Religion in the school systems

[ajk]

Since this has been a rather hot topic in recent years, thought I might start a debate on the matter. For it or against it? I'm for it as you might have guessed, since without God none of us would be here to begin with, and I feel that shunning the one who created us by not acknowledging Him is stupid and makes no sense. It would be like saying you don't have a Father.

[LordRuin]

Since this has been a rather hot topic in recent years, thought I might start a debate on the matter. For it or against it? I'm for it as you might have guessed, since without God none of us would be here to begin with, and I feel that shunning the one who created us by not acknowledging Him is stupid and makes no sense. It would be like saying you don't have a Father.

Well, I don't belive in the fucker! And therefore I don't want Him forced on me! OR my kids, if i ever have any! Not by a pathetic human at least! If he exist, he is laughing his ass off at people like you!

[ajk]

Somehow I doubt that.

[LordRuin]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA, whatever....

Look around will you? look at the world! He don't give a DAMN!!! especially not about whether people learn about him in school! thats ridiculous!

So what you are saying is... if you don't believe in god you go to hell? You one of the fear spreaders? Well, fuck that!

[ajk]

The only reason we are where we are in this world, is because we ourselves did this. God didn't do this, nor does he not care, cause I can assure you he does. We are responsible for all the problems in the world.

[MrBirdy]

In my opinion:

Religion should not be forced upon schools, for the simple fact that no mortal is absolutely, 100% guaranteed sure which religion is right. I was baptised into a christian family, and no one in family would agree with you AJK, becouse they all know that religion is a choice, dont believe me, read your bible.
If god wanted to be in the school system he would have said "thou shalt put me in your schools, no matter what time"
or some BS like that.

Religion is a choice, and schools are not a choice, well atleast not until after middle-school do you have the choice to quit. and even then there is still laws that requier students to attend school until they are 18 in some states.

So, if we did put religion in school which one? Muslim, catholic, Christian?

WE shouldn't put either one in, becouse lets face it, which is right? We all know that to increase our odds of a succesful future we need Math. and science. and english, or another language.
So, no we should not put religion in our schools, and people who say yes, only care about them and their own selfish needs, of their own.

[Ausinus]

No religion in schools! Education is a secular activity and secular it should remain. Also, why would you want to?

Having religion in schools
-does not boost grades
-does not encourage free thinking
-does not mpress objective knowledge upon students.
-does create bias and religious intolerance
-can encourage students to take knowledge, true or false, on faith alone
-acts as a tantamount to the state establishing a state religion

[England Expects]

The teaching of religion in schools isnt necessarily a bad thing in certain contexts.

I would have no problem with a school teaching my children what Christians, Muslims, Jews, Sikhs believe. I would have a problem with them instructing my kids about which one is right.

Belief in a religion should be a personal choice and not forced upon anyone by the state.

[General Septem]

No religion in schools! Education is a secular activity and secular it should remain. Also, why would you want to?

Having religion in schools
-does not boost grades
-does not encourage free thinking
-does not mpress objective knowledge upon students.
-does create bias and religious intolerance
-can encourage students to take knowledge, true or false, on faith alone
-acts as a tantamount to the state establishing a state religion

Yes, but the way things are
-encourage irresponsibility
-lead to teenage pregnancy
-often does not result in good grades either
-does not encourage self esteem
-does not teach self-defense in any sense of the word (including emotionally)
-does not introduce morality that would benefit society
-enforces too much control but not enough discipline
-teaches lies such as why smoking marijuana is bad and that condoms are effective against all STDs and all pregnancy

[Ausinus]

Yes, but the way things are
-encourage irresponsibility
-often does not result in good grades either
-does not encourage self esteem
-enforces too much control but not enough discipline

I agree on these points. The curriculum and education system needs to be revised.


-does not introduce morality that would benefit society

Actually they do, they support the ideas that freethinking and knowledge are the highest skills, which they are.


-does not teach self-defense in any sense of the word (including emotionally)

And so they shouldn't. Self defense should be taught through other methods. Schools are institutes of academics.


-lead to teenage pregnancy
-teaches lies such as why smoking marijuana is bad and that condoms are effective against all STDs and all pregnancy

I dont know what school you went to but if anything having schools that have drug and sex ed classes are a societal neccessity. Schools do not preach false reasons against marajuana usage, it is bad for you. And how does it lead to teen pregnancy? Schools do not preach that condoms are the end all solution, they are only the most effective protection and contraceptive.

[General Septem]

Actually they do, they support the ideas that freethinking and knowledge are the highest skills, which they are.

Freethinking meaning agree with the government, and if you don't you're a terrorist. Freethinking meaning marijuana is bad and you must believe that or you are a bad kid. What they don't teach is morals that are beneficial to society, like love.


And so they shouldn't. Self defense should be taught through other methods. Schools are institutes of academics.

School is a vessel for teaching anything that everyone would benefit from knowing. That's why in addition to history and English, there are also PE, art, shop, and home ec. Self defense is something everyone needs to be adept in. It is more important even than history or English, because if we can't defend ourselves from attackers none of our other knowledge will do much good.

It is, however, a hurdle to overcome if you happen to be a corrupt government who wants to excersize control. This is because people who can defend themselves are not dependent on the government.


I dont know what school you went to but if anything having schools that have drug and sex ed classes are a societal neccessity. Schools do not preach false reasons against marajuana usage, it is bad for you.

Not as bad as they make it out to be: http://www.newspeakdictionary.com/ct-pot.html


And how does it lead to teen pregnancy? Schools do not preach that condoms are the end all solution, they are only the most effective protection and contraceptive.

They don't teach that self-control is a virtue. And after all, if we can control ourselves, then there's little hope for the government to be able to control us.

[twisted_screams]

Personally i dont think schools should have religon mainly because there are so many religons out there and so many different feelings on religonthat it often causes heated debates among adult can you picture what it would do among kids i see alot of fighting etc I think the schools should teach morals however> i think they should teach kids about respect and loyalty and teach kids that its not all about them and what they want.
but this is just one moms opinion;)

[Ausinus]

Freethinking is not agreeing with the government! Freethinking is recieving knowledge and making decisions based on that knowledge. As Socrates said "Ignorance is the only evil". Schools teach that marajuana use is bad for your health in an objective man. They attempt to reduce the usage of marajuana through teaching the harmful consquences of it.It is society which impresses the stigma upon usage.


because if we can't defend ourselves from attackers none of our other knowledge will do much good

Perhaps you are forgetting that technology can help us defend ourselves, which is a product of science. Also, history is important to relearn the mistakes of the past. English is important to understand human motivation and societal impacts upon a person. In your model, if self defense were given more importance than these subjects then we would indeed be the pawns of the government. Have you ever read Farenheit 451?


People who can defend themselves are not dependent on the government

This is untrue. Even someone who can defend themselves is dependent on the government.

If doctors and physicians have declared that marajuana is unhealthy enough to be banned, and they have produced evidence for it, we should accept it. This is not an isolated thing in the US, many other countries whose government is more liberal had banned marajuana due to thier scientists doing studies. This rules out your argument of government contamination.

Self control in your context is restraint, and i do not see how having restraint over sexual intercourse will keep your government from controlling you. Perhaps if we weren't too busy having sex all the time, then we could have a truly democratic government.

[General Septem]

Freethinking is not agreeing with the government! Freethinking is recieving knowledge and making decisions based on that knowledge. As Socrates said "Ignorance is the only evil". Schools teach that marajuana use is bad for your health in an objective man. They attempt to reduce the usage of marajuana through teaching the harmful consquences of it.It is society which impresses the stigma upon usage.

But in the mean time they lie about its effects and overexaggerate the effects it really does have. As I see it there is absolutely no reason for marijuana to be illegal if alcohol and tobacco are legal.


Perhaps you are forgetting that technology can help us defend ourselves, which is a product of science. Also, history is important to relearn the mistakes of the past. English is important to understand human motivation and societal impacts upon a person. In your model, if self defense were given more importance than these subjects then we would indeed be the pawns of the government. Have you ever read Farenheit 451?

I never once said nothing else is important. I merely said that you could be the smartest person in the world, but if you can't defend yourself and someone meets you in a dark alley, your knowledge is for shit.


This is untrue. Even someone who can defend themselves is dependent on the government.

Not me. Someone could blow up Washington DC and hunt down every senator, representative, police officer, member of the cabinet, and anyone else in charge of running the country and I wouldn't shed one tear. The minute we are dependent on the government is the minute we lose our freedom to the bastards. They are here to serve us, not the other way around. That is why I have no patience for the weak, because even though I am strong, it is because the majority of the population is becoming weaker and weaker that I will eventually lose my freedom as well.


If doctors and physicians have declared that marajuana is unhealthy enough to be banned, and they have produced evidence for it, we should accept it.

I've yet to see any of this evidence.


This is not an isolated thing in the US, many other countries whose government is more liberal had banned marajuana due to thier scientists doing studies. This rules out your argument of government contamination.

The banning of marijuana is no different than prohibition. It's the government telling us they know what's best for us, better than we do. Hard drugs like crack cocaine and ecstacy are another matter, because they lure their victims in and grab hold of them, eating away at their life like an eel or a snake, but all marijuana does is lower inhibitions and make people relaxed. It's not even all that addictive, even though its effects might be.


Self control in your context is restraint, and i do not see how having restraint over sexual intercourse will keep your government from controlling you. Perhaps if we weren't too busy having sex all the time, then we could have a truly democratic government.

Self control includes controlling our passions, but it's also exactly what it sounds like - control over ourselves. Not slave to our passions, nor the law, but free to do what we believe is right. Not because we have to but because we know that doing the right thing is the only way to peace.

The government would have us believe the only way to peace is to have a world government which will regulate every aspect of society, from how we drive, to what we put in our bodies, to how we brush our fucking teeth.

[Ausinus]

As I see it there is absolutely no reason for marijuana to be illegal if alcohol and tobacco are legal.

Hmm, well i agree with you on this point. Tobacco does do a LOT of damage and they should ban it too. Alcohol however should not be banned, it is fine if taken in moderation, its just over drinking can result in bodily damage.

I think we forgot one element in the school system: parents.:eek: I believe they must be the reason that the negative effects of marajuana are emphasised. You know how overprotective parents can be.


you could be the smartest person in the world, but if you can't defend yourself and someone meets you in a dark alley, your knowledge is for shit.

Ah but if you had knowledge, wouldnt you avoid said dark alley?

We are dependent on the government for order (despite mentioned drawbacks) and to prevent anarchy. Also, a government is inevitable, there have always been dominant people ruling over the weak.

In relation to the marajuana argument, I revise it. There are too many studies in conflict to ascertain viable info, so I will let the issue down.


The banning of marijuana is no different than prohibition. It's the government telling us they know what's best for us, better than we do.

But, prohibition was enacted due to considerably public outcry against alcohol. Remember; 'Publiam Potestas Ex'.


The government would have us believe the only way to peace is to have a world government which will regulate every aspect of society, from how we drive, to what we put in our bodies, to how we brush our fucking teeth

Haha thats exactly government is! Why do you think people become politicians?:D

[General Septem]

Ah but if you had knowledge, wouldnt you avoid said dark alley?

If I was smart, which I am, I would not live in fear.


We are dependent on the government for order (despite mentioned drawbacks) and to prevent anarchy. Also, a government is inevitable, there have always been dominant people ruling over the weak.

There's nothing wrong with anarchy. :D


Haha thats exactly government is! Why do you think people become politicians?:D

Haha, exactly. :D

But it doesn't make it right.

[Ausinus]

Lol lets just agree that govt. sucks shit and the schools are slaves to parents.:D

[Chigun]

First to Mr.Birdy near the start there. You tell me to read my Bible? Alright... how about Proverbs 22:6...

"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it."

It may just be me but, I don't think training a child without the knowledge of God is what was intended there...

Now to Ausinus, I realize you've posted a lot but let me comment on the core of your statements. First you say that curriculum and education need to be revised. It may just be me, but if I saw myself as nothing but a compilation of animo acids and molecules trying to get to death as easy as possible, I wouldn't give a shit. To be blunt, I don't see how it can be revised without admitting that there's more than science. But if you have a better idea, so be it.

I have to agree with something Septem said as well. The government (Hollywood,etc as well) has an incredible sway on the train of thought of the entire nation. For example right now the big thing is changing "Merry Christmas" to "Happy holidays." It's almost like a domino effect, every man woman and child, commercial and billboard has fallen in line. (That being a hyperbole of course.) yet these same people down me, saying I'm not a freethinker. Kind of boils the blood, you know? :P Freethinking may not in definition be agreeing with the government, but DAMN a lot sure seem to.

I guess that's all I have to say. About Mary Jane, though-- It kills consumerism. Think about it. People smoke, the economy suffers. ;)

[beelzebub]

First to Mr.Birdy near the start there. You tell me to read my Bible? Alright... how about Proverbs 22:6...

"Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it."

"...the way he should go..." what is the way he should go. I see this as very open to interpretation.


It may just be me but, I don't think training a child without the knowledge of God is what was intended there...

Yep,... its just you. I dont see how you could say anything about god in it either.


For example right now the big thing is changing "Merry Christmas" to "Happy holidays." It's almost like a domino effect, every man woman and child, commercial and billboard has fallen in line. yet these same people down me, saying I'm not a freethinker. Kind of boils the blood, you know? :P Freethinking may not in definition be agreeing with the government, but DAMN a lot sure seem to.

I am not sure I get you here. I see the trend of moving from "Merry Christmas" to "Happy Holidays" as an effort to be more inclusive of other people. If you choose to still use "Merry Christmas" I don't see how anyone could say that you are being narrow and keep a straight face.

[Chigun]

First, that verse comes from proverbs, which is all about things one should know and the way one should go. I'm pretty sure in context it's speaking of the things -in- proverbs, which is certanly not what public schools are doing.

Your second quote is along the same line. That was in the bible in a book about knowledge and wisdom in God. So in context it's easy to say there is something about God.

Third, I don't see a problem opening this season up to all religions, but in an effort to not offend anyone the entire Christmas theme is being expunged. Take a look at Best buy, as of now their campaign is to 'wow' people with gifts. All meaning is gone because of political correctness.

...And believe it or not, people are offended by merry christmas. Hell, not just with me, take a look at the guy who burned himself because a school district decided to call the break 'Christmas break'... tsch..

[who897]

First, that verse comes from proverbs, which is all about things one should know and the way one should go. I'm pretty sure in context it's speaking of the things -in- proverbs, which is certanly not what public schools are doing.

Your second quote is along the same line. That was in the bible in a book about knowledge and wisdom in God. So in context it's easy to say there is something about God.

Third, I don't see a problem opening this season up to all religions, but in an effort to not offend anyone the entire Christmas theme is being expunged. Take a look at Best buy, as of now their campaign is to 'wow' people with gifts. All meaning is gone because of political correctness.

...And believe it or not, people are offended by merry christmas. Hell, not just with me, take a look at the guy who burned himself because a school district decided to call the break 'Christmas break'... tsch..

Drop the damn "christ" from christmas, and make it Xmas. This isn't a religious holiday anymore, and nor should it be. This is the United States of America, not United States of Religion. Religion has no place in schools, in government, or in public.

[beelzebub]

Drop the damn "christ" from christmas, and make it Xmas. This isn't a religious holiday anymore, and nor should it be. This is the United States of America, not United States of Religion. Religion has no place in schools, in government, or in public.

THANK YOU - I agree 100%

[theicidal maniac]

Since this has been a rather hot topic in recent years, thought I might start a debate on the matter. For it or against it? I'm for it as you might have guessed, since without God none of us would be here to begin with, and I feel that shunning the one who created us by not acknowledging Him is stupid and makes no sense. It would be like saying you don't have a Father.

You WOULD be. What are you talking about "religion in the school systems?" That's so vague. Should children take the Eucharist or bring their prayer mat? I guarantee that would turn everyone Muslim, because Muslims get tons of prayer breaks where you get to lay down. I for one say we destroy this shitty smelling relic of our infancy...burn the security blanket! Religion has no place in a public school, just like intelligent thought has no place in a church!

Besides, school is a place to learn facts.

[ajk]

Which is that there is a God. I don't care if you believe it or you don't, it is and forever will be, that's forever will be a fact.

[Ausinus]

It hasnt been proven. It isnt a fact. There is no way to prove the existence of any God.

And you guys are lucky, you havent been to a school where they have religion. [shudders]

[ajk]

It hasnt been proven. It isnt a fact. There is no way to prove the existence of any God.


Don't have to, I know and believe it to be a fact.

[Ausinus]

If it is truth you dont have to believe it. No duh.

There has been no empirical evidence to prove the existence of God. Therefore, not a fact.

[who897]

Don't have to, I know and believe it to be a fact.

I know and believe you to be wrong. Any hoot. Public school is for the pulbic not the religious. It is not another church, and kids should not be forced to learn about some mythical god. If the parents are totally fucking loopy and must have their children learn religion in school, send them to a religious school. My tax dollars will not be spent on some freaking idiotic idea of supreme beings.

[Chigun]

Alright who, the founding fathers may not have been Christians, but they were deists (Belief in a God.) Last time I checked those were the people who founded this country. The separation clause people seem to have orgasms over was never intended to be what it is today...

...But since you can string those words together I guess it has to be true.. I didn't know you had to have the word "Religion" in a country for it to allow religion in public places though... hmmm...

Beelzebub I'm not going to ask why you didn't respond to my last post, but to his instead. But whatever. His argument does go beyond that one level, I suppose.

Wait a minute guys, stop the presses. God hasn't been proven? Oh man, news to me, but anything that isn't hard science is BULL SHIT, right? From a purely biological standpoint-- ye... er no. Actually even from that standpoint there is evidence of God. Anyone want to explain how the first life got here with the complexities of DNA in even the most simplest of lifeforms? How did it come to being, and how did the first organism suddenly learn something as insane as reproduction?

What about irreducible complexity? Wouldn't evolution eliminate parts of our complex eye before everything was together required to work? (Unless the optic nerve, retina, iris, cones, rods all proofed into existence at once.) What about our organ systems which rely on eachother? Did they do fine in parts before the many years required to mesh them together?

Now I can go on and we can debate that if anyone is up and willing here, but my POINT is it's very convenient to lay back, say there's no proof, and write him off (Saying fancy words like 'idiotic' which somehow wins the argument.. o_O) because of whatever personal reason you don't feel comfortable with.

They teach one view not fully proven in schools, why not allow a few mentions of an alternative?

[who897]

Alright who, the founding fathers may not have been Christians, but they were deists (Belief in a God.) Last time I checked those were the people who founded this country. The separation clause people seem to have orgasms over was never intended to be what it is today...

...But since you can string those words together I guess it has to be true.. I didn't know you had to have the word "Religion" in a country for it to allow religion in public places though... hmmm...

Beelzebub I'm not going to ask why you didn't respond to my last post, but to his instead. But whatever. His argument does go beyond that one level, I suppose.

Wait a minute guys, stop the presses. God hasn't been proven? Oh man, news to me, but anything that isn't hard science is BULL SHIT, right? From a purely biological standpoint-- ye... er no. Actually even from that standpoint there is evidence of God. Anyone want to explain how the first life got here with the complexities of DNA in even the most simplest of lifeforms? How did it come to being, and how did the first organism suddenly learn something as insane as reproduction?

What about irreducible complexity? Wouldn't evolution eliminate parts of our complex eye before everything was together required to work? (Unless the optic nerve, retina, iris, cones, rods all proofed into existence at once.) What about our organ systems which rely on eachother? Did they do fine in parts before the many years required to mesh them together?

Now I can go on and we can debate that if anyone is up and willing here, but my POINT is it's very convenient to lay back, say there's no proof, and write him off (Saying fancy words like 'idiotic' which somehow wins the argument.. o_O) because of whatever personal reason you don't feel comfortable with.

They teach one view not fully proven in schools, why not allow a few mentions of an alternative?


I really like how you made this really long, trying to pump yourself up to some grand finale. Yet it seems like ramblings. I fail to see proof of god, but I don't know what you were trying to say, once again rambling on's. They shouldn't teach any views in school. School isn't meant to be another avenue for religious recruitment.

[Chigun]

The intent was not to prove God, it would take someone like God to do that. Also I'm not trying to make myself look smart, I'll be the first to say that I'm quite dumb. :)

I was simply asking questions about evolution (which they teach in public school as law), that I want answers to. If evolution dosn't exist, then there is a god, unless you have some other alternative.


And I'll say again... the founding fathers (At least some of them) of this great country did believe in a God and built principles around that, including trying to end oppression in the church.

[who897]

Evolution through science is a hell of a lot more plausable though. It is the most logical of any theory yet stated.

[theicidal maniac]

Which is that there is a God. I don't care if you believe it or you don't, it is and forever will be, that's forever will be a fact.

You are exhibiting psychosis : a fixed, false belief, despite evidence to the contrary.

[Chigun]

Evolution through science is a hell of a lot more plausable though. It is the most logical of any theory yet stated.

Yes but is it true.... o_O

[theicidal maniac]

I was simply asking questions about evolution (which they teach in public school as law), that I want answers to. If evolution dosn't exist, then there is a god, unless you have some other alternative.

They teach evolution IN SCIENCE CLASS because IT IS SCIENCE. That's not what the laws are about. The legal battles that have been fought are to keep "intelligent design theory" and "creation science" OUT of the science class because THEY ARE NOT SCIENCE! You can teach that stuff at public school...but only in the seminary building, and that's the way it should be. If you want your kid to learn about YOUR God in school send them to a private religious institution, not to a public school where there are people of multiple faiths.

[who897]

Is it true? To me perhaps, I wont argue that. Does it give an explination through science that is in no way distorting folk into believing in a religious context? Sure is. Theology is something that should be keep to one's self and not to the masses.


Damn it, I just hit the mark of the beast post, and I couldn't do it in the Landfill at the 1000 post thread....dang it. Should have paid more attention. LOL :D

[Ausinus]

Ive seen what happens at places where they actually do have religion in schools. Non-christians are excluded from events because they dont want to "praise the lord". Its bullshit.

Keep religion out of ours schools, and off our money.:mad:

[Ausinus]

And I'll say again... the founding fathers (At least some of them) of this great country did believe in a God and built principles around that, including trying to end oppression in the church.

This was not intended to be a christian nation, the intent of the founding fathers was to found a secular nation where people could be free to worship what they wanted without fear of persecution. Thomas Jefferson was heavily influenced by the teachings of John Locke on this matter, who taught that all people are equal and should have equal rights free from religious bias.

[theicidal maniac]

And I'll say again... the founding fathers (At least some of them) of this great country did believe in a God and built principles around that, including trying to end oppression in the church.

"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of reason." (Benjamin Franklin)

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect." (James Madison)

[Ausinus]

"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of reason." (Benjamin Franklin)

Hey thats my quote:D

[General Septem]

"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of reason." (Benjamin Franklin)

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect." (James Madison)

Just because someone said those quotes doesn't make them true. Quoting scientists' ideas on religion is a lot like quoting religious leaders' ideas on science.

[theicidal maniac]

Just because someone said those quotes doesn't make them true. Quoting scientists' ideas on religion is a lot like quoting religious leaders' ideas on science.

Read the WHOLE THING dumbass;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chigun
And I'll say again... the founding fathers (At least some of them) of this great country did believe in a God and built principles around that, including trying to end oppression in the church.


"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of reason." (Benjamin Franklin)

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect." (James Madison)

[General Septem]

Read the WHOLE THING dumbass;
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chigun
And I'll say again... the founding fathers (At least some of them) of this great country did believe in a God and built principles around that, including trying to end oppression in the church.


"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of reason." (Benjamin Franklin)

"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprize, every expanded prospect." (James Madison)

Well in that case, considering the number of founding fathers the country had, "at least some of them" or even if he'd said "most of them" would still allow for a couple nutjobs here and there.

[ajk]

To those who say that if people want to learn religion then go to a religious school, understand that you're discriminating against religious people then. It would be the same thing as segregated schools way back when.

[theicidal maniac]

To those who say that if people want to learn religion then go to a religious school, understand that you're discriminating against religious people then. It would be the same thing as segregated schools way back when.

That is total bullshit. No one CHOOSES to be mexican or black or caucasian. They can't change that and shouldn't be asked to. Religion is ENTIRELY DIFFERENT. You CHOOSE to ignore your common sense and logic, you CHOOSE to believe what you do despite lack of evidence in favor of the beliefs. That is your choice to believe something that is not verifiable. School is about LEARNING REAL THINGS and FACTS andthings that are TESTABLE and FALSIFIABLE. Also it is about learning PRACTICAL job-related skills. Religious beliefs do not fall under these categories unless you want to be a clergyman, in which case you would be far better off at a religious institution ANYWAY!

No one is saying "keep the Jews out of our schools" here...they are saying DON'T TEACH JUDAISM. You are talking about having YOUR BELIEFS ABOUT GOD taught in schools because you assume they are correct...but if it was Islam that people were trying to bring into the public schools you'd change your tune real quick!

[General Septem]

That is total bullshit. No one CHOOSES to be mexican or black or caucasian. They can't change that and shouldn't be asked to....(more hatred and bullshit)

How about race, color, or creed, asshole?

[theicidal maniac]

How about race, color, or creed, asshole?

Creed is voluntary, time to edit that one OUT

[General Septem]

Creed is voluntary, time to edit that one OUT

And in doing so, you'd ask people to change who they are, and while that may be voluntary, it is contrary to a free society.

[theicidal maniac]

And in doing so, you'd ask people to change who they are, and while that may be voluntary, it is contrary to a free society.

I'm not asking anyone to change anything, here...I'm saying that we don't need to teach their BELIEFS in our school. You can attend wherever, just don't expect us to support your garbage

[Ausinus]

A free society is one where people have the option to follow the faith they choose, not one that is ingrained into them at school. Schools are meant to be a place of secular learning. You want to learn about religion, go to a religious school.

[theicidal maniac]

Again...
No one is saying "keep the Jews out of our schools" here...they are saying DON'T TEACH JUDAISM. You are talking about having YOUR BELIEFS ABOUT GOD taught in schools because you assume they are correct...but if it was Islam that people were trying to bring into the public schools you'd change your tune real quick!

[General Septem]

I'm not asking anyone to change anything, here...I'm saying that we don't need to teach their BELIEFS in our school. You can attend wherever, just don't expect us to support your garbage

Then when I said "race, color, or creed", you shouldn't have supported the segregation of the religious by saying creed has to go.

[theicidal maniac]

Then when I said "race, color, or creed", you shouldn't have supported the segregation of the religious by saying creed has to go.

You are very slow. Obviously my personal opinion is that RELIGION NEEDS TO GO...But as far as people go I'm not saying that religious PEOPLE need to go, and they are still citizens of this planet and should be allowed access to the things that the rest of us are allowed access to, however, given the nature of their beliefs they should not have INFLUENCE over certain aspects of our society.

[General Septem]

You are very slow. Obviously my personal opinion is that RELIGION NEEDS TO GO...But as far as people go I'm not saying that religious PEOPLE need to go, and they are still citizens of this planet and should be allowed access to the things that the rest of us are allowed access to, however, given the nature of their beliefs they should not have INFLUENCE over certain aspects of our society.
But by eradicating religion, you are asking people to change who they are, ot influencing people when they are young to not be religious. Teaching children to not be religious, from a neutral point of view, is as bad as teaching them to be religious.

[Chigun]

You know maybe, just maybe an absolute truth free from relative bounds exists. This taken into account, religions shouldn't be completely written off. For education to be complete, students must know a wide variety of things. I'm not saying inculcate these things as truth, I'm saying public schools should take the time to amply cover each religion.

With that said, I don't see why religion has to go if it is balanced in there correctly. After all, once it's done, it's done, students have more insight of reality and what millions believe. If nothing else, they can use that to refute it, or whatever.

[theicidal maniac]

But by eradicating religion, you are asking people to change who they are, ot influencing people when they are young to not be religious. Teaching children to not be religious, from a neutral point of view, is as bad as teaching them to be religious.

You don't have to teach them not to be religious. Plus it isn't just as bad. That's like saying that it is just as bad to teach kids that there ARE gremlins under the bed as it is to teach children that there ARE NOT gremlins under the bed. When it comes to facts, that's what you teach em in school. If you want your kids to learn about things that can't be proven, if you want them to have religious faith, you take them elsewhere...to a house of faith, if you will. School is not a place for faith.

[General Septem]

You don't have to teach them not to be religious. Plus it isn't just as bad. That's like saying that it is just as bad to teach kids that there ARE gremlins under the bed as it is to teach children that there ARE NOT gremlins under the bed. When it comes to facts, that's what you teach em in school. If you want your kids to learn about things that can't be proven, if you want them to have religious faith, you take them elsewhere...to a house of faith, if you will. School is not a place for faith.

The gremlins can be proven to not exist. No religion can be proven wrong through physical means because the very nature of the spiritual world includes not being able to discern it through physical means. Therefore teaching anything regarding the truth of the spiritual world, whether that it does not exist or that it does exist in one form or another, is equally wrong, from a neutral point of view.

[theicidal maniac]

The gremlins can be proven to not exist.

Gremlins can NOT be proved to not exist. NOTHING can be proved not to exist. I can say that they are made of an invisible, odorless gas. Or that they are a shade of green undetectable by humans, or about a billion other possible excuses why they really ARE there but they just don't want us to know about them...you can take your ideas about God and substitute the word God with the word Gremlins and all of a sudden the arguments and claims you make don't seem so credible.


No religion can be proven wrong through physical means because the very nature of the spiritual world includes not being able to discern it through physical means.

Well, being PHYSICAL BEINGS that really is the only way we can detect ANYTHING, so you admit a complete and utter LACK of any proof or reliable info. Also, religious people cling to the scientific findings that they think help their case. People want evidence of things. It's natural. If there is a complete and total lack of any, that is where faith steps in.


Therefore teaching anything regarding the truth of the spiritual world, whether that it does not exist or that it does exist in one form or another, is equally wrong, from a neutral point of view.

However teaching that there is no evidence whatsoever to support certain conclusions is perfectly acceptable, in fact it's WAY better than just making crap up and expecting other people to respect your crap

[General Septem]

Gremlins can NOT be proved to not exist. NOTHING can be proved not to exist. I can say that they are made of an invisible, odorless gas. Or that they are a shade of green undetectable by humans, or about a billion other possible excuses why they really ARE there but they just don't want us to know about them...you can take your ideas about God and substitute the word God with the word Gremlins and all of a sudden the arguments and claims you make don't seem so credible.

At least God is something you can see with eyes of wisdom. Gremlins, even if they exist, they don't affect us in the slightest.

[Ausinus]

You know maybe, just maybe an absolute truth free from relative bounds exists. This taken into account, religions shouldn't be completely written off. For education to be complete, students must know a wide variety of things. I'm not saying inculcate these things as truth, I'm saying public schools should take the time to amply cover each religion.

We can study religion objectivley, as a historical matter, certainly. It is very interesting to see how religion has influenced history.

But religion in schools, this topic, is about allowing prayer and classes where you learn about religion from a religious persepective. These things are unacceptable, the former excludes people because of their choice of faith, and the latter influences people towards the proscribed faith. Both of these things are poorly covered up prosyletism.

[theicidal maniac]

At least God is something you can see with eyes of wisdom. Gremlins, even if they exist, they don't affect us in the slightest.

God only effects you because you believe. People have been killed by voodoo curses because they believed in them. People in India claim to have seen Gishnu, the part-man part-elephant avatar of Krishna. Gremlins effect little kids by giving them sleepless nights. doesn't make em real.

AGAIN...
take your ideas about God and substitute the word God with the word Gremlins and all of a sudden the exact same arguments and claims you make don't seem so credible.

[Ausinus]

Wasnt Ganesha the guy with the elephant head?

[General Septem]

God only effects you because you believe. People have been killed by voodoo curses because they believed in them. People in India claim to have seen Gishnu, the part-man part-elephant avatar of Krishna. Gremlins effect little kids by giving them sleepless nights. doesn't make em real.

You've seen the same God I have. You just don't call it God.

[theicidal maniac]

Wasnt Ganesha the guy with the elephant head?

oh yeah i got Ganesh and Vishnu confused...Ganesh, Yahweh, Jesus, Allah...it's all the same crap

[who897]

The gremlins can be proven to not exist. No religion can be proven wrong through physical means because the very nature of the spiritual world includes not being able to discern it through physical means. Therefore teaching anything regarding the truth of the spiritual world, whether that it does not exist or that it does exist in one form or another, is equally wrong, from a neutral point of view.


Ummm didn't Chevy Make them?

[beelzebub]

I know and believe you to be wrong. Any hoot. Public school is for the pulbic not the religious. It is not another church, and kids should not be forced to learn about some mythical god. If the parents are totally fucking loopy and must have their children learn religion in school, send them to a religious school. My tax dollars will not be spent on some freaking idiotic idea of supreme beings.

I feel the same way. I teach in a VERY diverse school system. My students are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Agnostic & Atheist. Preaching one religion as THE religion would be a slap in their face and very Un-American.

However; I am not opposed to schools having a sociology class on Religions of the World. I had it and I found it to be very interesting and usefull.

[who897]

I feel the same way. I teach in a VERY diverse school system. My students are Christian, Muslim, Jewish, Buddhist, Agnostic & Atheist. Preaching one religion as THE religion would be a slap in their face and very Un-American.

However; I am not opposed to schools having a sociology class on Religions of the World. I had it and I found it to be very interesting and usefull.


I will burn the cross, the star of david, and something Islamic if they try and preach in class......as a protest..... :D

[Ausinus]

If you burn any of those things you'll be cast as either a Klan member if you burn the cross, a Neo-Nazi if you burn the star of david or an American Patriot if you burn the Islamic thing.:D

[theicidal maniac]

If you burn any of those things you'll be cast as either a Klan member if you burn the cross, a Neo-Nazi if you burn the star of david or an American Patriot if you burn the Islamic thing.:D

That's why we should burn holy books..heh heh

[who897]

If you burn any of those things you'll be cast as either a Klan member if you burn the cross, a Neo-Nazi if you burn the star of david or an American Patriot if you burn the Islamic thing.:D

I have a decendent that was black, sorta rules out Klan....American Patriot, guilty. I figured if you burn the cross of david you'd be labeled a christian. (Which is way fucking worse then Neo-Nazi) :D

[theicidal maniac]

So, Who...Ausi...Beelz, I guess we won this thread...time for a new one.

[who897]

So, Who...Ausi...Beelz, I guess we won this thread...time for a new one.


Give it enough time, someone will say something along the lines of "But god is the truth and should be taught, or else the children are damned. You wont be thinking like you do in the end". There is always one of those silly little rabbits floating round trying to make me laugh.