FDR & The Depression

[Rise Up]

Check out these articles!! :eek:
(Will continue to add)

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v25n4/powell.pdf

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123353276749137485.html

[yee-haw]

Piss on that bastard too!!:mad:

[Prometheus]

Well if you want to do some good ol fashion democrat bashing, and that is I assume why you made this thread, then let me point out a few things about FDR.

Roosevelt created;

Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)
Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)
U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)
Social Security system
Played a critical role in shaping United Nations

Roosevelt led the United States as it became the "Arsenal of Democracy". Roosevelt, working closely with his aide Harry Hopkins, made the United States the principal arms supplier and financier of the Allies. Roosevelt has been consistently ranked by scholars as one of the greatest U.S. Presidents. Elected to four terms in office, he served from 1933 to 1945 and is the only U.S. president to have served more than two terms.


Primarily this is because rulers of the exchange of mankind's goods have failed through their own stubbornness and their own incompetence, have admitted their failure, and have abdicated. Practices of the unscrupulous money changers stand indicted in the court of public opinion, rejected by the hearts and minds of men. True they have tried, but their efforts have been cast in the pattern of an outworn tradition. Faced by failure of credit they have proposed only the lending of more money. Stripped of the lure of profit by which to induce our people to follow their false leadership, they have resorted to exhortations, pleading tearfully for restored confidence....The money changers have fled from their high seats in the temple of our civilization. We may now restore that temple to the ancient truths. The measure of the restoration lies in the extent to which we apply social values more noble than mere monetary profit.
-Franklin D. Roosevelt

[yee-haw]

Well if you want to do some good ol fashion democrat bashing, and that is I assume why you made this thread, then let me point out a few things about FDR.

Roosevelt created;

Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)
Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)
U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)
Social Security system
Played a critical role in shaping United Nations

Roosevelt led the United States as it became the "Arsenal of Democracy". Roosevelt, working closely with his aide Harry Hopkins, made the United States the principal arms supplier and financier of the Allies. Roosevelt has been consistently ranked by scholars as one of the greatest U.S. Presidents. Elected to four terms in office, he served from 1933 to 1945 and is the only U.S. president to have served more than two terms.


-Franklin D. Roosevelt


Yea the TVA, I'm from there do you even know how many people died when they flooded from watts barr to cred bank?

[Rise Up]

Well if you want to do some good ol fashion democrat bashing, and that is I assume why you made this thread, then let me point out a few things about FDR.

Roosevelt created;

Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation (FDIC)
Tennessee Valley Authority (TVA)
U.S. Securities and Exchange Commission (SEC)
Social Security system
Played a critical role in shaping United Nations

Roosevelt led the United States as it became the "Arsenal of Democracy". Roosevelt, working closely with his aide Harry Hopkins, made the United States the principal arms supplier and financier of the Allies. Roosevelt has been consistently ranked by scholars as one of the greatest U.S. Presidents. Elected to four terms in office, he served from 1933 to 1945 and is the only U.S. president to have served more than two terms.


-Franklin D. Roosevelt

FDIC makes a little sense.

Tennessee Valley Authority strip mined so much shit it isn't even funny. They caused a lot of environmental damage.

Social Security is going to ruin our nation. If we continue to spend more and more taxes on Social Security, eventually everyone will be working to support just one person.

And the UN is shit. The League of Nations made more sense than that pile of crap. The US would've just sat in the corner and listened in with the League of Nations. With the UN we're expected to go out and fix everything up when anything goes wrong.

[Prometheus]

Yea the TVA, I'm from there do you even know how many people died when they flooded from watts barr to cred bank?

Gimmie a link.

[yee-haw]

Dude, I know about the TVA first hand, Don't believe me ask whiteraven...

[Rise Up]

Here's something about an Ash spill. Lemme find some more...

http://www.southernstudies.org/2009/02/more-evidence-of-environmental-health-threats-from-tva-ash-spill.html

[Prometheus]

FDIC makes a little sense.

Tennessee Valley Authority strip mined so much shit it isn't even funny. They caused a lot of environmental damage.

Social Security is going to ruin our nation. If we continue to spend more and more taxes on Social Security, eventually everyone will be working to support just one person.

And the UN is shit. The League of Nations made more sense than that pile of crap. The US would've just sat in the corner and listened in with the League of Nations. With the UN we're expected to go out and fix everything up when anything goes wrong.

Don't even pretend that you understand what FDIC is and why it is necessary, you didn't even know what the federal reserve was, what the Glass-Steagall Act was, and thought the Illuminati was made up for a video game. Stop pretending to know what you are talking about.

[yee-haw]

Gimmie a link.

It's my family history... Trust me but what kinda info do you want, I'll try and find something.
But growing up there and hearing the horror stories was a truth to tell man..Seriously.

[Prometheus]

Dude, I know about the TVA first hand, Don't believe me ask whiteraven...

Gimmie a source. And this has nothing to do with the fact he was elected 4 times !!!!

[Rise Up]

Don't even pretend that you understand what FDIC is and why it is necessary, you didn't even know what the federal reserve was, what the Glass-Steagall Act was, and thought the Illuminati was made up for a video game. Stop pretending to know what you are talking about.

HAHAHA!!! I just went over this shit last year in Modern History!!! Idiot? Me? NOOOO!!!!! :rolleyes:

Check it out!! 1 BILLION gallons of Coal Ash spilled!!! :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Fossil_Plant_coal_fly_ash_slurry_spill

[yee-haw]

Gimmie a source. And this has nothing to do with the fact he was elected 4 times !!!!

That's true, I'm just saying i remember the shit my grandpa and uncles talked about withe the old timers... Just struck a nerve i guess hearing someone bring up the TVA.

[Prometheus]

HAHAHA!!! I just went over this shit last year in Modern History!!! Idiot? Me? NOOOO!!!!! :rolleyes:

Check it out!! 1 BILLION gallons of Coal Ash spilled!!! :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Fossil_Plant_coal_fly_ash_slurry_spill

What the fuck does that have to do with FDIC....... nothing, that's what. Read the post you quoted again genius. :rolleyes:

[Rise Up]

Oh yeah, and the FDIC is basically insurance for your cash if a bank fails. You get at least some of your money back if the bank is gone, from the government I might add.....oh shit. That's NOT good. The government would go deep into debt trying to give people their lost cash back.....course.....we're already 11 TRILLION dollars in debt......

[Prometheus]

That's true, I'm just saying i remember the shit my grandpa and uncles talked about withe the old timers... Just struck a nerve i guess hearing someone bring up the TVA.

Gimmie a source.

[Rise Up]

What the fuck does that have to do with FDIC....... nothing, that's what. Read the post you quoted again genius. :rolleyes:

That link was in reference to the TVA. Dipshit :rolleyes:

[Prometheus]

HAHAHA!!! I just went over this shit last year in Modern History!!! Idiot? Me? NOOOO!!!!! :rolleyes:

Check it out!! 1 BILLION gallons of Coal Ash spilled!!! :eek:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingston_Fossil_Plant_coal_fly_ash_slurry_spill


Lisa Evans, an attorney for Massachusetts-based environmental group Earthjustice, spoke out against the government, accusing them of lax regulations on the issue.

So what you are saying is this is an example of how we need more government regulations on private industry huh ? Didn't expect that coming from you !;)

[Prometheus]

That link was in reference to the TVA. Dipshit :rolleyes:

I didn't ask you about the TVA junior. I said you don't know shit about the FDIC and why we even have it.

[Rise Up]

So what you are saying is this is an example of how we need more government regulations on private industry huh ? Didn't expect that coming from you !;)

NO. Fuck that shit. And fuck that hippie bitch.

[Prometheus]

NO. Fuck that shit. And fuck that hippie bitch.

You don't read anything you source do you !? lol :D

[LedZap]

You don't read anything you source do you !? lol :D

Yeah..sort of like you and this thread :p

http://forum.bullshit.com/showthread.php?t=5374

[LedZap]

Where's your BullShit answer now Bradley?

[Prometheus]

I Read it, and if you knew anything fox didn't tell you you would know that china has a MIXED ECONOMY, and they have more of our factories making our products than we have. I didn't reply because the drivel he spat on that thread wasn't worth the time to type duh ! Let alone anything else. He was once again pretending to know what he was talking about, you know, kinda like you do sometimes.

[yee-haw]

Where's georgia?

I don't get it.

[LedZap]

You mean kinda like you do ALL the time

[Prometheus]

That's all you got eh, "I know you are but what am I". How long did it take your to come up with that little gem. That's you big retort huh? What a waste of fucking time.

[LedZap]

That's what you do...you come on here pretending to know what your talking about...what a fucking joke..

[Montanarchist]

Canad had minuscule bank-regulation in the 1920's, not a single bank tanked.
The US had overt regulations and privileges handed out to certain corporations which created fragile pyramid structures, not to mention the immensely corrupt Federal Reserve.

To give you two interesting quotes:

"Stock prices have reached what looks like a permanently high plateau." - Irving Fisher, 1929

“A great crash is coming, and I don’t want my name in any way connected with it.” - Ludwig von Mises, 1929

For more info, I recommend reading Americas Great Depression by Murray Rothbard.

[WhiteRaven]

Promo, don't even talk about the TVA unless you've seen the bullshit they pull.


why do I hate the TVA? well, There's one little thing they do that makes them fascist dickholes, and that would be forcing people to sell land to them. This is how it happens:

Person: *sitting in his house drinking tea*

TVA: *kicks in door* Hi, take this shitty sum of money that you can't buy any decent amount of land with, we're buying this place that you have lived in your entire life for shit, for we are the TVA!!! GET OFF OUR PROPERTY!!!

Person: *leaves because the Government sucks ass, and is now homeless*

Then later, they build a new house on the land they "bought" from you. simple multiplication can be used to determine what the new house will be sold for.

Assload-of-money

X Whatever-shit-amount-they-paid-you

This wouldn't bother me, except that they not only FORCE you to sell your home, but they don't even negotiate a price. What the hell?! Who the fuck gave them that kind of power, and how the hell did they think it was a good idea?

http://forum.bullshit.com/showthread.php?t=2690&highlight=tennessee+valley+authority

I mean, that's like going up to someone, holding a gun to their head, giving you $2, and taking your clothes. If the TVA came to my house, I'd tell them to keep their money, and take the land, because I sure as hell don't want them pretending they bought it from me.

[Limbo]

Check out these articles!! :eek:
(Will continue to add)

http://newsroom.ucla.edu/portal/ucla/FDR-s-Policies-Prolonged-Depression-5409.aspx

http://www.cato.org/pubs/policy_report/v25n4/powell.pdf

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123353276749137485.html

Excellent articles Rise.

So we can look back at the historical data to compare approaches.

The depression dragged on and on, and according to the experts at UCLA, FDR's interventionist policies prolonged the suffering for years and years.

In contract, we had Reagan taking over from the abysmal failure Carter during hyper inflation, high unemployment and so on and turning things around in a few years. Thanks to Reagan's policies, we had the greatest sustained economic surge in the history of America.

Don't expect the left to get it though Rise. They never will.

So now we have another interventionist pinhead in office during a severe downturn trying the same failed approaches FDR used, and the left expects to have a different outcome. :rolleyes:

You have to keep in mind that the hard left is not interested in creating wealth as Reagan was, but with redistributing it. They measure success by how equal everyone is, even if that means bringing everyone down into the gutter. At least if everyone is in the gutter together, we have "equality", just like in Cuba.

[Montanarchist]

Under Reagan the national debt exploded.

[Limbo]

Under Reagan the national debt exploded.

He increased the size of the national debt by about the same amount as Clinton, and much less than both Bushes.

Don't forget that the cold war was ongoing during Reagan's presidency and he spent a butt load of money building up the military. Trying to keep up caused the collapse of the Soviet Union. Money well spent in my opinion.

[Prometheus]

Under Reagan the national debt exploded.

They are going to pretend they didn't hear that.

[Montanarchist]

He increased the size of the national debt by about the same amount as Clinton, and much less than both Bushes.
Which is bad. An economy can't have substantial growth with that form of accumulation of debt.


Don't forget that the cold war was ongoing during Reagan's presidency and he spent a butt load of money building up the military. Trying to keep up caused the collapse of the Soviet Union. Money well spent in my opinion.
That's not where the money went, Supply Side economics contributed greatly to the creation debt in the financial sector that has led to this current crisis. The more that money is bound by debt, the less credit can circulate. Eventually there's no room for credit what so ever and M1 starts to recede.

His economic policies didn't help the US. So much is evident by now.

[Limbo]

Which is bad. An economy can't have substantial growth with that form of accumulation of debt.

That's not where the money went, Supply Side economics contributed greatly to the creation debt in the financial sector that has led to this current crisis. The more that money is bound by debt, the less credit can circulate. Eventually there's no room for credit what so ever and M1 starts to recede.

His economic policies didn't help the US. So much is evident by now.

During Reagan's presidency, about 3 trillion was spent on building up the military, so saying that had no bearing on the increase in the debt would be a stretch since he increased the debt by about 1.5 trillion and Reagan increased military spending by at least 100+ billion per year for each of the 8 years he was president.

Why don't you explain in more detail how you think "Supply Side economics contributed greatly to the creation debt in the financial sector that has led to this current crisis".

[Rise Up]

I liken the reactions of the Demorats during this recession and the Great Depression to a child hiding a mess. The kid grabs towels, cleans up the fluids, throws away anything possible and buries what he can. But eventually the mess catches up to him and he gets a bigger ass whooping because he tried to hide his mistake.

Point is, if the kid had just said, "Damn, I'm in trouble. Alright, I'll just go tell mom," he wouldn't have gotten an ass whooping as bad as he had for hiding it.

Now, the point behind that explanation is, whenever you try to fix something that's turned into a mess by just covering it up it comes back to you. And what's Obama trying to do and what did FDR do? Obama's throwing MONEY at the problem trying to cover up the mess!!!

Think of it, in American History, can you place a single President's name other than Hoover and FDR on a single DEPRESSION. Not recession, DEPRESSION. And how many Depressions in American history lasted more than 2 years? ONE. The Great Depression. Why? Because in all the other depressions the Government DID NOTHING.

[Montanarchist]

Why don't you explain in more detail how you think "Supply Side economics contributed greatly to the creation debt in the financial sector that has led to this current crisis".

Look at these two charts:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/total-credit-debt-percentage-gdp.jpg
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/MULT_Max_630_378.png
Debt creation in the financial sector left less room for credit, and since the pattern continued especially thanks to Reagan, we suffer from it right now.

Then another problem is of course these charts:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/USTrade1991-2005.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Nettoauslandsverm%C3%B6genUSen.PNG
Reagan attempted to take care of the economy by importing as much as possible. Hence, the massive trade deficit was born and since his ever expanding debt bubble didn't seem to collapse right at the the time he and his followers assumed that it worked fine.

[Limbo]

Look at these two charts:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/photos/data/500/total-credit-debt-percentage-gdp.jpg
http://research.stlouisfed.org/fred2/data/MULT_Max_630_378.png
Debt creation in the financial sector left less room for credit, and since the pattern continued especially thanks to Reagan, we suffer from it right now.


Well the Obamanator is going to add trillions to the debt by "investing" in the core constituencies of the Democratic party through the stimulus package and other spending.

What did Reagan specifically do to cause more debt in your opinion? Volcker was the Fed chair for most of Reagan's presidency, and he was a leftover from the Carter administration. The fed has far more control over interest rates than the president does.



Then another problem is of course these charts:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/2/26/USTrade1991-2005.png
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/80/Nettoauslandsverm%C3%B6genUSen.PNG
Reagan attempted to take care of the economy by importing as much as possible. Hence, the massive trade deficit was born and since his ever expanding debt bubble didn't seem to collapse right at the the time he and his followers assumed that it worked fine.

When Reagan left office, the trade deficit was peanuts compared to what we have today. There are many factors at play here, for example NAFTA in 1994 and the emergence of China as a source of cheap goods. It's a bit disingenuous to blame this on Reagan or "supply side" economics as if there are no other factors.

Are you saying that high taxes help to create wealth? In you opinion, does the government create wealth, or consume it?

[Montanarchist]

First of all, I don't support either Obama or high taxes at all and you know that. I just don't like Reagan either.


What did Reagan specifically do to cause more debt in your opinion? Volcker was the Fed chair for most of Reagan's presidency, and he was a leftover from the Carter administration. The fed has far more control over interest rates than the president does.
It is a question of privatizing profits and socializing risks. It is the debt creation that was allowed thanks to Reagan's alleged "deregulation" that gave banks more freedom at the expense of others to pile up debt in the way they did, that was dangerous.

The FED of course had a part in this since they printed money to represent this growing debt.

When Reagan left office, the trade deficit was peanuts compared to what we have today. There are many factors at play here, for example NAFTA in 1994 and the emergence of China as a source of cheap goods. It's a bit disingenuous to blame this on Reagan or "supply side" economics as if there are no other factors.

Are you saying that high taxes help to create wealth? In you opinion, does the government create wealth, or consume it?
Reagan set the ball in motion, if I may use that expression.

There's certain things to know here about changes that happened in the 70's, the main ones being the peak in oil production that occurred and the drop of the gold standard. Since the US had to make up for this loos in domestic production they started importing Oil to correspond to increasing consumption. As well as lots and lots of other products as time moved on, just like you said, when China emerged as a competitive market.

And this is a fatal flaw in a Nation-Statist economic order. Any nation will do the best it can to secure wealth and prosperity for it's population, even when that's not sustainable.
In the US, consistently rising standard of living has not been justified since the 1970s and it has instead been compensated by credit bubbles and inconsistently high trade deficits.
In an Anarcho-Capitalist economic order, production would just relocate to where it is better to be. The fact that the land area known as Central North America, no longer is the world's economic engine is just what you'd expect and the process would be predictable and gradual and no one would suffer from it.

Trough the economic policies enforced by Reagan (helped by Carter) a bubble would be built up, which when it implodes, it would be fatal for everyone that had based their lives around it, even if it was - as you said - great for people at that specific point in time.

It's obviously a complex subject, and it is hard to get into details without knowing the bigger picture first I believe.

[mshpgr506]

Burrrrpppp!!!