Where in the CONSTITUTION do the FEDS get this power?

[ballzack]

WHERE in the Constitution does it say that NATIONAL HEALTH CARE is a RIGHT?
It does not. Health care is a COMMODITY. Nothing more. Nothing less. IT IS NOT A RIGHT! IT IS NOT IDENTIFIED IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS! IT's a FREE MARKET COMMODITY! And NONE of us should be FORCED to PAY for it nor participate in this crap. To the tune of ANOTHER TRILLION DOLLARS of taxpayer money.

WHERE in the Constitution does it say that the Government on a FEDERAL LEVEL can OWN and MANAGE INDUSTRY or COMMODITIES?

It does NOT because the founding fathers KNEW this would lead to ruin.

And THAT'S what this administration and our Congress is doing. BREACHING the Constitution.

What's that called? Oh, yea... TREASON!

I stand on a street corner with a sidearm strapped to my hip and shout "FUCK THE PRESIDENT! HE NEEDS TO GO!" and I'd be arrested for exercising my Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms and freedom of speech.

Yet Congress and the White House are breaking constitutional law horrifically and NOTHING is being done?

Time to stand up and be heard, boys. Time to stand up and be heard.

VOTE in 2010!
Let Congress know YOU'VE had ENOUGH!

[Phoenix]

But you see that's just it, voting. We don't need to vote. Voting is just going to take out old assholes and put in new assholes.

I call revolution.

[Montanarchist]

But you see that's just it, voting. We don't need to vote. Voting is just going to take out old assholes and put in new assholes.

I call revolution.

That would give the exact same result.

[Phoenix]

That would give the exact same result.

Eh, not exactly. Personally, I feel it would teach the new assholes not to give us any shit, or we'll march up to capitol hill with machine guns.

[Montanarchist]

Eh, not exactly. Personally, I feel it would teach the new assholes not to give us any shit, or we'll march up to capitol hill with machine guns.

Let us go through a few revolutions then:

France: Abusive King replaced with war mongering Emperor
Russia: Abusive Emperor replaced with Abusive Government
Cuba: Abusive Dictator replaced with far more Abusive Dictator.
Mexico: Abusive Dictator replaced with Abusive Government.
Nicaragua: Abusive Dictator replaced with Abusive Government.
China: Constant civil war until an Abusive Dictator finally emerges.

Do you see a pattern?

The best example I can think would be the American Revolution, but already at the time there were strong forces prompting for a mercantile system with strong centralization regarding everything and a single ruler appointed for life which it eventually turned into even though it took a while.

[Phoenix]

Well, yea, there is that................

The real problem here is that the majority of Americans no longer give a fuck about liberty. Democracy fails at this point, especially when the people figure out they can vote themselves more money. This is demonstrated by the fact that Obama is in office.

Are you familiar with the seven stages of democracy?
1. From Bondage to spiritual faith;

2. From spiritual faith to great courage;

3. From courage to liberty;

4. From liberty to abundance;

5. From abundance to complacency;

6. From complacency to apathy;

7. From apathy to dependence;

8. From dependence back into bondage"

[Montanarchist]

I've seen that list but it's entirely divorced from reality. I can't think of any country which that list applies to.

[Phoenix]

I've seen that list but it's entirely divorced from reality. I can't think of any country which that list applies to.

Try the one you're living in.

[Montanarchist]

Try the one you're living in.

Step 1 implies that the revolution was triggered by religious beliefs, step 2 implies that the war was a great courageous act in its entirety, step 3 implies that courage alone is enough to fight bondage and step 4 and on are far too vague for me to make out anything specific from them.
Do you have a better guess?

[Carrot]

Phoenix, read Animal Farm.

[Montanarchist]

Phoenix, read Animal Farm.

Much better idea.

[Phoenix]

Step 1 implies that the revolution was triggered by religious beliefs, step 2 implies that the war was a great courageous act in its entirety, step 3 implies that courage alone is enough to fight bondage and step 4 and on are far too vague for me to make out anything specific from them.
Do you have a better guess?

Eh, I don't think courage and faith are related, however, just two sequential factors that are coincidental. The American revolution (which brought us freedom - step 3) was a courageous feat indeed. If we had lost the war, anyone who had been in it would most likely have been executed for treason. 4 and 5 are anyone's guess I suppose. Mostly what I was focusing on is 6-8. To me, they seem nothing but logic. When one feels good with what is going on, eventually one will begin to take it for granted, thus becoming apathetic, which is what is happening in our society today. Now, since people have figured out that they can vote themselves more money (e.g. bigger welfare checks and free health care) the people have begun to depend on the government. When the government gets us far enough under its thumb, we will be in complete bondage with no way out.

[Montanarchist]

Eh, I don't think courage and faith are related, however, just two sequential factors that are coincidental.
According to te list they are, but okay.


The American revolution (which brought us freedom - step 3) was a courageous feat indeed. If we had lost the war, anyone who had been in it would most likely have been executed for treason.
Courage itself is not an advantage in winning a war.
Also, liberty was not the goal for many people involved, a lot were generally sick of England and didn't give a fuck about liberty, which BTW, is an extremely vague concept.


Mostly what I was focusing on is 6-8. To me, they seem nothing but logic. When one feels good with what is going on, eventually one will begin to take it for granted, thus becoming apathetic, which is what is happening in our society today. Now, since people have figured out that they can vote themselves more money (e.g. bigger welfare checks and free health care) the people have begun to depend on the government. When the government gets us far enough under its thumb, we will be in complete bondage with no way out.

And how does this apply to pre-revolutionary America?

[Phoenix]

Courage itself is not an advantage in winning a war. Also, liberty was not the goal for many people involved, a lot were generally sick of England and didn't give a fuck about liberty, which BTW, is an extremely vague concept.
Well, yea Liberty is a vague concept, but I doubt that if nobody gave a fuck about Liberty, there wouldn't have been a group called The Sons of Liberty.

But lets say they weren't, where the hell did I say courage was an advantage in war? All I was saying was that you gotta be either pretty damn retarded or pretty damn brave in order to risk your own life along with the welfare of your family against an army that greatly outnumbers your own, and is better trained just to liberate yourself from taxation without representation among some other things.




And how does this apply to pre-revolutionary America?
It doesn't have a damn thing to do with pre-revolutionary America, it has to do with present-day America.

[Montanarchist]

Well, yea Liberty is a vague concept, but I doubt that if nobody gave a fuck about Liberty, there wouldn't have been a group called The Sons of Liberty.
But the problem still remains unless anyone is ready to define what that word actually means.


But lets say they weren't, where the hell did I say courage was an advantage in war?
I guess you didn't, but the list did, and you defended the list.


All I was saying was that you gotta be either pretty damn retarded or pretty damn brave in order to risk your own life along with the welfare of your family against an army that greatly outnumbers your own,
But that has nothing to do with/does not lead to liberty.

and is better trained just to liberate yourself from taxation without representation among some other things.
America had the lowest tax rates in the world at the time and none of the politicians that signed the constitution were actual "representatives" of their states, and they continued to tax.

It doesn't have a damn thing to do with pre-revolutionary America, it has to do with present-day America.
Then how is that list relevant, if human constructs are nor cyclical?

[Phoenix]

But the problem still remains unless anyone is ready to define what that word actually means.
The problem is that liberty is subjective. Rights are imaginary, therefore liberty is also.


I guess you didn't, but the list did, and you defended the list.
No it didn't, the list is a series of sequential events.


But that has nothing to do with/does not lead to liberty.
I didn't say it did.


America had the lowest tax rates in the world at the time and none of the politicians that signed the constitution were actual "representatives" of their states, and they continued to tax.
Taxation is not the problem. The problem is excessive taxation with no representation. The colonies had no voice in England. England could place whatever tax they wanted on whatever they wanted (e.g. The Stamp Act, the Sugar Act, etc.)


Then how is that list relevant, if human constructs are nor cyclical?
A list of steps in a democracy does not apply to an absolute monarchy.

Yes, I realize that there was to some degree representative government in the colonies, however, they were still under the rule of the King.

[Montanarchist]

The point is, Phoenix, that human constructs are ever changing. If you admit that the existence of democracy is arbitrary then that list is worthless.

[freakazoid]

WHERE in the Constitution does it say that NATIONAL HEALTH CARE is a RIGHT?
It does not. Health care is a COMMODITY. Nothing more. Nothing less. IT IS NOT A RIGHT! IT IS NOT IDENTIFIED IN THE BILL OF RIGHTS! IT's a FREE MARKET COMMODITY! And NONE of us should be FORCED to PAY for it nor participate in this crap. To the tune of ANOTHER TRILLION DOLLARS of taxpayer money.

WHERE in the Constitution does it say that the Government on a FEDERAL LEVEL can OWN and MANAGE INDUSTRY or COMMODITIES?

It does NOT because the founding fathers KNEW this would lead to ruin.

And THAT'S what this administration and our Congress is doing. BREACHING the Constitution.

What's that called? Oh, yea... TREASON!

I stand on a street corner with a sidearm strapped to my hip and shout "FUCK THE PRESIDENT! HE NEEDS TO GO!" and I'd be arrested for exercising my Constitutionally protected right to keep and bear arms and freedom of speech.

Yet Congress and the White House are breaking constitutional law horrifically and NOTHING is being done?

Time to stand up and be heard, boys. Time to stand up and be heard.

VOTE in 2010!
Let Congress know YOU'VE had ENOUGH!

There is only ONE commodity guaranteed in the US Constitution as something you have a RIGHT to own (and it doesn't say you have the right to have it paid for by someone else)...

The Second Amendment

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I agree...

VOTE in 2010! Let Congress know YOU'VE had ENOUGH!

[Rise Up]

Eh, I don't think courage and faith are related, however, just two sequential factors that are coincidental. The American revolution (which brought us freedom - step 3) was a courageous feat indeed. If we had lost the war, anyone who had been in it would most likely have been executed for treason. 4 and 5 are anyone's guess I suppose. Mostly what I was focusing on is 6-8. To me, they seem nothing but logic. When one feels good with what is going on, eventually one will begin to take it for granted, thus becoming apathetic, which is what is happening in our society today. Now, since people have figured out that they can vote themselves more money (e.g. bigger welfare checks and free health care) the people have begun to depend on the government. When the government gets us far enough under its thumb, we will be in complete bondage with no way out.

Go play a video game. I'm being honest here, you need to play video games. Start off easy, try Elder Scrolls 3 Morrowind, you should be able to get a used Xbox somewhere or get a 360 that can play it, but play a video game for Xeconalianism's sake!!! (I don't know if that's how you spell it.)

[ballzack]

There is only ONE commodity guaranteed in the US Constitution as something you have a RIGHT to own (and it doesn't say you have the right to have it paid for by someone else)...

The Second Amendment

A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

I agree...

VOTE in 2010! Let Congress know YOU'VE had ENOUGH!

BINGO! My POINT EXACTLY! The RIGHT to keep and bear arms is a RIGHT. NONE of the other so-called "RIGHTS" that the far left is touting EXIST.
You do NOT have the right to a home.
You do NOT have the right to a job.
You do NOT have the right to drive a car.
you do NOT have the right to TAX and SPEND my money.
and you do NOT have the RIGHT to INFRINGE upon MY RIGHT to KEEP and BEAR ARMS or the RIGHT to curtail MY FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

You only have the FREEDOM to PURSUE HAPPINESS as the founders made clear among Life and Liberty! And THESE are being curtailed as well!

SO, "SCREW MAOBAMA and SCREW CONGRESS", I shout... as I strap the Sigma 40 cal to my side and HEAD to the VOTING BOOTH! :D

And when there I will shout "Congress has curtailed my pursuit of happiness! Anyone else agree? Then VOTE these BUMS OUT OF OFFICE!"