Can anybody prove that their is a god?

[MrBirdy]

Ok, being openly athiest, i go under a lot of critizism, but the only reason i am athiest is this. "Can anybody actually prove to me that god is real, or that Jesus is our savior? or that god really did make us?" comeon...
Anybody care to take up this chalenge?

[ajk]

Ok I'll bite. I don't recall the name of the guy off the top of my head, but I read about this guy who had everything a person could want. He had women, money, owned two nightclubs, the works. Then in July of 1984 he suffered a heart attack, actually died briefly, only to be told he had a mission to carry out so he had to come back to Earth. If that's not proof of a God then I don't know what is.

[MrBirdy]

Ok I'll bite. I don't recall the name of the guy off the top of my head, but I read about this guy who had everything a person could want. He had women, money, owned two nightclubs, the works. Then in July of 1984 he suffered a heart attack, actually died briefly, only to be told he had a mission to carry out so he had to come back to Earth. If that's not proof of a God then I don't know what is.

Thats called a heart attach, and a nightmare...
Have you ever heard of the cuban blowfish?
it fully paralyzes the body
FULLY, that includes heart, brain, etc...
of course people are burried, becouse they think they are dead, but surprise they wake up like zombies, even though they never really did die...

your full of BS AJK

[ajk]

Would a nightmare include being told he had a mission to do? I don't think so. I think this guy may have a site, so I'll get the link to you if you want to see more for proof of this.

[General Septem]

Of course. I see God all the time. I shudder to think of how much of a hell hole (lol literally) this place would be without God.

[MrBirdy]

Would a nightmare include being told he had a mission to do? I don't think so. I think this guy may have a site, so I'll get the link to you if you want to see more for proof of this.

anyone can dream anything, once i had a dream of a little 5 year old trying to kill me...

Just becouse he saw god in a dream, doesnt mean god is real, it proves, hoever that god can be a figment of the imagination, just like almost any other non-existant entity.

[MrBirdy]

Of course. I see God all the time. I shudder to think of how much of a hell hole (lol literally) this place would be without God.

It wouldn't matter, this place isnt a hell hole, but i dare you to go to some 3rd world country, and then tell me that there is a god!!

[ajk]

While it is true they have problems, it doesn't mean God caused them. The people created them themselves.

[General Septem]

It wouldn't matter, this place isnt a hell hole, but i dare you to go to some 3rd world country, and then tell me that there is a god!!

I've seen third world countries, and I saw God there too. I saw God in the people trying to provide relief to their poor.

[MrBirdy]

well, i mean the god that the bible talks about, not the one that General mentions, the one that everyone who believes in jebus god.

The biblical god, can anybody actually prov he exists, i mean its all pseudo science...

[General Septem]

well, i mean the god that the bible talks about, not the one that General mentions, the one that everyone who believes in jebus god.

The biblical god, can anybody actually prov he exists, i mean its all pseudo science...

Yep, that's Him.

[Ausinus]

No. Thats the answer. No one can prove god exists.
People claim that they can "prove" it exists, but heres the real story;

You cannont prove something exists unless you can observe it directly. However, you can infer its existence by observing its effects on other masses.

Because there are no instances in which god has been seen, heard, touched, tasted or smelt and there are no times where god has detectably affected anything, GODS EXISTENCE CANNOT BE PROVEN.

The best you'll get is cock and bull "near death" experience stories.

[General Septem]

You cannont prove something exists unless you can observe it directly.

Which I have.

[Ausinus]

Perhaps you mistake my meaning of 'cock and bull'. It just a hallucination. If I dreamed that all the deities ever written of came to me and said I was going to die in seven days, I still wouldn't accept is as true.

Why would god, being alleged as an omniscient being, go through the trouble of writing in your fate to die, just to bring you back again? Also doesnt the bible say "No man may see my face and live"?

ICorrect me if im wrong, ive never heard of an atheist who has had an NDE.

[General Septem]

Perhaps you mistake my meaning of 'cock and bull'. It just a hallucination. If I dreamed that all the deities ever written of came to me and said I was going to die in seven days, I still wouldn't accept is as true.

Well this is no hallucination. It's just normal and everyday life. God is everywhere if you know where to look. Not some big bearded man up in the sky, but a force which manifests Himself in the beauty of the forests, and in the love of a mother for her child. In the one person that smiles at you throughout a long day of working, that one person who makes you feel better at that moment than you could imagine, just by smiling at you. God is everywhere.


Why would god, being alleged as an omniscient being, go through the trouble of writing in your fate to die, just to bring you back again?

When God created us, He intended for us to live forever. When Adam and Eve disobeyed Him, they were told that they would die. And they eventually did, just as we all eventually do. But our death is not the end; our bodies may die but our spirit will live on. At the end of time we will be reunited with our bodies, but the world as we know it will be gone.


Also doesnt the bible say "No man may see my face and live"?

Our souls as we are could never see God directly, but when we die and go to meet Him our souls are strengthened. Otherwise it would be too much to handle.


ICorrect me if im wrong, ive never heard of an atheist who has had an NDE.

I have, but I can't back it up with a source. I've heard of it happening though.

[ajk]

Alright you guys want proof that God exists, well here you go.

First off I was told something today (and this is a true story), that I never knew about. Some time ago a little boy wanted to know if Jesus really was present in the church. So the boy climbed up onto the tabernacle, and knocked on the door saying: "Jesus are you there?" Everyone in the church at the time (the parents, priests) were then able to hear him respond: "Yes Son I am"

Second, there was once something called the miracle of lanciano too. It happened after a basilian monk doubted the true presence of Jesus in the Eucharist (aka the body and blood of Christ, represented through bread and wine)

Well during a mass soon after that, when the bread and wine was consecrated, it actually transformed into real flesh and blood. This has been proven many times by scientists over the years, and it can still be seen today (having been preserved by the church)

You can find more info on this here:
http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html

So there you go, there's your proof. If this won't convince you then nothing will.

[thememan]

Ok, being openly athiest, i go under a lot of critizism, but the only reason i am athiest is this. "Can anybody actually prove to me that god is real, or that Jesus is our savior? or that god really did make us?" comeon...
Anybody care to take up this chalenge?

Coming from an Agnost(Non-theistic), asking to prove God exists is impossible. Religion can not be proved, it takes faith. If you were to "prove" God exists, it would infact disprove the existance of God, as proof is more or less the antithesis of faith.

That being said, there is a difference between blind faith, and intelligent faith(Not say blind is necessarily unintelligent, but I couldnt' think of a better word for it). Blind faith never questions, follows what they are told. Intelligent faith has reasons for the faith.

[Nobody]

No. Thats the answer. No one can prove god exists.
People claim that they can "prove" it exists, but heres the real story;

You cannont prove something exists unless you can observe it directly. However, you can infer its existence by observing its effects on other masses.

Because there are no instances in which god has been seen, heard, touched, tasted or smelt and there are no times where god has detectably affected anything, GODS EXISTENCE CANNOT BE PROVEN.

The best you'll get is cock and bull "near death" experience stories.
..........Do you believe in "Luck"?

[Ausinus]

Hardly. "Luck" is just probability and coincidence.

[ajk]

In cases yes, but there are some things that God spares us from even if we may not realize it. That's not luck or mere coincidence, that's divine intervention.

[Ausinus]

If that were true, then everyone with treatable cancer would survive.

[ajk]

If that were true, then everyone with treatable cancer would survive.

Not exactly, sometimes it's just that person's time to leave this earth that's all.

[General Septem]

Hey Ausinus, how old are you?

[Ausinus]

The only time when it is a persons time to die is when they die of old age.

[ajk]

No, sometimes God may take them away before that you never know. That's why you should always live each day like it's the last, cause you never know when God will take you away.

[Ausinus]

Then by your arguement, god is an abortionist. Think miscarriage.

[General Septem]

Then by your arguement, god is an abortionist. Think miscarriage.

The very reason why murder is wrong is because God alone knows when it's time for each of us to die, not us. So your argument doesn't count.

[Ausinus]

Then how do we know that when we murder someone that it doesnt coincide with gods supposed set time for them to die?

[ajk]

Because murder goes against God's law.

[General Septem]

Then how do we know that when we murder someone that it doesnt coincide with gods supposed set time for them to die?

The point is, it's not our choice who dies, and by murdering someone we choose when they die.

[Ausinus]

Ahh, but evidently if everything has a time to die, then wouldn't god have made it so that the victim's time to die was at the time of murder?

[General Septem]

Ahh, but evidently if everything has a time to die, then wouldn't god have made it so that the victim's time to die was at the time of murder?

Everything happens the way it happens, and if God doesn't want someone to die they will recover, but it is impossible to kill someone according to God's will, because we don't know God's will in that way.

[Ausinus]

Everything happens the way it happens, and if God doesn't want someone to die they will recover, but it is impossible to kill someone according to God's will, because we don't know God's will in that way.

But if we do not know god's will, how then do we not know that god didnt intend for a person to die by murder?

[General Septem]

But if we do not know god's will, how then do we not know that god didnt intend for a person to die by murder?

We don't know that He did, so by making that choice for Him we would be wrong.

[ajk]

Because He would never will someone to die that way as it violates one of the Ten Commandments which He created. That of course being thou shalt not kill. Obviously sometimes it may happen, but it wasn't cause of his will.

[Ausinus]

Because He would never will someone to die that way as it violates one of the Ten Commandments which He created. That of course being thou shalt not kill. Obviously sometimes it may happen, but it wasn't cause of his will.

And the conclusion of this is that everything does not have a time to die, and that god is not omniscient.

[ajk]

No everyone does have a time to die. But it's to be determined by God and not by us.

[Ausinus]

But then how do you explain murder? Surely then, god must be enacting his divine will through us if your argument were true.

[General Septem]

But then how do you explain murder? Surely then, god must be enacting his divine will through us if your argument were true.

God just chooses not to interfere.

[Ausinus]

Thus logically, the victims time to die would be at the time of murder.

[ajk]

No, don't forget did give us free will too. It's not his fault that someone decided to use that free will for evil.

[Ausinus]

Then by that argument, everything does not have a time to die. Or else that god is clearly not omnipotent.

[General Septem]

Thus logically, the victims time to die would be at the time of murder.

Nobody knows. The point is that there are several possibilities besides just assuming "God is not omniscent".

[Ausinus]

But is it not your belief that god is omniscient and omnipotent?

[ajk]

Then by that argument, everything does not have a time to die. Or else that god is clearly not omnipotent.

Yes it does, whether or not it was that person's time is irrevelant here. The fact is when someone is murdered, the murderer is in effect playing God by deciding that that person's time to die is now, when it may be so, or it may not be so.

[General Septem]

But is it not your belief that god is omniscient and omnipotent?

It is. What I'm saying is that your argument does nothing to prove this is not the case, because of the numerous other possibilities.

[Ausinus]

What are the other possibilities?

[General Septem]

What are the other possibilities?
What I've been telling you the past 20 posts.

[Ausinus]

I was stating it as an alternative to the conclusion that everyone doesnt have a time to die.

You state everything has a time to die as set by god. But if it were true, then god would set the time to die for victims of murder to at the time of murder. However, god condemns murder as a sin, so cannot will someone's time to die when they are murdered. Either, everything does not have a time to die, or gods ability to set our time to die is fallible. Since omnipotence is being all powerful, and omniscience is seeing all, then gods inability to set our time to die demonstrates that god could not be omniscient and omnipotent in this circumstance..

[MrBirdy]

well, when is it the time for the victim to die.
Here is my argument with murder, most of the time the guy that pulls the trigger is/has either:

a) Psycological problems (ranging from stress to anger)
b) Chemical dissbalnces in the brain, which cause anger, etc (excess or lack of lithium, etc.)
c) Revenge/self deffense (in which case the "victim" had somewhat of a responsiblity)

so, in the first two cases (which are the most common) they would be forgiven for their murder.

So then god would have partaken in any part, eccept giving the killer a mind to kill, but not a reason.

So then, with certain conditions, murder is forgiveable.

If god has given all of us a time to die, then if the victim wasn't murdered (should something that defies the laws of time happend) he would still die, but it would be spontaniouse, or he out of nowhere a giant ice cream truck falls atop him. which would go against any other laws of time and space.

Anyway, murder is forgivable according to god, becouse the person murdering someone is all part of his "great plan."
so both the killer and the victim would be nothing but pawns for entertainment, considering god has known this would happen since the beggining of time.

[General Septem]

But the other possibilities include:

It was their time to die but the reason for it was not yet set. Had it not been murder they could've died in a car accident shortly thereafter.

or

God has a set time for everyone to die, but will not interfere with free will, so by murdering someone one goes against God's plan, which is surely a grave sin. However this would not mean God is incapable of preventing an untimely death, but merely unwilling to interfere with our own free will.

or

A number of other possibilities which if you're really interested in knowing and not just trolling I'm sure you can think of yourself.

[General Septem]

So then, with certain conditions, murder is forgiveable.

Murder is always forgiveable if you repent. The only sin that is not forgiveable is the one not repented of.

[Ausinus]

But what about non christians? The law is humanist law, not christian law.

[General Septem]

But what about non christians? The law is humanist law, not christian law.

What about them? What are you talking about?

[Ausinus]

What about non christians, who cannot repent? Does this give christians a right to murder people so long as they repent?

[MrBirdy]

But the other possibilities include:

It was their time to die but the reason for it was not yet set. Had it not been murder they could've died in a car accident shortly thereafter.

or

God has a set time for everyone to die, but will not interfere with free will, so by murdering someone one goes against God's plan, which is surely a grave sin. However this would not mean God is incapable of preventing an untimely death, but merely unwilling to interfere with our own free will.

or

A number of other possibilities which if you're really interested in knowing and not just trolling I'm sure you can think of yourself.


Ok, so god will not interfere with free will, which as god is all knowing, he would know that the victim would be murdered, whether or not we have free will. see, god would know that the assassin would kill the victim years before it happend, so in that case, murder would be part of god's plan, and therefore would be god's idea, and choice to give birth to the murderer which would kill the innocent victim. So by that, god could not punish the murderer without contradicting himself. Since we do have free will, but god knows everything before we do it.

Therefore there would have been no reason to have established the 10 commandments if he (being all powerful) would have made humans with a better sence of reason, so that we wouldn't lie cheat and steal. He would have corrected our glitchy mind to not kill. and that makes the ten commandmnets useless.

[General Septem]

What about non christians, who cannot repent? Does this give christians a right to murder people so long as they repent?

Nobody has a right to murder anyone, but if you repent your sins will be forgiven. The catch is, you have to be truely sorry... and only God knows that.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Therefore there would have been no reason to have established the 10 commandments if he (being all powerful) would have made humans with a better sence of reason, so that we wouldn't lie cheat and steal. He would have corrected our glitchy mind to not kill. and that makes the ten commandmnets useless.

On that argument I believe that one can conclude that, so long as we accept hat god exists, even god is unable to foresee the future. It could very well be that God does not have a plan or knowledge for all of what is to come. This does not make it impossible for god to exist. It just changes the understanding of just what God is.

[MrBirdy]

On that argument I believe that one can conclude that, so long as we accept hat god exists, even god is unable to foresee the future. It could very well be that God does not have a plan or knowledge for all of what is to come. This does not make it impossible for god to exist. It just changes the understanding of just what God is.

But that means that the bible is a LIAR!!
becouse it states that god is all knowing, well actually it states that he is all powerfull, but that means he has the power to forsee the future.

So therfore you, mr brains behind just said it yourself:
THE BIBLE LIES!! WHAT OTHER THINGS ARE LIES!!

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

becouse it states that god is all knowing, well actually it states that he is all powerfull, but that means he has the power to forsee the future.

That is one way to translate it. But the bible has been translated many different ways. Who is to say that your translation of it is the correct one?


So therfore you, mr brains behind just said it yourself:
THE BIBLE LIES!! WHAT OTHER THINGS ARE LIES!!

I never did. You are focusing on one conclusion which supports your argument. Look for other conclusions. But I'm not saying that the bible is perfect either. It does not hurt me at all to suppose that even a text as revered as the Bible is could have some errors in it. So what? I like to look beyond errors and find true reasoning.

[thememan]

But that means that the bible is a LIAR!!
becouse it states that god is all knowing, well actually it states that he is all powerfull, but that means he has the power to forsee the future.

So therfore you, mr brains behind just said it yourself:
THE BIBLE LIES!! WHAT OTHER THINGS ARE LIES!!

If God is all-powerful, then God has the power to choose to not forsee the future. Although he is ABLE to, it is possible that he chooses not to.

Remember-I'm not Christian, infact I have no religion. I can at least try to understand Religion though.

[Ausinus]

But why wouldnt god choose not to?

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

A good question, but maybe we have just not yet developed enough mentally to see and understand all of God's reasons.

[Ausinus]

A good question, but maybe we have just not yet developed enough mentally to see and understand all of God's reasons.

As for myself, it can be explained in a single quote-

"All Knowledge is Human Knowledge" - George Hegel

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I think that is too arogant a quote. Humans believe that they are the only form with any knowledge only because they have yet to find any proof otherwise. Some things should be left up for question until proof is provided to support one side or the other, until then we should try to be humble.

[Ausinus]

I think that is too arogant a quote. Humans believe that they are the only form with any knowledge only because they have yet to find any proof otherwise. Some things should be left up for question until proof is provided to support one side or the other, until then we should try to be humble.

Well it was Hegel lol:D

So I will go with another

]"Man Makes Himself"[/I] - Jean Paul Sartre

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I can accept that.:p

Who is Hegel anyway?

[Ausinus]

I can accept that.:p

Who is Hegel anyway?

Georg Wilhelm Freiderich Hegel was an idealist philosopher who lived in Germany from 1770-1831 CE. He used to give day long, boring lectures about philosophy. He said people will eventually know every thing, the logic of god being the last thing they would learn.:D

[ANarchy12]

where is god where is god where is god where is god where is god

[theicidal maniac]

Ok so there is this HUGE fucking database called the fossil record, right, pretty much irrefutably and indisputably shows that humans have been evolving for scores of thousands of years, and we have the missing links and there are literally BILLIONS of bones to show the actual progression from species to species, and on the other hand you have the creation story that cannot and never can be substantiated by or reconciled with what we KNOW to be true about the planet and the universe.

That said, I have a question for those of you who believe somehow in BOTH evolution and the literal truth of the creation story of Genesis. If God created us in his own image......following?.....and we have PROOF that we have evolved from neanderthal, australopithicus, etc to show that when we started we DID NOT look like we do know...Is God a caveman? and why do you worship him you damn retards!

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

It just may be that God did create us in his own image but he needed or decided to let us evolve into what is his image. Maybe we haven't even finished evolving into what is the image of God yet, which may be why we continue to question his existance.

Why would someone worship their creator? Are you serious? If you truly believed the same things that those of who worship him do would you not understand why?

[theicidal maniac]

It IS possible to prove god exists...IF god exists. If you say "god exists," that is something which is either true of this universe or is not true. It is a scientific statement and therefore testable. If some thing exists and you "know where to look for it" (to quote Septic, I believe) then you should be able to find evidence of that things existence. So far this has not been done....thousands of years isn't long enough I guess.
One thing you CANNOT logically do is prove that something DOES NOT exist. If I say I have a purple box on my lap, NO ONE CAN PROVE THAT I DO NOT, provided I say it is a shade of purple that is undetectable by human eyes and man-made technology, it is gassy so you can't feel it, etc, etc...there is always a way out, an escape. If I believe it is there I may be psychotic to think that, but if I say that I prayed to God and he told me that it is there and I manage to convince a few other people, all of a sudden you're supposed to "respect my religious beliefs."
What you can do is mathematically rule out the probability of the existence of certain things, to the point where they may as well not exist. This is what most premiere scientists, like Richard Dawkins and Natalie Angiers believe is a very near horizon for the likelihood of God

[General Septem]

But I'm not talking about something undetectable by human eyes. I'm talking about something that's very visible by everyone, yet not everyone recognizes Him.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

So what do you have to say about all the stories that you hear about people seeing God or proof there-of Mr. Science?

[MrBirdy]

But I'm not talking about something undetectable by human eyes. I'm talking about something that's very visible by everyone, yet not everyone recognizes Him.

have you ever seen him, i have seen that there is more proof of there being aliens (given there are pictures, whether they are true or not.) than ANY god!!

Unless ofcourse the grey men are our gods...

[who897]

Unicorns, Santa Clause, Hot Morbidly Obese Chick, Griffins, Flying Carpets, Dragons, These are just a few of my favorite things. So, apparently if there is a god, then these things should exist also.

[thememan]

So what do you have to say about all the stories that you hear about people seeing God or proof there-of Mr. Science?

What do you say to all those people whom claim they see spirits, daemons, ghosts, etc?

And what, might I ask, is the "proof" of God? God, almost by definition, can not be proven, nor disproven. Proof is the antithesis of faith. Faith is to believe, proof is to know.

[Ausinus]

A debate between Man and God

God: I refuse to prove that I exist. For proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing.
Man: Ah, but you have proven you exist; because the Babel fish is so useful it had to be made through intelligent design. Therefore by your argument, you do not exist. QED.
God: Oh dear, I hadnt thought of that.
[God vanishes in a puff of logic]

[thememan]

A debate between Man and God

God: I refuse to prove that I exist. For proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing.
Man: Ah, but you have proven you exist; because the Babel fish is so useful it had to be made through intelligent design. Therefore by your argument, you do not exist. QED.
God: Oh dear, I hadnt thought of that.
[God vanishes in a puff of logic]

Greatest. Line. Ever. From any book or movie, for that matter. HGTTG ftw.

[Ausinus]

Thanks. I love Douglas Adams:D

[theicidal maniac]

What do you say to all those people who claim to have seen the Loch Ness monster?

And Again, If some thing exists and you "know where to look for it" (to quote Septic, I believe) then you should be able to find evidence of that things existence. So far this has not been done....thousands of years isn't long enough I guess.

[MrBirdy]

What do you say to all those people who claim to have seen the Loch Ness monster?

And Again, If some thing exists and you "know where to look for it" (to quote Septic, I believe) then you should be able to find evidence of that things existence. So far this has not been done....thousands of years isn't long enough I guess.

Well, there is "evidence" saying that ol' nessy exists, by that, of course i mean blurry ass pictures, but if you are going to talk about the SCI-FI, i think that there is substantailly more proof that aliens exist, rather than god.

[who897]

I believe I know dingleberries exist. I even think I have a recolection of where they may dwell. I think it's close to where religious idea's come from.

[Ausinus]

Where are you talking about? Utah?:D

[who897]

Close, but the smell is better where my dingleberries dwell.

[Ausinus]

Oh give me a home, where the dingleberries grow.

Wtf is a dingleberry?

[theicidal maniac]

hey I live in Utah, and it does have it's fair share of dingleberries, but it's funny that WHO says that cuz when I lived in Alaska it was Russian Orthodox central! Also seemed to be the drunken-wife-beating capitol of the planet...no offense...I still liked it better than Utah

[Ausinus]

In soviet russia, wife beats YOU!

[MrBirdy]

In soviet russia, wife beats YOU!

Just love a good yakov

[who897]

Dingleberries are those pieces of hair that hang off your ass that have a piece of crusted shit (the berry part) hanging off the end.

There is a shit ton of churches here, not quite sure the denominations though. I've only had 2 instences where people tried to preach to me, pretty sure I put a stop to that. Must be, they have this thing called WAVE, women against violent e (something or another) never heard of it any other place I've been stationed or lived. The town I'm stationed in though it's like a freaking Mr. Rodgers show, don't think there is much domestic violence. They put everything that the police are called for (I mean every fucking thing, like the power goes out, people call the cops instead of the utility company) and there are very few wife beatings.
Ohh AK is a beautiful state, I'll give it that, but I am ready to get my italian ass back to the east coast and civilization. :D