GOD vs TRUTH!! [Archive] - Bullshit.com Forums

MrBirdy

12-07-2006, 08:06 PM

Ok, so lets face it, now adays the most popular religions are christianity and catholisism, right? Both these religions belive in ONE god, but neither bring truth.

Now let me bring up an example, whayt is greek mythology?
Zeus and all of these other gods, why doesnt anyone belive this anymore? Is it becouse the churches had no budget? Hell no!! its becouse many of these things where proven wrong, along with most other out of date religions. "Why is there thunder?" "Becouse zeus gets angry," "why is there death" "becouse that is the way ah puch works." No adays we all know that zeus doesn't make thunder, and that the mayas were wrong too!! so why is there people who believe that our current religions are right?

There are some places that teach this reasoning, such as the acclaimed "christian science" which is nothing more but an oxymoron.

And god is nothing more than pseudo science!! which cannot be proven.

I would like to see your reason people!! Why do you think your religion is right? is it becouse of a false prophet and mesaia? what if i told you go spoke to me in a dream? would you believe me, becouse, i know that i would have atleast one foolish follower.

So lets see your anger and opinions people...

Ausinus

12-07-2006, 10:33 PM

ajk

12-07-2006, 10:47 PM

I absolutely agree! :D :D :D

Religion is obsolete. There is nothing it can do now that secular society cannot do or even exceed. In fact, the only use for religion was for preserving knowledge during the middle ages.

To quote Nietzche

"God is Dead"

You're naive if you think God is Dead, because first off without God none of us would be here, and second without God we wouldn't be able to do the things we do. Whether you realize it or not, God has a hand in what goes on in this world.

Ausinus

12-07-2006, 10:48 PM

Its called a metaphor.

What Nietzche means is that religion has served its purpose, which support the statement above it.

Perhaps you should study philosophy more?

ajk

12-07-2006, 11:13 PM

Its called a metaphor.

What Nietzche means is that religion has served its purpose, which support the statement above it.

Perhaps you should study philosophy more?

Well in any event Nietzche is wrong. Religion will never stop serving it's purpose until the end of time when Our Lord comes down from Heaven. Until then Religion will always be relevant, whether you like it or not.

Ausinus

12-07-2006, 11:17 PM

Nietzche was one of the greatest Nihilists of all time. His arguments are certainly more logical than many theologists.

How is religion relevant? What is its function?

ajk

12-07-2006, 11:21 PM

To keep us in line on a moral level, so that we don't destroy what has been given to us. Obviously, that is failing right now as you can see if you look at the world around you. That doesn't mean it is any less relevant now as it was then however.

Ausinus

12-07-2006, 11:33 PM

To keep us in line on a moral level, so that we don't destroy what has been given to us.

That is the role which the judiciary and the police have today.

Religion is irrelevant to society now. For counseling and advice, we have psychiatrists. For healing, we have doctors. For learning, we have scientists, historians and philosophers.

That doesn't mean it is any less relevant now as it was then however.

Explain why this is the case. You havent answered the question.

Besides, back then societal values were different. This is another reason why religion is irrelevant, as it impedes progress with its chronostatic values.

ajk

12-07-2006, 11:43 PM

That is the role which the judiciary and the police have today.

Religion is irrelevant to society now. For counseling and advice, we have psychiatrists. For healing, we have doctors. For learning, we have scientists, historians and philosophers.

To a certain degree, but not all of God's guidelines are enforced, which is the reason for them being there to start with. To enforce or attempt to enforce what is not enforced on earth presently.

Ausinus

12-07-2006, 11:55 PM

The judiciary hasnt espoused all of god's guidelines because said guidelines are not equitable for all groups in society.

ajk

12-08-2006, 12:01 AM

Yes they are we all come from the same God, so they in reality apply to each and every one of us regardless of what religion they may be now.

Ausinus

12-08-2006, 12:12 AM

Name some of these guidelines that are not law that we should have. Also, state why they are better than the status quo without referring to salvation.

MrBirdy

12-08-2006, 07:06 PM

You're naive if you think God is Dead, because first off without God none of us would be here, and second without God we wouldn't be able to do the things we do. Whether you realize it or not, God has a hand in what goes on in this world.

Who ever says god was ever alive? can you back this with any proof? like, i dont know... a picture of god, or something that is less than hundreds of years old?

Becouse i can back this up:
MY ANCESTORS LOOKED LIKE MONKEYS, atleast to a certain degree, this proof, is found in the human genomes (which you know nothing about) and can be seen throught the formation of our bones.

also, testimonials, and written text do not count as proof, since there is not much credibility to the good book

as related to your disscussion about law, if we followed ALL of the bibles commandements, we might have a better culture, and in the end, world. However.... we would be living in a highly restricted society, much like that of the amish, or a harsh dictatorship.

So, what about those who choose not to believe in god? like me? will i go 6to hell if im wrong? of course not, that is just a lie, i wont go to hell if god is all loving and all powerful, since if he is all loving, he would want to rescue me, and since he is all powerfull he CAN rescue me, hell is a lie to keep people in line, but people like me... and Ausinus are people who seek truth, therfore we have found that religion is flaw, so unless god is a liar or the bible, or those who preach it/ or of it are liars, i am not going to hell.

ajk

12-08-2006, 07:11 PM

So, what about those who choose not to believe in god? like me? will i go 6to hell if im wrong? of course not, that is just a lie, i wont go to hell if god is all loving and all powerful, since if he is all loving, he would want to rescue me, and since he is all powerfull he CAN rescue me, hell is a lie to keep people in line, but people like me... and Ausinus are people who seek truth, therfore we have found that religion is flaw, so unless god is a liar or the bible, or those who preach it/ or of it are liars, i am not going to hell.

Oh Hell is not a lie by any means. You may think God can save you which he can, but only if you ALLOW him to save you by accepting him. By rejecting him, you're refusing his love and by doing that, you're assuring yourself that you won't be with him after you pass.

Now if you didn't have any idea of God or christianity or whatever, and you died then you would more then likely go to Heaven because of Jesus's dying on the cross for us. But if you knowingly reject God and his teachings, you won't.

Incidentally you say unless God is a liar you won't be going to Hell. Well if you were to study the Bible, you'd find that there are numerous mentions of Hell and what's it like.

Ausinus

12-08-2006, 07:28 PM

Oh Hell is not a lie by any means. You may think God can save you which he can, but only if you ALLOW him to save you by accepting him. By rejecting him, you're refusing his love and by doing that, you're assuring yourself that you won't be with him after you pass.

But if god was all loving why WOULD we need to accept it, wouldnt it just love us unconditionally? Incidentally, you preach forgivness, but god only forgives if you believe in him. Isnt that illogical?

Now if you didn't have any idea of God or christianity or whatever, and you died then you would more then likely go to Heaven because of Jesus's dying on the cross for us. But if you knowingly reject God and his teachings, you won't.

But how can one not know about god, since according to you we are his children.

And Jesus existence is still a subject of historical debate.

Incidentally you say unless God is a liar you won't be going to Hell. Well if you were to study the Bible, you'd find that there are numerous mentions of Hell and what's it like.

This statement is in non sequitur. You criticise him for saying unless god is a liar you wouldnt be going to hell. But then you move on to an arguement for the existence of hell.

We KNOW that the bible mentions hell. That does not mean it is true. The bible also mentions a man living inside a whale. We cannot accept it as literary evidence for historical accounts.

MrBirdy

12-08-2006, 07:33 PM

Incidentally you say unless God is a liar you won't be going to Hell. Well if you were to study the Bible, you'd find that there are numerous mentions of Hell and what's it like.

i said without making mentions to the bible...
or to false prophets.

Ausinus

12-08-2006, 07:34 PM

Thank you so much Birdy. :D Its great to have an ally against ignorance.

ajk

12-08-2006, 07:43 PM

But if god was all loving why WOULD we need to accept it, wouldnt it just love us unconditionally? Incidentally, you preach forgivness, but god only forgives if you believe in him. Isnt that illogical?

Actually you are misunderstanding the point. God forgives us all, IF do our best to repent of our sins. If we keep doing it anyway not making any attempt to stop, then why should he forgive us?

And yes he does love us all unconditionally, but he also wants us to love and know him in return. It's like a relationship, you get out what you put in.

But how can one not know about god, since according to you we are his children.

Because some people are born into a family or society that doesn't recognize God, therefore the person wouldn't know any better.

This statement is in non sequitur. You criticise him for saying unless god is a liar you wouldnt be going to hell. But then you move on to an arguement for the existence of hell.

I was refuting his argument that said that if unless God is a liar we aren't going to hell, when the Bible (his word) teaches the opposite that Hell is real, and it is possible to go there. So basically unless he is a liar (which he isn't), people can and do go to Hell.

We KNOW that the bible mentions hell. That does not mean it is true. The bible also mentions a man living inside a whale. We cannot accept it as literary evidence for historical accounts.

Then why can we accept something like a history book? Do we have prove that it is true? Of course not, we weren't there, we don't know. Yet we still accept it. Why shouldn't the Bible be looked at the same way?

Ausinus

12-08-2006, 07:52 PM

Actually you are misunderstanding the point. God forgives us all, IF do our best to repent of our sins. If we keep doing it anyway not making any attempt to stop, then why should he forgive us?

But if he is ALL LOVING, wouldnt he forgive us anyway.

And yes he does love us all unconditionally, but he also wants us to love and know him in return. It's like a relationship, you get out what you put in.

Do you know the meaning of unconditional? It means without condition. Requiring love is a condition.

Because some people are born into a family or society that doesn't recognize God, therefore the person wouldn't know any better.

Not true, some people are born atheists.

I was refuting his argument that said that if unless God is a liar we aren't going to hell, when the Bible (his word) teaches the opposite that Hell is real, and it is possible to go there. So basically unless he is a liar (which he isn't), people can and do go to Hell.

How can the bible be god's, a supposedly omniscient being, word when it is so full of contradictions?

Then why can we accept something like a history book? Do we have prove that it is true? Of course not, we weren't there, we don't know. Yet we still accept it. Why shouldn't the Bible be looked at the same way?

Because the bible is too wrapped up in supernatural events, events which require faith, and events for which the bible is the only account. History books use a variety of primary and secondary accounts to demonstrate something happened. Additionally, we can use forensic evidence to prove that an event happened.

Also, every time we find new information, we can update history books. The bible isnt like that, it is static in information and biased. At least history books attempt to be an objective source of knowledge and usually are.

.

MrBirdy

12-08-2006, 07:57 PM

okay AJK
what if i say this:
"forgive me father for no one taught me right from wrong... this is not my parents fault, as they tried their best, but i need you to show me the way, otherwise, i will continue my path of self destruct, i need you to forgive me... i know not the difference of good and bad, and only you, if you are real will show me thy way..."
Their, now i am forgiven in all sence...
I AM BULLETPROOF!!

Ausinus

12-08-2006, 08:00 PM

Have you noticed Christianity sounds like an abused wife?

"Its for my own good"
"Its my fault"
"He was right to punish me"
"It means he loves me"

Pfft. What rubbish.

MrBirdy

12-08-2006, 08:03 PM

Have you noticed Christianity sounds like an abused wife?

"Its for my own good"
"Its my fault"
"He was right to punish me"
"It means he loves me"

Pfft. What rubbish.

LMFAO you are right!!

ajk

12-08-2006, 08:14 PM

Ausinus

12-08-2006, 08:22 PM

-_-?

Its not the point. The point is that your god is a sadistic, twisted egotist. QED.

ajk

12-08-2006, 08:25 PM

Not true, we've made him out to be that way, when the opposite of that is true.

Ausinus

12-08-2006, 08:40 PM

In the bible

1)God killed more people than Hitler, Stalin and Saddam combined.
2)He cursed the Egyptians with plague to let the Israelites go, and yet after each plague he hardened the heart of Pharaoh to NOT let his people go.
3)He tests people such as Abraham and Job with horrible demands such as Filiocide.
4)God sent his OWN son to die so he could forgive everyone.
5)God destroyed Gommorah even though no sins are recorded of its people.
6)God turned lots wife into salt for turning around.

If thats not sadistic I dont know what is.

MrBirdy

12-09-2006, 12:23 AM

Okay that's all well and good, but the key is to actually believe what you said, not just to say it only to not mean it.

If nobody has taught me right from wrong, then i have no choice but to lie, therfore, since no one taught me NOT yto lie, i am forgiven for lieing....
[form of paradox.]

General Septem

12-09-2006, 08:45 AM

If nobody has taught me right from wrong, then i have no choice but to lie, therfore, since no one taught me NOT yto lie, i am forgiven for lieing....
[form of paradox.]

There's no paradox, because we all have a basic understanding of right and wrong even when we're born. We just learn to ignore it at times.

Ausinus

12-09-2006, 05:14 PM

Ever heard of Tabula Rasa?

Brains_Behind_Operation

12-09-2006, 10:02 PM

Ever heard of Tabula Rasa?

No. Do explain....

Ausinus

12-09-2006, 10:04 PM

Tabula Rasa is latin for Blank Slate. It is the idea, formulated by John Locke, that human babies are born without any knowledge whatsoever.

General Septem

12-09-2006, 10:06 PM

Tabula Rasa is latin for Blank Slate. It is the idea, formulated by John Locke, that human babies are born without any knowledge whatsoever.

Well I say that's bullshit.

General Septem

12-09-2006, 10:09 PM

2)He cursed the Egyptians with plague to let the Israelites go, and yet after each plague he hardened the heart of Pharaoh to NOT let his people go.

Yes, despite numerous warnings, the Pharaoh remained stubborn and arrogant. You can't blame God for that.

5)God destroyed Gommorah even though no sins are recorded of its people.

I think the mass orgies were sufficient.

6)God turned lots wife into salt for turning around.

The expression translated as "looking back" indicates a longing, not simply looking behind you because your mind is irresistably curious as to what a city looks like as it's being burned to the ground by fire raining from the skies. I admit I'd want to see that shit too; that's not looking back. Looking back would be if I started thinking I'd be better off back in the city for whatever reason.

Ausinus

12-09-2006, 10:10 PM

Well how else would you explain it then?

It is the reason people are shaped by their environment and the society they are in. I bet your parents are also christian no?

General Septem

12-09-2006, 10:15 PM

Well how else would you explain it then?

It is the reason people are shaped by their environment and the society they are in. I bet your parents are also christian no?

Humans are still born with a basic understanding of what's right and wrong, or at the very least learn it intuitively. Even if only from a logical standpoint: if someone hits them, and it hurts, they can reason that if they hit someone else it'll hurt them, which is a bad thing because pain hurts.

Ausinus

12-09-2006, 10:26 PM

Humans are still born with a basic understanding of what's right and wrong, or at the very least learn it intuitively. Even if only from a logical standpoint: if someone hits them, and it hurts, they can reason that if they hit someone else it'll hurt them, which is a bad thing because pain hurts.

But, that in itself would be their morals being shaped by their environment.

Morals are shaped by two things - environment and society. The environmental shaping of morals is caused by reasoning. The child would reason that if they were hit and it hurt, then hitting another would hurt them too. The societal shaping of morals comes from parents and other people. The parent can tell a child that santa claus exists, and because the child does not know otherwise, they believe it to be true until they learn otherwise.

Since the womb is a homeostatic environment with no light, the foetus cannot shape morals through either of these two things.

ANarchy12

12-10-2006, 08:02 PM

LISTEN GOD IS BULLSHIT OK WHO CREATED HIM?PICTURE THIS
WHY DO PEOPLE DERSERVE TO DIE EARLY babies?
YOU FUCKin PARENTS LET THE CHILDREN DECIDE ON WHAT THEY WANT TO BELIVEVE IN IM only 14 but i no what im talking about.
MAN MAKES HIMSELF

DARWIN EXPLIANS IT THE JEWs fight the muslims the catholics fight the protestants the catholics fight the muslims and everywhere in blood and guts GOD IS KILLING US UR SO CALLED GOD

Ausinus

12-10-2006, 08:04 PM

General Septem

12-10-2006, 08:05 PM

DAMN STRAIGHT BROTHER!:D
Well you certainly don't seem to care that he's an anarchist.

ANarchy12

12-10-2006, 08:11 PM

I belive that the fucking goverment is corrupt
FUCK THE POLICE.
FUCk THE GOVERMENT
AMERICA NOT SO GReat
We stole land from native americans

General Septem

12-10-2006, 08:16 PM

I belive that the fucking goverment is corrupt
FUCK THE POLICE.
FUCk THE GOVERMENT
AMERICA NOT SO GReat
We stole land from native americans

I'm an anarchist too, but when I said I was an anarchist, Ausinus jumped on me for it.

ANarchy12

12-10-2006, 08:23 PM

i respect wat u beillive in were just debating

but explain how do bellive in god?

General Septem

12-10-2006, 08:24 PM

i respect wat u beillive in were just debating

but explain how do bellive in god?

Neither am I, I was just clearing up my comment towards Ausinus regarding his reaction to you being an anarchist and how it differed from his reaction to me being one. I believe in God because I see God everywhere.

Ausinus

12-10-2006, 08:26 PM

I belive that the fucking goverment is corrupt
FUCK THE POLICE.
FUCk THE GOVERMENT
AMERICA NOT SO GReat
We stole land from native americans

Go back and live in the wilderness then.

ANarchy12

12-10-2006, 08:27 PM

so how plz give pics i see ppl hugging but
what does this hugging represent

General Septem

12-10-2006, 08:29 PM

so how plz give pics i see ppl hugging but
what does this hugging represent

Your eyes see hugging. God is what you see with your heart, the love.

ANarchy12

12-10-2006, 08:34 PM

maybe i will

General Septem

12-10-2006, 08:35 PM

maybe i will

Maybe you'll what?

ANarchy12

12-10-2006, 08:36 PM

im just sayin dont owe them 4 all thiP land

ANarchy12

12-10-2006, 08:37 PM

Maybe you'll what?
live in the wilderness

ANarchy12

12-10-2006, 08:42 PM

,....... do u see the devil yea war death? movie.clockworkorange socomftb2 name.3rd_world

intwowin

12-31-2006, 09:08 AM

ALL I KNOW IS THIS..IF YOUR RIGHT ABOUT GOD BEING FALSE(DEAD) THEN COOL......BUT WHAT IF YOUR WRONG...SO WHAT HURTS TO BELIEVE?
Ok, so lets face it, now adays the most popular religions are christianity and catholisism, right? Both these religions belive in ONE god, but neither bring truth.

Now let me bring up an example, whayt is greek mythology?
Zeus and all of these other gods, why doesnt anyone belive this anymore? Is it becouse the churches had no budget? Hell no!! its becouse many of these things where proven wrong, along with most other out of date religions. "Why is there thunder?" "Becouse zeus gets angry," "why is there death" "becouse that is the way ah puch works." No adays we all know that zeus doesn't make thunder, and that the mayas were wrong too!! so why is there people who believe that our current religions are right?

There are some places that teach this reasoning, such as the acclaimed "christian science" which is nothing more but an oxymoron.

And god is nothing more than pseudo science!! which cannot be proven.

I would like to see your reason people!! Why do you think your religion is right? is it becouse of a false prophet and mesaia? what if i told you go spoke to me in a dream? would you believe me, becouse, i know that i would have atleast one foolish follower.

So lets see your anger and opinions people...

Ausinus

12-31-2006, 10:29 AM

Uh, caps lock mate.

It hurts as it creates divisions within a society upon the basis of orientation, gender and faith.

General Septem

12-31-2006, 01:02 PM

Uh, caps lock mate.

It hurts as it creates divisions within a society upon the basis of orientation, gender and faith.

Around half of my friends are not Catholic, and several of the ones that are aren't devout.

who897

12-31-2006, 02:38 PM

Around half of my friends are not Catholic, and several of the ones that are aren't devout.

Looks like some of your friends are heading in the right direction.

General Septem

12-31-2006, 02:40 PM

Looks like some of your friends are heading in the right direction.

I agree; several of my not-so devout Catholic friends are starting to go to Church more.

who897

12-31-2006, 02:46 PM

I agree; several of my not-so devout Catholic friends are starting to go to Church more.

No silly, those are the ones heading down the road with the do not enter sign one way. Those are the lost ones.

General Septem

12-31-2006, 02:48 PM

No silly, those are the ones heading down the road with the do not enter sign one way. Those are the lost ones.

I guess that just depends on where you're heading. :D

Mary met seven farmers on the way to St. Ives. Each farmer had ten cows, each cow had twenty chickens, each chicken had a hundred chicks. How many were going to St. Ives? XD

who897

12-31-2006, 02:49 PM

I'd really love to head to Chilli's..the restuarants here suck big testical hair.

General Septem

12-31-2006, 02:50 PM

I'd really love to head to Chilli's..the restuarants here suck big testical hair.

Have you tried raw seal yet? :D

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 04:12 PM

General Septem

12-31-2006, 04:18 PM

But Septem, you have to realize that your religion teaches that salvation comes through acceptence that Jesus is the Son of God, not from being a good person, Hence Hitler can be saved and Gandhi cannot

It is by faith and love that we are saved, but the greatest of these is love. I'm not one to judge but if anything Gandhi is more likely to go to Heaven than Hitler. Jesus said somewhere that if you live a life of love you cannot go wrong. Our love keeps us together, and our faith reminds us that we are all children of God, something Hitler apparently did not believe.

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 04:22 PM

It is by faith and love that we are saved, but the greatest of these is love. I'm not one to judge but if anything Gandhi is more likely to go to Heaven than Hitler. Jesus said somewhere that if you live a life of love you cannot go wrong. Our love keeps us together, and our faith reminds us that we are all children of God, something Hitler apparently did not believe.

While I will agree that love and goodwill are the only things that can really save the world, and I WILL make the judgement that Gandhi was a better person than Hitler, because HE WAS, your faith does not allow a place in heaven for non-christians, that is anyone who does not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. PERIOD! The morals are fantastically reversed from what a more utopian society would have.

General Septem

12-31-2006, 04:24 PM

While I will agree that love and goodwill are the only things that can really save the world, and I WILL make the judgement that Gandhi was a better person than Hitler, because HE WAS, your faith does not allow a place in heaven for non-christians, that is anyone who does not accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior. PERIOD! The morals are fantastically reversed from what a more utopian society would have.

That does not mean non-Christians cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. We all fall short in one way or another, and God understands this. That's why a sin requires not only serious matter but full knowledge and consent to be mortal.

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 04:26 PM

That does not mean non-Christians cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. We all fall short in one way or another, and God understands this. That's why a sin requires not only serious matter but full knowledge and consent to be mortal.

So answer this with a YES or with a NO...

If Gandhi refuses in this life and the next to accept Jesus' atonement, and refuses to accept Jesus as Savior and son of God, and INSISTS that Krishna is God....can he go to the heaven YOU BELIEVE IN?

General Septem

12-31-2006, 04:40 PM

So answer this with a YES or with a NO...

If Gandhi refuses in this life and the next to accept Jesus' atonement, and refuses to accept Jesus as Savior and son of God, and INSISTS that Krishna is God....can he go to the heaven YOU BELIEVE IN?

There is no way to possibly answer this question, as nobody knows who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. It is ultimately our choice whether we go to Heaven or not, and nobody on this Earth knows what that choice will be.

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 04:45 PM

There is no way to possibly answer this question, as nobody knows who goes to Heaven and who doesn't. It is ultimately our choice whether we go to Heaven or not, and nobody on this Earth knows what that choice will be.

Ok so you aren't gonna answer then? ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF YOUR CHURCH could a person in those circumstances make it into heaven...I know you just don't want to say NO, even though that is the answer. most fitting to your doctrine.

General Septem

12-31-2006, 04:47 PM

Ok so you aren't gonna answer then? ACCORDING TO THE TEACHINGS OF YOUR CHURCH could a person in those circumstances make it into heaven...I know you just don't want to say NO, even though that is the answer. most fitting to your doctrine.

I'm not answering yes or no, because I know neither to be correct, nor can anyone else.

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 05:00 PM

I'm not answering yes or no, because I know neither to be correct, nor can anyone else.

So you don't trust your church's teachings on the matter of Heaven and Hell?...I thought that was supposed to be the bread and butter of catholicism!

What else about your religion are you willing to admit that you aren't sure about?

General Septem

12-31-2006, 05:02 PM

So you don't trust your church's teachings on the matter of Heaven and Hell?...I thought that was supposed to be the bread and butter of catholicism!

What else about your religion are you willing to admit that you aren't sure about?

I know what I have to do to get to Heaven. I know that I choose Heaven and will choose Heaven the day I die. I cannot say who is there and who will go there. Nobody knows that, and this is a belief supported by the Church and any knowledgeable Catholic.

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 07:16 PM

I know what I have to do to get to Heaven. I know that I choose Heaven and will choose Heaven the day I die. I cannot say who is there and who will go there. Nobody knows that, and this is a belief supported by the Church and any knowledgeable Catholic.

So of the things that YOU MUST do to get into heaven, is ACCPETING JESUS included? That is IF (i know this case doesn't apply to you right now, but let's just pretend for a sec) Could YOU yourself expect to be saved if YOU yourself refused to believe in JC?

Stop skirting the issue

General Septem

12-31-2006, 07:39 PM

So of the things that YOU MUST do to get into heaven, is ACCPETING JESUS included? That is IF (i know this case doesn't apply to you right now, but let's just pretend for a sec) Could YOU yourself expect to be saved if YOU yourself refused to believe in JC?

Stop skirting the issue

If I knowingly and willingly refused to accept Jesus's salvation, then probably not. But they key word is knowingly and willingly. But nobody except God can ever know the circumstances behind what anyone believes. Nobody can know who is going where except what they choose for themselves.

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 07:55 PM

If I knowingly and willingly refused to accept Jesus's salvation, then probably not. But they key word is knowingly and willingly. But nobody except God can ever know the circumstances behind what anyone believes. Nobody can know who is going where except what they choose for themselves.

So yes then....you do believe that you MUST accept YOUR GOD to be accepted into heaven...interesting that you won't admit it.

General Septem

12-31-2006, 07:59 PM

So yes then....you do believe that you MUST accept YOUR GOD to be accepted into heaven...interesting that you won't admit it.

Won't admit what? I never said you didn't have to believe in God to get into Heaven. I'm just saying, it is impossible (with the exception of the saints) to know who goes where. I don't know where Gandhi is, I don't know where Hitler is, and I don't know where Saddam is. A mortal sin requires not only for it to be a serious sin but also requires full knowledge and full consent.

Stop being an irritant.

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 08:10 PM

Won't admit what? I never said you didn't have to believe in God to get into Heaven.

Actually you've said it quite a few times, but I'm not gonna dig through old posts, so here is the most recent time you have said it

That does not mean non-Christians cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven.

General Septem

12-31-2006, 08:18 PM

Actually you've said it quite a few times, but I'm not gonna dig through old posts, so here is the most recent time you have said it

You have to be a Christian to get into Heaven, but that doesn't mean non-Christians can't get into Heaven. Like I've said many, many times, in order for a sin to be mortal, it must be serious, the one committing it must fully know what he is doing, and must be acting under full consent. For example, leaving the Church is a sin, but if you leave the Church unaware that Christ is the center of the Church, you can still receive salvation.

In short, we know what's right and what's wrong, but that doesn't mean someone who does wrong cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven, since we all do what is wrong. The only unforgivable sin is the one not repented of, but if one does not know he has sinned, how can he be held responsible? I cannot know what is in your heart or anyone else's.

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 08:35 PM

You have to be a Christian to get into Heaven, but that doesn't mean non-Christians can't get into Heaven.

DOES THIS STATEMENT SOMEHOW MAKE SENSE TO YOU???

you HAVE TO BE a christian to get in, but NON CHRISTIANS can get in...That sounds like the kind of backward speak i would expect from a theist

General Septem

12-31-2006, 08:37 PM

DOES THIS STATEMENT SOMEHOW MAKE SENSE TO YOU???

you HAVE TO BE a christian to get in, but NON CHRISTIANS can get in...That sounds like the kind of backward speak i would expect from a theist

Then read the whole motherfucking post.

Ausinus

12-31-2006, 08:39 PM

What he means is, that only those who willingly reject jesus go to hell. Which is bullshit because it is a pretext to saying every non christian is just denying it.

General Septem

12-31-2006, 08:43 PM

What he means is, that only those who willingly reject jesus go to hell. Which is bullshit because it is a pretext to saying every non christian is just denying it.

No, what I'm saying is some things are wrong, but that doesn't mean the people who do wrong are all going to hell. We all do wrong. Nobody can know who is in anyone else's heart, so nobody can know who is going where.

That's all I'm saying, is that nobody can possibly know who is going where.

Ausinus

12-31-2006, 08:43 PM

Well how come you profess to know? Hypocrite.

ajk

12-31-2006, 08:50 PM

He doesn't know, nor does he claim to. He may believe a certain ideal or requirement is needed to get into Heaven, but that does not mean that others outside of that realm cannot make it. It's part of why Jesus died for the sins of all.

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 08:54 PM

ajk

12-31-2006, 08:56 PM

When did this happen?

theicidal maniac

12-31-2006, 09:02 PM

What he means is, that only those who willingly reject jesus go to hell. Which is bullshit because it is a pretext to saying every non christian is just denying it.

No...what he is doing is trying to avoid a trap...he knows that no matter what answer he had given it is completely full of wholes. He's really backed into a corner and grasping here...I mean, I know what he is trying to say but he can't even word it correctly because it's not a valid point...it's double-talk

Ausinus

12-31-2006, 09:05 PM

When did this happen?

The Nineteenth "Ecumenical" Council of Trent in 1545 CE. The council decreed that salvation could only be acheived through the catholic church.

General Septem

12-31-2006, 11:42 PM

The Nineteenth "Ecumenical" Council of Trent in 1545 CE. The council decreed that salvation could only be acheived through the catholic church.

CE is Cosmic Era, asshole, and unless you're talking about a period of time in which everyone had plastic hair, identical faces, and piloted large robots, I suggest you get with the program and start using the calender the other 99% of the country uses. It's not like you're changing the fact that the calender is still Christocentric, because the start date is still based on and roughly coincides with the birth of Jesus.

That aside, I am telling you, while we have defined being a part of the Church as right and not being a part of the Church as wrong, that doesn't mean those outside the Church cannot receive salvation. God doesn't ask anything unreasonable of us for salvation; if it's unreasonable to expect someone to be a part of the Church, for whatever reason, God understands this. If it's unreasonable to expect someone to have been aware that something he was doing was wrong, then God understands this. Besides the fact that we have no way of knowing what happens at the moment of death.

Ausinus

01-01-2007, 12:00 AM

CE is Cosmic Era, asshole, and unless you're talking about a period of time in which everyone had plastic hair, identical faces, and piloted large robots, I suggest you get with the program and start using the calender the other 99% of the country uses. It's not like you're changing the fact that the calender is still Christocentric, because the start date is still based on and roughly coincides with the birth of Jesus.

CE is common era you idiot. And I would prefer we went with a different calendar, but its not likely to change anytime soon. Perhaps we should base it on the year of the fall of rome, which is the rough end of ancient society.

That aside, I am telling you, while we have defined being a part of the Church as right and not being a part of the Church as wrong, that doesn't mean those outside the Church cannot receive salvation. God doesn't ask anything unreasonable of us for salvation; if it's unreasonable to expect someone to be a part of the Church, for whatever reason, God understands this. If it's unreasonable to expect someone to have been aware that something he was doing was wrong, then God understands this. Besides the fact that we have no way of knowing what happens at the moment of death.

I was simply demonstrating the point that the church has issued a statement saying salvation is unacheivable outside the church.

General Septem

01-01-2007, 12:30 AM

CE is common era you idiot. And I would prefer we went with a different calendar, but its not likely to change anytime soon. Perhaps we should base it on the year of the fall of rome, which is the rough end of ancient society.

Not a Gundam fan I take it? And yes, I know what the hell CE stands for. Well with any luck, the rise of the American empire will take place very shortly, and then we can change the calender to reflect that. Sounds cheery, doesn't it?

I was simply demonstrating the point that the church has issued a statement saying salvation is unacheivable outside the church.

It's not something we believe in today, and what you're describing is not even explicitly said (although it's implied) in the letter you quoted.

Ausinus

01-01-2007, 12:42 AM

Not a Gundam fan I take it? And yes, I know what the hell CE stands for. Well with any luck, the rise of the American empire will take place very shortly, and then we can change the calender to reflect that. Sounds cheery, doesn't it?

No, I think the american empire is almost spent. Asia is becoming the centre of the world now. With any luck Japan will supplant America.

It's not something we believe in today, and what you're describing is not even explicitly said (although it's implied) in the letter you quoted.

Letter? Its an entire ecumenical council, you know the ones that define christianity as it is?

And why dont you follow it today? Because its old and outdated?

General Septem

01-01-2007, 11:41 AM

And why dont you follow it today? Because its old and outdated?

First of all, it was ambiguous about the ability of non-Christians entering Heaven to begin with.

And second of all, we have grown in wisdom since then.

Third, the relationship between Catholicism, other Christians, and non-Christians is entirely different than it was back then.

Fourth, the 1500s AD was back when the Catholic Church doubled as a government, so much of their views back then were highly political and not just matters of faith.

Fifth, while rejecting the Church is a sin, in order for a sin to be mortal, and we have always held this to be the case, in order for a sin to be mortal, it requires grave matter, full knowledge, and full consent. If one dies willingly unrepentant of mortal sin, he cannot enter the kingdom of Heaven. If some nomad who didn't even know what the hell Christianity was died of a camel falling on top of him, God's not going to hold it against him that he wasn't a Christian. How should he have known?

With the exception of canonized saints, nobody has ever rightly judged who is in Heaven and who is in Hell, nor should they.

theicidal maniac

01-01-2007, 03:40 PM

CE is Cosmic Era, asshole!

Actually, C.E. is COMMON ERA stupidass!
B.C.E. is "Before the Common Era."
You get stupider each day, and now it's 2007!

we have defined being a part of the Church as right and not being a part of the Church as wrong, that doesn't mean those outside the Church cannot receive salvation. God doesn't ask anything unreasonable of us for salvation; if it's unreasonable to expect someone to be a part of the Church, for whatever reason, God understands this. If it's unreasonable to expect someone to have been aware that something he was doing was wrong, then God understands this. Besides the fact that we have no way of knowing what happens at the moment of death.

Yes but the salvation you can receive REQUIRES you to accept Jesus's atonement, bottom line, stop trying to tiptoe around it.

ajk

01-01-2007, 07:47 PM

Is that really that much to ask though? I mean the guy died for the sins of all. The least we can do is give something back in return.

theicidal maniac

01-01-2007, 07:53 PM

Is that really that much to ask though? I mean the guy died for the sins of all. The least we can do is give something back in return.

How arrogant that you think anyone ever died willingly with your soul in mind, as if you yourself are that important. And what's this "give back" business...how do you GIVE BACK to a dead man?

And it IS a lot to ask the whole world to follow YOUR belief, simply cuz you say so.

ajk

01-01-2007, 08:13 PM

How arrogant that you think anyone ever died willingly with your soul in mind, as if you yourself are that important. And what's this "give back" business...how do you GIVE BACK to a dead man?

How surprising, you twist my words around yet again. I said he died for ALL, not just you or me, but ALL. As for giving back, I meant give back to God by loving him as he loves us.

And it IS a lot to ask the whole world to follow YOUR belief, simply cuz you say so.

It's only as hard as you make it out to be. Obviously you have a hardened heart on this and refuse to budge, so it's going to be harder for you then it might be for others.

twisted_screams

01-01-2007, 08:14 PM

ajk

01-01-2007, 08:16 PM

The only thing that comes from instinct is crying sucking and going to the bathroom thats it every thing else is learned as a process period end of story.

Don't forget eating. :)

theicidal maniac

01-01-2007, 08:53 PM

It's only as hard as you make it out to be. Obviously you have a hardened heart on this and refuse to budge, so it's going to be harder for you then it might be for others.

Oh geez, I guess you're right...we should ALL conform to YOUR beliefs, I never saw it that way before....C'MON EVERYBODY, LET'S START LOVIN' US SOME JESUS!!

Not Really

theicidal maniac

01-01-2007, 08:55 PM

just an fyi Children are not born knowing right from wrong the only way they learn it is by watching the people they are around and this is proven by the fact that if a son sees his mother beat by a man constantly he will feel like it is normal and do it to his other half. The only thing that comes from instinct is crying sucking and going to the bathroom thats it every thing else is learned as a process period end of story.

Is that your opinion as a Doctor? Language is Instinctual...Not ENGLISH or any specific language, but the underlying forms of language in general...they're instinctual. All linguists and psychologists agree.

ajk

01-01-2007, 09:05 PM

Oh geez, I guess you're right...we should ALL conform to YOUR beliefs, I never saw it that way before....C'MON EVERYBODY, LET'S START LOVIN' US SOME JESUS!!

Not Really

One day you will regret rejecting God, and realize that I was only trying to help you here. I only hope you realize that before it's too late.

MrBirdy

01-01-2007, 11:01 PM

One day you will regret rejecting God, and realize that I was only trying to help you here. I only hope you realize that before it's too late.

What makes you think that god is real for starters, and what if that jesus zombie was just a crazy ass man!! think about it, i can say i had a dream, and a prophecy, i can creat my own religion, just by saying that i had a dream, and in that dream jesus spoke to me!!

You AJK, and your conservative buddies might fall for it, and those who do, will be my bitches till i die, and they will believe that they are my "servants of peace til eternity" you die, and thats it, ok no one has died and come back...
Unless your a freakin zombie, i dont believe in zombies by the way....

*NOTE: notice how the conservatives are always wrong? Slavin' black people, Treating women like crap, all closed minded, no respect for anyone who is not like them, NAZI was conservative, So was al qaeda, and remember, the conservatives (republicans) game money to saddam YEARS before september 11

General Septem

01-01-2007, 11:01 PM

Actually, C.E. is COMMON ERA stupidass!
B.C.E. is "Before the Common Era."
You get stupider each day, and now it's 2007!

Another non-Gundam fan I take it. :rolleyes:

At the very least you could get the sarcasm.

Yes but the salvation you can receive REQUIRES you to accept Jesus's atonement, bottom line, stop trying to tiptoe around it.

Are you drunk, deaf, stupid, or blind?