Abortions should be illegal!!!!!!!!!!!!

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

Abortion is murder. :mad: I can debate upon this for days, so if you have any unresearched comments think again before you post. Abortions should be illegal because they kill an unborn child and can also kill the mother through the process.

[nfosdick]

Women have a right to make that choice themselves.

[pedro dos2]

are you kidding? abortions arent killing anything, the ferilized egg isnt alive, it's a clump of cells w/ no brain. plus, abortions help stem cell research, which could lead to thousands of new cures

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

At 30 days a heart beat is recordable, and at 45 days brain waves are recordable. How is that killing nothing? It's a human being being murdered. It has a brain and a heartbeat. How is it that when you kill a pregnant women you are able to get charged with a double murder? Also, scientist can use the naval cord of a newborn baby to use in stem cell research.

[Mr hanky's Henchman]

If "At 30 days a heart beat is recordable, and at 45 days brain waves are recordable." then can we logically conclude that destroying the cluster of cells prior to the presence of a heartbeat is not killing a human being? What evidence, other than the potential to become a fully formed human being, can be presented to say that a fertilized egg, or even the blastocyst is actually a person?

I have given it much thought and I can't see how we can say that small group of cells is a human. During the first few days there is no head, no brain, it's just a clump of cells. This distinction has become even more important with the discovery that stem cells have the potential to treat disease. While abortion just to create the cells seems foolish, we shouldn't waste the opportunity to learn from these cells since they're just going to be destroyed anyway. The blood from the umbilical cord does contain stem cells, however, they've differentiated to such a stage that scientists cannot currently use them to recreate all of the different cell types. They are not the same as the embryonic stem cells.

At the opposite end of the spectrum (8 mos and 29 days) abortion should be completely illegal, since we obviously have a human being.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

Well, it takes a least a month before a women know offically if she is pregnant. As I said before, at 30 days a heartbeat is recordable. Also at ten weeks the baby is moving and has prefectly formed hands and feet and also is able to curl things in its hand if you place it in the middle of the palm. After the second tri-mester (6 months- Partial Birth Abortion) it is illegal to have an abortion. George W. Bush pasted that law in 2004. After the 6 month the baby is able to live outside the womb (not saying it should, but it is able to). The stem cell research I don't know about so I can't comment upon that.

[da holly shit]

abortion is just sum bull shit if u dnt want kids der r condoms n other stuff stopping sperms so if u didnt care 2 find a condom its ur own fuckin fault (n da dad)

abortion should be legal in extreme case n i da woman gt raped

[Evito]

'da holly shit'

Yu are a good guy, a fine guy with nice evaluations and a decent moral comparing to many other guys in your age!

Evito

[Evito]

Probably you have no own opinion at all as though 'da holly shit' has. He has a clew. Why don´t think about how to avoid making a baby at the first place if you don´t actually want one.
Evito
Well, it takes a least a month before a women know offically if she is pregnant. As I said before, at 30 days a heartbeat is recordable. Also at ten weeks the baby is moving and has prefectly formed hands and feet and also is able to curl things in its hand if you place it in the middle of the palm. After the second tri-mester (6 months- Partial Birth Abortion) it is illegal to have an abortion. George W. Bush pasted that law in 2004. After the 6 month the baby is able to live outside the womb (not saying it should, but it is able to). The stem cell research I don't know about so I can't comment upon that.

[Evito]

You are far out in the blue Mr hanky´s Henchman! Obviously you are full of science bull shit pretending that just because you know everything about stam cells and when in figures the foster becomes 'a human being' as you relate to when it has a head a a heart. What about a soul? Talk about ignorance, talk about total lack of respect for the beginning of a life.
If "At 30 days a heart beat is recordable, and at 45 days brain waves are recordable." then can we logically conclude that destroying the cluster of cells prior to the presence of a heartbeat is not killing a human being? What evidence, other than the potential to become a fully formed human being, can be presented to say that a fertilized egg, or even the blastocyst is actually a person?

I have given it much thought and I can't see how we can say that small group of cells is a human. During the first few days there is no head, no brain, it's just a clump of cells. This distinction has become even more important with the discovery that stem cells have the potential to treat disease. While abortion just to create the cells seems foolish, we shouldn't waste the opportunity to learn from these cells since they're just going to be destroyed anyway. The blood from the umbilical cord does contain stem cells, however, they've differentiated to such a stage that scientists cannot currently use them to recreate all of the different cell types. They are not the same as the embryonic stem cells.

At the opposite end of the spectrum (8 mos and 29 days) abortion should be completely illegal, since we obviously have a human being.

[Evito]

Dear Mr or Miss 'I am normal'
Killing is not the answer. If you ever are thinking about killing the mother who killed her foster you are as bad as the mother! Really, yes.
Abortion is murder. :mad: I can debate upon this for days, so if you have any unresearched comments think again before you post. Abortions should be illegal because they kill an unborn child and can also kill the mother through the process.

[Evito]

Sorry, 'I am normal' I missunderstood you. Of course abortion could kill the mother too. I am turning against more aggressive and unreasonable people.
Abortion is murder. :mad: I can debate upon this for days, so if you have any unresearched comments think again before you post. Abortions should be illegal because they kill an unborn child and can also kill the mother through the process.

[C-Dawg]

At 30 days a heart beat is recordable, and at 45 days brain waves are recordable. How is that killing nothing? It's a human being being murdered. It has a brain and a heartbeat. How is it that when you kill a pregnant women you are able to get charged with a double murder? Also, scientist can use the naval cord of a newborn baby to use in stem cell research.
heres the thing dude how is it possible that we can kill animals adn other things of that nature for pure enjoyment and have it be legal. so while taking that this is in a sense murder but as nfosdick said these woman have a choice and that is what mankind and the country of america is all about. And as for you pedro dos2 you are an ass sir. you say that it is a clump of cells and yes that is true but you are also in the ultimate sense a clump of cells so what you are saying is that you are insignificant and could be killed without penalty. So i disagree about it not being wrong but agree that it should be the womans choice so there.

[da holly shit]

heres the thing dude how is it possible that we can kill animals adn other things of that nature for pure enjoyment and have it be legal. so while taking that this is in a sense murder but as nfosdick said these woman have a choice and that is what mankind and the country of america is all about. And as for you pedro dos2 you are an ass sir. you say that it is a clump of cells and yes that is true but you are also in the ultimate sense a clump of cells so what you are saying is that you are insignificant and could be killed without penalty. So i disagree about it not being wrong but agree that it should be the womans choice so there.

Ok women ave a choice but dere often forseed into 2 it, im 14 now and if my mum killed me dat would be murder and she would recive an penalty so y does women have da rite 2 kill der own babies

n with partial birth in sum cases da babie could live outside da womb so dat is really murder

[Zzzzz]

I don't know what is better abortion or unwanted child. If couple doesn't want a kid, they gonna get rid of him anyway: put in social services or something. We just gonna have another junky criminal living on food stamps.
Somebody wrote really good thing on this forum:"Woman has a choice" That's true. If you make it illegal, it wouldn't stop certain person of doing it. It's just gonna be more unsafe. For the health of women too.

[first and last post here]

It should always be up to the woman to decide what she wants to do with her body. I know you will say "its not her body its a person" it dont matter its in HER BODY. i dont care how much you poeple say about it haveing a heartbeat and all oh well life goes on and shit happends. in the end no one can, or should be able to tell her what to do. People say "well theres always adoption" true and some woman have this done but some dont and for thoese woman that dont again it was their choice not your's not the governments and it never will be as long as this is a free country.
End of story.

[Josh]

I support abortion but only as a byproduct of my support for killing babies.

[Josh]

Abortion is murder. :mad: I can debate upon this for days, so if you have any unresearched comments think again before you post. Abortions should be illegal because they kill an unborn child and can also kill the mother through the process.

more women have died from giving birth than from having an abortion

[itisi]

the big question on abortion is, when does life start?
...
...
...
menstruation is murder!!!!

[itisi]

I don't know what is better abortion or unwanted child. If couple doesn't want a kid, they gonna get rid of him anyway: put in social services or something. We just gonna have another junky criminal living on food stamps.
Somebody wrote really good thing on this forum:"Woman has a choice" That's true. If you make it illegal, it wouldn't stop certain person of doing it. It's just gonna be more unsafe. For the health of women too.

Another junior member that at least gets it. The junky criminal stuff is a bit crude though. People usually want abortion for a reason.

The whole point is, people tend to 'get busy' and don't always take precautions. That's nature working. You can moralize all you want, but people do and the're is hardly anything you can do. Which is why some religious institutions p155 me off because they are against anti-conception. You cannot decouple these discussions. Endorsing anti-conception would reduce the need/desire for abortion. The idea that sex should only be 'used' to create offspring is a bit outdated in my humble opinion. For those who do think so, I think you might be outnumbered.

[LARK]

Should abortion be decided by Political Pressure or should it be the individuals choice? What if you were to receive a phone call from the Hospital informing you that your daughter has been sexually assaulted and a month later she informs you that she is pregnant!
Abortion is an individuals right and should remain that way, why should anyone be forced to go through 9 months of torture knowing that she was too have her attackers child.That is a nightmare that nobody should endure just because society states that the unborn child has rights, nobody stops to think what these poor woman are going through.
If they dont want that baby who are you to say that they cant opt for abortion, pull your head out of the clouds and put youself in their shoes, if you still feel so strongly about this then go and visit a hospital and tell that poor girl lying in that bed that she has to have the baby and she will have to see the results off that attack for the rest of her life!!!

[first and last post here]

LARK i could'nt have said it better my self.

[normlman]

listen:
i'm up late and bored, also a fresh new member...so anyone feel free to tell me to eat shit.

...i believe in rat poison, i always agreed with Dr. Kevorkian, and i bet we all wish that Hitler could have been aborted. i've lost three dearly loved Grandparents within a three month timespan to the painful witnessing of old age, all the while i was serving my country in Iraq with the USMC. i opted not to fly back to the states because i had other 'fish to fry' . i also feel that the night follows the day, as does cause and effect...vice versa. we must accept death for what it is. a reacuring incident in an endless life. only then will we truly be able to live our lives...
a woman lives her life to choose as she will, pay the piper and keep my zipper satisfied. hahaha.

[sucks to be you]

I think the legality of the issue is more important than whether or not abortions should be provided. Now its a bit of a contradiction, but I think that abortions should be illegal, but yet i still think mothers should have the right to have one. How can both be possible one might ask? My point is this: the legal aspect of the matter is that while I think the parents should have the right to choose, I think they should also be held acountable for their actions. I've seen too many peolple just brush it off as oh well i'll just have another abortion. Its these people that make the issue so heated. I feel there are many cases where the right desision is to not deliver the child to term but to allow abortions to be conducted without legal ramifications is totally unacceptable. I also think that the father should be given equal say in the choice. If the mother doesn't think she should have to spend the next nine months carrying a child she doesn't want, well guess what, don't have sex dumbass. If you want to go around taking that risk, then follow through with the responsibility. If there are single fathers out there willing to take the full responsibility for the child when its born, then have the respect to take the nine months to give that man the rest of his life to devote to that child. Don't be selfish. Abortion should never be an 'easy way out' situation.

[UCantArgueWithMe]

What about the women who have been rapped? What about the women who made the choice not to use birth control or condoms? Sometimes you have to realize that in some instances that abortion is quite okay. Let the mother choose to keep or abort your child. Don't get in a big discussion and tell somone what the f**K to do. Keep your focus on the issues that are affecting you and not someone that you know nothing about.

" Republicans make me sick... "

[this_is_bullshit]

Should abortion be decided by Political Pressure or should it be the individuals choice? What if you were to receive a phone call from the Hospital informing you that your daughter has been sexually assaulted and a month later she informs you that she is pregnant!
Abortion is an individuals right and should remain that way, why should anyone be forced to go through 9 months of torture knowing that she was too have her attackers child.That is a nightmare that nobody should endure just because society states that the unborn child has rights, nobody stops to think what these poor woman are going through.
If they dont want that baby who are you to say that they cant opt for abortion, pull your head out of the clouds and put youself in their shoes, if you still feel so strongly about this then go and visit a hospital and tell that poor girl lying in that bed that she has to have the baby and she will have to see the results off that attack for the rest of her life!!!

There is always putting the child up for adoption.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

What about the women who have been rapped? What about the women who made the choice not to use birth control or condoms? Sometimes you have to realize that in some instances that abortion is quite okay. Let the mother choose to keep or abort your child. Don't get in a big discussion and tell somone what the f**K to do. Keep your focus on the issues that are affecting you and not someone that you know nothing about.

" Republicans make me sick... "

If you know someone who has been rapped and got pregnant then that's rare. Only 1% of women who get abortions are rapped. And for the women who don't use birth control or condoms then they need to pay the the piper. Abortion is never okay. I mean NEVER. Abortion is killing a human being no matter if it is just a few months old. Why when you kill a pregnant women you get charged for a double murder if that is not a human? Enough said!

[sucks to be you]

I'm not going to get into a debate about how bad rape is and all that, but I would like to make one personal comment. I have lived with someone who was a rape child, his mother loved him very much and had the strength of will to never treat him any diffrent from his sister. Sadly she's not will us anymore but he is going strong and proudly a parent now himself. Now if she had chosen abortion because she didn't want to be reminded of a single no matter how terrible experience, I would have been denied a friend in life, and another child would have been denied a life of his own.

[LARK]

There is always putting the child up for adoption.
Yes adoption is an option ,but most children that are given up for adoption will sooner or later want to try and contact their Biological Parents.
If that child contacts his/her Mother what will she say?
Sorry but you are the result of a sexual assault and i didnt want to be reminded of that!

Come on and get real what will that do to the child once they know?

Yes the mother could lie and tell a false story to prevent the hurt, but it would only bring up old demons to haunt the mother.

[beelzebub]

Get better information people! That bullshit that the conservatives, Bush & his cronies put out about Partial Birth Abortions IS SMOKE AND MIRRORS. Think about it PLEASE! If you want an abortion why wait for birth? Your skin streching the pain the expense WHY? The reason that people had partial birth abortions is because there was something VERY VERY WRONG with the baby (ex: hydrocephally) and the baby wouldn't live. This HYPE was put out so IGNORANT Americans would rally against abortion. AND IT WORKED! Another shining example of how stupid and misinformed Americans love to control each other.

Look at abortion on a broad scale: Arguments on both sides are good. Since we cannot come up with a difinitive answer that pleases both let the individual DECIDE for herself. Its freedom of choice.

[sucks to be you]

Couldn't say I even knew of or care for that fact whether or not Bush or whoever put out comments about that beelzebub. I know my own posts have nothing to do with reaction to such hype so I would defend that probably most everyone else thats been conversing here are feeling the same. And if you think that someone who has had 5 or 6 abortions already cause all she likes to do is get drunk and pick up guys at bars to the point that doctors have told her that she may never be able to have a healthy child again (not to mention the way she treats the 2 she kept) should still have the choice to keep fucking and chucking then well I guess being better informed isn't exactly always the superior position.

[beelzebub]

"...Bush or whoever put out comments about that Beelzebub."
Well it’s not just Bush it is the people he represents.

"most everyone else that’s been conversing here are feeling the same."
I was really answering some of the earlier postings not the most recent. It’s a shame that one cannot post for individual postings.

"And if you think that someone who has had 5 or 6 abortions already cause ..bla bla bla.. have a healthy child again (not to mention the way she treats the 2 she kept) should still have the choice to keep fucking and chucking"
Of course she should have the right. WE ALL should have the right to live the way we CHOOSE to live. I never condoned such a lifestyle but to be honest, I think that this example is a PRIME reason why it’s better for people to have that choice. Who wants a mother like that? (Perhaps we could ask her current 2 children).

..."then well I guess being better informed isn't exactly always the superior position."
Hummm.... so are you saying knowledge isn’t power?

[againstYOU]

I'm a 19 year old college student and yes, I had an abortion at 18.

Any of you that say abortion should be illegal, obviously havent walked a day in my shoes.
My boyfreind and I, of 6 months at the time, had unprotected sex, and yes we paid the price for it. He was 19, I was 18, two young kids living on their own trying to make it the best they can. I had worked my ass off to get into college and was working as hard as I could there, looking forward to the future I was creating for myself. Then I got pregnant.

What is a girl to do? Risk losing her family, her chances of an amazing life, to have a child at 18? I wasnt ready. My 110 pound body couldnt even have bared the stress of carrying a child for the next 9 months. So I made a difficult decision, to have an abortion. And I do not for one second regret it.

Looking back, yes, it was hard. I cried, I thought of what could be. Sometimes when watching moms with their kids it can be upsetting, and I do at times think about what I could have had. But I know in my heart, I did the right thing, for me, my unborn child, and my boyfriend.

If I had kept the baby, my education would have been over. I would have had to stop going to school, to work, and so would my boyfriend. Two perfectly able and hardworking kids, their lives cut short by having a child. A child they we could never even give the life that it deserves, while at the same time, ruining their own.

To all those girls who keep their babies. You are strong. You are beautiful and amazing women. To all the other girls that didnt, I understand. Life is about choices, thats what we do, everyday we wake up, and we make a choice. I chose to wait, to have kids "someday". And please, dont be ingorant and say "oh you cant have a child now", becuase that is simply untrue, do research before making such a pitiful statement.

I believe what I did was right for me. And if anyone thinks they can take away a girls right to make decisions about her life. You are fucked up.

Would you rather two educated, hardworking people, making a future for themselves, Or 3 more on welfare.

[againstYOU]

"pro-lifers who support the death penalty"

[sucks to be you]

"...Bush or whoever put out comments about that Beelzebub."
Well it’s not just Bush it is the people he represents.

"most everyone else that’s been conversing here are feeling the same."
I was really answering some of the earlier postings not the most recent. It’s a shame that one cannot post for individual postings.

"And if you think that someone who has had 5 or 6 abortions already cause ..bla bla bla.. have a healthy child again (not to mention the way she treats the 2 she kept) should still have the choice to keep fucking and chucking"
Of course she should have the right. WE ALL should have the right to live the way we CHOOSE to live. I never condoned such a lifestyle but to be honest, I think that this example is a PRIME reason why it’s better for people to have that choice. Who wants a mother like that? (Perhaps we could ask her current 2 children).

..."then well I guess being better informed isn't exactly always the superior position."
Hummm.... so are you saying knowledge isn’t power?

To respond to particular posts you can always quote them then it becomes clear where your response is originating from. But then again you did just fine with the old fasion cut and paste method with me. Its a really really tough debate. I personally feel that alot of people should have their rights stripped away clean but of course I also understand the myriad of troubles that would lead to when any rights begin to be taken away, where would it end. I do believe that knowledge is power but I don't belive that the more researched opinion is always going to be better. This is not an attack on you by any means but does sidetrack me into responding to againstYOU: I for one totally understand, it is a hard decision and yes it certainly can lead to promising futures, perhaps if legality isn't the solution, then maybe we should look to the medical profession to take a stronger stand. Doctors should certainly do a thourough screening before agreeing to perform an abortion. For situations such as yourself then it would be an open and closed case. But with my prior example I would have loked to have seen more doctors take a stand and refuse, which I do believe is their right. Sure it wouldn't solve the problem cause there will always be doctors out there who will do anything for the paycheque, but it might make those less thoughtful think a little bit harder about what it is they are doing to themselves as well as other by dragging sincerely needing people down by putting a big shining red beacon on abortion in general. Again I'm not claiming to have perfect solutions to the issue but I'd hope to think that I am leaning in a logical as well as compasionate direction.

[Bull!]

It is plain and simple, abortion should be illegal unless the person has been raped an therefore should have the choice to abort because she did not choose to get pregnant or if going full term will kill the mother. Now, if you get pregnant from just casual sex or from whoring around then that is your own damn fault and you should deal with the consequences because you know what can result if you don't do what it takes to prevent conception from occuring, so if you don't want to get pregnant then either keep your legs shut or use what is called PROTECTION..... Example pill, patch, iud implant, norplant, nuevo ring, depo shot, condoms, spermicidle foam, pull out even with condom being used, diaphram, womens condom, abstinence, tubes tied, man clipped, etc....... there are many ways to prevent so there should only be two reasons for abortion and no others, point blank. If you still get pregnant from using the above preventions, minus abstinence, then you still should have the baby because there is only one that is guaranteed to work so there again you know the risk you take. There is always adoption to, if the mother is unfit to care for the child. Thats what cps is suppose to monitor. Can anyone think of any other reason?????? In my opinion there is none.

[againstYOU]

BULL!- you didnt even state a reason.

"abortion should be illegal blah blah blah blah"

get pregnant, then take a stance.

[freakazoid]

Does anyone here wish that they would have been aborted? Personally I'm glad I wasn't. Ahhhh hmmmmm.......could be wrong about this.

[chainar1]

wow...most of you em effers have wayy too much jesus. read a book now and then or even dare to put aside your delusional, one-sided, and, most importantly, callow predispositions for just a moment...maybe then you would not be so inclined to continually spit out dead rhetoric in the face of convoluted issues. look at the world and stop preaching bullshit!! or just stick with jesus...it's up to you.

[freakazoid]

Have you done this? Report back to us when you do and what the results are. We await your return.

[General Septem]

Actually, the fetus is scientifically proven to be alive. Here are some articles on the matter:

http://omegaplus.blogspot.com/2005/02/plain-and-simple-abortion-is-murder.html
http://omegaplus.blogspot.com/2005/03/pro-choicers-make-about-as-much-sense.html
http://omegaplus.blogspot.com/2005/05/pro-life-is-not-just-christian.html
http://omegaplus.blogspot.com/2005/05/hitler-would-be-proud.html
http://omegaplus.blogspot.com/2005/08/new-bs-pro-choice-argument.html
http://omegaplus.blogspot.com/2005/11/abortion-is-constitutional.html

[chainar1]

Freakazoid – you're teenager, right? little man who thinks he knows world oh so well because he can reiterate his parents ideology with precision? it shows as your rebuttal is outright juvenile and, moreover, disturbingly contradictory when considering the context. you don't have much to say so let us just leave it at that...shall we? or would you like to continue making remarks that do nothing more than reveal your inability to deliberate and respond in a logical and tabular manner?

General Septem – i thank you so kindly for finally disclosing this overwhelmingly important yet, till now, lost evidence that “scientifically” proves that abortion is wrong. thank you once again on behalf of all humans...where would the world be without people like you. BTW: i once read that you were an a-hole...I read it on the back of a cracker jack box so it has to be true. I mean, that is scientific information....right?

[General Septem]

General Septem – i thank you so kindly for finally disclosing this overwhelmingly important yet, till now, lost evidence that “scientifically” proves that abortion is wrong. thank you once again on behalf of all humans...where would the world be without people like you. BTW: i once read that you were an a-hole...I read it on the back of a cracker jack box so it has to be true. I mean, that is scientific information....right?
I didn't say science proved that abortion is wrong, I said that science proved that an unborn baby is alive. In fact, nobody that's actually into the issue doubts that an unborn baby is alive. The official arguments in the court rooms is whether or not abortion is constitutional. All this bullshit about the unborn baby not being a life is just that - bullshit, made up by the liberals and pro-choicers to get the people's support in the matter. Nobody ever doubted that the unborn baby was alive until relatively recently - we're talking within the last century or so, and people were performing abortions long before then.

About me being an asshole, I needn't remind you of the old saying about those who live in glass houses, do I?

[freakazoid]

Freakazoid – you're teenager, right? little man who thinks he knows world oh so well because he can reiterate his parents ideology with precision? it shows as your rebuttal is outright juvenile and, moreover, disturbingly contradictory when considering the context. you don't have much to say so let us just leave it at that...shall we? or would you like to continue making remarks that do nothing more than reveal your inability to deliberate and respond in a logical and tabular manner?



A rather hostile comment, chainar1, would you not agree? Indeed, I beg a moment of time my good man to address your veritable cornucopia of replies to my prose. Given that my posts were short and to the point. I believe your response to be lacking proper insight into the obvious that shall shortly be yours if you employ adequate faith. Let us examine my comments together, shall we?

Regarding my first comment of...

"Does anyone here wish that they would have been aborted? Personally I'm glad I wasn't. Ahhhh hmmmmm.......could be wrong about this."

We find a mixture of comic relief and a call to look within embodied herein. Consider, chainar1, the question as to whether or not one would have desired to be aborted oneself. The point is obvious and the wisdom, well now, could not have been clearer...we see the old adage of "do unto others as you would have them do to oneself." Ah yes, the wisdom of the ancient masters ad infinitum! The execution of this short comment, well, let us judge flawless! But, we continue in our journey of discovery...

Regarding my second comment in this most worthy of threads...


"Have you done this? Report back to us when you do and what the results are. We await your return."


What we encounter is a witty look into the nature of man. As is the nature of most human beings, we tend to believe that our ways of thinking, our past history of "learning" to be superior to that of our fellow man in which we disagree. One is reminded of the old and oft used strategy of "if you can't defeat a foe’s wisdom, denigrate his pedigree." It's an old story to be sure.

There you have it, chainar1, I have offered a degree of sophistication that I believe will satisfy your passion and desire. Should there be any other service I can offer you, any other counsel I can provide for you, indeed, any advice in seeking a lusty full bodied wine to enjoy parallel to a fine cigar, please feel free to make your lofty request known.

At your service my dimwitted chap! Good day,

TTTT...freakozoid.

Post Script:
OH, on the subject of my age dear colleague. That would be 48. Sufficient for your needs, I assume?

And regards to your comment of "you're teenager, right?" Please be so kind as to employ an attempt at proper English. The preferred nomenclature would be "you're a teenager, right?" Please note the use of the indefinite article of "a" which you entirely failed to render.

QED.

Ahh, youth!

[freakazoid]

RE: "evidence that “scientifically” proves that abortion is wrong"

"...and yet you seek proof that love exists. But we know that it does even defying such proof..."

- Wisdom of The Old Ones

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

For every Pro-choice person, you all might want to look up the 8 different methods of abortions and then reflect on what you think. There are two websites that I know you can look on to find this info. One is prochoice.com and the other one is prolife.com. Please look at these websites and the pictures on prolife.com and see why many many people find abortions immoral and wrong. They also beleive that killing someone is just wrong is not justifiable in many ways. Life begins at conception and is lasting until death.

[beelzebub]

1) I personally feel that alot of people should have their rights stripped away clean .....
2) ....then maybe we should look to the medical profession to take a stronger stand. Doctors should certainly do a thourough screening before agreeing to perform an abortion. ....
3) ....make those less thoughtful think a little bit harder about what it is they are doing to themselves as well as other by dragging sincerely needing people down by putting a big shining red beacon on abortion in general.
4.... I am leaning in a logical as well as compasionate direction.


1) Prisons?
2) While the doctors do the screening the woman enters her last few months and can’t get an abortion? Doctors aren't psychologists and who are we to set protocol for someone’s decisions?
3) Look.... if you decided to make a choice then you have to live with that choice. This is life in general. Many people have regrets while others feel blessed with every decision in their life. Some people commit suicide or murder because of children and families that they were not ready to have, why belabor this?
4) Do you think that you are compassionate when you say that "people should have their rights stripped away clean"? If so please don’t tread on me!

[freakazoid]

For every Pro-choice person, you all might want to look up the 8 different methods of abortions and then reflect on what you think. There are two websites that I know you can look on to find this info. One is prochoice.com and the other one is prolife.com. Please look at these websites and the pictures on prolife.com and see why many many people find abortions immoral and wrong. They also beleive that killing someone is just wrong is not justifiable in many ways. Life begins at conception and is lasting until death.

You make good points. Both web sites are disturbing. Hopefully the killing will end some day.

[General Septem]

For every Pro-choice person, you all might want to look up the 8 different methods of abortions and then reflect on what you think. There are two websites that I know you can look on to find this info. One is prochoice.com and the other one is prolife.com. Please look at these websites and the pictures on prolife.com and see why many many people find abortions immoral and wrong. They also beleive that killing someone is just wrong is not justifiable in many ways. Life begins at conception and is lasting until death.
http://www.lifesite.net/abortiontypes/

[freakazoid]

1) Prisons?
2) While the doctors do the screening the woman enters her last few months and can’t get an abortion? Doctors aren't psychologists and who are we to set protocol for someone’s decisions?
3) Look.... if you decided to make a choice then you have to live with that choice. This is life in general. Many people have regrets while others feel blessed with every decision in their life. Some people commit suicide or murder because of children and families that they were not ready to have, why belabor this?
4) Do you think that you are compassionate when you say that "people should have their rights stripped away clean"? If so please don’t tread on me!

Are you talking about a womens right concerning her body?

[beelzebub]

Please look at these websites and the pictures on prolife.com and see why many many people find abortions immoral and wrong. They also beleive that killing someone is just wrong is not justifiable in many ways. Life begins at conception and is lasting until death.

It’s so nice when others decide for others what is Immoral & Wrong! I am sure that you would have been one of those rallying against interracial marriage or a woman's right to vote or lifting of prohibition, or witches during the inquisition, or ... do we have to go on?

Honestly if you don’t like it don’t choose it! STOP MAKING CHOICES AND JUDGING OTHERS WHO DO NOT THINK LIKE YOU DO!

I have seen slaughter houses that make those pictures look like a haircut. Keep that in mind as you munch into your chicken salad or hotdog!

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

I am truly pissed at people who call themselves doctors that take an oath of doing no harm to a human dead or alive that preform abortions. How can you truly call yourself a doctor if you are killing a human being? Right now I am glad that the court case Roe vs Wade is being reviewed and might be overturned. I am also happy that partial birth abortions were outlawed back in December of 2004. That is one of the few things that I agree that George W. Bush has done.

[beelzebub]

Are you talking about a womens right concerning her body?

Huuuuu... yea.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

It’s so nice when others decide for others what is Immoral & Wrong! I am sure that you would have been one of those rallying against interracial marriage or a woman's right to vote or lifting of prohibition, or witches during the inquisition, or ... do we have to go on?

Honestly if you don’t like it don’t choose it! STOP MAKING CHOICES AND JUDGING OTHERS WHO DO NOT THINK LIKE YOU DO!

I have seen slaughter houses that make those pictures look like a haircut. Keep that in mind as you munch into your chicken salad or hotdog!
For your information interracial marriages don't bother me and women do have the rights to vote and ect. I have the right as everyone else to voice my opinion weather you agree with it or not. Also about the slaughter house I agree. But you must look as it as these babies are our next generation and we are just killing them off like that don't matter.

[beelzebub]

doctors that take an oath of doing no harm to a human dead or alive that perform abortions.

HA HA HA HA HA - you are so ignorant! Dead or alive. So I guess coroners are out of the loop! Ha ha ha

But seriously Fine feel that way. Once Roe v Wade is overturned look for the revolution. Those people who voted for it will be voted OUT and a new STRONGER bill will take its place. Try to get some reality!

[General Septem]

Regarding the woman's "right over her own body", keep in mind also that the baby inside her is not her own body. Your right to throw a punch ends where your opponent's nose begins.

[beelzebub]

1) For your information interracial marriages don't bother me and women do have the rights to vote and ect.
2) I have the right as everyone else to voice my opinion weather you agree with it or not.
3) Also about the slaughter house I agree. But you must look as it as these babies are our next generation and we are just killing them off like that don't matter.


1) YOU JUST DONT GET IT! When you decide for others like you want to for this issue YOU ARE JUST LIKE THOSE who decided on issues that I rose before. Abortion is seen differently by different people. So much so that there is a law that protects the right for people to make THEIR OWN CHOICE. Not have people like you making it for them!

2) I never said otherwise

3) So let’s just worry about the humans and turn a blind eye to everything else. Hypocrite.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

HA HA HA HA HA - you are so ignorant! Dead or alive. So I guess coroners are out of the loop! Ha ha ha

But seriously Fine feel that way. Once Roe v Wade is overturned look for the revolution. Those people who voted for it will be voted OUT and a new STRONGER bill will take its place. Try to get some reality!
I was includeing conorers you fucking retard. They can't do any harm to the body that is not warranted you idiot. You just don't understand what it is like for a women after she has had an abortion, what is does to the mind and the body. Abortion is not warranted in anyway. AND YOU HAVE THE NERVE TO CALL ME IGNORANT. YOU ARE SO FUCKING RETARDED!!!!!

[General Septem]

1) YOU JUST DONT GET IT! When you decide for others like you want to for this issue YOU ARE JUST LIKE THOSE who decided on issues that I rose before. Abortion is seen differently by different people. So much so that there is a law that protects the right for people to make THEIR OWN CHOICE. Not have people like you making it for them!
Thank you for your deep insight. I have considered your philosophy and have decided to come over to your house and kill you. As you say, it's my choice. Murder is seen differently by different people and I don't have a problem with it, so I am going to kill you.

[beelzebub]

Regarding the woman's "right over her own body", keep in mind also that the baby inside her is not her own body. Your right to throw a punch ends where your opponent's nose begins.

Why do you say that? Because thats your PERSPECIVE. We have sex cells that have different combinations of genes eventhough they come from us. Crossing over occurs in mitotic cells which bring about new combinations of genes. Cancer brings about another living thing all together. Should these things not be considered our body? Should we protect their diginity and allow them to live?

While the fetus is DEPENDENT on the mother and cannot live without it I consider it to be apart of HER BODY!

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

How is it when a person kills a pregnant women s/he is charged with a double murder if that is not a human?

[beelzebub]

and have decided to come over to your house and kill you. As you say, it's my choice. Murder is seen differently by different people and I don't have a problem with it, so I am going to kill you.

Your assumption is that ABORTION IS MURDER. I dont see it that way. I see it as if you were to remove a growth from your finger.

Since I am independet It would be considered murder.

[General Septem]

Why do you say that? Because thats your PERSPECIVE. We have sex cells that have different combinations of genes eventhough they come from us. Crossing over occurs in mitotic cells which bring about new combinations of genes. Cancer brings about another living thing all together. Should these things not be considered our body? Should we protect their diginity and allow them to live?

While the fetus is DEPENDENT on the mother and cannot live without it I consider it to be apart of HER BODY!
What's your point? Nothing you just said even applies.

Even cancer cells have the same DNA as the person infected with it. But unlike cancer, sex cells, whatever, an unborn baby's DNA is different right from the minute the egg is fertilized. Once the sperm enters the ovum, its chromosomes unite with the chromosomes in the egg and instantly produce a unique DNA signature. Nice try, though.

[beelzebub]

How is it when a person kills a pregnant women s/he is charged with a double murder is that is not a human?

That is because it WAS MADE ILLEGAL by our lovely President to try to undermine OUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

Same thing is happening with benifits for pergnant mothers.

[General Septem]

Your assumption is that ABORTION IS MURDER. I dont see it that way. I see it as if you were to remove a growth from your finger.

Since I am independet It would be considered murder.
So abortion can be seen differently by different people, but murder can't? Is that because you aggree with one and not the other? That's hypocritical.

[beelzebub]

What's your point? Nothing you just said even applies.

Even cancer cells have the same DNA as the person infected with it. But unlike cancer, sex cells, whatever, an unborn baby's DNA is different right from the minute the egg is fertilized. Once the sperm enters the ovum, its chromosomes unite with the chromosomes in the egg and instantly produce a unique DNA signature. Nice try, though.


FYI - CANCER cells, while similar can mutate beoynd the host. To the point that they share as much as brother or cousin. Still good!

SO since 1/2 the fetus has the chomosomes of the woman its still her body. She can take that half out and let the other stay.

What about my other point?

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

That is because it WAS MADE ILLEGAL by our lovely President to try to undermine OUR RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

Same thing is happening with benifits for pergnant mothers.

At least he is trying to improve upon this issue, as long as there are women they are going to be benifits givent to pregnant women. DUMBASS!

[General Septem]

FYI - CANCER cells, while similar can mutate beoynd the host. To the point that they share as much as brother or cousin. Still good!

SO since 1/2 the fetus has the chomosomes of the woman its still her body. She can take that half out and let the other stay.

What about my other point?
Cancer cells are entirely different altogether. How many people do you know who grew from cancer cells?

As for the chromosomes, it doesn't work that way; the baby has a unique set of chromosomes that were formed from the combination of the two parent's sets, which does not mean he or she has half of the mother's and half of the fathers.

[beelzebub]

So abortion can be seen differently by different people, but murder can't? Is that because you aggree with one and not the other? That's hypocritical.

ONCE AGAIN ... I DONT CONSIDER ABORTION MURDER! I consider it killing. But whats wrong with a little killing? Hell I chopped many a chickens head off and loved that juicy fried finger licking good.... ha

I dont consider it to be fully human because 1) It cannot survive on its own 2) It lives inside another being 3) It has not formed enough

not hypocritical

[General Septem]

ONCE AGAIN ... I DONT CONSIDER ABORTION MURDER! I consider it killing. But whats wrong with a little killing? Hell I chopped many a chickens head off and loved that juicy fried finger licking good.... ha

I dont consider it to be fully human because 1) It cannot survive on its own 2) It lives inside another being 3) It has not formed enough

not hypocritical
Are you pulling a Bill Clinton on me here? He was widely hated for dodging simple questions, too.

[beelzebub]

Cancer cells are entirely different altogether. How many people do you know who grew from cancer cells?

As for the chromosomes, it doesn't work that way; the baby has a unique set of chromosomes that were formed from the combination of the two parent's sets, which does not mean he or she has half of the mother's and half of the fathers.

You obviously dont know Biology. I teach it.
A fetus gets a tad more than 1/2 its DNA from its mother and less than 1/2 from its father. (The extra DNA comes from the mitochondria)

While it is true that the chromosomes mix HER DNA is STILL THERE.

[beelzebub]

Are you pulling a Bill Clinton on me here? He was widely hated for dodging simple questions, too.

And he was widely loved as well! 1/2 & 1/2 so was he wrong or right. WE GET TO DECIDE so lets let everyone have that right!

What was the question?

Ha ha ha

[General Septem]

You obviously dont know Biology. I teach it.
A fetus gets a tad more than 1/2 its DNA from its mother and less than 1/2 from its father. (The extra DNA comes from the mitochondria)

While it is true that the chromosomes mix HER DNA is STILL THERE.
I know biology quite well, actually. Just because half of one's DNA is the same as their mother's doesn't mean that their DNA as a whole IS their mother. This is why I'm me and not my mother (obviously). My DNA as a whole is 100% different from my mother's as a whole. If a baby was part of it's mother, than all mothers would have at some point in their lives had two sets of arms, legs, two hearts, and half of the time a penis as well.

If the fact that half of an unborn baby's DNA makes it part of its mother is true, what happens at birth that all of a sudden mandates that the mother can't kill the baby after birth? Its DNA is still the same.

[beelzebub]

At least he is trying to improve upon this issue, as long as there are women they are going to be benifits givent to pregnant women. DUMBASS!

A bit testy are we?
Ignorance is not an insult in my book. Stupidity is.
I wasnt calling you names.

[General Septem]

And he was widely loved as well! 1/2 & 1/2 so was he wrong or right. WE GET TO DECIDE so lets let everyone have that right!

What was the question?

Ha ha ha
The question was:

You said that abortion is seen differently by different people. I said that by that train of thought, murder can then be seen differently by different people as well. It has nothing to do with abortion being murder, they're simply two separate issues. But if one issue can be seen two different ways, than so can the other. And if murder can be seen two different ways, why shouldn't I be able to kill you? It's my choice what I want to believe, and I choose to believe that murder is acceptable. I could apply larceny, rape, arson, and a whole slew of other things to this list as well.

[beelzebub]

I know biology quite well, actually. Just because half of one's DNA is the same as their mother's doesn't mean that their DNA as a whole IS their mother. This is why I'm me and not my mother (obviously). My DNA as a whole is 100% different from my mother's as a whole. If a baby was part of it's mother, than all mothers would have at some point in their lives had two sets of arms, legs, two hearts, and half of the time a penis as well.

If the fact that half of an unborn baby's DNA makes it part of its mother is true, what happens at birth that all of a sudden mandates that the mother can't kill the baby after birth? Its DNA is still the same.

Ok biology. YOU HAVE AND EXACT COPY OF 1/2 YOUR MOTHERS GENES and the same is true of your fathers. The reason that you look different is because of "CROSSING OVER" which shuffles the genes when sex cells are made. Therefore you could get different alleles from mom & dad. Depending on dominance and recessivness you will display different characteristics.
This mixing of the genes DOES NOT affect the integrity of the DNA. The genes are still intact otherwise we could spontaneously loos the ability to make certian proteins that are necessary as the genes are mixed like oxytosin.
Good one actually ha ha

[beelzebub]

The question was:
why shouldn't I be able to kill you? It's my choice what I want to believe, and I choose to believe that murder is acceptable. I could apply larceny, rape, arson, and a whole slew of other things to this list as well.

YES but it IS NOT MINE and I can voice that opposition, I can prevent it, I can fight back, I can kill you instead.

and please spare me the bullc**p about babies doing the same. Its a lame argument.

[General Septem]

Ok biology. YOU HAVE AND EXACT COPY OF 1/2 YOUR MOTHERS GENES and the same is true of your fathers. The reason that you look different is because of "CROSSING OVER" which shuffles the genes when sex cells are made. Therefore you could get different alleles from mom & dad. Depending on dominance and recessivness you will display different characteristics.
This mixing of the genes DOES NOT affect the integrity of the DNA. The genes are still intact otherwise we could spontaneously loos the ability to make certian proteins that are necessary as the genes are mixed like oxytosin.
Good one actually ha ha
What's your point?

None of that applies to what I said, because it's still MY DNA and not my mother's. Even if half of it is my mother's, it's not my mother's. If half of it's my dad's, why can't he make half of the decision? And answer my other question about what happens that's so fucking magical at birth that all of a sudden declares me as a life and not just some growth in my mother's womb. Why can't my mother still kill me if the DNA is still the same?

[General Septem]

YES but it IS NOT MINE and I can voice that opposition, I can prevent it, I can fight back, I can kill you instead.
And if you fail at preventing it, why should I go to jail?

[beelzebub]

What's your point?
None of that applies to what I said, because it's still MY DNA and not my mother's. Even if half of it is my mother's, it's not my mother's. If half of it's my dad's, why can't he make half of the decision? And answer my other question about what happens that's so fucking magical at birth that all of a sudden declares me as a life and not just some growth in my mother's womb. Why can't my mother still kill me if the DNA is still the same?

"MY DNA" you know this but you didn't when you were in the womb. Dependent on your mother, unconcious and not really human. A growth of tissue. Should we then say the same of a water baby that will be borne dead? Should we then excise a parasite? It DEFINATLY has its own DNA. It is DEFINATLY unwanted.

In any event I am going to bed. Nice chatting with you. I think you and I have a point. We both feverntly believe in what we do. Why not allow me to have my belief without you enforcing yours on me. I dont see it the same way you do. What should yours be forced on others?

[freakazoid]

Huuuuu... yea.

And the rights [to live] of the unborn, the yet to be born women...what of those?

[beelzebub]

And if you fail at preventing it, why should I go to jail?

It is againt the law to kill another person. Abortion is not. SO WHAT DO YOU WANT TO REVERSE THAT LAW but NOT THE OTHER?

[beelzebub]

And the rights [to live] of the unborn, the yet to be born women...what of those?

Hell I guess every time a woman goes on her period she should be put in jail for homicide! That WAS a potential human. For that matter!!!! Awww hell!!! I should be arrested and charged with murder for whacking off! Hell thats a million+ for every time times once or twice a week since I was a teenager. I will be in prison for centuries!

[General Septem]

"MY DNA" you know this but you didn't when you were in the womb. Dependent on your mother, unconcious and not really human. A growth of tissue. Should we then say the same of a water baby that will be borne dead? Should we then excise a parasite? It DEFINATLY has its own DNA. It is DEFINATLY unwanted.
Parasites are not human, so they don't count. I don't need to know it's my DNA to be entitled to my own life. And dependency does not make one human or not. If it did, we'd all be candidates for abortion since we need a specific temperature range, oxygen, food, water, and so on.

Let's change the focus for a minute. You claim that I can't prove that an unborn baby is human, but you really can't prove it isn't either. So all things equal, there's a 50% chance that an unborn baby is human and a 50% chance that it isn't. And if the unborn baby is in fact human, then all of a sudden you've killed millions. But hey, at least you can console yourself with the fact that killing millions is justifiable when you don't know they're human, right? Oh, wait.

Hitler didn't believe non-Aryans to be human, either.

[General Septem]

It is againt the law to kill another person. Abortion is not. SO WHAT DO YOU WANT TO REVERSE THAT LAW but NOT THE OTHER?
Oh, so just because it's against the law, all of a sudden we don't have the right to choose? Since fucking when is the Constitution the final say as to what's ethical and moral? What if Bush made abortion illegal altogether, would you then drop it?

So again I say, if abortion can be seen differently, why can't murder?

[General Septem]

Hell I guess every time a woman goes on her period she should be put in jail for homicide! That WAS a potential human. For that matter!!!! Awww hell!!! I should be arrested and charged with murder for whacking off! Hell thats a million+ for every time times once or twice a week since I was a teenager. I will be in prison for centuries!
No, because sperm and ovum are not human beings. A human being isn't created until the sperm unites with the ovum. As for the whacking off, well that's another issue.

[freakazoid]

Hell I guess every time a woman goes on her period she should be put in jail for homicide! That WAS a potential human. For that matter!!!! Awww hell!!! I should be arrested and charged with murder for whacking off! Hell thats a million+ for every time times once or twice a week since I was a teenager. I will be in prison for centuries!

Wrong; an egg is NOT a "potential human." Neither, for that matter is a sperm cell. An egg or a sperm cell will not grow into a baby until they get together. OK, Sex education time kiddies...

An egg cell PLUS a sperm cell = "potential human." When the little tiny sperm cell jumps inside that little egg cell...volla! A "potential human!" This is called "sex." Isn't nature a beautiful thing? For further reading, see...

http://www.howstuffworks.com/

Search under "making babies" or "Sex101."

Bottom line...if the little sperm cell and that little egg cell stay on oppisite sides of the room...no "potential human."

[beelzebub]

Wrong; an egg is NOT a "potential human." Neither, for that matter is a sperm cell. An egg or a sperm cell will not grow into a baby until they get together. OK, Sex education time kiddies...

....ARROGANT BLA BLA BLA SHIT....

Bottom line...if the little sperm cell and that little egg cell stay on oppisite sides of the room...no "potential human."

AN EGG IS TOO A POTENTIAL HUMAN SAME AS SPREM! POTENTIAL BECAUSE IT COULD MAKE A HUMAN. THE SAME IS TRUE OF THE FETUS.

The problem here is our definitions on what we accept as potential or not.

I was responding to you saying something about ....."the yet to be born women" ... in other words eggs that havent become women. Try to remember your own words! Cheeze and crackers!

[beelzebub]

As for the whacking off, well that's another issue.

I guess its been a long time for ya? ha ha

[General Septem]

AN EGG IS TOO A POTENTIAL HUMAN SAME AS SPREM! POTENTIAL BECAUSE IT COULD MAKE A HUMAN. THE SAME IS TRUE OF THE FETUS.

The problem here is our definitions on what we accept as potential or not.

I was responding to you saying something about ....."the yet to be born women" ... in other words eggs that havent become women. Try to remember your own words! Cheeze and crackers!
No. An egg left by itself won't do jack, nor will a sperm. However, every fetus, and I do mean every fetus, barring complications, will grow into a human being (and, one could argue, already is a human being).

Just so you know, I've heard every argument for abortion that there is, and none of them hold water. They're all just bullshit spread by pro-choicers such as yourself; none of them are true and none of them justify abortion.

As for the whacking issue, I've been fap-free since May 20, 2005 :D

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

"MY DNA" you know this but you didn't when you were in the womb. Dependent on your mother, unconcious and not really human. A growth of tissue. Should we then say the same of a water baby that will be borne dead? Should we then excise a parasite? It DEFINATLY has its own DNA. It is DEFINATLY unwanted.

In any event I am going to bed. Nice chatting with you. I think you and I have a point. We both feverntly believe in what we do. Why not allow me to have my belief without you enforcing yours on me. I dont see it the same way you do. What should yours be forced on others?

By 45 days the baby has a recordable heart beat and brain waves. That means that it is alive. Also a baby can live outside the womb at 7 months. And by the 2 month the baby is alive and moving. And is also alert. So IT IS ALIVE!!!

[beelzebub]

By 45 days the baby has a recordable heart beat and brain waves. That means that it is alive. Also a baby can live outside the womb at 7 months. And by the 2 month the baby is alive and moving. And is also alert. So IT IS ALIVE!!!

YOU are obviously the stupid one in this argument! I NEVER SAID THAT A FETUS WAS NOT ALIVE you IDIOT. I SAID THAT I DO NOT CONSIDER IT A FULLY FORMED HUMAN.

[beelzebub]

No. An egg left by itself won't do jack, nor will a sperm. However, every fetus, and I do mean every fetus, barring complications, will grow into a human being (and, one could argue, already is a human being).

Just so you know, I've heard every argument for abortion that there is, and none of them hold water. They're all just bullshit spread by pro-choicers such as yourself; none of them are true and none of them justify abortion.

As for the whacking issue, I've been fap-free since May 20, 2005 :D


I guess I have heard them all too from Holeyer THAN THOU ProCoicers like yourself. It turns my stomach that there are still people in this world that don’t have enough going on in their life that they feel the need to make choices for others. What is sad is that people like yourself don’t realize that YOU want to CONTROL OTHERS. Just like Cesar wanted to control x-tians and fed them to the lions.

I am so happy that you have stopped jerking off. It pleases me to no end

OK I am being too serious now. Sorry If I offended I just get riled sometimes.

[freakazoid]

"pro-lifers who support the death penalty"

Maybe we support the death penalty because vicious killers who deserve it are just slightly different than innocent babies who have done absolutely nothing to anyone? Hmmmmm, perhaps that might just be one reason. You think? Possibly? ...

Maybe for you this could be the beginning of "food for thought and grounds for further research."

[freakazoid]

Parasites are not human, so they don't count. I don't need to know it's my DNA to be entitled to my own life. And dependency does not make one human or not. If it did, we'd all be candidates for abortion since we need a specific temperature range, oxygen, food, water, and so on.

Let's change the focus for a minute. You claim that I can't prove that an unborn baby is human, but you really can't prove it isn't either. So all things equal, there's a 50% chance that an unborn baby is human and a 50% chance that it isn't. And if the unborn baby is in fact human, then all of a sudden you've killed millions. But hey, at least you can console yourself with the fact that killing millions is justifiable when you don't know they're human, right? Oh, wait.

Hitler didn't believe non-Aryans to be human, either.

RE: "Let's change the focus for a minute. You claim that I can't prove that an unborn baby is human, but you really can't prove it isn't either."

RIGHT ON!! This is a real problem for abortionists. The inability to prove that an unborn child is not human. Just when does one become human? Better to give this unborn LIFE the BENEFIT of the doubt and preserve life. Not kill it for convenience sake as are the vast majority of abortions...convenience killing.

[freakazoid]

AN EGG IS TOO A POTENTIAL HUMAN SAME AS SPREM! POTENTIAL BECAUSE IT COULD MAKE A HUMAN. THE SAME IS TRUE OF THE FETUS.

The problem here is our definitions on what we accept as potential or not.

I was responding to you saying something about ....."the yet to be born women" ... in other words eggs that havent become women. Try to remember your own words! Cheeze and crackers!


Surely you jest. Let's see a sperm cell or an egg cell develop into a baby UN-JOINED with one another. I deeply and seriously doubt that any doctor, biologist, or any other competent person in such fields would except that a sperm cell or an egg cell constitute viable human life until joined. Are we going to call the molecules that make up sperm cells human life, potential or other wise? Are we going to call the atoms that make up the molecules human life, potential or other wise? Are we going to call the sub-atomic particles human life, potential or other wise? Etc. This is a ridiculous statement. It is very clear that human life begins at conception. This is called "sex101." Even if you were to call these physical parts mentioned above "potential life," Abortion is still, by your own argument, killing and murder.

[this_is_bullshit]

To the original thread topic:

Abortions should not be done unless the baby or the mother are going to die, or other dire circumstances, even then, it is a judgement call. I say this, as I am a parent & do not know what I would do without my young angels.

Rape victim? Give the child up for adoption, the child is still a child, nothing wrong with it, but if you cannot stand it, give it away, another couple would be happy to just have a baby, regardless of where from.

Had sex, didn't use protection, was irresponisble, now UH OH! I am pregnant? Deal with it, you were irresponsible, don't be even moreso by taking the easy way out by killing a child, give it to someone that can't have on of their own.

Besides that, if you have ANY sort of an inner voice or spiritual standard/belief, would you rather give the baby to a loving home, or kill another life, a defenseless baby, this baby that will look up to adults to protect & care for it until it can do so on it's own...

Frankly, unless the baby has no chance of being right or surviving past birth or the mother, etc. (Dire circumstances) then I think abortion is... BULLSHIT.

Just my 2 cents.

P.S. I dunno, but alot may argue this, however, being a parent makes a different view on this whole deal. Seeing my children look me in the eyes, & the way they look up to me, love me, respect me, & treat me as if I were the best thing since Gyros, like their Idol, makes this viewpoint a whole lot more biased. You parent's out there that love your kids like I do, yall understand, atleast partially where I am coming from.

I ramble lots.

[freakazoid]

RE: "Had sex, didn't use protection, was irresponisble, now UH OH! I am pregnant? Deal with it, you were irresponsible, don't be even moreso by taking the easy way out by killing a child, give it to someone that can't have on of their own."

Right on. Well said.

[freakazoid]

Artist: Monty Python
Song: Every Sperm Is Sacred
Album: Monty Python Sings

Download the MP3 here (only 4.2 megs) -

http://rapidshare.de/files/12303756/Monty_python_-_Monty_Python_-_Every_sperm_is_sacred.mp3.html

** Easy file download instructions...

> Click on the link above (or copy to your browser and go to that address),
> Scroll to the bottom of the page and click on the "Free" Button to begin download,
> Scroll to the bottom of the page that you are now in, wait for the timer to finish and then your download will begin automatically or click the "Download:" link.
> Enjoy!

Lyrics...

DAD:
There are Jews in the world.
There are Buddhists.
There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
There are those that follow Mohammed, but
I've never been one of them.

I'm a Roman Catholic,
And have been since before I was born,
And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
They'll take you as soon as you're warm.

You don't have to be a six-footer.
You don't have to have a great brain.
You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
A Catholic the moment Dad came,

Because

Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
If a sperm is wasted,
God gets quite irate.

GIRL:
Let the heathen spill theirs
On the dusty ground.
God shall make them pay for
Each sperm that can't be found.

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is wanted.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

MUM:
Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
Spill theirs just anywhere,
But God loves those who treat their
Semen with more care.

MEN:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
...God get quite irate.

PRIEST:
Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
...In your neighbourhood!

CHILDREN:
Every sperm is useful.
Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
Mine!
MOURNER #2:
And mine!
CORPSE:
And mine!

NUN:
Let the Pagan spill theirs
O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
God shall strike them down for
Each sperm that's spilt in vain.

EVERYONE:
Every sperm is sacred.
Every sperm is good.
Every sperm is needed
In your neighbourhood.

[General Septem]

Abortions should not be done unless the baby or the mother are going to die, or other dire circumstances, even then, it is a judgement call. I say this, as I am a parent & do not know what I would do without my young angels.
I agree, and in fact, I'm going to take it one step further. It is possible for virtually any mother to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal illness such as cancer, in which case abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save, her life. There are zero medical conditions in which abortion is the medically recognized treatment. In cases where childbirth would be fatal to the mother, c-sections are always available. C-sections can be harmful to the mother, and even crippling, but you must take into account that there are two patients involved, and every measure possible must be taken to save both.

For clarity, there are medical procedures besides abortion that do inevitably end with the death of the baby. Examples are when a pregnant woman requires a hysterectomy, or when the baby gets caught in the fallopian tube. The death of the baby is not the aim of either instance, but rather for the cancerous uterus to be removed, or for the problematic fallopian tube to be removed. These treatments and similar treatments are justified, as long as every measure possible (which may be nothing) is taken to prevent the death of the baby.

It should be known that contraceptive pills are abortifactents too. Maybe 80% of the time they'll block ovulation, but in the remaining 20%, ovulation does occur and conception is possible. However, the pill's "fail-safe" system thins and hardens the endometrial lining of the womb, preventing a one-week old embryo from implanting itself in the womb. Condoms don't kill when "accidental" fertilization occurs, but they interfere with the unitive aspect of sex. For this reason, my wife and I will use NFP when we get married (no, I'm not engaged). It's 99.5% accurate, doesn't interfere with the unitive aspect, and doesn't kill when it fails.

[freakazoid]

In all of this I often ask people who believe that "abortion on demand" is a "right" one question, and if they stop to think it over, it stumps them everytime..."what is your motivation for getting an abortion or supporting abortion?"

...answer - selfishness.

It sure as hell is not about caring for an unborn life 99.9 % of the time. It's almost always about good ole' number one...ME.



"Men are not against you; they are merely for themselves."
- Gene Fowler

[chainar1]

oh my...you're not a (sorry for missing the "a" last time but I do type fast) teenager...you're pathetic. first, I did not reference your initial comment so I ignored your reply about it in this post...just a waste of my time. second, it's clear that you missed the point in both my posts. So, read them over and get back to me on that one.


A rather hostile comment, chainar1, would you not agree? Indeed, I beg a moment of time my good man to address your veritable cornucopia of replies to my prose. Given that my posts were short and to the point. I believe your response to be lacking proper insight into the obvious that shall shortly be yours if you employ adequate faith. Let us examine my comments together, shall we?

Regarding my first comment of...

"Does anyone here wish that they would have been aborted? Personally I'm glad I wasn't. Ahhhh hmmmmm.......could be wrong about this."

We find a mixture of comic relief and a call to look within embodied herein. Consider, chainar1, the question as to whether or not one would have desired to be aborted oneself. The point is obvious and the wisdom, well now, could not have been clearer...we see the old adage of "do unto others as you would have them do to oneself." Ah yes, the wisdom of the ancient masters ad infinitum! The execution of this short comment, well, let us judge flawless! But, we continue in our journey of discovery...

Regarding my second comment in this most worthy of threads...


"Have you done this? Report back to us when you do and what the results are. We await your return."


What we encounter is a witty look into the nature of man. As is the nature of most human beings, we tend to believe that our ways of thinking, our past history of "learning" to be superior to that of our fellow man in which we disagree. One is reminded of the old and oft used strategy of "if you can't defeat a foe’s wisdom, denigrate his pedigree." It's an old story to be sure.

There you have it, chainar1, I have offered a degree of sophistication that I believe will satisfy your passion and desire. Should there be any other service I can offer you, any other counsel I can provide for you, indeed, any advice in seeking a lusty full bodied wine to enjoy parallel to a fine cigar, please feel free to make your lofty request known.

At your service my dimwitted chap! Good day,

TTTT...freakozoid.

Post Script:
OH, on the subject of my age dear colleague. That would be 48. Sufficient for your needs, I assume?

And regards to your comment of "you're teenager, right?" Please be so kind as to employ an attempt at proper English. The preferred nomenclature would be "you're a teenager, right?" Please note the use of the indefinite article of "a" which you entirely failed to render.

QED.

Ahh, youth!

[chainar1]

this is getting pointless. i was speaking about the nature of your source. once again, go over everything and get back to me.

you two are the reasons I do not frequent boards such as these...everyone just talks and talks without reading first. what do you both do for a living, if you don't mind me asking?


I didn't say science proved that abortion is wrong, I said that science proved that an unborn baby is alive. In fact, nobody that's actually into the issue doubts that an unborn baby is alive. The official arguments in the court rooms is whether or not abortion is constitutional. All this bullshit about the unborn baby not being a life is just that - bullshit, made up by the liberals and pro-choicers to get the people's support in the matter. Nobody ever doubted that the unborn baby was alive until relatively recently - we're talking within the last century or so, and people were performing abortions long before then.

About me being an asshole, I needn't remind you of the old saying about those who live in glass houses, do I?

[General Septem]

this is getting pointless. i was speaking about the nature of your source. once again, go over everything and get back to me.

you two are the reasons I do not frequent boards such as these...everyone just talks and talks without reading first. what do you both do for a living, if you don't mind me asking?
I'm self-employed, though currently I'm somewhat on sabatical so I can renew my skills and better my results in the trade. I'm in woodworking. My current project is an instructional DVD on building a solid-body electric guitar and bass.

How about you? I certainly hope you're not a public speaker, because if you knew how to speak more clearly and not ramble, then maybe we'd understand this "point" of which you speak.

[this_is_bullshit]

I agree, and in fact, I'm going to take it one step further. It is possible for virtually any mother to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal illness such as cancer, in which case abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save, her life. There are zero medical conditions in which abortion is the medically recognized treatment. In cases where childbirth would be fatal to the mother, c-sections are always available. C-sections can be harmful to the mother, and even crippling, but you must take into account that there are two patients involved, and every measure possible must be taken to save both.

For clarity, there are medical procedures besides abortion that do inevitably end with the death of the baby. Examples are when a pregnant woman requires a hysterectomy, or when the baby gets caught in the fallopian tube. The death of the baby is not the aim of either instance, but rather for the cancerous uterus to be removed, or for the problematic fallopian tube to be removed. These treatments and similar treatments are justified, as long as every measure possible (which may be nothing) is taken to prevent the death of the baby.

It should be known that contraceptive pills are abortifactents too. Maybe 80% of the time they'll block ovulation, but in the remaining 20%, ovulation does occur and conception is possible. However, the pill's "fail-safe" system thins and hardens the endometrial lining of the womb, preventing a one-week old embryo from implanting itself in the womb. Condoms don't kill when "accidental" fertilization occurs, but they interfere with the unitive aspect of sex. For this reason, my wife and I will use NFP when we get married (no, I'm not engaged). It's 99.5% accurate, doesn't interfere with the unitive aspect, and doesn't kill when it fails.


Great post man! I agree!

[freakazoid]

oh my...you're not a (sorry for missing the "a" last time but I do type fast) teenager...you're pathetic. first, I did not reference your initial comment so I ignored your reply about it in this post...just a waste of my time. second, it's clear that you missed the point in both my posts. So, read them over and get back to me on that one.

chainar1... How NOT to influence people and win friends...see quote in above comment. Let us focus in on the statement of "you're pathetic." Might I suggest a "Dale Carnage" course? Get back to me on that, junior.

"if you can't defeat an opponent's argument, denigrate their person"

- it's an old tactic, easily detected.

[freakazoid]

Your assumption is that ABORTION IS MURDER. I dont see it that way. I see it as if you were to remove a growth from your finger.

Since I am independet It would be considered murder.

"Growths from your finger" do not develope and grow into human beings called "babies."

QED.

[freakazoid]

"pro-lifers who support the death penalty"

We covered that ground........

Maybe we support the death penalty because vicious killers who deserve it are just slightly different than innocent babies who have done absolutely nothing to anyone? Hmmmmm, perhaps that might just be one reason. You think? Possibly?


Somehow this is obvious. But then, truth always is in the end.

[freakazoid]

this is getting pointless. i was speaking about the nature of your source. once again, go over everything and get back to me.

you two are the reasons I do not frequent boards such as these...everyone just talks and talks without reading first. what do you both do for a living, if you don't mind me asking?




We love ya, man. But take your meds, OK? Cheers!

[againstYOU]

I must say most of you have quite remarkable vocabularies and a true gift for words.
But how many of you have actual real life experience?
There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. You really shouldnt speak out on things that you have simply read about in books, its extremely unflattering.

[againstYOU]

This is so unbelieveably untrue!

Please, do some research. If you really believe any of this you are delusional. Do you have any idea what mortality rates are?

this board is ridiculusly uninformed.

[this_is_bullshit]

Please, do some research. If you really believe any of this you are delusional. Do you have any idea what mortality rates are?

this board is ridiculusly uninformed.
WTF are you talking about?

[this_is_bullshit]

WTF are you talking about?


BTW, on that note, I never said what you quoted me saying, quit making shit up!

P.S. what I said here: http://forum.bullshit.com/showpost.php?p=728&postcount=97

About getting pregnant accidentally, if you think about killing the baby cuz you were irresponsible, give it up for adoption, here is one more... If you kill the baby cuz you don't want baby blubber or stretch marks, you deserve to be aborted yourself.

[freakazoid]

I must say most of you have quite remarkable vocabularies and a true gift for words.
But how many of you have actual real life experience?
There is a difference between knowledge and wisdom. You really shouldnt speak out on things that you have simply read about in books, its extremely unflattering.

OK, hang on, be right back. Going to go get pregnant. Wait right there........oh, damn, can't do that. Wrong plumbing. Born male, with no interest in a sex change. Well, it's back to the good ole' books...........

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

OK, hang on, be right back. Going to go get pregnant. Wait right there........oh, damn, can't do that. Wrong plumbing. Born male, with no interest in a sex change. Well, it's back to the good ole' books...........
I love your rebutal.

[beelzebub]

Surely you jest. Let's see a sperm cell or an egg cell develop into a baby UN-JOINED with one another. I deeply and seriously doubt that any doctor, biologist, or any other competent person in such fields would except that a sperm cell or an egg cell constitute viable human life until joined..

Once again ... perhaps you should try reading. I did not say that it was VIABLE HUMAN LIFE as you wrote. If you are going to critique my responses please try to use MY responses not yours!

[/QUOTE]Are we going to call the molecules that make up sperm cells human life, potential or other wise? Are we going to call the atoms that make up the molecules human life, potential or other wise? Are we going to call the sub-atomic particles human life, potential or other wise? Etc. This is a ridiculous statement.[/QUOTE]

I agree and YOU MADE IT, not me. I said that I consider a fetus a potential human and thats it. I dont consider it fully human till birth.

[/QUOTE] It is very clear that human life begins at conception. This is called "sex101." Even if you were to call these physical parts mentioned above "potential life," Abortion is still, by your own argument, killing and murder.[/QUOTE]
I NEVER SAID Abortion is murder because I dont believe that it is. I do believe that it is killing.

Man!?!?!?! you really are very bad at debate. PLEASE dont go into law if you plan to eat anytime in the future.

[beelzebub]

I say this, as I am a parent & do not know what I would do without my young angels.[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit]

WHO GIVES A SHIT? That’s fine for you but not for someone else!

[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit]Rape victim? Give the child up for adoption, the child is still a child, nothing wrong with it, but if you cannot stand it, give it away, another couple would be happy to just have a baby, regardless of where from.[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit]

Easy for you to say. I am sure you know the wants and desires of everyone. You are SO MYOPIC and it astounds me that you think that you know whets right for everyone else. How arrogant.

[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit] Had sex, didn't use protection, was irresponsible, now UH OH! I am pregnant? Deal with it, you were irresponsible,...[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit]

THEY ARE DEALING WITH IT! THEY ARE KILLIG IT, which is one solution and PERSONALLY I THINK ITS A GREAT SOLUTION.

[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit]I ramble lots.

About your own narrow views .... Absolutely

[pokechop]

I'm not going to get into a debate about how bad rape is and all that, but I would like to make one personal comment. I have lived with someone who was a rape child, his mother loved him very much and had the strength of will to never treat him any diffrent from his sister. Sadly she's not will us anymore but he is going strong and proudly a parent now himself. Now if she had chosen abortion because she didn't want to be reminded of a single no matter how terrible experience, I would have been denied a friend in life, and another child would have been denied a life of his own.
As far as humans go, if your freind had been aborted.. you would have gone on with your life knowing other friends. Not knowing you had "missed" anything.. without your friend the world would have carried on.. and even without me.. the world would still have existed and progressed without me. I am ok with that. Now to tell a rape victim, "you have no choice but to carry this child, and possibly adopt it later".. that is denying that victim the choice on how they cvan best deal with the situation the best way that they can.. And as for your freinds mom who went through with the birth of the child of a rapist.. I admire her for being capable of doing so, and for your friend who would have to live knowing that their father was a rapist and that he was the result of a heinous crime.. that as well is admirable strength.. now, who are we to say there are no choices or options for people to deal with THEIR circumstances. I am pro choice.. Who are we to judge a person who has an abortion? (for all the christians, I was raised christian, it is against the teachings in the bible to pass judgement on others, yet "christians" pass judgement all the time.. especially on the abortion issues) It is up to the creator or whatever that individual believes in.. and you all have your points of view, and thats cool.. dont force your beliefs onto someone else.. I respect the fact that you are against abortions, yet I feel that the respect should go both ways! I also feel that pro choice is NOT pro-abortion.. I feel that it is enabling ALL individuals the choice to lead the lives they choose, and to respect each other for their individual choices.. pro-choice to me is exactly as it states.. giving people the right to make their own choices.

[General Septem]

I NEVER SAID Abortion is murder because I dont believe that it is. I do believe that it is killing.

If it's killing, then how is it not murder? The difference between killing and murder is whether or not it's justified, and IF abortion is killing, then it's certainly not justified because there is no acceptable reason for it.

For example, if someone on PCP came flying through your window throwing knives, you're justified in shooting that bastard's brains out to protect your family. That's killing, and not murder. But I don't see how that could possibly apply to abortion.

[beelzebub]

If it's killing, then how is it not murder? The difference between killing and murder is whether or not it's justified, and IF abortion is killing, then it's certainly not justified because there is no acceptable reason for it.

For example, if someone on PCP came flying through your window throwing knives, you're justified in shooting that bastard's brains out to protect your family. That's killing, and not murder. But I don't see how that could possibly apply to abortion.

In the criminal law, murder is the crime where one human being causes the death of another human being, without lawful excuse, and with intent to kill or with an intent to cause grievous bodily harm (traditionally termed "malice aforethought") (see attempted murder where the mens rea (the Latin for "guilty mind" requirement is limited).

So therefore ABORTION cannot be called MURDER because it is with LAWFUL EXCUSE!

[General Septem]

So therefore ABORTION cannot be called MURDER because it is with LAWFUL EXCUSE!
So basically, your whole argument is that the fact that abortion is "legal" all of a sudden makes it morally and ethically right. Well you're a hypocrite. If Bush made abortion illegal would you then turn ass-around and rejoice for the moral decision being made? I doubt that, but then your argument would be made worthless. What about in countries where abortion is illegal? What about in countries where the leader rapes people or commits genocide? Do you support that because it's legal in their country? Or is that different because those countries aren't America and are therefore wrong? Since when is America 100% infallible? Or is it that you really don't give a shit about the law unless you agree with it?

[this_is_bullshit]

[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit] I say this, as I am a parent & do not know what I would do without my young angels.[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit]

WHO GIVES A SHIT? That’s fine for you but not for someone else!

[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit]Rape victim? Give the child up for adoption, the child is still a child, nothing wrong with it, but if you cannot stand it, give it away, another couple would be happy to just have a baby, regardless of where from.[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit]

Easy for you to say. I am sure you know the wants and desires of everyone. You are SO MYOPIC and it astounds me that you think that you know whets right for everyone else. How arrogant.

[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit] Had sex, didn't use protection, was irresponsible, now UH OH! I am pregnant? Deal with it, you were irresponsible,...[QUOTE=this_is_bullshit]

THEY ARE DEALING WITH IT! THEY ARE KILLIG IT, which is one solution and PERSONALLY I THINK ITS A GREAT SOLUTION.



About your own narrow views .... Absolutely


You are sooooo stupid. GTFO.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=General Septem]So basically, your whole argument is that the fact that abortion is "legal" all of a sudden makes it morally and ethically right. Well you're a hypocrite. [QUOTE=General Septem]

Hypocrisy is the act of pretending to have morals or virtues that one does not truly possess or practice. I do not think that abortion is murder now or ever in the future regardless of the laws stance. Our argument was over semantics (the meaning of words in case you don’t know that one either). I said the we CANNOT consider it murder because it is lawful. Once again…..I wouldn't consider it murder whether or not it was legal. It is killing a life. Just like freezing a wart, slaughtering a hog or chopping the head off a chicken is killing too.

THE main difference that I see is that a fetus in INSIDE a BODY. Until the fetus comes out I don’t believe that we have the right to dictate how that baby is treated. It is for the woman to choose what she wants to do with it. I understand that all of you want to control others decisions but that IS NOT FREEDOM and it is not AMERICAN.
Of all things in this world please tell me that you believe that WE HAVE THE RIGHT to decide what goes on with our body.
You say that a fetus is a human and cannot be destroyed. I say the the fetus lives in the womb of another human. If that human chooses then not to keep that fetus in the womb IT IS HER CHOICE. Let then the fetus find a new womb with a view.
If you do not like abortion then don’t choose it for yourself. Try to convince others of your viewpoint but CONTROLLING OTHER PEOPLES DECISIONS concerning how they treat their OWN BODY is NOT DEMOCRACY.
If we allow the government to tell a woman what she has to do with her body … where will it stop?

[beelzebub]

You are sooooo stupid. GTFO.

Gee that was a great rebuttal for a neanderthall! You are doing well!

[General Septem]

You say that a fetus is a human and cannot be destroyed. I say the the fetus lives in the womb of another human. If that human chooses then not to keep that fetus in the womb IT IS HER CHOICE. Let then the fetus find a new womb with a view.
If you do not like abortion then don’t choose it for yourself. Try to convince others of your viewpoint but CONTROLLING OTHER PEOPLES DECISIONS concerning how they treat their OWN BODY is NOT DEMOCRACY.
If we allow the government to tell a woman what she has to do with her body … where will it stop?
You have rights over your own body but not when they infringe on others. Untill they can figure out how to remove a fetus from the womb whilst keeping it alive, you're stuck. Your right to throw a punch ends where your opponent's nose begins.

[beelzebub]

You have rights over your own body but not when they infringe on others. Untill they can figure out how to remove a fetus from the womb whilst keeping it alive, you're stuck. Your right to throw a punch ends where your opponent's nose begins.

Gimmie a break! Who said the fetus is another person? And if your right nose is in my body and your existence depends on another organism giving you everything necessary to carry on life YOU are not with individual rights because you are not an INDIVIDUAL. You are that other organism's body and just like your everything else your rights are given to you or taken away by that organism.

So lets make sure the government dictates what food we eat, how we die, when we die, where we live, who we can live with .... I swear you people are communists!

[General Septem]

Gimmie a break! Who said the fetus is another person? And if your right nose is in my body and your existence depends on another organism giving you everything necessary to carry on life YOU are not with individual rights because you are not an INDIVIDUAL. You are that other organism's body and just like your everything else your rights are given to you or taken away by that organism.

English, motherfucker.

Do you speak it?

Because I'm having a very hard time following your rambly method of talking.

[freakazoid]

I love your rebutal.

Some people just seem to set themselves up for a fun rebutal. Couldn't resist!

[freakazoid]

Once again ... perhaps you should try reading. I did not say that it was VIABLE HUMAN LIFE as you wrote. If you are going to critique my responses please try to use MY responses not yours!

Are we going to call the molecules that make up sperm cells human life, potential or other wise? Are we going to call the atoms that make up the molecules human life, potential or other wise? Are we going to call the sub-atomic particles human life, potential or other wise? Etc. This is a ridiculous statement.[/QUOTE]

I agree and YOU MADE IT, not me. I said that I consider a fetus a potential human and thats it. I dont consider it fully human till birth.

[/QUOTE] It is very clear that human life begins at conception. This is called "sex101." Even if you were to call these physical parts mentioned above "potential life," Abortion is still, by your own argument, killing and murder.[/QUOTE]
I NEVER SAID Abortion is murder because I dont believe that it is. I do believe that it is killing.

Man!?!?!?! you really are very bad at debate. PLEASE dont go into law if you plan to eat anytime in the future.[/QUOTE]



Your comments amuse me...

RE: "I agree and YOU MADE IT, not me. I said that I consider a fetus a potential human and thats it. I dont consider it fully human till birth."

Give me even ONE logical absolute or even "biological" reason or proof supporting your statement of "I dont consider it fully human till birth." How does "it" suddenly become "fully human" at birth as opposed to being "less than fully human" before "birth." Hint - "birth" is OUR term. It is a process of detachment from the mother and leaving the mother's womb (if you were to look at it in rather accurate and simple terms). Why do we have to see that process as "birth?" It is a good one, useful for many reasons to be sure. But we could also see "birth" as the moment of conception for other valid reasons. One being that there are many intelligent people who view the moment of conception as the beginning of human life (as many on this board do). So, I ask you again...

Give me even ONE logical or even "biological" reason or proof of your comment supporting your statement of "I dont consider it fully human till birth."

Why not "consider it fully human" at conception? I believe people who believe as you do consider "it" less than "fully human until birth" so "it's" life can be terminated virtually at will and for no other reason. If you were to view "it" as fully human (which I do), then abortion becomes (as I believe it is) murder in most cases other than to protect the mother from death by continuing to carry "it." When "it" is "less than human" ...so easy to kill.

Your roll.

[freakazoid]

Gimmie a break! Who said the fetus is another person? And if your right nose is in my body and your existence depends on another organism giving you everything necessary to carry on life YOU are not with individual rights because you are not an INDIVIDUAL. You are that other organism's body and just like your everything else your rights are given to you or taken away by that organism.

So lets make sure the government dictates what food we eat, how we die, when we die, where we live, who we can live with .... I swear you people are communists!



Your comments do not hold up under closer inspection. Consider...

RE: "Who said the fetus is another person? "

Me, and a lot of other people including professionals in many related fields in science, medicine, philosophy, law, biology, government, religion, etc.

RE: "And if your right nose is in my body and your existence depends on another organism giving you everything necessary to carry on life YOU are not with individual rights because you are not an INDIVIDUAL."

This comment fails to take in consideration, as an example, that new born babies are entirely dependent on "adults" (i.e., mother and father or other providers of the means to maintain life) to sustain their life and ARE most decidedly individual and human's with "rights." Additionally, many people due to old age or illness are also entirely dependent on other people to sustain life and they also have rights as in the right to live. Are you claiming that this reliant on others creates a situation of the lack or loss of human rights? I think not.

RE: "So lets make sure the government dictates what food we eat, how we die, when we die, where we live, who we can live with"

This comment is irrelevant or poorly explained. What relevance has it to abortion?

RE: "I swear you people are communists!"

Wrong. I, for one, am a conservative libertarian. Which, in the context in which we debate, means that I believe in the protection of the right of the unborn to life, not the murder of such life when deemed "inconvenient."

Conclusion - your comments suffer from being illogical and unproven.

You roll.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=freakazoid] RE: "Who said the fetus is another person?”
Me, and a lot of other people including professionals in many related fields in science, medicine, philosophy, law, biology, government, religion, etc.[QUOTE=freakazoid]

Wow I have the same feeling. In fact MORE,... over 78% of AMERICANS agree that abortion should remain a PERSONAL CHOICE. I have a community of educated professionals, lecturers professors doctors and lawyers bla bla bla

[QUOTE=freakazoid]RE: "And if your right nose is in my body and your existence depends on another organism giving you everything necessary to carry on life YOU are not with individual rights because you are not an INDIVIDUAL."
This comment fails to take in consideration, as an example, that new born babies are entirely dependent on "adults" (i.e., mother and father or other providers of the means to maintain life) [QUOTE=freakazoid]

So you agree with me! GREAT! Regardless of whether the infant is like the fetus or not YOU AGREE WITH WHAT I SAID!
I would separate and say that infants are defiantly different from a fetus because it can survive with any parent and a fetus cannot. Infants are only able to survive outside someone’s body while a fetus is not. And a fetus gets all of its necessary materials for life through the body in which it resides while an infant does not.

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Additionally, many people due to old age or illness are also entirely dependent on other people to sustain life and they also have rights as in the right to live. Are you claiming that this reliant on others creates a situation of the lack or loss of human rights? I think not. [QUOTE=freakazoid]

Well I am glad you "think not" on what YOU proposed I was "claming". Because on this separate issue: I wouldn't want to remove their rights.

Your definition of ENTIRELY DEPENDENT is not congruent to my argument. Anyone with minimal common sense can distinguish a FETUS' dependence on the mother from a separate individual such as an old person. But just for your sake: A fetus is not a separate individual! It LIVES IN another organism. Old people don’t!

[QUOTE=freakazoid]RE: "So let’s make sure the government dictates what food we eat, how we die, when we die, where we live, who we can live with"
This comment is irrelevant or poorly explained. What relevance has it to abortion?[QUOTE=freakazoid]

RELEVANCE: You want to control other people’s choices concerning their own body (e.g. abortion). This is akin to all the things I have listed.

Have I explained it well enough for you now?
You see..... some things discussed with others are assumed to be understood. I forgot that I have no idea with whom I speak. However I am beginning to see how limited I will have to be with my innuendos and wit. It would seem that I must explain things on an elementary level for you to understand.

[QUOTE=freakazoid] Conclusion - your comments suffer from being illogical and unproven.[QUOTE=freakazoid]

Conclusion: I think that you think because you say this that you have now proven something. I hope by reading ally my answers to your so called rebuttals that you will see how you need to improve and to focus on concepts that YOU can successfully argue. There are many in the ANTI-choice movement that makes sense. The same is true of the PRO-choice movement.

If I were pregnant I don’t know what choice I would make. I really don’t like abortion because it is often traumatic to the body. It is also emotionally difficult. But I do not want someone to make that choice for me.

Can you people see that since both camps have good points that it should remain a private and personal choice.

For example: (JUST A SENARIO) Christians believe that you will burn in hell if you don’t believe in Christ. What if they said that all people must attend church and be Christian in the USA or we will lock them up for "reconditioning" This would be (in my opinion) even more important to Christians than abortion. After all the fetus will "pop into heaven" as soon as its popped out of the womb. Whereas individuals will go straight to hell for all eternity if they don’t believe.

Do you think that this would be a viable option?
Is this what WE want for our country?

If you agree that this is a personal choice. You realize that you are allowing people to burn in hell for all eternity don’t you. But you realize that it is their choice. The same is true for abortion. IT IS THEIR CHOICE not yours.

If you don’t agree then you are a totalitarian, whose ideology does not fit in our country (democracy).

[beelzebub]

Give me even ONE logical absolute or even "biological" reason or proof supporting your statement of "I dont consider it fully human till birth."

poor choice of words on my part:
subsitute "FULLY HUMAN" for "SEPERATE INDIVIDUAL"

A fetus is totally human. My mistake.

[beelzebub]

English, motherfucker.
Do you speak it?
Because I'm having a very hard time following your rambly method of talking.

Gimmie a break!

Who said the fetus is another person?

And if your nose is in my body

and your existence depends on another organism giving you everything necessary to carry on life

YOU are not with individual rights because you are not an INDIVIDUAL.

You are that other organism's body

and just like everything else your rights are given to you or taken away by that organism.

~~~~~~Have I broken it down for you well enough genius?~~~~~~~~

[General Septem]

Who said the fetus is another person?

Prove that it isn't.


And if your nose is in my body

and your existence depends on another organism giving you everything necessary to carry on life

YOU are not with individual rights because you are not an INDIVIDUAL.

You are that other organism's body

and just like everything else your rights are given to you or taken away by that organism.

~~~~~~Have I broken it down for you well enough genius?~~~~~~~~
That's all your own opinion. You can't approve nor justify ANY of it. At least my pro-life beliefs don't ignore science, common sence, and the facts that we ALREADY HAVE. This bullshit about "oh, but it's so small" or "oh, but it can't think for itself" - it's all speculatory, you can't prove it, and it doesn't matter even if you CAN prove it.

[beelzebub]

Prove that it isn't.
That's all your own opinion. You can't approve nor justify ANY of it. At least my pro-life beliefs don't ignore science, common sence, and the facts that bla bla bla

A fetus is not a person because of its lack of any form of consciousness and more importantly it is not a seperate entity.

Debatable? yes Good arguments on both sides? yes. Therefor let individuals decide for themselves.

[/QUOTE]you can't prove it, and it doesn't matter even if you CAN prove it.[/QUOTE]

Ahhhhh we see. You will be right no matter what!!?!?! YOU want to control others. Well its not going to happen, it isnt happening and I will fight (as I have dont in the past) to make sure the people like you dont make it happen.
YOU WILL NOT DECIDE WHAT WE DO WITH OUR BODIES!

[General Septem]

A fetus is not a person because of its lack of any form of consciousness and more importantly it is not a seperate entity.

Debatable? yes Good arguments on both sides? yes. Therefor let individuals decide for themselves.


Ahhhhh we see. You will be right no matter what!!?!?! YOU want to control others. Well its not going to happen, it isnt happening and I will fight (as I have dont in the past) to make sure the people like you dont make it happen.
YOU WILL NOT DECIDE WHAT WE DO WITH OUR BODIES!
You can't prove the first statement. The second statement is highly selfish. If you can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a fetus is not viable human life (which you can't), then you can't risk murdering it. I don't care how you take it, controlling or whatever. It's not going to fly, and it never will. Not until putting my right hand around a Walther PPK, pointing it at you, and pulling the trigger is considered "control over my own body". Because it wouldn't be any different.

[beelzebub]

You can't prove the first statement. [QUOTE=General Septem]

OF course I can PROVE THAT A FETUS IS NOT A SEPRATE ENTITY! You have to know this. If not,... then your way too ignorant to debate this.

As for a consciousness it’s rather simple: Look at an infant compared to an adult. One can easily see that a consciousness develops in a direction from simple to complex. I say (as well as anyone who understands direction and time) that this development began from no consciousness to the point that it reaches in adults.

[QUOTE=General Septem]The second statement is highly selfish. If you can't prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that a fetus is not viable human life (which you can't), then you can't risk murdering it. I don't care how you take it, controlling or whatever. It's not going to fly, and it never will. Not until putting my right hand around a Walther PPK, pointing it at you, and pulling the trigger is considered "control over my own body". Because it wouldn't be any different.

You are so narrow. I see no point in talking to you anymore. You seem to be incapable of grasping the bigger issue here. One that I have been saying all along. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO YOUR VIEW as I do to mine. Let people decide what to do with their own bodies NOT THE GOVERNMENT.

You analogy of pointing a gun at my head is way too graphic. I would say that you fanaticized about it as you wrote it. Which tells me that you are sick? One that uses violence to silence opposition. This seems to be prevalent in people with your mentality.

[General Septem]

OF course I can PROVE THAT A FETUS IS NOT A SEPRATE ENTITY! You have to know this. If not,... then your way too ignorant to debate this.

As for a consciousness it’s rather simple: Look at an infant compared to an adult. One can easily see that a consciousness develops in a direction from simple to complex. I say (as well as anyone who understands direction and time) that this development began from no consciousness to the point that it reaches in adults.

"Seprate entity" doesn't mean anything. I said "viable human life", with all the inalienable human rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness that we all have. You can't prove that it doesn't have those rights.

Consciousness is debatable, but it also doesn't matter. Infants are barely conscious either, where do you draw the line? What magically happens at birth that institutes a sudden awakening in consciousness? We're ALWAYS growing, and always developing, and untill the day we die, we'll always be "underdeveloped" because there's always more room to grow.


You are so narrow. I see no point in talking to you anymore. You seem to be incapable of grasping the bigger issue here. One that I have been saying all along. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO YOUR VIEW as I do to mine.

You analogy of pointing a gun at my head is way too graphic. I would say that you fanaticized about it as you wrote it. Which tells me that you are sick? One that uses violence to silence opposition. This seems to be prevalent in people with your mentality.

You're an idiot. If I used violence to silence opposition, would I use the comparison between killing someone already born and killing someone not born to express why abortion is wrong? Think before you say these things.

[beelzebub]

"Seprate entity" doesn't mean anything. I said "viable human life", with all the inalienable human rights of life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness that we all have. You can't prove that it doesn't have those rights.[QUOTE=General Septem]

Rights are given or not given by US (we humans). You speak as if there is a cosmic law that you are following. I can prove that it doesnt have those rights because ABORTIONS ARE CARRIED OUT EVERYDAY.
Life Liberty & Persuit of happiness ... You forget the rights of the HOST organism (mother) in these rights.


[QUOTE=General Septem]Consciousness is debatable, but it also doesn't matter. Infants are barely conscious either, where do you draw the line? [QUOTE=General Septem]

At birth. You want to draw the line at conception.... remember ? Hence our little debate!

[QUOTE=General Septem] If I used violence to silence opposition, would I use the comparison between killing someone already born and killing someone not born to express why abortion is wrong?

Given that people with your mentality kill people getting/performing abortions and the fact that you described the gun to such an extent instead of generally citing something about killing........... Yes I do wonder.

[General Septem]

Rights are given or not given by US (we humans). You speak as if there is a cosmic law that you are following. I can prove that it doesnt have those rights because ABORTIONS ARE CARRIED OUT EVERYDAY.
Life Liberty & Persuit of happiness ... You forget the rights of the HOST organism (mother) in these rights.

Show me where the Constitution says "a mother has the right to her own body, even when it infringes on another person's life". The Constitution doesn't say jack about abortion, and if it'd occured to the forefathers of this country, do you think they'd have put that in there or not? Answer my question, since when is what's legal the determining factor in what's just? Why is America's Constitution the final say as to what's right? What if the Constitution said to kill people for random reasons (such as pissing you off)? Would you? Maybe you would. People like you are the reason cults exist.



At birth. You want to draw the line at conception.... remember ? Hence our little debate!

That's because THERE IS NOTHING before conception. Not the egg nor the sperm are potential life forms since it's physically impossible for either one to form into a life on their own, and their chromosomes and DNA are identical to their host's. It is only when these two fuse and create a unique DNA signature where cell division begins to occur and from this point on, the baby will progress and continue to grow until the day he or she dies.

Why do you draw the line at birth? What magically happens at birth to a baby's consciousness, individuality, etc? Oh, that's right, a whole lot of not-a-damn-thing. If you take a baby five minutes before birth, and a baby five minutes after birth, the only difference is that the latter is ten minutes older. How much do you change in ten minutes?


Given that people with your mentality kill people getting/performing abortions and the fact that you described the gun to such an extent instead of generally citing something about killing........... Yes I do wonder.
No, people with my mentality don't kill abortionists. People with parts of my mentality might, but that's different now, isn't it? Those people are crazy, and they give people like me a bad name besides.

What about Planned Parenthood? They're not exactly model citizens themselves - they've been known to give secret abortions illegally.

I'd "cited something about killing" and it didn't seem to get into your two good neurons. Besides, my point was that all I would've been doing was moving my hand, which by your reasoning should be acceptable since I have control over my own body - and my hand is still attached. If I'd specifically said "kill you" it wouldn't have worked out the same way. It wasn't that graphic anyway; grow a dick.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=General Septem]Show me where the Constitution says "a mother has the right to her own body, even when it infringes on another person's life". The Constitution doesn't say jack about abortion, BLA BLA BLA[QUOTE=General Septem]

It doesn’t. Therefore we debate remember? But the constitution (BTW I never brought this up you did) doesn't say anything about the fetus as "another person" as you said either. So therefore your "constitutional use" fails.

[QUOTE=General Septem]It is only when these two fuse and create a unique DNA signature where cell division begins to occur and from this point on, the baby will progress and continue to grow until the day he or she dies.[QUOTE=General Septem]

DNA Signature? As a biologist I will tell you I have never heard this before you. But so WHAT?
It begins to form, its unique, it grows, it begins to take in nutrients and cells divide.
The same could be said of anything living.


[QUOTE=General Septem]Why do you draw the line at birth? What magically happens at birth to a baby's consciousness, individuality, etc? Oh, that's right, a whole lot of not-a-damn-BLA BLA BAL[QUOTE=General Septem]

Who said I would draw the line at birth? I am thinking like 4th or 5th month. Why because I don’t think (remember this IS an educated view) any significant developments have occurred to consider it non-abortable.

[QUOTE=General Septem] No, people with my mentality don't kill abortionists. People with parts of my mentality might, but that's different now, isn't it? Those people are crazy, and they give people like me a bad name besides.[QUOTE=General Septem]

Thank you for this I was a bit worried. Now I see that you are OK

[QUOTE=General Septem]What about Planned Parenthood? They're not exactly model citizens themselves - they've been known to give secret abortions illegally.[QUOTE=General Septem]

Yea... remember we don’t consider this murder.

[QUOTE=General Septem]grow a dick.[QUOTE=General Septem]

Baby, if my dick grew anymore my boyfriend would wear a colostomy bag.

[General Septem]

It doesn’t. Therefore we debate remember? But the constitution (BTW I never brought this up you did) doesn't say anything about the fetus as "another person" as you said either. So therefore your "constitutional use" fails.

No, your constitutional use fails. You're the one that originally said that abortion is justified because of our "legal rights". You didn't specifically say constitution, but you said rights, and last I checked the constitution is where we get our rights from.



DNA Signature? As a biologist I will tell you I have never heard this before you. But so WHAT?
It begins to form, it grows, it begins to take in nutrients and cells divide.
The same could be said of anything living.

Whatever the fuck you call it, I'm not a biologist so I don't know these technical terms. What magically happens anywhere down the line that changes an unborn baby from not human to human? Heart beat? That happens after a week and a half or so. Breathing? Recordable brain waves? All of these happen early. Or is it different? Is it appearance? Consciousness? Individuality? None of these things can be measured, and if they could there still wouldn't be an arbitrary line we could draw.



Who said I would draw the line at birth?

You did.


I am thinking like 4th or 5th month. Why because I don’t think (remember this IS an educated view) any significant developments have occurred to consider it non-abortable.

So I'm asking, where do you draw the line? I'm not talking a line two months wide, I'm talking minutes and seconds. I want to know exactly where to draw the line, and why you came to that conclusion.



Yea... remember we don’t consider this murder. At least we don’t blow others heads off or burn others alive.

Nor do we.


Baby, if my dick grew anymore my boyfriend would wear a colostomy bag.
Oh, I see.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=General Septem]No, your constitutional use fails. You're the one that originally said that abortion is justified because of our "legal rights". You didn't specifically say constitution, but you said rights, and last I checked the constitution is where we get our rights from.[QUOTE=General Septem]

Last I checked the BILL of RIGHTS is where we got our rights. Which are amendments to the constitution.

[QUOTE=General Septem]Breathing? Recordable brain waves? All of these happen early. Or is it different? Is it appearance? Consciousness? Individuality? None of these things can be measured, and if they could there still wouldn't be an arbitrary line we could draw.[QUOTE=General Septem]

Would any line satisfy you for other than a continuous debate? I say my time period because overall the fetus is not that well developed. It (overall) cannot survive outside the woman. Once it can start surviving on its own I think the female has lost her time to choose (unless extremem cases)

Can you not recognize this?:
We do not agree. You belive that you are right. I beleive that I am right.
Can we say then that this is a personal choice (right or wrong). In other words one that should be decided by YOU and not the government?

[freakazoid]

[QUOTE=General Septem]Show me where the Constitution says "a mother has the right to her own body, even when it infringes on another person's life". The Constitution doesn't say jack about abortion, BLA BLA BLA[QUOTE=General Septem]

RE: It doesn’t. Therefore we debate remember? But the constitution (BTW I never brought this up you did) doesn't say anything about the fetus as "another person" as you said either. So therefore your "constitutional use" fails.



Damn good point, General Septem. I have argued against the nonsense that abortion is "moral" because women claim to have "rights over their bodies." To some degree, they do, everyone does. But, NO ONE has total rights to do whatever they want with thier bodies, especially if they use their bodies to hurt another person or take someone elses rights from them...like the right to live.

[beelzebub]

[/QUOTE] But, NO ONE has total rights to do whatever they want with their bodies, [/QUOTE]

And that’s what’s wrong with America. It’s your god dam body! Of anything in this world you should be able to do whatever you want to it. Why not people do what they want to their body? Why control other people?

ANSWER ME THIS: Why is it wrong to allow other people to decide what goes on, what goes in, and overall what they do with their body?

[/QUOTE] especially if they use their bodies to hurt another person or take someone else’s rights from them...like the right to live. [/QUOTE]

Duhhh No shit Sherlock. That’s not their body. The point I am making is that I do not consider a fetus individual. It is part of the host body.

Can anyone tell me why these people desire to make all decisions?

[freakazoid]

But, NO ONE has total rights to do whatever they want with their bodies, [/QUOTE]

And that’s what’s wrong with America. It’s your god dam body! Of anything in this world you should be able to do whatever you want to it. Why not people do what they want to their body? Why control other people?

ANSWER ME THIS: Why is it wrong to allow other people to decide what goes on, what goes in, and overall what they do with their body?

[/QUOTE] especially if they use their bodies to hurt another person or take someone else’s rights from them...like the right to live. [/QUOTE]

Duhhh No shit Sherlock. That’s not their body. The point I am making is that I do not consider a fetus individual. It is part of the host body.

Can anyone tell me why these people desire to make all decisions?[/QUOTE]



RE: "ANSWER ME THIS: Why is it wrong to allow other people to decide what goes on, what goes in, and overall what they do with their body?"

Nothing, but we are talking about the BODY (and the right to live) of an unborn human being. We have no right to murder them. But we do it daily.

RE: "Duhhh No shit Sherlock. That’s not their body. The point I am making is that I do not consider a fetus individual. It is part of the host body."

Good for you. Prove your point. Answer my comments where I prove you wrong. I repeat...

Give me even ONE logical absolute or even "biological" reason or proof supporting your statement of "I dont consider it fully human till birth." How does "it" suddenly become "fully human" at birth as opposed to being "less than fully human" before "birth." Hint - "birth" is OUR term. It is a process of detachment from the mother and leaving the mother's womb (if you were to look at it in rather accurate and simple terms). Why do we have to see that process as "birth?" It is a good one, useful for many reasons to be sure. But we could also see "birth" as the moment of conception for other valid reasons. One being that there are many intelligent people who view the moment of conception as the beginning of human life (as many on this board do). So, I ask you again...

Give me even ONE logical or even "biological" reason or proof of your comment supporting your statement of "I dont consider it fully human till birth."

I await your response. Please respond directly to my comment.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Give me even ONE logical or even "biological" reason or proof of your comment supporting your statement of "I dont consider it fully human till birth."[QUOTE=freakazoid]

Dear Freak. I made a change in my past responces to that statment.
Please try to keep up with the discussion.

You may repost your question with my change in mind and I will answer.

[General Septem]

Last I checked the BILL of RIGHTS is where we got our rights. Which are amendments to the constitution.

The Bill of Rights basically is the Constitution. Or part of the Constitution anyway. I'm not an American anyway so I don't really give a flying fuck.



Can you not recognize this?:
We do not agree. You belive that you are right. I beleive that I am right.
Can we say then that this is a personal choice (right or wrong). In other words one that should be decided by YOU and not the government?
Yes, but there's nothing to lose by not having abortions even if you are correct. In contrast, millions of lives are at stake by having abortions if I'm right. And I suppose you really can't prove it either way, and until you can I'm not budging.

[beelzebub]

/QUOTE] Yes, but there's nothing to lose by not having abortions even if you are correct. In contrast, millions of lives are at stake by having abortions if I'm right. And I suppose you really can't prove it either way, and until you can I'm not budging.[/QUOTE]

Nothing to lose? How about YOUR CHOICE in whether or not you want it. Look people will do it whether it is legal or not. You want to decide for everyone which is not right. Your higher ground makes you POMPOUS and a TOTALITARIAN. I hope that we humans will advance beyond such a simpleminded way of thinking.

[General Septem]

Nothing to lose? How about YOUR CHOICE in whether or not you want it. Look people will do it whether it is legal or not. You want to decide for everyone which is not right. Your higher ground makes you POMPOUS and a TOTALITARIAN. I hope that we humans will advance beyond such a simpleminded way of thinking.
Choice is not worth many millions of lives. The ones that'll do it whether or not it's legal are the ones that get abortions out of desparation because they think it's their only choice. There are crisis pregnancy centers for such people. I'm not saying the only thing we need to do is make it illegal, we also need to educate people before they turn into you.

This issue is so plainly obvious you'd have to be a complete dumbfuck not to get it. If it's a viable human life (and you can't prove it isn't) then there is no debate that killing it without reason (and there is no reason to directly kill him or her) is wrong; no different than if someone murdered someone else.

The verdict: prove to me beyond a fucking shadow of a doubt that an unborn baby is not human (which you've even said yourself that you think it is) before I'll even think about swaying. It'll never happen. You've said it yourself. I don't give a flying fuck how individual it is, because we're all dependent to a point. Even the most independent person on the planet is still dependent on oxygen and food. If dependency is a determining factor then we'd all be candidates for abortion, unless you made an arbitrary decision one way or the other. I don't want to hear it; it's bullshit. These are my terms. If an unborn baby is human, it deserves to live. Anything less is selfishness on your part. It's not a choice, you can't choose to kill someone. Don't want a baby inside of you? Too fucking bad. Tough it out for another eight months, get a c-section, offer your child for adoption, and leave me the hell alone about it. You can't kill an innocent human life.

[LARK]

/QUOTE] Yes, but there's nothing to lose by not having abortions even if you are correct. In contrast, millions of lives are at stake by having abortions if I'm right. And I suppose you really can't prove it either way, and until you can I'm not budging.

Nothing to lose? How about YOUR CHOICE in whether or not you want it. Look people will do it whether it is legal or not. You want to decide for everyone which is not right. Your higher ground makes you POMPOUS and a TOTALITARIAN. I hope that we humans will advance beyond such a simpleminded way of thinking.[/QUOTE]

This is an argument that nobody can win.

The Fact is IT IS OUR CHOICE not anybody else, the Govt should be putting more time into preventing these unwanted babies instead of debating should it be legal or not, and the ugly truth is if it was made ilegal then those poor girls would likely go to a back door abortion clinic, thus putting their lives at risk as well.

The answer is with education from the Govt and good parenting, it seems that we put the ambulance at the bottom of the cliff, should we not build a fence ontop of the hill?

Lets all stop debating if abortion is legal or not and spend more time in preventing these girls from having to decide, this can be done by putting preasure on the people that make the laws.

[General Septem]

the ugly truth is if it was made ilegal then those poor girls would likely go to a back door abortion clinic, thus putting their lives at risk as well.
That's wrong. There are two categories of those who get abortions:

The first category is the militant femme-dyke. It's a wonder these women get pregnant, but they make up about 90-95% of all abortions. They think of abortions as one step above birth control. Half of the time you've got to think they only got an abortion because "they're not going to let some man tell them they can't". Most of these women probably smoke and drink heavily because they can. These women probably won't get back door abortions, but you can bet they'll bitch up a storm if you make abortion illegal, especially if you're a man. Solution:

1. Find a femme-dyke.
2. Punch her.
3. Repeat step 2 until she gets it through her royal highness's head that she's not living in a fairy tale and that she doesn't have the right to do whatever the fuck she wants.
4. Repeat steps 1-3 until the bitchfest ceases.

The second category is those that get abortions out of despiration. Abortions in this case often hurt the mothers as well, but they did it because they felt they had no choice. These people probably would get a back door abortion if given no other choice. Solution: education and crisis pregnancy centers. Don't just educate the girls, though, educate their friends as well. What I mean by this is don't just tell the girls that they have these resources, but tell them that if their friends get pregnant to encourage these centers as well. There are always alternatives to abortion, unfortunately since you're pro-"choice", many women will never know of these choices.

[Hey Now]

I was 18 and pregnant. i didnt mind as i was in a stable relationship. I didnt want an abortion but i was hospitalised twice cause i couldnt eat or drink but was still continually throwing up. i had lost 12 kilos in 2 weeks before i was hospitalised. the doctors told me that i had to terminate the pregnancy or i would die because my weight was continually dropping. at this stage i was 7 weeks. if abortion was illegal i possibly would have died. im not saying my life was or is more valuable than that of my unborn child but my partner and i had to decide what we thought was best. in the end my partner made the decision. He and i both think about what life would have been like if we didnt have to make that choice but he still believes we made the right decision.

[General Septem]

You have my deepest condolences. I certainly don't ignore women in your situation, and I am sympathetic. However, I'm willing to bet a lot of money that they could've kept you alive for even 24 weeks, after which point you could've had a c-section and you'd have been fine after that. I have two friends who were born at 24 weeks. It might've taken a little longer since in your weakened condition the baby's growth may have been slowed, but I still think they could've done it. Abortion was an out and most doctors are too arrogant to take the flip side of the debate (and, consequently and ironically, other "choices" which they seem to be so fond of) into consideration, so they recommended the easy way out so they wouldn't have to deal with you. It's sad that the medical profession often works this way but it's true. I had dealings with a local hospital, for instance; I wouldn't put patient abuse past them so that those in hospice would die sooner and get out of their hair. This doesn't help your situation but you have to keep it in mind. Your situation was also extremely rare, too; this kind of thing makes up for maybe 0.5% of all abortions (if that). Nowadays it's possible for virtually any woman to be brought through pregnancy alive, and that was actually a quote from Alan Guttmacher (a big abortion proponent) back in the 60's, and we've come a long way since then. The only exception to this other than rare flukes is when a woman has a medical condition where she will die if she gets pregnant, in which case I'd strongly recommend the use of NFP. As a side note, have you had children since this incident?

A lot of these abortions could've been prevented had the woman been diagnosed with these conditions before she got pregnant.

[freakazoid]

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Give me even ONE logical or even "biological" reason or proof of your comment supporting your statement of "I dont consider it fully human till birth."[QUOTE=freakazoid]

Dear Freak. I made a change in my past responces to that statment.
Please try to keep up with the discussion.

You may repost your question with my change in mind and I will answer.



beelzebub (hmmm, interesting choice of a screen name):

True, at times I don't go back and read them all, but I do read the most recent, which should reflect your most recent thoughts. Which post are you referring to where you changed your mind? I will look, but if you desire, please refer me to the proper one or reflect the "change" here.

RE: "You may repost your question with my change in mind and I will answer."

My questions / comments are the same, (respond to any that you wish) they are...

Your comments, beelzebub, do not hold up under closer inspection. Consider...

RE: "Who said the fetus is another person? "

Me, and a lot of other people including professionals in many related fields in science, medicine, philosophy, law, biology, government, religion, etc.

RE: "And if your right nose is in my body and your existence depends on another organism giving you everything necessary to carry on life YOU are not with individual rights because you are not an INDIVIDUAL."

This comment fails to take in consideration, as an example, that new born babies are entirely dependent on "adults" (i.e., mother and father or other providers of the means to maintain life) to sustain their life and ARE most decidedly individual and human's with "rights" also. Additionally, many people due to old age or illness are also entirely dependent on other people to sustain life and they also have rights as in the right to live. Are you claiming that this reliant on others creates a situation of the lack or loss of human rights? I think not.

RE: "So lets make sure the government dictates what food we eat, how we die, when we die, where we live, who we can live with"

This comment is irrelevant or poorly explained. What relevance has it to abortion?

RE: "I swear you people are communists!"

Wrong. I, for one, am a conservative libertarian. Which, in the context in which we debate, means that I believe in the protection of the right of the unborn to life, not the murder of such life when deemed "inconvenient."

Conclusion - your comments suffer from being illogical and unproven.

You roll.

[freakazoid]

I was 18 and pregnant. i didnt mind as i was in a stable relationship. I didnt want an abortion but i was hospitalised twice cause i couldnt eat or drink but was still continually throwing up. i had lost 12 kilos in 2 weeks before i was hospitalised. the doctors told me that i had to terminate the pregnancy or i would die because my weight was continually dropping. at this stage i was 7 weeks. if abortion was illegal i possibly would have died. im not saying my life was or is more valuable than that of my unborn child but my partner and i had to decide what we thought was best. in the end my partner made the decision. He and i both think about what life would have been like if we didnt have to make that choice but he still believes we made the right decision.

Hey Now:

At the risk of sounding unsympathetic and perhaps a tad "old fashion." I think your situation would have been avoided with more "forethought" and less "foreplay." Or at least a condom, I might add.

Just for future reference.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Give me even ONE logical or even "biological" reason or proof of your comment supporting your statement of "I dont consider it fully human till birth."[QUOTE=freakazoid]

I dont consider it an individual till birth because it is not according to the definition of INDIVIDUAL.


[QUOTE=freakazoid]beelzebub (hmmm, interesting choice of a screen name):[QUOTE=freakazoid]

One of my most favorite books (one of many mind you)

[QUOTE=freakazoid] I will look, but if you desire, please refer me to the proper one or reflect the "change" here.[QUOTE=freakazoid]

I dont consider a fetus an INDIVIDUAL with INDIVIDAUL rights.

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Your comments, beelzebub, do not hold up under closer inspection. Consider...
RE: "Who said the fetus is another person? "
Me, and a lot of other people including professionals in many related fields in science, medicine, philosophy, law, biology, government, religion, etc.[QUOTE=freakazoid]

Who said.... This has been taken out of context. I was responding to someone (probably you) who said I SAID a fetus was a person.

[QUOTE=freakazoid]RE: "And if your right nose is in my body and your existence depends on another organism giving you everything necessary to carry on life YOU are not with individual rights because you are not an INDIVIDUAL."

This comment fails to take in consideration, as an example, that new born babies are entirely dependent on "adults" (i.e., mother and father or other providers of the means to maintain life) to sustain their life [QUOTE=freakazoid]

Jesus! I have already responded to this claim. A newborn is very dependent but not so much as a fetus: 1) Newborns do not require the host to provide ALL materials necessary for life (Oxygen, Heat & all forms of protection)
RE: "So lets make sure the government dictates what food we eat, how we die, when we die, where we live, who we can live with"

[QUOTE=freakazoid]and ARE most decidedly individual and human's with "rights" also. [QUOTE=freakazoid]

It is generally considered bad form preferace arguments with personal opinions when asking one to respond because one must answer with the inference in your question assumend as fact.

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Additionally, many people due to old age or illness are also entirely dependent on other people to sustain life and they also have rights as in the right to live. Are you claiming that this reliant on others creates a situation of the lack or loss of human rights? I think not. [QUOTE=freakazoid]

Answered this one too.... you dont really read much of the dialogue do you?

[QUOTE=freakazoid]This comment is irrelevant or poorly explained. What relevance has it to abortion?[QUOTE=freakazoid]

Answered this too

Try deleting resonses that you dont wish me to answer.

sloppy

[General Septem]

I dont consider it an individual till birth because it is not according to the definition of INDIVIDUAL.
We could debate that for years, but it still wouldn't change one little thing: who gives a fuck? Who says our right to live is dependent on how individual we are?

[freakazoid]

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Give me even ONE logical or even "biological" reason or proof of your comment supporting your statement of "I dont consider it fully human till birth."[QUOTE=freakazoid]

I dont consider it an individual till birth because it is not according to the definition of INDIVIDUAL.


[QUOTE=freakazoid]beelzebub (hmmm, interesting choice of a screen name):[QUOTE=freakazoid]

One of my most favorite books (one of many mind you)

[QUOTE=freakazoid] I will look, but if you desire, please refer me to the proper one or reflect the "change" here.[QUOTE=freakazoid]

I dont consider a fetus an INDIVIDUAL with INDIVIDAUL rights.

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Your comments, beelzebub, do not hold up under closer inspection. Consider...
RE: "Who said the fetus is another person? "
Me, and a lot of other people including professionals in many related fields in science, medicine, philosophy, law, biology, government, religion, etc.[QUOTE=freakazoid]

Who said.... This has been taken out of context. I was responding to someone (probably you) who said I SAID a fetus was a person.

[QUOTE=freakazoid]RE: "And if your right nose is in my body and your existence depends on another organism giving you everything necessary to carry on life YOU are not with individual rights because you are not an INDIVIDUAL."

This comment fails to take in consideration, as an example, that new born babies are entirely dependent on "adults" (i.e., mother and father or other providers of the means to maintain life) to sustain their life [QUOTE=freakazoid]

Jesus! I have already responded to this claim. A newborn is very dependent but not so much as a fetus: 1) Newborns do not require the host to provide ALL materials necessary for life (Oxygen, Heat & all forms of protection)
RE: "So lets make sure the government dictates what food we eat, how we die, when we die, where we live, who we can live with"

[QUOTE=freakazoid]and ARE most decidedly individual and human's with "rights" also. [QUOTE=freakazoid]

It is generally considered bad form preferace arguments with personal opinions when asking one to respond because one must answer with the inference in your question assumend as fact.

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Additionally, many people due to old age or illness are also entirely dependent on other people to sustain life and they also have rights as in the right to live. Are you claiming that this reliant on others creates a situation of the lack or loss of human rights? I think not. [QUOTE=freakazoid]

Answered this one too.... you dont really read much of the dialogue do you?

[QUOTE=freakazoid]This comment is irrelevant or poorly explained. What relevance has it to abortion?[QUOTE=freakazoid]

Answered this too

Try deleting resonses that you dont wish me to answer.

sloppy



I just have one simple question...

Do you, or do you not consider a "fetus" to be human life? If no, why? If yes, why?

PS, the "quote" function in this part of the baord does not seem to be woking properly.

[freakazoid]

We could debate that for years, but it still wouldn't change one little thing: who gives a fuck? Who says our right to live is dependent on how individual we are?

EXACTLY!! Yes!

[General Septem]

I just have one simple question...

Do you, or do you not consider a "fetus" to be human life? If no, why? If yes, why?

PS, the "quote" function in this part of the baord does not seem to be woking properly.
All the BBC is disabled in this thread, but Beelzebub's quotes wouldn't work even if it was enabled since he doesn't tag them properly.

[freakazoid]

All the BBC is disabled in this thread, but Beelzebub's quotes wouldn't work even if it was enabled since he doesn't tag them properly.

Hey General, do you know why they have been disabled?

[General Septem]

Hey General, do you know why they have been disabled?
I'm not sure, possibly it happened beause whoever started the thread accidentally turned BBC off and it affected the entire thread rather than her own post.

[beelzebub]

We could debate that for years, but it still wouldn't change one little thing: who gives a fuck? Who says our right to live is dependent on how individual we are?

The problem here is that I recognize the quandrum. Both sides have good points. This is why I say let the individual decide.
Why is it not OK for people to decide for themselves?

[beelzebub]

[/QUOTE] I just have one simple question...
Do you, or do you not consider a "fetus" to be human life? If no, why? If yes, why?
PS, the "quote" function in this part of the baord does not seem to be woking properly.[/QUOTE]

Yes I consider a fetus human and it is living therefore it has life.

Thanks for the PS

[beelzebub]

I'm not sure, possibly it happened beause whoever started the thread accidentally turned BBC off and it affected the entire thread rather than her own post.

What is the BBC (I assume its not the British Broadcast C?)
I find that my quotes are quite legible.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

I'm not sure, possibly it happened beause whoever started the thread accidentally turned BBC off and it affected the entire thread rather than her own post.
When I made this thread I put it on the section of politics. Then the next day it was on it's on indiviaul colum. So don't blame me for this one. I didn't do it. Also why aren't the other New sections quotes aren't working? See this isn't my fault.

[General Septem]

What is the BBC (I assume its not the British Broadcast C?)
I find that my quotes are quite legible.
Bulletin Board Code. And your quotes aren't fine, you don't end a quote with
, you end it with

I am Normal, I wasn't accusing you, I simply said it was a possible explanation. Either way the forum administrator should be able to fix it.

[General Septem]

Yes I consider a fetus human and it is living therefore it has life.
And if it has life, it is entitled to the right to live. I don't want to ehar this "individual" bullshit, it's not going to fly. You can't kill an innocent human life. Don't want it in you? Too fucking bad. You can't kill someone for driving like an asshole, and you can't kill your boss for being an asshole, and the baby isn't even being an asshole. You can't solve problems by killing people (unless it's a just war), deal with it.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=General Septem]And if it has life, it is entitled to the right to live. I don't want to ehar this "individual" bullshit, it's not going to fly. You can't kill an innocent human life. Don't want it in you? Too fucking bla bla bla bla bla bla[QUOTE=General Septem]
Cancer has life. We in the USA kill mommy pigs with babies inside. We then use them for fetal pig dissection. They have life in life. We have lip suction in the USA everyday. Those fat cells, and everything else, listed has life.

Are they entitled to live?

I don’t see why we have to have such a wholly reverence for a fetus. It hasn't done anything. It doesn’t interact with anyone except the host. Everything of value that it has is FURTURE TENSE which is nonexistent once it is gone. I don’t see the point in being so crazy about the potential for human life. There are PLENTY OF PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD. Eventually the Earth will be overrun with us.

I consider a fetus no more worthy to maturation then any of the examples I have given.

[General Septem]

Cancer has life. We in the USA kill mommy pigs with babies inside. We then use them for fetal pig dissection. They have life in life. We have lip suction in the USA everyday. Those fat cells, and everything else, listed has life.

Are they entitled to live?

I don’t see why we have to have such a wholly reverence for a fetus. It hasn't done anything. It doesn’t interact with anyone except the host. Everything of value that it has is FURTURE TENSE which is nonexistent once it is gone. I don’t see the point in being so crazy about the potential for human life. There are PLENTY OF PEOPLE IN THIS WORLD. Eventually the Earth will be overrun with us.

I consider a fetus no more worthy to maturation then any of the examples I have given.


HUMAN life. I said you can't kill an innocent HUMAN life.

Potential for human life? Future tense? Just a minute ago you said you consider a fetus to be already human, and alive.

It's things like this that make it so apparent that the pro-choice argument is bullshit. Can't keep your stories straight to save your life.

If you're so worried about overpopulation, go instigate WWIII and get off my nuts.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=General Septem]HUMAN life. I said you can't kill an innocent HUMAN life.

Potential for human life? Future tense? Just a minute ago you said you consider a fetus to be already human, and alive.[QUOTE=General Septem]

So what "its human life". I am saying that any part of a human is human life and we lkill human life without a moments notice everyday.

[QUOTE=General Septem]It's things like this that make it so apparent that the pro-choice argument is bullshit. Can't keep your stories straight to save your life.[QUOTE=General Septem]

Its things like this that make it apparent to me that YOU PEOPLE are full of pompus shit. My stories have been straight. I have been saying the same thing ALL ALONG. I dont consider this thing to be a REAL PERSON I dont consider this thing to be AN INDIVIDUAL. I consider it to be life, that is part of a human AND THATS IT.

You think that just because you say "A FETUS IS HUMAN LIFE" therefore it cannot be killed is valadation for your argument. You think that just because it is a fetus it is like killing any other person. I say BULLSHIT. A fetus is not like any other person. It hasn't become a person. It is not like a infant. It is not like an old person. It is UNIQUE ALL ON ITS OWN. Threrefore the rules governing it are seperate from other HUMAN LIFE. It is different! Any moron can see that.

[QUOTE=General Septem]If you're so worried about overpopulation, go instigate WWIII and get off my nuts.[QUOTE=General Septem]

Gee.... like thats a good point. Did I say that we need to off REAL PEOPLE on this earth? What a crock of shit.

[xcoughing]

i believe that human life begins with fertilization but that women have the right to kill their babies within the 1st trimester...

after all, the bible was written in hebrew and the 6th commandment says, "thou shalt not murder"... experts on semantics agree that there is a big difference between killing and murdering...

imo, killing a baby in the 1st trimester is no worse than killing an intruder in your home... i think that the reason the bible differentiates between killing and murdering is so that examples like the 2 aforementioned can "sin-lessly" occur...

[this_is_bullshit]

i believe that human life begins with fertilization but that women have the right to kill their babies within the 1st trimester...

after all, the bible was written in hebrew and the 6th commandment says, "thou shalt not murder"... experts on semantics agree that there is a big difference between killing and murdering...

imo, killing a baby in the 1st trimester is no worse than killing an intruder in your home... i think that the reason the bible differentiates between killing and murdering is so that examples like the 2 aforementioned can "sin-lessly" occur...


WTF? The baby is not an intruder in your body? Dude, go back to your cult & leave the rest of us alone! GTFO!

[xcoughing]

if you have a low level of reading comprehension, then please don't post messages...

if i had wanted to say, "babies are intruders in your body", then i would have said "babies are intruders in your body"?

but, what i said was:

"killing a baby in the 1st trimester is no worse than killing an intruder in your home"

...which to someone with the slightest bit of reading comprehension means that killing a baby is on the same level with killing a burglar who breaks into your house...

now do you get it?

unbelievable.

[General Septem]

i believe that human life begins with fertilization but that women have the right to kill their babies within the 1st trimester...

after all, the bible was written in hebrew and the 6th commandment says, "thou shalt not murder"... experts on semantics agree that there is a big difference between killing and murdering...

imo, killing a baby in the 1st trimester is no worse than killing an intruder in your home... i think that the reason the bible differentiates between killing and murdering is so that examples like the 2 aforementioned can "sin-lessly" occur...
You're right about the killing/murdering distinction. However, abortion is murder, not just killing. If you're going to use Christianity to try and prove your point, well let me point out that the Catholic Church does say that abortion is murder and therefore a grave sin.

Pro-life isn't just Christian, though. Name an atheist that thinks its OK to murder people. Those that are pro-life simply believe an unborn baby to be just as viably human as those that are born already (which they are). Add to that, our priorities are in order ("don't murder" comes before "do whatever the hell you want"). If you can't murder, you can't preform abortions. It's as simple as that. We're not the ones that are "holier than thou" because we're not the ones who believe we can get away with murder because "it's our choice and we can do whatever the hell we want". No. You can't do whatever the hell you want. If you want to do that, go join an anarchist cult, go off to an island, and ultimately kill yourself beause whatever psycho is in charge decides "our purpose is over".

[General Septem]

if you have a low level of reading comprehension, then please don't post messages...

if i had wanted to say, "babies are intruders in your body", then i would have said "babies are intruders in your body"?

but, what i said was:

"killing a baby in the 1st trimester is no worse than killing an intruder in your home"

...which to someone with the slightest bit of reading comprehension means that killing a baby is on the same level with killing a burglar who breaks into your house...

now do you get it?

unbelievable.
...and anyone with any intelligence can realize that she was merely making the connection between the two things. On the same level with an intruder? Who gives you the authority to rank people like that?

You know, Hitler didn't think the Jews/Polish/etc were true human life either. He thought of them in the same way as pro-abortioners think of unborn babies, and the reult is the same - babies are being holocausted every day. This is why I wish someone with some diplomatic and military power would have the balls enough to take on any country in the world in which abortion is legal. I don't just mean go to war, I mean wipe out their government and military and take over. Obviously they can't run their own country.

[freakazoid]

I just have one simple question...
Do you, or do you not consider a "fetus" to be human life? If no, why? If yes, why?
PS, the "quote" function in this part of the baord does not seem to be woking properly.[/QUOTE]

Yes I consider a fetus human and it is living therefore it has life.

Thanks for the PS[/QUOTE]

Excuse me for asking a question that you might have already answered, but if you "consider a fetus human and it is living therefore it has life" than why is it proper to be able to kill such human life at will? I.e., abortion. Is this "human living fetus" not therefore innocent and deserving of life?

[freakazoid]

Hey, what ever happened to "chainar1." Did we run the dude outta town? He seems to have split after only 11 posts.

[PointlessRambling]

QUOTE=General Septem]If you're so worried about overpopulation, go instigate WWIII and get off my nuts.[QUOTE=General Septem]

Gee.... like thats a good point. Did I say that we need to off REAL PEOPLE on this earth? What a crock of shit.

are you kidding me??? I didnt know that babies were not REAL PEOPLE. When did this scientific finding occur? Is there proof?



wow. After reading this stuff... Im scared for the human race. I never thought people could be so selfish and hard hearted. Since when are babies no longer human? I feel sick to my stomach reading some of the entries. If you feel that murdering an innocent being is just and is the only way to go about a situation, then I am sorry for you. Women who had abortions have ended up regreting their choices and feel temendous guilt and shame for how selfish they were in taking away this child's potential for life. Who is anyone to say babies are allowed to be aborted. NOT EVEN a mother should have permission to take away life. This is not about women's rights, nor was it ever. It is a harsh and overdramatic decision that should have no place in society. What about adoption? Doesnt a child have the right to live whether in the womb or not?

[PointlessRambling]

It should always be up to the woman to decide what she wants to do with her body. I know you will say "its not her body its a person" it dont matter IT'S IN HER BODY. i dont care how much you poeple say about it haveing a heartbeat and all oh well life goes on and shit happends. in the end no one can, or should be able to tell her what to do. People say "well theres always adoption" true and some woman have this done but some dont and for thoese woman that dont again it was their choice not your's not the governments and it never will be as long as this is a free country.
End of story.



ok so...if the woman has another human being inside of her body TEMPORARILY she can MURDER he/she because they are IN HER BODY? Wow I like your logic there mister Adolph. You should write a book about it

[beelzebub]

Excuse me for asking a question that you might have already answered, but if you "consider a fetus human and it is living therefore it has life" than why is it proper to be able to kill such human life at will? I.e., abortion. Is this "human living fetus" not therefore innocent and deserving of life?

Innocent? Guilty? The fetus is neither. It is as deserving of life as any other fetus or any other living thing. These are values that we can apply or not apply as we individuals see fit.
People are killed every day. Some of them are killed and we say this is a crime, some of them are killed and we say it is because of a crime. Furthermore some are killed because of no fault at all. Did they deserve the right to live?

The problem that I have with your line of reasoning is that 1) you think that human life cannot be killed for any reason 2) you think that human life is more sacred than other life

Its fine for you to believe what I have just outlined but it is a problem for you to enforce your beliefs on others by creating laws that dictate your line of reasoning.

I do not think that society has the right to tell its members what they can or cannot do to their bodies (and that means everything in their bodies).

There really isn't any argument that would make me think otherwise. Of any "right" in this universe this has to be one of the most central to democracy and freedom.

[beelzebub]

wow. After reading this stuff... Im scared for the human race. I never thought people could be so selfish and hard hearted.[QUOTE=PointlessRambling]

What’s worse: Allowing people to make decisions for themselves whether or not you agree with them
OR
Controlling everyone and making them do what you want them to do.
Personally I think the first is less "selfish"


[QUOTE=PointlessRambling]Since when are babies no longer human? I feel sick to my stomach reading some of the entries. If you feel that murdering an innocent being is just and is the only way to go about a situation, then I am sorry for you. [QUOTE=PointlessRambling]

Thank you for joining the discussion. Perhaps before you post something you might want to READ what has been discussed and then join in.

WE HAVE ALREADY DISCUSSED THIS

[QUOTE=PointlessRambling]Women who had abortions have ended up regretting their choices and feel tremendous guilt and shame for how selfish they were in taking away this child's potential for life. Who is anyone to say babies are allowed to be aborted. NOT EVEN a mother should have permission to take away life.[QUOTE=PointlessRambling]

This is BULLSHIT you cannot speak for the HUNDRED OF THOUSANDS of women who abort! You are ignorant to make such a blanket statement.

[QUOTE=PointlessRambling] This is not about women's rights, nor was it ever. It is a harsh and overdramatic decision that should have no place in society. What about adoption? Doesn’t a child have the right to live whether in the womb or not?

What about the woman? Doesn't she have the right to decide anything or is she just a vessel for us to control until the baby pops out?

What’s really sick is that the majority of you who believe in the ANTI-CHOICE movement don’t say anything about these babies put up for adoption. You think that just putting it up for adoption is a sure thing? YOU ARE CRAZY there are thousands of children put out of the system every year because they are too old for adoption. They are alive for sure but no families. If you think there are public programs and funding for these un-adopted children THINK AGAIN Your lovely president BUSH has cut most of the funding. That what republicans do,....you see? They cut social programs and enact laws to control personal decisions without doing anything to help what they change. (Not saying Democrats are any better but they don’t cut social programs as much)

[qbitty]

It is plain and simple, abortion should be illegal unless the person has been raped an therefore should have the choice to abort because she did not choose to get pregnant or if going full term will kill the mother. Now, if you get pregnant from just casual sex or from whoring around then that is your own damn fault and you should deal with the consequences because you know what can result if you don't do what it takes to prevent conception from occuring, so if you don't want to get pregnant then either keep your legs shut or use what is called PROTECTION..... Example pill, patch, iud implant, norplant, nuevo ring, depo shot, condoms, spermicidle foam, pull out even with condom being used, diaphram, womens condom, abstinence, tubes tied, man clipped, etc....... there are many ways to prevent so there should only be two reasons for abortion and no others, point blank. If you still get pregnant from using the above preventions, minus abstinence, then you still should have the baby because there is only one that is guaranteed to work so there again you know the risk you take. There is always adoption to, if the mother is unfit to care for the child. Thats what cps is suppose to monitor. Can anyone think of any other reason?????? In my opinion there is none.

FOR FUKK'S SAKE PEOPLE, THIS DRILLS ON AN OIL RIG GODDAM IT! IF (S)HE DON'T KNOW HOW TO CAP A VERSE ON ABORTION THEN Y'ALL HAVE LOST YOUR COOKIES RE: EARTH'S BLACK EJACULATION. THERE IS NO OTHER REASON, IF YOU FUKK UP YOUR PROGENY WILL PAY YOU BACK IN KIND, THERE'S NO DOUBT THERE. IN OTHER WXRDS, DEAD OR ALIVE, THAT WHICH YOU HAVE ABORTED WILL HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DECIDE AT ONE POINT DOWN THE LINE WHETHER OR NOT TO JUDGE YOUR ACTION RE: ABORTION. YES, IN MY OPINION, DRILLING ON AN OIL RIG IS LIKE FUKKING A HOT CHICK. I THINK I'M DRUNK...

[qbitty]

are you kidding? abortions arent killing anything, the ferilized egg isnt alive, it's a clump of cells w/ no brain. plus, abortions help stem cell research, which could lead to thousands of new cures

hello pedro, you're a pretty good bullshitter if i may say so myself, but i'd still go with the oil driller above, brain or no, dna is dna man, just flush it down the toilet, who gives a flyin' fuck?

[General Septem]

I THINK I'M DRUNK...
I THINK SO TOO.

I can't even tell if you're pro-choice or pro-life for freedom's sake.

[PointlessRambling]

Its a very complicated issue with lots of different points of view, and that's all they are. No one can say its right or it's wrong, because there are just so many ways to view it. Its an opinionated subject. I do believe however it is not the governments call on whether or not a woman can abort her child. But when someone has sex mutally with another person and she becomes pregnant she has already taken a risk in getting pregnant. If you don't want to become a parent than use protection or wait until marriage. Don't blame your faults upon an unborn baby.

////////////////
What’s really sick is that the majority of you who believe in the ANTI-CHOICE movement don’t say anything about these babies put up for adoption. You think that just putting it up for adoption is a sure thing? YOU ARE CRAZY there are thousands of children put out of the system every year because they are too old for adoption. They are alive for sure but no families. If you think there are public programs and funding for these un-adopted children THINK AGAIN Your lovely president BUSH has cut most of the funding. That what republicans do,....you see? They cut social programs and enact laws to control personal decisions without doing anything to help what they change. (Not saying Democrats are any better but they don’t cut social programs as much)
Today 10:42 AM
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Im not talking about politics, government, or laws. My arguement is not for the republicans or any other party. Politics just use this as another tool, but people should be INFORMED of the aftermath of their decisions. Every action has a reaction. I know this world is not perfect, but what does aborting a fetus do? whats the reason for it? who does it benefit?

[freakazoid]

i believe that human life begins with fertilization but that women have the right to kill their babies within the 1st trimester...

after all, the bible was written in hebrew and the 6th commandment says, "thou shalt not murder"... experts on semantics agree that there is a big difference between killing and murdering...

imo, killing a baby in the 1st trimester is no worse than killing an intruder in your home... i think that the reason the bible differentiates between killing and murdering is so that examples like the 2 aforementioned can "sin-lessly" occur...



RE: "killing a baby in the 1st trimester is no worse than killing an intruder in your home"

You're sick. Get help. In the meantime, take your meds and don't leave the house!!!

RE: " experts on semantics agree that there is a big difference between killing and murdering"

I seriously do not believe they intended to include murdering, oh, I'm sorry, "aborting" babies yet unborn to be placed in the "killing" category as in how you use the word "killing." Only a VERY SICK AND CONFUSED PERSON would equate an innocent unborn baby with "an intruder in your home." SERIOULSY, GET HELP, you're sick and need it!

Jesus! Now I've heard it all! Abortionists are just about the dumbest morons I have yet to meet!

[PointlessRambling]

But you cant change peoples views or opinions. It just makes us all mad... When will it ever be right? :(

[freakazoid]

But you cant change peoples views or opinions. It just makes us all mad... When will it ever be right? :(

When the killing stops. Not before.

[RandomPerson]

Like Pointless said, this whole debate will never end. Everybody has there own opinions and beliefs, so the argument is going to continue. Some people say it's wrong; then you have people who say it's okay if the woman gets raped. There's a number of opinions out there. What one person believes is right may seem wrong to another person. I personally say that abortion is fine (up to a certain number of days that is), but that's my opinion. If you want to know why, ask, but I know I won't convince anybody so that's why I won't bother posting it now.

[againstYOU]

No one gets an abortion because they WANT to, things happen. You should really step back and think, what if your daughter got pregnant at 15? What do you think the BEST option for her would be. For some people, having a child would be just fine. For others, adoption would work. But for many, abortion is the best option. Its not great. No ones likes it. But thats life.

[General Septem]

Actually MOST people get abortions because they want to. It's like one step up from birth control pills. A 15-year old girl's best option would be to have the baby, it might teach her to have a little more foresight next time some guy wants to get in bed with her. And chances are she'll not trust guys so easily either (since 99/100 the guy runs off when the girl gets pregnant).

Whatever reason you may think you have for abortion, think of it this way: would it be justified if the baby was already born? If the answer is no, then it's not justified before birth either. Since when did choice trump the right to live?

The problem with people like Beelzebub is that they can't be reasoned with because they have no morality. This is why they say things such as "well since when do humans have superior rights to live?". The truth is, these people would likely be killing whoever they want if it wasn't for the fact that it's illegal, but you can bet that even though it is illegal they'll bend the rules as far as they can to get their way.

[PointlessRambling]

wow dude... I really liked your post. I agree with you full heartedly. I think this thread should just end though. It's starting to be the same old stuff. Lets talk about something light hearted and fun!

[beelzebub]

Actually MOST people get abortions because they want to. It's like one step up from birth control pills. A 15-year old girl's best option would be to have the baby, it might teach her to have a little more foresight next time some guy wants to get in bed with her. And chances are she'll not trust guys so easily either (since 99/100 the guy runs off when the girl gets pregnant).[QUOTE=General Septem]

The debate here is one of intent. General you are dead wrong. "Against you" is correct! No one gets pregnant so that they can have an abortion (want to have an abortion).

I think that bringing a child into the world to have a 15 yo mother that doesn't want it is a curse worse than death. Using a child to teach another child (in this way) is a HORRIBLE idea that really doesn't think much about the ramifications of the choice.

[QUOTE=General Septem] Whatever reason you may think you have for abortion, think of it this way: would it be justified if the baby was already born? If the answer is no, then it's not justified before birth either. Since when did choice trump the right to live?[QUOTE=General Septem]

It’s amazing that you jump to such a logical conclusion from one so different. A fetus has not been born therefore it is not the same as killing a child that already born. I have listed in past arguments NUMEROUS examples as to how a fetus is different from a new borne. Check it out and educate yourself.

[QUOTE=General Septem]The problem with people like Beelzebub is that they can't be reasoned with because they have no morality. [QUOTE=General Septem]

Amazing...... This is exactly why people like you should not be making ANY decisions for the rest of us. You judge, make decisions and sentence like a jury without KNOWING anything. You defiantly do not know my morality or scruples and yet you have concluded for yourself that I have none. CRUDE RUDE AND TOTALLY WITHOUT THOUGHT (as usual).

[QUOTE=General Septem]This is why they say things such as "well since when do humans have superior rights to live?” The truth is, these people would likely be killing whoever they want if it wasn't for the fact that it's illegal, but you can bet that even though it is illegal they'll bend the rules as far as they can to get their way.

Now, you are just plain stupid!
I believe that you are attacking my personal character because you have no other logical recourse. You see that we are at a standstill and you still want to win. All I have been saying is GREAT! Then let individuals decide for themselves and not the government. You simply want to enact your ideas on other people. It’s not happening. Looser!

[freakazoid]

RE: "The debate here is one of intent. General you are dead wrong. "Against you" is correct! No one gets pregnant so that they can have an abortion (want to have an abortion)."

beelzebub...No one said that they did or at least no one is saying that a women gets pregnant with the prior intent to get an abortion. BUT...many DO decide after they get pregnant to get an abortion (obviously).

That is the issue here. General's statement of "Actually MOST people get abortions because they want to" is correct and relevant to the topic. I think what General is saying is that the majority of abortions are preformed merely for convenience sake. And in fact, they are.

[General Septem]

RE: I think that bringing a child into the world to have a 15 yo mother that doesn't want it is a curse worse than death. Using a child to teach another child (in this way) is a HORRIBLE idea that really doesn't think much about the ramifications of the choice.

Then ADOPT IT you dumbfuck. There's NO REASON to choose abortion over adoption.

Regarding your morality, you certainly haven't shown any. Answer this: What's stopping you from killing people that piss you off? And then explain to me why that same thing doesn't stop you from killing a preborn. And before you even tell me to "read up because I've already gone over this", allow me to clarify: bullshit reasoning doesn't count. So YOU read up at the bullshit you've told me so far, and then come up with different answers.

[RandomPerson]

I think that it's been discussed that adoption isn't always the best method. Yes, you put the child up for adoption, so that's all fine and dandy, right? Well, not necessarily. The child goes through life without knowing who his or her parents are, and there's also a good chance that the child will never be adopted. When he or she turns 18, however, I believe that the orphanage kicks the kid out as he or she is an adult. That's the problem. While there is the chance the child could get adopted, there's also the chance he or she will end up on the streets at 18.

And general septum, you seriously need to stop with the whole comparing killing a person to killing a preborn. You cannot compare the two. A person has emotions, memories, feelings, and can communicate with you. These aspects are not found in a preborn (depending on its development, a third trimester preborn does possess some of these traits, but by that time, the mother is past the point for considering abortion). But seriously man, you need to think before you post. I can understand your point of view at first (though, using the phrase "dumbfuck" does kind of reduce how much credit we can give you), but the idea that immoral people would just go and kill is a bit childish. You obviously listen to Fox News.

[freakazoid]

I think that it's been discussed that adoption isn't always the best method. Yes, you put the child up for adoption, so that's all fine and dandy, right? Well, not necessarily. The child goes through life without knowing who his or her parents are, and there's also a good chance that the child will never be adopted. When he or she turns 18, however, I believe that the orphanage kicks the kid out as he or she is an adult. That's the problem. While there is the chance the child could get adopted, there's also the chance he or she will end up on the streets at 18.

And general septum, you seriously need to stop with the whole comparing killing a person to killing a preborn. You cannot compare the two. A person has emotions, memories, feelings, and can communicate with you. These aspects are not found in a preborn (depending on its development, a third trimester preborn does possess some of these traits, but by that time, the mother is past the point for considering abortion). But seriously man, you need to think before you post. I can understand your point of view at first (though, using the phrase "dumbfuck" does kind of reduce how much credit we can give you), but the idea that immoral people would just go and kill is a bit childish. You obviously listen to Fox News.

RE: "And general septum, you seriously need to stop with the whole comparing killing a person to killing a preborn."

Why should he discontinue the comparison? It is, in fact, valid in the majority of the cases concerning abortion.

[RandomPerson]

Yes, this is the case when you put it so simply stated. It is about comparing killing a person to killing a preborn. Yet, general septum takes it to a different level when he incorporates morality and going on a killing spree because someone pissed someone else off. It's difficult to discuss this point as many people see a preborn as an actual human, when others, like myself, don't see it as a human. It is getting there, but it isn't a human yet. However, back to the point, I wouldn't go on a mass murder extravaganza because somebody ticked me off. As I said, I can interact with actual people; I can't interact with preborns.
But let me ask you this: If your idea that preborns are humans is true, what are the following animals below?

[General Septem]

But let me ask you this: If your idea that preborns are humans is true, what are the following animals below?
I'm willing to guess one or more of them is human and the other(s), if different, are animals such as the dolphin or whale. As an interesting side note, I know several people that look like rhinos, and they don't deserve to live either.

[Felicia3693]

I believe that whether a woman aborts her baby is her own business, and no, it should not be illegal. We could do without crack babies that have to go thru hell because of thier mother's carelessness, and certianly we dont need any more kids growing up in foster care being abused and molested only to grow up and become delinquents. However, I also strongly believe that everything happens for a reason, and the ability to give life is the most amazing blessing that God has given us women, and it is definitely taken for granted much too often. Abortion should not be illegal, but should be restricted, because after a certian amount of abortions it's obvious that the woman is not going to start making right choices for herself, and is also damaging her own body. We can't make it illegal anyway even if we wanted to, theres obviously too much contradiction and not all cases (such as rape) can be taken into account and proven- too complicated and too costly. And plus, try to take something from women and you'll see the mayhem it will bring!

[General Septem]

We can't make it illegal anyway even if we wanted to
Wanna bet?

[Felicia3693]

yes, i wanna bet- you cant fuck with free will, not even God does that. And i'm confident that you are not going to make it happen

[General Septem]

All it takes is for someone to start a war with the US and kick your sorry asses. The thing is, your argument doesn't work. The same argument could be said of legalized murder (which is essentially what abortion is anyway). Time and time again I've asked for clarification as to why killing an unborn is acceptable while killing an already born human is not. Since I've yet to recieve an acceptable answer to this, allow me to put it differently: under whose authority do you claim that one's right to live is based on these "differences"?

You Americans are no better than the Nazis. Hitler killed millions too, under the same justification that you claim to have, except it wasn't his body, it was his country, and he can do whatever he wants with his country. Because of the propaganda, most Nazis felt the same way about the Holocaust that you Americans feel about abortion. It didn't fly then and it's not going to fly now.

[freakazoid]

Yes, this is the case when you put it so simply stated. It is about comparing killing a person to killing a preborn. Yet, general septum takes it to a different level when he incorporates morality and going on a killing spree because someone pissed someone else off. It's difficult to discuss this point as many people see a preborn as an actual human, when others, like myself, don't see it as a human. It is getting there, but it isn't a human yet. However, back to the point, I wouldn't go on a mass murder extravaganza because somebody ticked me off. As I said, I can interact with actual people; I can't interact with preborns.
But let me ask you this: If your idea that preborns are humans is true, what are the following animals below?

That is an entirely absurd comparison and a ridiculous question. In fact it is pure ignorance! We are human because of our DNA, because of our genetic makeup, because of our parents, because of where we come from, NOT because of how we appear at 5, 10, or 30 days old in the mother's womb. In fact, just about all new life looks the same in the very beginning stages of development...i.e., a "cluster of stem cells." Concerning your statement above; nothing could be more ignorant to devalue a human being merely by observing its current state of development. It could be argued that you are judging the value of a human being by appearance only and its stage of growth as to whether it can be killed or "aborted." Again; this is illogical, a sick concept and an ignorant comparison typical of abortionists. You seem to place little value on so-called "unborn life." Sad, very sad. Nice try, but your attempt to prove your point and justify the killing of innocent unborn human beings has failed miserably. So far in this thread, I have heard abortionists argue (unsuccessfully) that unborn human beings are...

- "Not human,"
- "No different than an intruder in your home,"
- "the ferilized egg isnt alive"
- "it's just a clump of cells"
- "menstruation is murder!!!!"
- Etc., etc., etc.

The one I find most disturbing is "No different than an intruder in your home." You know, it's really interesting...


The Nazis' said just about the same thing about Jews and proceeded to murder millions of them.

I sometimes wonder if people who support abortion have any intelligence at all! You abortionists are sick, get help.

[PointlessRambling]

Yeah... I just stopped making arguements... It's an ongoing battle. Neither side will ever win. All you can do sometimes is live your life the way you want to and make your own decisions towards what you believe is right. I don't think we should judge or claim how horrible a person is if they abort an unborn child. That's their issue. It's great to have these opinions, but when people compare a preborn as "an intruder in your home", I question their sanity. Then again this is only my opinion. Maybe some people view fetus' as dangerous creatures that must be put to a stop. Hehe. Im just kidding...that is a bit morbid though..hmm. I don't have much to say after that. Im all out of witty comebacks and the lot of studied research. Peace out homies and don't forget your Jammies. :D

Be safe

[General Septem]

Yeah... I just stopped making arguements... It's an ongoing battle. Neither side will ever win. All you can do sometimes is live your life the way you want to and make your own decisions towards what you believe is right. I don't think we should judge or claim how horrible a person is if they abort an unborn child. That's their issue. It's great to have these opinions, but when people compare a preborn as "an intruder in your home", I question their sanity. Then again this is only my opinion. Maybe some people view fetus' as dangerous creatures that must be put to a stop. Hehe. Im just kidding...that is a bit morbid though..hmm. I don't have much to say after that. Im all out of witty comebacks and the lot of studied research. Peace out homies and don't forget your Jammies. :D

Be safe
I don't judge people by saying how horrible they are by having an abortion. I simply want it to stop, or at least dramaticaly decline. There's more to it than simply making it illegal, though, we need to teach children at an early age that abortion is a horrible thing. We need to teach it like they teach the holocaust. Then nobody will bitch about it being illegal.

Oh, if you plan to make a pro-abortion argument based on the Constitution, be sure to tell me if you're pro-gun control so that I can ignore your post more efficiently. Thanks.

[bloodeater_2009]

what if the fetus or baby is gonna die bcuz the mother can't develop it inside of her body. a mother doesn't wanna have a still born or go throuh miscarriage. have you ever thought about that?

[General Septem]

what if the fetus or baby is gonna die bcuz the mother can't develop it inside of her body. a mother doesn't wanna have a still born or go throuh miscarriage. have you ever thought about that?
So let it die, or see if it will in fact die or if Dr Gloom-n-doom isn't just buttering your bread a bit. There's a 100% chance of death with abortion, but if you don't it may only be 80%, even if a doctor says "LOL ITZ GONNA DIE U BETER KILL IT". Have you ever thought about that? :rolleyes:

[beelzebub]

The thing is, your argument doesn't work. The same argument could be said of legalized murder (which is essentially what abortion is anyway). [QUOTE=General Septem]

Whats sad is that you continue to use this phrase as if it validates your argument. PATHETIC! "Hearing the whiny voice of Septem" - You argument doesn’t work, your argument doesn’t work!!! Gimmie a break!

Stupid G-Septum read and read well- THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FETUS AND A HUMAN.

FETUS = Not separate individual, Relies on another organism to obtain all nutrients for life through a fluid transfer, Cannot survive outside that organism.

Infant to Adult = Separate Individual, Relies on self or other organism to get some nutrients (not ALL and not through fluid transfer); Can ONLY survive outside that organism.

[QUOTE=General Septem] Time and time again I've asked for clarification as to why killing an unborn is acceptable while killing an already born human is not. [QUOTE=General Septem]

Because it is not a separate individual (see above) and MOST IMPORTANTLY it is inside another organism THAT HAS A VOICE AND RIGHTS TO DECIDE WHAT HAPPENS TO ITS BODY. Since a fetus is apart of its body THAT INCLUDES THE FETUS!!!!!!

[QUOTE=General Septem] Since I've yet to receive an acceptable answer to this [QUOTE=General Septem]

That’s because you are ignorant and STUPID. It’s like talking to a brick wall. You cannot argue because you don’t have anything to argue about. You and Freak both HAVE NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL TO SAY. You speak a constant stream of nonsense and rhetorical statements.

[QUOTE=General Septem] allow me to put it differently: under whose authority do you claim that one's right to live is based on these "differences"?[QUOTE=General Septem]

On the authority: I MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS: TO & IN MY BODY! Defiantly NOT IDIOTS LIKE YOU. What gives you the right TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT OTHER PEOPLES BODIES? You really need to keep your nose out of other peoples business you control freak!

[QUOTE=General Septem] You Americans are no better than the Nazis. bla bla bal bal bal bla bla bullshit bla

America is better than your SHITHOLE of a country. You are just Jealous because we are a SUPREPOWER and your left picking up the scraps you commie asshole.

[beelzebub]

So let it die, or see if it will in fact die or if Dr Gloom-n-doom isn't just buttering your bread a bit. There's a 100% chance of death with abortion, but if you don't it may only be 80%, even if a doctor says "LOL ITZ GONNA DIE U BETER KILL IT". Have you ever thought about that? :rolleyes:

Talk about NO MORALITY - Thank you asswipe for deciding the proper medical procedure because YOU THINK ABORTION IS WRONG. "G-Septem says: Lets just forget the life of the mother she has a dead peice of flesh in her womb thats deserves to be born."
YOU ARE TOTALLY IMMORAL

[bloodeater_2009]

i ahve one serious question. why would "god" let women get pregnant if he don't like murder, when "he" knows people will kill them or he takes their lives hisself? hmmm....

[bloodeater_2009]

i know there is no god im atheist. i was just trying to prove a point to these dumb fucks

[Deez_nutz]

I was only pointing out to the masses that they have been getting the short end of the stick for thousands of years. Believing that there is a god is like thinking that one day this god will come down and save all these poor SOBs.

If there is a god, why would something with such power (well he did create this vast universe didn't he?) give a flying fuck about us? Face it, we're on our own here, created by science. Also in control over our own bodies and the decisions we make with our body.

[General Septem]

RE: Stupid G-Septum read and read well- THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN A FETUS AND A HUMAN.

Dipshit, it's /Septem/. With an 'e'. Talk about stupidity. And then you go an ride the caps lock every other sentence like some brain-dead AOLer. There's 7/16 of an inch between the 'a' key and the caps lock. That's the distance you need to move your pinky finger to not sound like an idiot.

RE: FETUS = Not separate individual, Relies on another organism to obtain all nutrients for life through a fluid transfer, Cannot survive outside that organism.

So what? Why exactly does a person's right to live depend on any of these qualities? It doesn't fucking matter!

RE: That’s because you are ignorant and STUPID. It’s like talking to a brick wall. You cannot argue because you don’t have anything to argue about. You and Freak both HAVE NOTHING SUBSTANTIAL TO SAY. You speak a constant stream of nonsense and rhetorical statements.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y40/akai-suisei/armnou.jpg :D

RE: On the authority: I MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS: TO & IN MY BODY! Defiantly NOT IDIOTS LIKE YOU. What gives you the right TO MAKE DECISIONS ABOUT OTHER PEOPLES BODIES? You really need to keep your nose out of other peoples business you control freak!

So what gives YOU the right to kill the fetus? It's the FETUS'S body, NOT yours.

RE: America is better than your SHITHOLE of a country. You are just Jealous because we are a SUPREPOWER and your left picking up the scraps you commie asshole.

My shithole of a country? Where the hell do you think I live? Or are you just another arrogant and dipshitted American who just thinks the rest of the world is a shithole?

[RandomPerson]

I know where you coming from blood, but you should have rephrased it a bit better. First off, if God, as in an entity which has supreme power over everything, is real, existed, the opposing argument, if they are religious (which is probably true) would state that God does not use an excess of power. Fine. He did he job and that's it. What you really should have said is that frankly, God is a pretty immoral entity himself. He did wipe out the entire population of Earth (except for few survivors) at one point because he was unhappy with them. There's other God-related and Bible-related things that could be said, but that's reserved for the religion section on this site. Point is that you can't use God as a reliable source for an argument for anti-abortion.

Next topic: comparing Nazism and abortion as the same thing. That really doesn't make much sense if you really think about it. You guys are telling me not to be shallow and judge by appearances, yet you simply state that abortion is like Nazism. What? How can you compare the two? Nazism was developed by a man who knew how to manipulate people and disliked a particular group of people. Add that plus a country that is facing a harsh time and looking for answers somewhere, and you'll get something like the Nazis. With abortion, I really don't see much of a hated group of people here. You can say "Oh, randomperson, you are wrong and immoral!!! There is a group of people here that's hated/disliked: unborn humans!" Well, not really. I don't hate unborn humans, and I'm pro-abortion. I think that a person shouldn't have a child if they can't provide for it. It'd be a shame for a child to grow with parents who do not want to deal with the child. So, by not having a child, this leads to a child being abused by his or her parents because they're unhappy with their lives. Anyway, the point is Nazism and abortion are two completely different issues and comparing them shows ignorance.

Another thing, saying that the US can be forced into something because some country will come and invade us and "kick [our] sorry asses" is pretty ignorant too. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but according to your ID, you currently reside in New York, which last time I checked, was in the US. So, if this place is such a shitty country, what the hell are you doing here? (Because you're obviously not a tourist if you have time for this) And another thing, if you really think a country could come and invade the United States, you really have to have a few screws loose. This is a country who has had about ten major wars in it's existance. While we aren't exactly the best when it comes to technology anymore, there is one thing we're good at, and that's war. I'm not saying I'm for war (in fact, I am very against it, especially the "War on Terrorism"); I'm saying that statistics show the United States is a good at war, and seriously, what country could come and beat the United States? United Kingdom? That would be the third victory for us against them. France? They're too busy drinking le café. Any country in Europe for that matter? Not a chance. In reality, any country that would have a chance is China at this point in time. Yet, they know it's pointless and stupid to start a war unless they have a reason. And if they did, well, it'd be World War 3.
Oh, and what country are you from anyway Septem?
Also, it seems like we have Maddox reader in here! Wow, talk about someone who we can trust to give a decent argument when he can't even come up with an insult that is original.

[RandomPerson]

Seriously, Deez nuts, go back to myspace.com and let everybody there know about your useless information. You're making an ass out of yourself, and nobody here really wants to deal with it. If you really want to stay, go to the landfill and post you're stuff there. Or if you really do believe you are the perfect comic, try the wit and humor section. We are talking about abortion here. So, back up your bags filled with your silly little teenage angst and leave.

[Deez_nutz]

Seriously RandomPerson, who really gives a fuck? Take a fucking look at the name of the site you are on, for anti-christ's sake.

I love it how these religious idiots think that there is a god and that only they will get to this place called heaven. I also love the fact that whatever they say or do should be law, no ifs ands or buts. There isn't 1 shred of evidence that your god exists, only in your heads, just like juniors imaginary friend. I like the fact that they think god "wiped out" the dinosaurs, who lived on this planet for billions of years (without any type of religious beliefs), but yet the humans have only existed for what, couple hundred thousand years and have fucked this planet up. How the hell would your god forsake this planet like that? He must have known. He has a "big plan" don't he?

I am sorry, but humans are the biggest self-centered, egotistical creatures on this planet and if it wasn't for us (so called god's children), there would be no problems on this planet at all. NONE! The plants, animals, what have you would survive just fine without us. I just love how we think that this is all for US and all about US! Humans are the only species on this planet that don't intertwine with other species for mutual benefit. No, we just kill or destroy everything around. We are the biggest virus on this planet.

Now you go on and preach to us about this stupid topic. Why the fuck not? It's not like there aren't more important things to do with your pathetic lives now is there?

[RandomPerson]

If you talked like that and made sense like that, I wouldn't care otherwise. Actually, I agree with what you just said. I just hate it when people talk "lyk dis." So, if you're doing that just to make fun at the people who do, that's fine by me. I just assumed you were one of them, that's all. But watch what you're saying about being pathetic, you are on here too, and even if you are here to pretend like you're a dumbass and get people flared up, you aren't exactly doing anything productive with your time right now, are you?

[Deez_nutz]

you aren't exactly doing anything productive with your time right now, are you?

I couldn't sleep, thinking about all these poor plants and animals dying out there gives me insomnia.

I am all for abortion and I think more people should have it. Isn't this planet overpopulated enough with people? All these people's arguments of whether or not it's murder is ludicrous. If people actually had these babies and put them up for adoption, it would clutter foster homes up even more than what they are now. It's already hard to adopt a child in this country with all the red tape and expense.

My girlfriend and I had an abortion. Sure we could have had the child, but we could not afford it at the time and didn't want to raise a child in poverty. I was raised like that I would be damned if I were to raise a child like that, not knowing where your next meal is going to come from or even if you have a roof over your head. But all that is OK as long as you don't abort, right? Bullshit! How often have you watched TV and seen a poor family with children wearing rags for clothes and thought to yourself, "those people shouldn't be having kids". I know everyone has said it, I have. I didn't want to end up that family.

There was also no way in hell I would put it up for adoption the way the adoption process is in this country. You can sit there and argue all you want to about our reasons, but until you walk a mile in our shoes......

Now were are doing a lot better financially, soon to be buying a house. We are also planning on having children in the near future, after I get my degree from college. So now we will be able to provide both food and a roof over all our heads.

Sorry for being a little bit of an ass, but I wanted to tell my story but just had to let loose a little before typing it out.

[General Septem]

RE: I am all for abortion and I think more people should have it. Isn't this planet overpopulated enough with people? All these people's arguments of whether or not it's murder is ludicrous. If people actually had these babies and put them up for adoption, it would clutter foster homes up even more than what they are now. It's already hard to adopt a child in this country with all the red tape and expense.

The nice thing about having 20 kids is that when I do, it'll piss people like you off. :)

RE: My girlfriend and I had an abortion. Sure we could have had the child, but we could not afford it at the time and didn't want to raise a child in poverty. I was raised like that I would be damned if I were to raise a child like that, not knowing where your next meal is going to come from or even if you have a roof over your head. But all that is OK as long as you don't abort, right? Bullshit! How often have you watched TV and seen a poor family with children wearing rags for clothes and thought to yourself, "those people shouldn't be having kids". I know everyone has said it, I have. I didn't want to end up that family.

Perhaps you should've decided that BEFORE you got her pregnant.

RE: Sorry for being a little bit of an ass, but I wanted to tell my story but just had to let loose a little before typing it out.

Seriously, how old are you, 12? Your post about itching "deez nutz" certainly lost you a shitload of credibility, at least from this end. I've argued with atheists before and it's all bullshit. They go and point out things in the bible that "contradict" that don't really contradict, they point out things that seem injust, and you know what? Every single one of them are pretty obvious. Take, for example, the pi=3 debate. If you're too much of an idiot to realize that the numbers were first of all rounded, and second of all not important, then what you need to do is try and fix your computer and accidentally fuck it up in the process like the dumbass you are, and leave people like us alone.

[RandomPerson]

Wow, septem, you seem to know all the answers especially since you're so credible, right? I mean this is coming from the person who compares a the Holocast to abortions. I've already given a quick explanation as to why doing so is stupid, so go back and read that. Also, I still would like to know what country are you from since you keep ranting about how Americans are stupid and that we will get our asses kicked if someone got in a war with us. Again, see an earlier post for clarification.

Another thing, stop trying to copy Maddox and get some original material. You talk of Deez nuts not having credibility (when all he was really doing was just joking around to piss people off), yet you go and say you're going to have 20 kids out of spite to pro-abortionists. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Twenty kids? Talk about losing credibility. And even if you are exagerating, which you probably are, and say you meant 10 kids, that's still a crazy idea these days. Sure, back in the Middle Ages and if you were a lord or king, yeah, why not? But today, I don't think so. You're obviously a male since you can say that without a problem. Try telling that to whatever woman that would let you impregnate her, and she'll laugh her ass off. Or maybe not. Maybe she'll say yes, and after the ten kids and raising them, she'll die about 15 years before you do and leave you alone, which is probably how things should be anyway.
Oh, and what should Deez have thought of before getting his girlfriend pregnat? You're a little vague there. But probably whatever you were referring to, he more than likely already had thought of before that happened.
And since you're a big fan of Maddox, here's a little something for you.

39,141 people think General Septem has his head up his ass.

[Deez_nutz]

The nice thing about having 20 kids is that when I do, it'll piss people like you off. :)

Yeah, it truly pisses me off <rolleyes> I guess along with this planet being overrun by people, it's also overrun by morons such as yourself.


Perhaps you should've decided that BEFORE you got her pregnant.

That's the only thing you could say in retaliation to my story? Wow, I am truly in awe. If all the other pro-life extremists are like yourself, I really don't think the pro-choice people really have much of a problem.


Seriously, how old are you, 12? Your post about itching "deez nutz" certainly lost you a shitload of credibility, at least from this end. I've argued with atheists before and it's all bullshit. They go and point out things in the bible that "contradict" that don't really contradict, they point out things that seem injust, and you know what? Every single one of them are pretty obvious. Take, for example, the pi=3 debate. If you're too much of an idiot to realize that the numbers were first of all rounded, and second of all not important, then what you need to do is try and fix your computer and accidentally fuck it up in the process like the dumbass you are, and leave people like us alone.

If I lost a lot of credibility with you, why should I be worried again, or even care? I would like to know how a math equation has anything to do with atheists. Please enlighten me on that you with your infinite wisdom. That is truly a sad example to use. For one, it made absolutely no sense, and another your babbling about something that you have no idea of what the fuck your talking about. Pi = 3.14159265, not 3 and not 3.1416.

I can see from this sad display of an argument, that you really have no clue what it is you're talking about. Sure, I was an ass before, but now I am cool. Now it's a match of wits and you surely came unarmed. Come one, a lot of people are going to look at your posts and think to themselves, "this guy has no clue of what the fuck he's talking about". Which is true. I say you should hit the books again and come up with something better and more concrete to say, because you truly have no clue.

[freakazoid]

I couldn't sleep, thinking about all these poor plants and animals dying out there gives me insomnia.

I am all for abortion and I think more people should have it. Isn't this planet overpopulated enough with people?



RE: "Isn't this planet overpopulated enough with people? "

No, that is total nonsense and a myth. A myth often used by abortionist's in arguing for "abortion rights." Sorry, but the "population bomb" has been out of credibility for decades. Yes, we have starvation in the world, but it is isolated to regimes of civil war and deep political instability which is the cause of 99% of starvation. The world produces many more times the amount of food that the current population would need to survive. Do you have any idea how much space there is on this planet? Here, let me tell you...

# Area of land: 57,268,900 square miles (148,326,000 km&#178;), equals 29% of the total surface of the Earth.

That is OVER fifty seven MILLION SQUARE MILES OF LAND. We have not come anywhere near close to running out of land to populate and use to provide for human need. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

# Area of water: 139,668,500 square miles (361,740,000 km&#178;), equals 71% of the total surface of the Earth.

Let's face it, abortionist, you abort and kill unborn human beings for ONE reason...convenience. At least admit the truth for once. I would have more respect for you if you did. At least the nazis' admitted why they were killing millions of people in Europe. They had their reasons, you have yours.

Here are the results of your handy work. Have the guts to look at it. Or are you afraid to do so? ...

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7049/abortedbaby114sw.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9790/abortedbaby128yy.jpg

Do these pictures look like a mere un-human "cluster of cells" as argued in other posts in this thread? No, but these human beings were still murdered, oh sorry, I mean "aborted" none the less.

[General Septem]

RE: Wow, septem, you seem to know all the answers especially since you're so credible, right? I mean this is coming from the person who compares a the Holocast to abortions. I've already given a quick explanation as to why doing so is stupid, so go back and read that. Also, I still would like to know what country are you from since you keep ranting about how Americans are stupid and that we will get our asses kicked if someone got in a war with us. Again, see an earlier post for clarification.

First off, I'm replying to your earlier post, I'm just taking a while since it was a big post and I'm busy. Second, my name is once again misspelled. It's "Septem", with a capital 'S'.

RE: Another thing, stop trying to copy Maddox and get some original material.

It wasn't supposed to be original, it was supposed to be true, and I didn't see any reason in rephrasing what alrady existed. For the record: yes, I quoted Maddox, get over it.

RE: You talk of Deez nuts not having credibility (when all he was really doing was just joking around to piss people off), yet you go and say you're going to have 20 kids out of spite to pro-abortionists. Do you have any idea what you are talking about? Twenty kids? Talk about losing credibility. And even if you are exagerating, which you probably are, and say you meant 10 kids, that's still a crazy idea these days.

Not necessarily. I know people with big families; it's not as hard as most people seem to think it is. And after a few, they start helping out around the house. You need a rather big house, but I plan to build my own house, and while you need a lot of food, I know I'd enjoy hunting. Yes, 20 is an exaggeration; the point really is that I'm never using birth control. I'm going to have at least seven, though, because I think the name "Septimus" kicks serious ass. (no, not "Septimus Septem", that's not my last name)

By the way, I know a few girls that wouldn't mind having 10 kids.

RE: Oh, and what should Deez have thought of before getting his girlfriend pregnat? You're a little vague there. But probably whatever you were referring to, he more than likely already had thought of before that happened.

He should've taken into consideration the fact that his lazy ass can't support kids before he got her "pregnat", that's what. Plus the fact that he probably shouldn't be reproducing to begin with. The kid's probably better off but it's still the wrong thing to do.

RE: And since you're a big fan of Maddox, here's a little something for you.

39,141 people think General Septem has his head up his ass.

Who's the plagiarist now?

At least 3 assholes can't make sense for the life of themselves.

[General Septem]

RE: I would like to know how a math equation has anything to do with atheists. Please enlighten me on that you with your infinite wisdom. That is truly a sad example to use. For one, it made absolutely no sense, and another your babbling about something that you have no idea of what the fuck your talking about. Pi = 3.14159265, not 3 and not 3.1416.

I was referring to the Atheist's claim that because the Bible supposedly says pi = 3 in one of the books, the entire Bible is not worth reading.

http://omegaplus.blogspot.com/2005/06/pi-3-shut-up-already.html

There's my stand on the matter.

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=General Septem] Dipshit, it's /Septem/. With an 'e'......BAL BLA BLA MORE BULL SHIT BLA BLA BLA..... That's the distance you need to move your pinky finger to not sound like an idiot.[QUOTE=General Septem]

First of all idiot were not talking about my typing skills. We are talking about abortion? Next I don’t "sound" like anything - you are reading my words asshole there isn't any sound!!!!!

[QUOTE=General Septem]So what? Why exactly does a person's right to live depend on any of these qualities? It doesn't fucking matter![QUOTE=General Septem]

That’s because YOU REFUSE TO ACCEPT THAT YOU ARE WRONG!!!

[QUOTE=General Septem]So what gives YOU the right to kill the fetus? It's the FETUS'S body, NOT yours.[QUOTE=General Septem]

Once again............ the fetus is the host’s body because it is connected and is cannot survive.

[QUOTE=General Septem] My shithole of a country? Where the hell do you think I live? Or are you just another arrogant and dipshitted American who just thinks the rest of the world is a shithole?[QUOTE=General Septem]

Hell no. I have lived in Africa for 3 years traveled most of it. Love it. Lived in Amsterdam traveled London & other parts of Europe. Love traveling.
I am just saying ANY COUNTRY THAT WOULD CREATE SOMEONE LIKE YOU MUST BE A SHITHOLE!

[General Septem]

RE: First of all idiot were not talking about my typing skills. We are talking about abortion? Next I don’t "sound" like anything - you are reading my words asshole there isn't any sound!!!!!

You convey sound through how you type, and riding the caps lock is like putting a big sign on your head that says "I AM AN IDIOT".

RE: Once again............ the fetus is the host’s body because it is connected and is cannot survive.

And for the hundredth time, why does connection mean it's necessarily "part" of the mother's body? You can't prove that.

RE: Hell no. I have lived in Africa for 3 years traveled most of it. Love it. Lived in Amsterdam traveled London & other parts of Europe. Love traveling.
I am just saying ANY COUNTRY THAT WOULD CREATE SOMEONE LIKE YOU MUST BE A SHITHOLE!

For the first time you're right - I live in America. :)

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=General Septem] The nice thing about having 20 kids is that when I do, it'll piss people like you off. :)[QUOTE=General Septem]

Seriously, how old are you, 12? How stupid can you be. If you want to have a litter of kids WHO CARES!?!?! I certanly could care less. I just dont want asses like yourself deciding for others how many they will have.

[QUOTE=General Septem] I've argued with atheists before and it's all bullshit. [QUOTE=General Septem]

Well given your history on bullshit.com I would say its more like you have babbled while atheists have argued.

[General Septem]

RE: Seriously, how old are you, 12? How stupid can you be. If you want to have a litter of kids WHO CARES!?!?! I certanly could care less. I just dont want asses like yourself deciding for others how many they will have.

Well then you obviously don't give a shit about overpopulation like you claim to :rolleyes:

[General Septem]

Ha.... you may life here but it didn't cerate you!
I was born here and lived here all my life. I simply don't consider myself American. So if this isn't my country, then what is this shithole of which you speak?

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=freakazoid] No, that is total nonsense and a myth. A myth often used by abortionist's in arguing for "abortion rights." [QUOTE=freakazoid]

You forgot that Environmentalists also feel the same way. If you were even close to a rational person you would realize that this is what’s happening.

[QUOTE=freakazoid] That is OVER fifty seven MILLION SQUARE MILES OF LAND. We have not come anywhere near close to running out of land to populate and use to provide for human need. NOT EVEN CLOSE.[QUOTE=freakazoid]

So let’s just fill the fucker up. SCREW the other living things. They don’t have a right to be here, just humans. We will let the living systems live in Florida.
Dumbasses like you are the reason we loose species every day.

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Let's face it, abortionist, you abort and kill unborn human beings for ONE reason...convenience. At least admit the truth for once. I would have more respect for you if you did.[QUOTE=freakazoid]

Convenience? Try: because it is OUR RIGHT to decide what happens to our body.

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Do these pictures look like a mere un-human "cluster of cells" as argued in other posts in this thread? No, but these bla bla bullshit bla bla bla [QUOTE=freakazoid]

Why I see now.... it’s the usual ANTI-CHOICE propoganda. These "photographs" are doctored. Typical.... can’t logically with so you lie to get your way!

[beelzebub]

I was born here and lived here all my life. I simply don't consider myself American. So if this isn't my country, then what is this shithole of which you speak?

So... you are totally mentally retarded. You are so far up you ideological ass you don’t even know what you are, where you are and what is right and wrong. Typical. Go read your “sacred text” and whip yourself over the shoulder with a flagel.

[General Septem]

So... you are totally mentally retarded. You are so far up you ideological ass you don’t even know what you are, where you are and what is right and wrong. Typical. Go read your “sacred text” and whip yourself over the shoulder with a flagel.
It doesn't change the fact that you just called your own country a shithole, and it's the first thing I've ever heard you say that I agreed with. :)

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=General Septem]RE: Seriously, how old are you, 12? How stupid can you be. If you want to have a litter of kids WHO CARES!?!?! I certanly could care less. I just dont want asses like yourself deciding for others how many they will have.

Well then you obviously don't give a shit about overpopulation like you claim to :rolleyes:[QUOTE=General Septem]

Unlike you I think there are better ways to deal with the problem: Education & Prevention. I don’t try to control others. I offer them alternatives and LET THEM DECIDE.

[beelzebub]

It doesn't change the fact that you just called your own country a shithole, and it's the first thing I've ever heard you say that I agreed with. :)

Wow - so you are mentally retarded! Well ...... interesting.

Look if you go around masquerading like you are not an American the please don’t be surprised when people assume that you are not from America! Idiot

[General Septem]

Unlike you I think there are better ways to deal with the problem: Education & Prevention. I don’t try to control others. I offer them alternatives and LET THEM DECIDE.
Deal with what problem, overpopulation? Better ways than what? You aren't making sense.

[General Septem]

Wow - so you are mentally retarded! Well ...... interesting.

Look if you go around masquerading like you are not an American the please don’t be surprised when people assume that you are not from America! Idiot
I'm not an American in spirit. Technically I am, but I'm still going to refer to "you Americans", simply because I don't share your patriotic arrogance. But in calling my country a "shithole" without even knowing what "my country" is, you made yourself look like the ass. Not because you were supposed to know I'm technically an American, but because you have no business calling anyone's country anything if you don't even know what country that is.

[beelzebub]

I'm not an American in spirit. Technically I am, but I'm still going to refer to "you Americans", simply because I don't share your patriotic arrogance. But in calling my country a "shithole" without even knowing what "my country" is, you made yourself look like the ass. Not because you were supposed to know I'm technically an American, but because you have no business calling anyone's country anything if you don't even know what country that is.

You made yourself look mentally retarded (hell you probably are mentally retarded.) I will say that anyone with any sense will recognize that you are the one who is an ass here. I couldn't be angry if I tried. I find you stupid and out of touch with reality.

[General Septem]

Well, if it wasn't for people like you, maybe I wouldn't be so embarrased to be associated with this shithole country.

[beelzebub]

Deal with what problem, overpopulation? Better ways than what? You aren't making sense.

OVERPOPULATION. Better ways than CONTROLING OTHER PEOPLE

Jesus please help your little retarded children.

[beelzebub]

Well, if it wasn't for people like you, maybe I wouldn't be so embarrased to be associated with this shithole country.

Cry me a river.

[General Septem]

OVERPOPULATION. Better ways than CONTROLING OTHER PEOPLE

Jesus please help your little retarded children.
Alright, this debate over which of us is more retarded is getting quite mundane. Let's get back on track, shall we?

[beelzebub]

Alright, this debate over which of us is more retarded is getting quite mundane. Let's get back on track, shall we?

Fine with me. You stop the personal assualts and so will I. For the record: I was behaving quite well until you started "acting up". Don't do that Septem! I can dish it out quite as well as I take it.

[General Septem]

Fine with me. You stop the personal assualts and so will I. For the record: I was behaving quite well until you started "acting up". Don't do that Septem! I can dish it out quite as well as I take it.
From my end, you seemes to be the one to act up long before I did. I'm sure I started before I realized it and you probably did the same. But we can end it here.

[beelzebub]

Fine whatever

But check post 197 and 195 to see "who was acting up" first.

[Deez_nutz]

RE: "Isn't this planet overpopulated enough with people? "

No, that is total nonsense and a myth. A myth often used by abortionist's in arguing for "abortion rights." Sorry, but the "population bomb" has been out of credibility for decades. Yes, we have starvation in the world, but it is isolated to regimes of civil war and deep political instability which is the cause of 99% of starvation. The world produces many more times the amount of food that the current population would need to survive. Do you have any idea how much space there is on this planet? Here, let me tell you...

# Area of land: 57,268,900 square miles (148,326,000 km²), equals 29% of the total surface of the Earth.

That is OVER fifty seven MILLION SQUARE MILES OF LAND. We have not come anywhere near close to running out of land to populate and use to provide for human need. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

# Area of water: 139,668,500 square miles (361,740,000 km²), equals 71% of the total surface of the Earth.

Let's face it, abortionist, you abort and kill unborn human beings for ONE reason...convenience. At least admit the truth for once. I would have more respect for you if you did. At least the nazis' admitted why they were killing millions of people in Europe. They had their reasons, you have yours.

Here are the results of your handy work. Have the guts to look at it. Or are you afraid to do so? ...

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/photosassorted/

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/7049/abortedbaby114sw.jpg

http://img100.imageshack.us/img100/9790/abortedbaby128yy.jpg

Do these pictures look like a mere un-human "cluster of cells" as argued in other posts in this thread? No, but these human beings were still murdered, oh sorry, I mean "aborted" none the less.

Did you also know that a lot of the land on this planet is not easily, feasibly or isn't habitable by humans? Go ahead a mow down some more rain forest or build a quaint little community in Antarctica or maybe on Mt. Everest. I also didn't know that there was a civil war or political instability in the United States, Mexico, Canada, South America or the UK but yet there is starvation going on in these places? Hmm, interesting. You seem to come up with some nice little tales of misinformation and untruths.

Why is it that when the pro-life extremists try to prove a point, they have to show a picture of something they have no proof of where it came (nice Photoshop BTW)?

I also have noticed that a lot of these extremists don't have anything credible to bring to the table on this debate, such as bringing up the Nazis or citing the value of Pi or even this land mass issue, none of which have anything to do with this topic. They always seem to try scare tactics or result in killing people (real people that actually think for themselves, unlike fetuses) at an abortion clinics or running fake clinics to try and get their points across. That's a pretty pathetic way to try and "prove" their point. Which is obviously not working and never will work.

Now I will let you get back to you pathetic attempt to try and sway people in to believing your lies, you sure have convinced me [/sarcasm]. Oh yeah, you can also try and pick apart my argument the way you extremists usually do, by saying the same ol' things you have been in the previous 20-some pages in this thread and every other time I have confronted an extremist (it's always the same BS, ALWAYS). Can't you come up with something new? No, really!

[General Septem]

Allow me to say it AGAIN: what difference does it make if someone can't think for themselves? Infants barely can too, yet you won't kill them.

The pi thing, if you'd cared to read my post, was in response to your volley of atheist bullshit. You're the one, in saying random atheist things, that threw the thread off topic in the first place, not me.

That pic isn't a photoshop. I've seen many more like it, and frankly, there's really no reason for us to photoshop something like that.

Let's look at something here:

Hitler: killed many Polish and Jews because they weren't "Aryan".

Abortion: Killed many more unborn babies because they're not born yet.

Hitler: Didn't think or care non-Aryans qualified as life

Abortion: Don't think or care unborn babies qualify as life

Hitler: Thought he was doing the right thing by creating a master race

Abortion: Don't give a fuck what's right as long as you can spread your legs all you want

Hitler: Can do whatever he wants with his country

Abortion: Can do whatever they want with their bodies


And on to how they aren't similar:

Hitler: Hated non-Aryans

Abortion: Don't acknowledge unborn babies as life, which is worse than hatred (and even if it's not it's still 4 to 1)

QED.

[General Septem]

RE: The problem that I have with your line of reasoning is that 1) you think that human life cannot be killed for any reason 2) you think that human life is more sacred than other life

...

And the problem with your line of reasoning is that you don't hold human life in high enough regard. I do, in fact, think it's ok to kill, but only in extreme circumstances. If some asshole on PCP is about to kill your wife and your kids, shoot the motherfucker between the eyes. Avoiding stretch marks or the "stress of having kids" is not an extreme circumstance. If the latter was, then it would in theory be ok to kill your kids even after they were born.

I know a girl who was adopted. In fact I love her very much. Not once have I ever heard her express regret over the fact that she doesn't know her real parents. Instead I've heard her say things such as how glad she is to be here, and how much she hates abortion (for what she calls "obvious reasons" - she'd have been a real likely candidate). I've actually known several adoptees. Do you know how many of them would've preferred to be aborted rather than having had to go through the stress of adoption? Roughly zero. You see, adoption may be tough for the first few years of one's life, even the first 18 years, but ultimately they'll get settled into their life, and once they do, hell even before they do, they're always glad to be alive despite life's curveballs. And if they're not it's their own fault. Concerned about people not getting adopted? Then encourage people to adopt more. Set up ad campaigns. Lobby for the government to make it easier. If that's your real problem then do something abot IT, not other vaguely related problems. If it's not, then stop using it as an excuse, and stop trying to tell me that adoptees are the only ones who have tough lives, particularly because in the majority of cases, they don't.