times, but this is nothing to what science has done to religion. Do you honestly think that a magic being said "let their be light" and the sun came up? Lets face the fact that the odds of that happening are slim. religion says "THAT IS TRUE."


When you have God anything is possible, remember he made the blind man see, the deaf man hear, so He can do anything regardless of how impossible it may seem to the human mind. As far as whether or not I believe it, I do very much so.

[who897]

Shit I missed the whole conversation of insulting folks. The webpage this forum is on is BULLSHIT, not www.pansyfolkwhocan'ttakeaninsult.com. It's late I know to inject my own sense of "FUCK YALL" but here it is, enjoy.


AJK, you just dug yourself a big, gapping wide hole on that one bub. According to your "RELIGION" god did abso-fucking-lutly, what is it, what is it, ohh yeah, NOT a FUCKING THING. Apparerntly Jesus, your little messiha (or however it's spelled) did those things, not your god. Dang, I'm an uneducated, lazy, slacker and I seen the retartedness of your rablings, Bee was right, you're a fool.

McBirdy, you are a little off on something. First you shouldn't hate AJK for his idiotic statments or beliefs, meer pitty will suffice. Hate starts wars and I don't think Bee hate's him either, but that's my opinion. And keep in mind Septem reads these things and he likes to twist some of the things you say, so make sure you mean what you say when you say it.

[ajk]

AJK, you just dug yourself a big, gapping wide hole on that one bub. According to your "RELIGION" god did abso-fucking-lutly, what is it, what is it, ohh yeah, NOT a FUCKING THING. Apparerntly Jesus, your little messiha (or however it's spelled) did those things, not your god.


Maybe so, but without God, Jesus would never been born, as he created him in the first place. So in effect it was God doing these things just in a human form, that of his son.

[MrBirdy]

Hey I'm not saying science is all bad, it's just used for the wrong reasons sometimes. Everything in this world has it's place, and was created for particular purposes including science. Where it goes wrong is when it tries to give an explanation for something that man was never meant to really know about in this life at least.

If god didnt want us to know these things in this life, he would have never given us the trait of curiosity...

[MrBirdy]

Shit I missed the whole conversation of insulting folks. The webpage this forum is on is BULLSHIT, not www.pansyfolkwhocan'ttakeaninsult.com. It's late I know to inject my own sense of "FUCK YALL" but here it is, enjoy.


AJK, you just dug yourself a big, gapping wide hole on that one bub. According to your "RELIGION" god did abso-fucking-lutly, what is it, what is it, ohh yeah, NOT a FUCKING THING. Apparerntly Jesus, your little messiha (or however it's spelled) did those things, not your god. Dang, I'm an uneducated, lazy, slacker and I seen the retartedness of your rablings, Bee was right, you're a fool.

McBirdy, you are a little off on something. First you shouldn't hate AJK for his idiotic statments or beliefs, meer pitty will suffice. Hate starts wars and I don't think Bee hate's him either, but that's my opinion. And keep in mind Septem reads these things and he likes to twist some of the things you say, so make sure you mean what you say when you say it.

your right, i dont hate him, i just think that shit comes out of his mouth, but he doesnt know it, i apologize

[ajk]

If god didnt want us to know these things in this life, he would have never given us the trait of curiosity...

To a certain degree perhaps, but there are things that are not revealed to us nor will they be revealed to us until we pass on to this earth. Can we be curious about it? Sure we can, doesn't mean we will actually find out in this life though.

[who897]

Or a labido either cuz apparently sex is the debil bobby boucher.

[ajk]

No sex itself is not bad, it was created to be a beautiful thing when used in the right context. The way we use it today however is bad, as we're acting more on lust then love.

[who897]

Then I set forth a new proposition, in keeping w/ the christian beliefs, nothing on the planet earth shall engauge in sexual intercourse until they have been married by the catholic church or it is going to it's respective hell.

[beelzebub]

... So in effect it was God doing these things just in a human form, that of his son.

So god took a dump? I heard that they found the toilet of the house that Jesus used and now their selling Holy Shit on EBay for $20 an ounce.
Are you confirming this as REAL!?!?!?!?!?

I wonder if Jesus masterbated? If so did god then masterbate? Does he have a penis? If so what does he use it for? I bet that that sperm would go for more than $50 bucks a pop at the local sperm bank! DAM!!!!!!!!!!

[Ape-Shit]

Who's God are we talking about?:eek: Now I've heard of Holly Shit before. Is it/she/he a God too?

I think the real Gods are the Mormans in Utah with more than one wife.:p

[England Expects]

"I couldn't help but notice the insults coming from the atheist side of the forum seem to outweight the insults coming from the Christian side. That's interesting, maybe it's really true that we're a religion of love, or of more love than atheism anyway."

General, you called 4.5 billion people terrorists. Thats the biggest insult you could possibly make.

[death2chikins]

So god doesn't know the choices we make? Doesn't sound like a all-powerful god to me.

God knows the choices a person is going to make but allows them to make them anyway. If this wasn't the case, if God only allowed certain desicions to be made only certain actions to be done then we would not have free will and free will is the whole point. God wants us to choose to know him not forced to know him. He wants us to serve him of our own free will not because we have to.



God created hell. God sends "his children" to suffer for all eternity there. Therefore god creates a human to live for say 70 years and then sends it to suffer for all eternity. Yeah that sounds like a good god to me!?!?!!?!

God does not chose to send people to hell, we chose to send ourselves there. Through our actions and choices here on Earth we decide if we want to know him or not. If we chose not to know him then we separate ourselves from him. Hell is enternal sepration from God.

[death2chikins]

It is outside our reality because prior to it and the moment that it began all the laws of the universe did not exist. We are only able to speculate as to what caused it or what it was like before the big bang. Our reality is governed by these principles therefore that is outside of our reality.

Then will you admit that there are things outside our reality? In which case why is it so hard to believe that God could exist outside our reality? That his existance his not dependent on what we can measure with our science. And if things outside our reality can influence the creation of our reality why could this influence not be God?

[death2chikins]

So for instance, Mahatma Ghandi was an "enemy of peace" seeing as he was Hindu and not Christian?

Despite devoting his life to correcting inequallity through non-violent means.


I don't believe Ghandi was an enemy of peace. You do not have to be a Christian to be a just and moral person. Kindness, consideration for others, charity, and love for you neighbors are not the sole property of christianity but are traits that can be found in humans in general.

[General Septem]

"I couldn't help but notice the insults coming from the atheist side of the forum seem to outweight the insults coming from the Christian side. That's interesting, maybe it's really true that we're a religion of love, or of more love than atheism anyway."

General, you called 4.5 billion people terrorists. Thats the biggest insult you could possibly make.

Terrorists? I didn't say anything about terrorists. I said you atheists resort to insults a lot easier than we do.

[England Expects]

All non-christians are "Enemies of Peace"?

What give you the right to claim such nonsense?

[General Septem]

All non-christians are "Enemies of Peace"?

What give you the right to claim such nonsense?

Your own behaviour for starters.

You don't need to be an international terrorist to be a threat to peace. In fact there could be no war at all and there still wouldn't be peace.

[England Expects]

Again General, that's nonsense.

[General Septem]

Again General, that's nonsense.

Go outside and look at all the people in the streets, starving. Turn on the news. You call that peace? Peace isn't just lack of war.

[beelzebub]

God knows the choices a person is going to make but allows them to make them anyway. If this wasn't the case, if God only allowed certain desicions to be made only certain actions to be done then we would not have free will and free will is the whole point. God wants us to choose to know him not forced to know him. He wants us to serve him of our own free will not because we have to.

So god then creates individuals with the full knowledge of all the choices that that the individual will make. Every choice is known before the creation of that individual. With the full knowledge that an individual will make choices that send him/her to hell god goes ahead and creates that individual and then that individual goes to hell.

Thats rather sick and twisted: creating something with the full knowledge that is it going to suffer for all eternity for the choices made in this speck of time called life on earth.


God does not chose to send people to hell, we chose to send ourselves there. Through our actions and choices here on Earth we decide if we want to know him or not. If we chose not to know him then we separate ourselves from him. Hell is enternal sepration from God.

So god made everything? Heaven, hell, humans, spirits, the afterlife the life on earth and everything! Not only that be god made all the conditions to get into afterlife.

So god gets the ball rolling, creating a human with the full knowledge that the human will end up in hell. Therefore; god, by creating it in the first place and knowing the outcome, creates it to be sent to hell!

It does not really matter that humans have choices. I know they do. What matters is the creation of something to have it suffer for all eternity. Thats is NOT a loving or good thing to do.

So.... you are wrong, again!

[beelzebub]

Then will you admit that there are things outside our reality? In which case why is it so hard to believe that God could exist outside our reality? That his existance his not dependent on what we can measure with our science. And if things outside our reality can influence the creation of our reality why could this influence not be God?

I reject religion because it is BUNK. Its human interpretations and hype of what humans think is, is. They are the ones that have defined god. I am atheist with respect to their definition of god.

I don't know if there is a god. I am sure that there isn't one like what you believe in. I don't think we should define what it is.

Do I know for sure there isn't something out there? No, I don't believe anyone knows (this includes you).

[beelzebub]

"I couldn't help but notice the insults coming from the atheist side of the forum seem to outweight the insults coming from the Christian side. That's interesting, maybe it's really true that we're a religion of love, or of more love than atheism anyway."

HA! You have to be stupid to believe that.

BTW There are only two atheists here. Do you really think you can classify all atheists by just by looking at us?

[ajk]

No probably not, but sometimes all it takes is one person to cause that entire group of people to be judged.

[beelzebub]

No probably not, but sometimes all it takes is one person to cause that entire group of people to be judged.

Cette vie quand vous traitez des gens stupides.

[General Septem]

HA! You have to be stupid to believe that.

BTW There is one atheist here. Do you really think you can classify all atheists by just by looking at me?

That was me who said that, you dolt. :D

England Expects is another atheist by the way, so there is two.

Actually we're all enemies of peace. But at least some of us care. You're too stupid and arrogant to believe you're doing anything wrong.

[Ausinus]

I dont hate religion, i disagree with it. I view religious people as ignorant.

Imo, religion is dangerous and obsolete.

[General Septem]

I dont hate religion, i disagree with it. I view religious people as ignorant.

Imo, religion is dangerous and obsolete.

And I view atheists as ignorant, because the existence of God is plainly obvious to me.

[Ausinus]

To quote Hegel-

"all knowledge is human knowledge"

I would rather be ignorant of some old genderly ambiguous crank than be ignorant of the plain observations around me.

[General Septem]

I would rather be ignorant of some old genderly ambiguous crank than be ignorant of the plain observations around me.

If you honestly don't believe in God, then you are ignorant of the plain observations around you.

[Ausinus]

To which observations do you refer?

Show me an observation for god's existence that can be verified through the scientific method.

[twisted_screams]

Ok ill admit i have a problem with religion and ill tell you why.
I have been to many churches most don't take the time to teach about the good things god supposedly does most center on what ll happen if you are bad.
Second i have a problem with everyone thinking that their religion is the correct one. Who has any idea who is right.
Third the bible was taken from scrolls of a long dead language and what happens if they screwed up the interpretation.
Forth I just love watching the supposedly religious people be so sweet and kind and loving in church and then being a total bitch outside of it.
Fifth Ever work on a Sunday and deal with a high and mighty church person who thinks the world revolves around them cause they woke up early and went to church ( i have)
Sixth organized religion does not work it causes issues
Seventh If i don't go to church and i talk to god every night and no one hears me isn't that kind of like if a tree falls in the woods does any one hear it?
Eighth religion is missing alot of shit like dinosaurs and comets and other planets ( find the rest of the scrolls that say all this stuff)
Ninth religion was formed to control population
Tenth why do i have to be religious why cant i just believe that i exist and try to be a good person while i am here on earth why do i have to believe in god to be a good person.

There ya go ten good sound reasons that i don't believe in religion. And as a last and final statement. I never tell anyone to stop believing in god so why are people telling me i have to believe in him

[General Septem]

To which observations do you refer?

Show me an observation for god's existence that can be verified through the scientific method.

Example:

http://homepages.udayton.edu/~quinnbrc/big%20hug%20for%20B's%20b'day.jpg

Another example:

http://www.ntu.edu.sg/home2002/S8314448C/images/mother%20theresa.jpg

(the woman in this pic is Mother Theresa by the way. The baby has no arms)

I could find more but I'm too tired right now.

[General Septem]

Ok ill admit i have a problem with religion and ill tell you why.
I have been to many churches most don't take the time to teach about the good things god supposedly does most center on what ll happen if you are bad.

My Church is the exact opposite. They never talk about Hell or anything like that. I also have a problem with the judgmental people, that's why I don't like going to Protestant services.


Third the bible was taken from scrolls of a long dead language and what happens if they screwed up the interpretation.

I think the translation of the Bible was given a little more thought than when they translate stereo instructions from Chinese.


Forth I just love watching the supposedly religious people be so sweet and kind and loving in church and then being a total bitch outside of it.

Those people piss me off too.


Fifth Ever work on a Sunday and deal with a high and mighty church person who thinks the world revolves around them cause they woke up early and went to church ( i have)

I haven't.


Sixth organized religion does not work it causes issues

Not a valid argument, too vague.


Seventh If i don't go to church and i talk to god every night and no one hears me isn't that kind of like if a tree falls in the woods does any one hear it?

I don't understand what you're trying to say.


Eighth religion is missing alot of shit like dinosaurs and comets and other planets ( find the rest of the scrolls that say all this stuff)

Religion was never meant to explain the existance of dinosaurs and comets; for that we have palientologists and astronomers.


Ninth religion was formed to control population

How do you know this? You know this for a fact then?


Tenth why do i have to be religious why cant i just believe that i exist and try to be a good person while i am here on earth why do i have to believe in god to be a good person.

If you truely are a good person, you're already doing the work of God whether you know it or not.

[Ausinus]

Example:

http://homepages.udayton.edu/~quinnbrc/big%20hug%20for%20B's%20b'day.jpg



This is not what I asked for.




Another example:

http://www.ntu.edu.sg/home2002/S8314448C/images/mother%20theresa.jpg

(the woman in this pic is Mother Theresa by the way. The baby has no arms)

I could find more but I'm too tired right now.

I know who Mother Theresa is. And I also know that she was more interested in prosyletism than saving lives.

"I like your Christ. But I do not like your Christians, they are nothing like your Christ" -Mahatma Ghandi

Again, this does not provide evidence.

[General Septem]

This is not what I asked for.



I know who Mother Theresa is. And I also know that she was more interested in prosyletism than saving lives.

"I like your Christ. But I do not like your Christians, they are nothing like your Christ" -Mahatma Ghandi

Again, this does not provide evidence.

You don't see God in those pictures? I'll admit the first one was a tad random but I just went with the first thing I saw. I see two people who love each other in the first pic, and a woman showing love to a disabled child in the second one. I see God in both. See a pattern, or do you not get it yet?

Oh, you "know" that about Mother Theresa for a fact do you? And what tests have you done to prove that?

[Ausinus]

I know this due to a report issued by an observer who noted that the conditions in which people were treated were medically unsatisfactory.

See Dr. Robin Fox, the editor of the british medical journal.

You are obviously mocking my belief in testing. We test to see if something exists and what its properties and uses are. For a historical event we rely on accounts. Since an editor of the BMJ is required to give a factual and objective report we can state his report is viable.

Also, how can god be love or kindness, as these are not physical things?

[General Septem]

Also, how can god be love or kindness, as these are not physical things?

God is not a physical being.

[Ausinus]

Then how does he influence physical things?

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Then how does he influence physical things?


How does love and kindness (among other non-physical things) influence physical things? By changing people's emotions and thus changing their actions.

*Try to answer your own question before asking it.

[ohreally]

Another thing too about hatred on religion, is that many religions are hypocrites within their own teachings. Take Christianity for example, they are obviously pro-life (e.g. against abortion) - yet support the Death Penalty. Does that make any sense? I thought God expressed that we must not act in vengeance? Hmm...

[Ausinus]

[QUOTE=Brains_Behind_Operation]How does love and kindness (among other non-physical things) influence physical things? By changing people's emotions and thus changing their actions.QUOTE]

That contradicts your arguement that we have free will and god cannot change our actions.

[ajk]

Oh we still do have free will, but that doesn't mean God doesn't try to work inside us. Remember he cannot force us to accept him, though he may attempt to reveal himself within us. It's still up to us to make that final leap of faith and accept that which is true.

[Ausinus]

This is illogical.

You state we have free will. Free will is being capable of independent congnitive function without direct external influence.

Yet you also state that God works through us and inside of us. And revealing itself to us it is attempting to influence us into believing in it.

Talk about mutually exclusive.

[ajk]

This is illogical.

You state we have free will. Free will is being capable of independent congnitive function without direct external influence.

Yet you also state that God works through us and inside of us. And revealing itself to us it is attempting to influence us into believing in it.

Talk about mutually exclusive.

What do you call what the media does? They try to influence us in different ways. Isn't that in itself a form of external influence?

[Ausinus]

Exactly. That is what god is doing by your arguement.

[ajk]

Exactly. That is what god is doing by your arguement.

Well if the media can do it, why can't God then? Why one but not the other?

[Ausinus]

So you admit god influences us, which proves we do not have free will.

But I ask , how can an intangible thing such as god influence physical things directly WITHOUT a medium?

[ajk]

So you admit god influences us, which proves we do not have free will.

But I ask , how can an intangible thing such as god influence physical things directly WITHOUT a medium?

But he does have a medium, through priests, church, christian television stations etc. His medium comes through all that speak the truth and do his will.

[Ausinus]

Well then it demonstrates something: god is not omnipotent. Otherwise, why would it need a medium? Either that or its really lazy and not perfect at all.

And you didnt answer the question; exactly HOW could it influence physical things if God DIDNT posess a medium?

If god were some form of energy, then the second law of thermodynamics would apply.
If not, then the first law would.

[General Septem]

Then how does he influence physical things?
The same way love and kindness, which you yourself have said to be non-physical things, affect physical things.

[Ausinus]

Then god can be said to not exist without humanity. QED

[General Septem]

Then god can be said to not exist without humanity. QED

In the physical world, God's main method of interacting with us is through us. That doesn't mean God would not exist without us.

[Ausinus]

But if he, by your argument, can only manipulate physical things in an intangible manner utilising a medium, then without humanity, which in your view is God's medium, he cannot manipulate anything. Also, love is a human emotion and thus without humans, god cannot exist.

[General Septem]

But if he, by your argument, can only manipulate physical things in an intangible manner utilising a medium, then without humanity, which in your view is God's medium, he cannot manipulate anything. Also, love is a human emotion and thus without humans, god cannot exist.

I never said He could only interact with the physical world through us, I said that's just what He chooses to do. If it weren't for us He'd interact with us through other means. He's more than capable.

[Ausinus]

But why does he choose to use a medium?:confused: It sounds to me like god is lazy.

[General Septem]

So you admit god influences us, which proves we do not have free will.

Not necessarily. This conversation influences you as well, but you have the free will to choose exactly how it influences you, as well as the free will to choose anything else you will.

[General Septem]

But why does he choose to use a medium?:confused: It sounds to me like god is lazy.

Because if God just manifested himself as a big old guy in the sky with a big beard, it would tend to affect our free will?

And by using us as a medium, God can interact with the world in His purest form - love, charity, hope, and wisdom. So even though God works through us, God is present in His purest form. In the spiritual world God would not need to work through us, but for us who exist in the physical and spiritual world, God works through us to interact with the physical world.

[Ausinus]

Love, charity, hope and wisdom are all human emotions. If god's purest form are emotions such as that, then he is incapable of existence without humanity. QED

Besides, all this "god is love crap" is just that, crap. Emotions are simply psychological responses to outside stimuli.

[General Septem]

Love, charity, hope and wisdom are all human emotions. If god's purest form are emotions such as that, then he is incapable of existence without humanity. QED

Besides, all this "god is love crap" is just that, crap. Emotions are simply psychological responses to outside stimuli.

Ah, but emotions are not physical things, they're spiritual things. And these "human" emotions are not just human emotions; they are God working through us.

Anyway, it's becoming apparent to me that you aren't interested in a discussion so much as you're interested in saying "this is how it is" and receiving a pat on the back from other members, because everything I say you seem to ignore, disregard, or just not get.

[Ausinus]

Well you are right on one point - I dont get it.

I dont get how god can be composed of a number of intangible things, yet still is able to physically touch things and move them. Your answer is that god chooses not to do this but work through people. Contrary to this, you also state we have free will, which if god works through us we clearly do not posess. And if god is composed of these positive emotions such as love and hope, why does he allow death and pain, why did he not just make us in the form of a soul? Does he enjoy testing us and making us suffer? And if god was love, which would include unconditional love, why does he demand we ingratiate ourselves to him with belief, and punish us if we do not through sending us to hell? Why would he give us free choice if we can choose to do sins? These are not the actions of a loving, omnipotent and omniscient god; its sounds like god fucked up when creating us and is punishing us for his mistakes.

[ajk]

its sounds like god fucked up when creating us and is punishing us for his mistakes.

Actually it's the opposite. We all feel the after effect of what happened when Adam and Eve took part in original sin. As a result of that, life has become what we today know it to be.

[Ausinus]

Then answer me this: why would god create a tree that would damn humanity? Again, this is not an action that a god of love and justice would do.

[ajk]

This could answer it a lot better then I can.

http://www.probe.org/content/view/335/47/

You have to scroll down about the half the page to get to it. Hope it helps.

[General Septem]

I dont get how god can be composed of a number of intangible things, yet still is able to physically touch things and move them.

God is more than capable of manifesting Himself in physical form. But He does physically move things through us as well. For example, when someone gives their jacket to a homless person out of love, God is present there.

[Ausinus]

This could answer it a lot better then I can.

http://www.probe.org/content/view/335/47/

You have to scroll down about the half the page to get to it. Hope it helps.

I see, god did it to give us free choice out of love. Why then cant you follow that example in abortion, give the mother the choice to do wrong out of love for her?

As I stated before, that sounds like an abused wife trying to protect her husband.

[Ausinus]

God is more than capable of manifesting Itself in physical form. But It does physically move things through us as well. For example, when someone gives their jacket to a homless person out of love, God is present there.


But how do you know god is present there if it's not in physical form?

[General Septem]

I see, god did it to give us free choice out of love. Why then cant you follow that example in abortion, give the mother the choice to do wrong out of love for her?

We all have that choice whether something is legal or not. Nobody can interfere with free will, no matter how hard they may try. I'm not suggesting any method of control either, I just want people to acknowledge that abortion is little different from any other kind of murder.

[General Septem]

But how do you know god is present there if it's not in physical form?

How do you know love is present if it's not there in physical form?

[ajk]

I see, god did it to give us free choice out of love. Why then cant you follow that example in abortion, give the mother the choice to do wrong out of love for her?

As I stated before, that sounds like an abused wife trying to protect her husband.

Well now there's a difference between making a wrong choice for oneself and making a wrong choice for someone who cannot speak up for itself.

If she wants to choose to do wrong to herself, that's one thing. But when another life is involved with that choice (and that goes for any type of murder, not just abortion) it's entirely different.

[Ausinus]

Well now there's a difference between making a wrong choice for oneself and making a wrong choice for someone who cannot speak up for itself.

Well then why do we kill animals? They cannot speak up for themselves and they have greater mental capacity than foeti.


If she wants to choose to do wrong to herself, that's one thing. But when another life is involved with that choice (and that goes for any type of murder, not just abortion) it's entirely different.

Yet you say god will forgive someone if they are penetant. Why cant mothers just repent afterwards?

[General Septem]

Well then why do we kill animals? They cannot speak up for themselves and they have greater mental capacity than foeti.

They are not human, or even remotely human for that matter.


Yet you say god will forgive someone if they are penetant. Why cant mothers just repent afterwards?

They can, but you can't just say "oh, I'll do such-and such and I'll just repent afterward". It doesn't work. It wouldn't work with murder and it wouldn't work with abortion. Now if afterward you were truely sorry and if you had it to do over again you wouldn't, then that would be different.

[ajk]

Well then why do we kill animals? They cannot speak up for themselves and they have greater mental capacity than foeti.

Because we use them as food to survive. Animals serve a different purpose. Obviously some such as dogs and cats, are here to be our friends and become members of the family. Others however such as cows and pigs, have another purpose, and that is to be eaten by us eventually. It's the nature of the food chain.




Yet you say god will forgive someone if they are penetant. Why cant mothers just repent afterwards?

That's not the point. Sure God will forgive them if they are truly sorry for what they did, but it doesn't change the fact that what happened was still wrong. Every human life is sacred from the moment of conception, and deserves to be treated with dignity and respect.

[Ausinus]

They are not human, or even remotely human for that matter.

Humans are animals too. We are just very advanced animals.

Besides, if the mother doesnt believe foeti are humans then she should have to have your views forced upon her. We all know that abortions are necessary for extenuating circumstances though.

[General Septem]

Humans are animals too. We are just very advanced animals.

I never said anything about animals. I said, the other species we rightfully kill for food are not human. There's nothing wrong with killing an animal for food, it's killing a human that's wrong. If you honestly don't think there's any difference between humans and other animals, I don't really know what to tell you.

Frivolously killing animals is not right either though.

[ajk]

Besides, if the mother doesnt believe foeti are humans then she should have to have your views forced upon her. We all know that abortions are necessary for extenuating circumstances though.

I'm going to assume you meant shouldn't have to have our views forced upon her. Really it doesn't matter what she believes. She can believe it's not a human life if she wants, but it doesn't mean she's right in any sense. It's still a life regardless of what she may have to say about it.

And no abortions are not neccessary in extenuating circumstances. It's unfortunate if a woman gets raped and becomes pregnant, but that baby in the womb takes precedence over the mother. Besides if she doesn't want the kid, there's always adoption.

[Ausinus]

Biologically, we are animals. Psychologically we are not. I know there is a difference.

The point is that taking a human life is no different from taking an animal life. We can get our nutrients from other sources now, so why do people still kill animals? It is their choice. Just like abortion is a person's choice.

[General Septem]

Biologically, we are animals. Psychologically we are not. I know there is a difference.

The point is that taking a human life is no different from taking an animal life. We can get our nutrients from other sources now, so why do people still kill animals? It is their choice. Just like abortion is a person's choice.

Did you just say that you know there's a difference between humans and animals, but that there is no difference between killing humans and animals?

[Ausinus]

Biologically speaking there is no difference between killing humans and animals. That is the meaning.

[ajk]

In that sense maybe not, but think about the future impact of killing a human life before birth, compared to that of an animal.

The animal is there for food, and at times for companionship, and nothing else really. It does whatever it does, on it's own, and doesn't really contribute anything of value to society beyond that.

But the baby has a special purpose that it is to find out about as it grows and matures into an adult. What if for example you knew that a baby to born was going to find a cure for MD? I bet you would keep it then now wouldn't you.

By aborting a human life, the world is robbed of a potential entertainer, newscaster, scientist, priest, etc. Can you say the same for an animal? I don't think so.

[Ausinus]

But by keeping a human life we could have the next stalin, which makes that argument invalid.

Plus, we can always make more babies. they are not a limited resource.

[General Septem]

Biologically speaking there is no difference between killing humans and animals. That is the meaning.

Morality isn't a biological thing.

[ajk]

But by keeping a human life we could have the next stalin, which makes that argument invalid.

No it doesn't. Regardless of the what the future holds, that baby deserves a chance to live just as much as we do.


Plus, we can always make more babies. they are not a limited resource.

Not the point. Every life is unique, and when you rob society of that life, you can't get it back again the same way. You may be able to have other babies, but not the same one as the one killed.

[Ausinus]

I think the lives of the mothers who have actually lived and done things is more important than a 'potential' life.

[General Septem]

I think the lives of the mothers who have actually lived and done things is more important than a 'potential' life.

It's not potential life; fetuses are already living human beings.

[Ausinus]

i see ajk as defining life as postnatal life in this section of the arguement.

[ajk]

So what? It's relevant to the discussion I'd say.

[Ausinus]

i wasnt debating its relevance i was explaining to GS the parameters of the discussion.