Partial Birth Abortions!!!!

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

Partial Birth Abortions are now outlawed thanks to George W. Bush. He passed a law that Bill Clinton was to scare to sign. This partical form of abortion is done during the 7-9 months (third tri-mester). The abortionist takes forceps turns the baby in the womb to be pulled out feet first and the baby is alive at this point. Then the abortionist delivers the entire body except for the head, which he/she stabs scissors into the base of the head. Then he/she spreads the scissors to make a bigger hole. When the hole is wide enough a suction catheter is inserted and the brains are sucted out. Then the skull collapse. The baby is removed and a prefectly healty baby is killed. Tell me how is right. Do women really have the right to choose if this human is worthy of living? Please tell me how killing a baby is suitable in anyway!!!!!!

[MastrShit]

Whoah Nelly!!!!!! You...uh....um....that's very detailed. That's some sick shit there!

Killing babies is in no way cool.....I spit at the people who are not cool. Yes, women have the right. It's inside them, so it is somewhat still part of there body. So if they want it removed, they can....Jesus christ! Women are sick! Well killing an "almost baby" may be good...who knows...it may be the next Hitler, so it may be better of dead.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

Whoah Nelly!!!!!! You...uh....um....that's very detailed. That's some sick shit there!

Killing babies is in no way cool.....I spit at the people who are not cool. Yes, women have the right. It's inside them, so it is somewhat still part of there body. So if they want it removed, they can....Jesus christ! Women are sick! Well killing an "almost baby" may be good...who knows...it may be the next Hitler, so it may be better of dead.

There is no way a women has the right to kill a perfectly formed human. It's just cruel.

[da holly shit]

well da u.s.a dnt seem 2 ave a problem wiv killing peps considerin death penalty n all der wars. personally i fink partial berth is horrible.

[sucks to be you]

I'm sure I'll probably draw considerable heat from this but I believe in the right to kill. Likewise I also believe that anyone who kills should be prepared to face the consequences of such actions. As such I pose the question, what could a partial born child ever do to deserve being put to death. Without needed a response I can comfortably say, not a damn thing and I damn well agree that partial birth abortion is oh so fucking wrong in so many ways. I hope the laguage does not offend but such an outrageous act deserves outrageous response. It might be assanine to say but I think anyone who couldn't have made the desision that bringing a baby into the world might not be the right right thing before 7-9 month into term should think more about having the tube inserted into the back of their own skull.

[ms_piss_off_woman]

I dont know why two persons had sex then never think of consequence.Baby is life for many generations to come.I am piss off why law pass abortion as aggreable thing to do.Presidents are supposed to be the protector of morality. Thou Shalt Not Kill, this was the first thing I knew from my children sunday school.Some outgrown the first novelty they knew in life when thoughts become so perverted with selfishness.I do hope young and even old mothers think first before terminating the life which they enjoy making during sex time.If you dont believe in God then its better that you ask yourself why your mother never aborted you too.

Partial Birth Abortions are now outlawed thanks to George W. Bush. He passed a law that Bill Clinton was to scare to sign. This partical form of abortion is done during the 7-9 months (third tri-mester). The abortionist takes forceps turns the baby in the womb to be pulled out feet first and the baby is alive at this point. Then the abortionist delivers the entire body except for the head, which he/she stabs scissors into the base of the head. Then he/she spreads the scissors to make a bigger hole. When the hole is wide enough a suction catheter is inserted and the brains are sucted out. Then the skull collapse. The baby is removed and a prefectly healty baby is killed. Tell me how is right. Do women really have the right to choose if this human is worthy of living? Please tell me how killing a baby is suitable in anyway!!!!!!

[ms_piss_off_woman]

I say this Thou Shall not kill.You live your life which you may take it for granted.However,fetus has same freedom to live.Its not your action that matters' most but of life mother carrying.If you dont like getting pregnant or having a child then dont go about doing sex like horse.

[ms_piss_off_woman]

I say this Thou Shall not kill.You live your life which you might take for granted.However,fetus has same freedom to live as you.Its not your action that matters' most but the life that you are given to care of.If you dont like getting pregnant or having a child then dont go about doing sex like horse. Or if you like you safe measure according to your body can take.

[beelzebub]

Get better information people! That bullshit that the conservatives, Bush & his cronies put out about Partial Birth Abortions IS SMOKE AND MIRRORS. Think about it PLEASE! If you want an abortion why wait for birth? Your skin streching the pain the expense WHY? The reason that people had partial birth abortions is because there was something VERY VERY WRONG with the baby (ex: hydrocephally) and the baby wouldn't live. This HYPE was put out so IGNORANT Americans would rally against abortion. AND IT WORKED! Another shining example of how stupid and misinformed Americans love to control each other.

Look at abortion on a broad scale: Arguments on both sides are good. Since we cannot come up with a difinitive answer that pleases both let the individual DECIDE for herself. Its freedom of choice.

[LaydeeL]

In my opinion, any type of abortion is wrong. If two people are having unprotected sex, in my eyes, they are planning a family. Some people use abortion as a form of emergancy contraception, which is wrong. Why should a baby die because someone didnt think about the consiquence of there actions? If a unborn baby can hear music ad feel movement - it can feel whats happening. If you cant love a baby your carrying, someone else can. Abortion shouldnt even be a option.

[boomstick]

I believe in abortion, but its something you need to prepare for and have some some responsibility with. If you want an abortion, you need to get off your lazy ass and do it as early as you can. If you don't know your pregnant until you are in the 7th month then you are dumb as mayonaise.

[mutt]

I only condone baby killing if the new born/feetus is eaten afterwards. That way the cycle of life is not disturbed too much, and the life force with in the baby is not just wasted in death. Being an engineer I am somewhat utilitarian in my views and opinions. This may not in any be common amungst other engineers, this was just a personal view on the matter at hand.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

I believe in abortion, but its something you need to prepare for and have some some responsibility with. If you want an abortion, you need to get off your lazy ass and do it as early as you can. If you don't know your pregnant until you are in the 7th month then you are dumb as mayonaise.
Well I don't believe in abortion at all but the last remark I do agree with!

[freakazoid]

"Partial birth" abortions? Is that like being "partially pregnant?" Just wondering.

[this_is_bullshit]

See, now that is just plain fucking stupid. Partial... WTF!?!?!?!?! What I posted originally (I moved entire body to abortion thread, but this makes my point too):

Abortions should not be done unless the baby or the mother are going to die, or other dire circumstances, even then, it is a judgement call. I say this, as I am a parent & do not know what I would do without my young angels.

Rape victim? Give the child up for adoption, the child is still a child, nothing wrong with it, but if you cannot stand it, give it away, another couple would be happy to just have a baby, regardless of where from.

Had sex, didn't use protection, was irresponisble, now UH OH! I am pregnant? Deal with it, you were irresponsible, don't be even moreso by taking the easy way out by killing a child, give it to someone that can't have on of their own.

Besides that, if you have ANY sort of an inner voice or spiritual standard/belief, would you rather give the baby to a loving home, or kill another life, a defenseless baby, this baby that will look up to adults to protect & care for it until it can do so on it's own...

Frankly, unless the baby has no chance of being right or surviving past birth or the mother, etc. (Dire circumstances) then I think abortion is... BULLSHIT.

Just my 2 cents.

Edit: P.S. I dunno, but alot may argue this, however, being a parent makes for a different view on this whole deal. Seeing my children look me in the eyes, & the way they look up to me, love me, respect me, & treat me as if I were the best thing since Gyros, like their Idol, makes this viewpoint a whole lot more biased. You parent's out there that love your kids like I do, yall understand, atleast partially where I am coming from.

Edit #2: Added a little.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

"Partial birth" abortions? Is that like being "partially pregnant?" Just wondering.

Partial Birth does not mean Partially pregnant. It means the baby is Partially born and then killed.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

How can someone kill a child that is able to live outside the womb?
That is just not right. I don't understand how someone cand do that.

[Korono]

While I am pro-abortion, abortion at the stage is simply ignorant. You've had over half a year to decide if you want to keep your child. By that time the child is alive and self aware. To decide to abort the child duringthe third trimester is either the work of fear, hormones or both. Neither is a good foundation to build such an important decision on.

[PointlessRambling]

well Im glad that no one here is for partial abortion. Get your tubes tied if ya dont like the end result.

[PointlessRambling]

Get better information people! That bullshit that the conservatives, Bush & his cronies put out about Partial Birth Abortions IS SMOKE AND MIRRORS. Think about it PLEASE! If you want an abortion why wait for birth? Your skin streching the pain the expense WHY? The reason that people had partial birth abortions is because there was something VERY VERY WRONG with the baby (ex: hydrocephally) and the baby wouldn't live. This HYPE was put out so IGNORANT Americans would rally against abortion. AND IT WORKED! Another shining example of how stupid and misinformed Americans love to control each other.

Look at abortion on a broad scale: Arguments on both sides are good. Since we cannot come up with a difinitive answer that pleases both let the individual DECIDE for herself. Its freedom of choice.



I like how instead of saying how wrong partial birth is he talks about how horrible the stretch marks are on a woman's belly!! And the expenses.... extremists like himself have no moral value, only care for themselves.

I think Beezlebub wants to kill off all religion and the entire human race.

[Korono]

Umm.... You can find out whether or not your baby has a defect before the third trimester.

[beelzebub]

I like how instead of saying how wrong partial birth is he talks about how horrible the stretch marks are on a woman's belly!! And the expenses.... extremists like himself have no moral value, only care for themselves.

I think Beezlebub wants to kill off all religion and the entire human race.

Well let’s look at what you are forgetting. I said that if the fetus has HYDROCEPHALY - (water head babies e.g. no brain) then a woman will suffer all the things associated with birth FOR NOTHING. Why not do the partial birth abortion? You attempt to misconstrue my position shows the failings of your own diatribe.

Extremists - When it comes to a person’s right to choose what happens to their bodies then I shall gladly take on the robe of extremism as you call it. It is quite obvious to member of this forum that I care for others. You yourself know that I am male yet I have spent a vast amount of time arguing the right for a woman to choose. Obviously I do care about others. You have no grounds by which to say that and it is obvious that there is room for improvement in your reading comprehension.

It is; however, obvious to me that you DO NOT care about others because you blindly make the statement that you are totally for secession of abortive procedures. Neglecting the wishes of others, especially concerning their priviacy, is difinitive of the "not caring for others" that you wrote. Quite nefarious; that you would accuse one of that which you are yourself.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

Umm.... You can find out whether or not your baby has a defect before the third trimester.

I'm a pretty sure you can. The side effect of the test is that it is possibly harmful to the baby inside the womb and also the mother is in possible danger. I know it can cause harm to the baby because it involves a large needle being inserted into the womb and blood is drawn out of the baby.

[Korono]

Yes, but it's the same test either way, so it doesn't matter whether it's in the first, second or third trimester.

[I am Normal! Hahahaha!]

Yes, but it's the same test either way, so it doesn't matter whether it's in the first, second or third trimester.

Umm....What's your point?

[Korono]

Simply that there seems to be no valid excuse for partial birth abortions.

[Archangel]

I like how instead of saying how wrong partial birth is he talks about how horrible the stretch marks are on a woman's belly!! And the expenses.... extremists like himself have no moral value, only care for themselves.

I think Beezlebub wants to kill off all religion and the entire human race.

I think you'll find that Beezlebub is one of the only ones with morality!!!
And talk about avoiding the subject, instead of putting forward scientific reasons you all just fill space with religious BULLSHIT! I am not religious so what is out their for me? You are all very uninformed and need to speak to a doctor about these things and not a red neck politicain. NOW I'M SERIOUS!!! I am sick and tired of having to shout about womens rights!!! George Bush is a racist (the fact that most people who died in the hurrcane were black is not a coincidence), ignorant, stupid (hense daddy having get him out of finacial difficulties when two of his businesses collaped), corrupt (Iraq= Oil, he HE OWNS AN OIL FIRM), Selfish (decreases madicare and medicade budgets because he doesn't feel that people with less mony deserve good health care, having always lived in extreem wealth himself) Cheeting (faking his military records, fixing the 2000 election from Al Gore- a more worthy and capable candidate) and a liar (WMDs lets send 2000 troops needlessly to their deaths!!!) HE IS AN ASSHOLE WHAT EVER HE SAYS IS A LIE!!!

Making partial birth abortions illigal will put many womens life in danger- I understand that is an unpleasent presedure- no one is denying it. but I BEG YOU, please do not support a man who, speaking as a British citizen, has frakly made your country look like a joke, when the whole world knows that you could be a force for good!

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I am not religious so what is out their for me?

You brought up morals. Arguably the most immoral act one can commit is the murder of another human being. That would make the moral thing to do is to ensure as much as possible that all conceived babies are born. So morality is what is in it for you.


George Bush is a racist (the fact that most people who died in the hurrcane were black is not a coincidence),

Are you blaming George Bush for the fact that the hurricane hit a portion of the country where the majority of the citizens were black? Bush knew that the hurricane was coming and made certain that the population of New Orleans consisted of mostly blacks? Do you know how long New Orleans has been a city of black culture? Even considering that Bush could be to blame for any of this is completely ludicrous.



Making partial birth abortions illigal will put many womens life in danger- I understand that is an unpleasent presedure- no one is denying it.


On the other hand, allowing partial birth abortions will make certain that MANY more children are murdered. The survival of the many outweigh the risk of the few.

[getinit]

Come on. I mean seriously. Abortion is not just a way to get out of haveing a child. It is a way to get out of spending a lot of money. How much does a kid cost. Let me give you a hint. 150000 dollars without a car or things like that. that money includes clothes and food. That is it. Kids are expensive. Sure maybe they shouldnt have sex, but sometimes it isnt there fault. Have you heard of rape. Some people just dont think things through.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Come on. I mean seriously. Abortion is not just a way to get out of haveing a child. It is a way to get out of spending a lot of money. How much does a kid cost. Let me give you a hint. 150000 dollars without a car or things like that. that money includes clothes and food. That is it. Kids are expensive. Sure maybe they shouldnt have sex, but sometimes it isnt there fault. Have you heard of rape. Some people just dont think things through.

Including you. Price is by no means a good reason to allow abortion. If you don't want the child and can't afford it, then there is ALWAYS the option of adoption. This is something that has been posted many times on this thread, I suggest you read the entire thing before making such asinine accusations and conclusions.

[letlifelive2003]

I think Getinit is worried about not having a car if he ever brings a child in this world. Kids may be expensive but a condom isn't.

[getinit]

Does a rapist use a condem. Lets take a poll. if you think they do raise your hand. Ya that is what I thought.

[letlifelive2003]

Where you raped? if not then shut up!

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Please, rape is the last thing that is being considered for the anti-abortionists. It happens so infrequently, and the possiblity of conception from it is far too unlikely as well. This is just some stupid argument that is being thrown in there by the pro-choicers to avoid the actual issues. The problem isn't with the consequences of rape! The problem is with the way so many girls feel that they can pass off their troubles by killing the child inside of them. Even if she were the stupid little whore who didn't take this possibility into consideration before performing the dirty deed!

Rape is a crime too, but that's still happening! Let's do what we can to stop rape AND to stop the murder of helpless children. Hell, you wouldn't try to dodge the rape problem by making that legal too would you?

[letlifelive2003]

Rape is just another excuse for people to have an abortion and make it alright. Once again it's bullshit - and people just don't seem to understand or know the meaning of ADOPTION. WTF!!!! Pull out the dictionary.

[cam]

you know what 1 out every 3 women are raped

[letlifelive2003]

Yes, and your point?

[beelzebub]

I think you'll find that Beezlebub is one of the only ones with morality!!!

Making partial birth abortions illigal will put many womens life in danger- I understand that is an unpleasent presedure- no one is denying it. but I BEG YOU, please do not support a man who, speaking as a British citizen, has frakly made your country look like a joke, when the whole world knows that you could be a force for good!

Thanks! I agree! I am very happy that someone has joined with my viewpoint.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Thanks! I agree! I am very happy that someone has joined with my viewpoint.

Yes, you've finally found one more person who's morals are flawed enough to allow executing the completely innocent. Congratulations!

[beelzebub]

Yes, you've finally found one more person who's morals are flawed enough to allow executing the completely innocent. Congratulations!

You are just jealous that i have one more friend than you.

[beelzebub]

Does a rapist use a condem. Lets take a poll. if you think they do raise your hand. Ya that is what I thought.

Good point Gentinit! Unfortunatly some idiots in this forum wont understand your logic.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

You are just jealous that i have one more friend than you.


Yes, and I'm jealous that get to stand closer to the front of the line when we go out on field trips just because your name is higher up in the alphabet too!

Seriously, do you really need to make grades school comments like this to make yourself feel better?


Good point Gentinit! Unfortunatly some idiots in this forum wont understand your logic.

Quite the opposite. We understand it and point out the falacies in it. Look at my post following that comment getinit made, it states it very clearly. Please just try to look at it with an open mind. Don't let your misguided opinions of me force you to block your understanding of it.

[beelzebub]

Yes, and I'm jealous...

I knew it.


Look at my post following that comment getinit made.

"The problem isn't with the consequences of rape! The problem is with the way so many girls feel that they can pass off their troubles by killing the child inside of them. Even if she were the stupid little whore who didn't take this possibility into consideration before performing the dirty deed!"

Yeah I see the comment. I see how narrow your mind is: "Stupid little whore"
Thats real open minded of you. Very caring and understanding.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Yeah I see the comment. I see how narrow your mind is: "Stupid little whore"
Thats real open minded of you. Very caring and understanding.


Putting the choice of words aside, you have not disagreed with the statement at all. Yes, I have an opinion of people who decide to kill others to make their lives easier. I am not afraid to share it. Tell me how sharing one's opinion of acts taken closes the door on open mindedness. I am much more caring and understanding of a girl who takes responsibility for her actions than one who murders simply to dodge the consequences of them.

[beelzebub]

Tell me how sharing one's opinion of acts taken closes the door on open mindedness. I am much more caring and understanding of a girl who takes responsibility for her actions than one who murders simply to dodge the consequences

Because you classify all that have an abortion as people who "dodge the consequences of them" tells me that you are narrow minded. There are many reasons that people have abortions. You choose to classify all of them as "whores". Just because you dont agree with a stance doesnt mean that everyone who goes agains you are wrong.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

[QUOTE=beelzebub]Because you classify all that have an abortion as people who "dodge the consequences of them" tells me that you are narrow minded. There are many reasons that people have abortions.[QUOTE]

And which of these reasons doesn't include a dodge of the consequences?

[beelzebub]

And which of these reasons doesn't include a dodge of the consequences?

It depends on the woman. All of them have to think of what could of been. Thay have to live with the fact that they have made a mistake.

People such as yourself only think of the legal consequences I guess.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

It depends on the woman. All of them have to think of what could of been. Thay have to live with the fact that they have made a mistake.

People such as yourself only think of the legal consequences I guess.

That doesn't answer the question at all. Let me rephrase it. When would a woman have an abortion for a reason that cannot be classified as dodging at least one of the consequences of the abortion?

[beelzebub]

That doesn't answer the question at all. Let me rephrase it. When would a woman have an abortion for a reason that cannot be classified as dodging at least one of the consequences of the abortion?

All of them! I believe that when a woman chooses to have an abortion she is ACCEPTING responsibility.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

All of them! I believe that when a woman chooses to have an abortion she is ACCEPTING responsibility.

She is only accepting the responsibility of the death of a child. This is not viewed as such in this country so she isn't even accepting that. Why do you insist on twisting the truth to benefit your murderous points of view?

[beelzebub]

She is only accepting the responsibility of the death of a child. This is not viewed as such in this country so she isn't even accepting that. Why do you insist on twisting the truth to benefit your murderous points of view?

That’s your viewpoint. I disagree. Twisting? I am merely speaking the truth that you choose to ignore.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

That’s your viewpoint. I disagree. Twisting? I am merely speaking the truth that you choose to ignore.

No, you aren't understanding the truth. The truth is that she is dodging the responsibility. You do not gain any extra responsibility by throwing your responsibilities in the nearest trash bin.

[beelzebub]

No, you aren't understanding the truth. The truth is that she is dodging the responsibility. You do not gain any extra responsibility by throwing your responsibilities in the nearest trash bin.

I think differently. Its not wrong. Its different than you. ACCEPT IT.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I think differently. Its not wrong. Its different than you. ACCEPT IT.

The point is that abortion is murder. This is not something that I can just accept. It needs to be outlawed because of what it is. You may think differently, but there are also people who think that it's perfectly alright to steal from others and I'm not going to accept that either simply because someone else's opinion is different from mine.

[Adolf Hitler]

The point is that abortion is murder. This is not something that I can just accept. It needs to be outlawed because of what it is. You may think differently, but there are also people who think that it's perfectly alright to steal from others and I'm not going to accept that either simply because someone else's opinion is different from mine.

abortion, yes it is murder, and it sucks that it has to come down to abortion, but some people need to die, such as:
1.Niggers
2.beaners
3.towel heads/sand niggers
4.gooks
5.faggots
6.and, oh yeah, jews

[beelzebub]

You may think differently, but there are also people who think that it's perfectly alright to steal from others and I'm not going to accept that either simply because someone else's opinion is different from mine.


This issue is more complicated than just stealing or even murder. When dealing with abortion you have to take in consideration that you are dealing with two interconnected ententies.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

This issue is more complicated than just stealing or even murder. When dealing with abortion you have to take in consideration that you are dealing with two interconnected ententies.

How is it more complicated than murder? It's different from other forms of murder, but no more complicated. Without murdering the extra entity both will still survive. (I know this isn't always the case, but it so often is and that is the point of the argument against murder). You know exactly when the entities will separate and we have outstanding methods to make this as comfortable for all involved as possible. It's not complicated to keep them together. The extra complication comes when you try to pull them apart. Until this can happen without the death of another human it should be outlawed.

[beelzebub]

How is it more complicated than murder?

Because it involved a fetus inside a human. This human has rights and the fetus does not.


It's not complicated to keep them together.

It is when you force someone to do what they dont want to do.


Until this can happen without the death of another human it should be outlawed.

Thats you opinion. Obviously smarter people though different and made it legal in this case.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Because it involved a fetus inside a human. This human has rights and the fetus does not.

The fetus is human too, it should have rights just as much as the mother does.



It is when you force someone to do what they dont want to do.

If she didn't want to do it, then she should have thought of that before she decided to do the act to start the entire argument. Speaking of forcing someone to do what they don't want to, do you think an unborn baby wants to die? That's forcing them to do something much more extreme than forcing a woman to let the baby she decided to create grow inside of her for nine months.





Thats you opinion. Obviously smarter people though different and made it legal in this case.

The fact that you agree with them shows that they can't be smarter people. It has been argued by uncountable people how stupid lawmakers often are.

[beelzebub]

The fetus is human too, it should have rights just as much as the mother does.

Yeah,... well it doesnt! Its not an independent organism.


If she didn't want to do it, then she should have thought of that before she decided to do the act to start the entire argument. Speaking of forcing someone to do what they don't want to, do you think an unborn baby wants to die?

I agree. I think that she should have though of that before. Fetus' rights... doesn't HAVE ANY. I am positive it doesn't know want from need anyway.


The fact that you agree with them shows that they can't be smarter people. It has been argued by uncountable people how stupid lawmakers often are.

Yeah... and aren't you wanting to make a new law? ha haha ha ahahahah ha!

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Yeah,... well it doesnt! Its not an independent organism.



I agree. I think that she should have though of that before. Fetus' rights... doesn't HAVE ANY. I am positive it doesn't know want from need anyway.

Any child under three could be argued as not an independant organism becuase it is unable to attain what it needs on its own without the help of someone. And what is worth more in our society, want or need? I believe your answer will refute your argument.

[beelzebub]

Any child under three could be argued as not an independant organism becuase it is unable to attain what it needs on its own without the help of someone. And what is worth more in our society, want or need? I believe your answer will refute your argument.

When I say independent I mean not physically attached (ie via the placenta)

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

When I say independent I mean not physically attached (ie via the placenta)

Well, it still is a human...attached or not. And my argument stands, until medical science is able to sustain a human life after it has been detached from this necessary connection, a woman should have to go through with the pregnancy until birth at the least.

[beelzebub]

Well, it still is a human...attached or not. And my argument stands, until medical science is able to sustain a human life after it has been detached from this necessary connection, a woman should have to go through with the pregnancy until birth at the least.

Well say that all you may. That is not what is happening ... because ... we tried it that way and people (mostly women) didn't like us telling her what she HAS TO DO. I think that the way things are now is perfectly fine.

I whole heartedly agree that you should have the right to encourage people not to have an abortion. [Without standing in picket-lines in front of a clinic].

I whole-heartedly believe that we should not impose our will on other good citizen's body. I do not want to take that first baby step towards total control, big brother and/or fascism.

I want these rights in our hands. Let us make the decisions.

[Nobody]

you know what 1 out every 3 women are raped
And did you know that one out of every three people is ugly? I can prove that! If you look to the left, and you look to the right, and you don't see them, then guess what? So sorry, its that drinking thing.

[tommygun]

hahahahahahaha

[melanie]

that is just so gross, suctioning the brain. that is outright killing, deliberate unhumane killing of an innocent..

[Professor Penis]

So, who cares? You have to do what you have to do. If it's abortion, then so be it. Melanie, you have been listining to too many rumors. They do not suction the brain out! That is fucking hearsay! And YOU fell for it, hook, line, and sinker.

[Professor Penis]

Where did you hear that bullshit? It ain't so! That's not the way it is done.

[melanie]

i beg to differ Professor. that is what they really do in performing the partial birth abortion.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

I whole-heartedly believe that we should not impose our will on other good citizen's body. I do not want to take that first baby step towards total control, big brother and/or fascism.

I want these rights in our hands. Let us make the decisions.


So then we should not do anything to another person's body even though he's running around on a killing spree and causing bodily damage to him is the only way to stop him? Some of these rights that you hold dear need to be controlled and in some cases removed for the reason of allowing EVERYBODY as much rights to their own body as possible.

[Paisleyspeaker]

With our current drug laws we have already crossed that threshold, and for lesser reasons. But I belive there are things short of changing the laws that would help alleviate the problem. Most of us will agree that abortion isn't a nice thing, we all, pro-life, and pro-choice, wish there were fewer abortions. It seems to me the crux of the debate is who's rights are more important the mother or the unborn. We could improve the dialouge a great deal by focusing on responsibilites instead of rights. We all know where babies come from, other than rape, there is no excuse. If you are not grown up enough to use protection, and not have sex if you don't have it, you are not adult enough to be having sex sixteen or sixty. I haven't read the legislation , but dearly hope that they made allowances for the situations that Buzz was refering to (major health issues). As gruesome as this procedure is I would hope that most doctors would refuse on ethical reasons. I know a few greedy bastards would do anything for a buck, but I think most would not.

[General Septem]

Some of these rights that you hold dear need to be controlled and in some cases removed for the reason of allowing EVERYBODY as much rights to their own body as possible.

In the same way, there are restrictions that need to be lifted on some things as well.

Trying to put an end to abortion is not about control. If someone wanted to do that, they'd take our guns away first. What we're trying to do is put an end to people killing each other.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

It seems to me the crux of the debate is who's rights are more important the mother or the unborn.


It's just whose rights are more important, but which right is more of an obomination to cross. It's obvious that a person's life is more important than a nine month change in her life is much more important. The problem is that some people see an unborn baby as so much less of a person than a grown woman that they feel they can twist the importance of the rights of the two so far that 9 months of change becomes worth more than a lifetime of existance.

[Paisleyspeaker]

It is more than just a nine month experience. In our culture the ultimate responsiblity for children falls on the mother. I am not discounting the importance of fathers. But people are imperfect and not all fathers stick around. And a fathers emotional connection isn't as immediate as a mothers. A woman when she is considering such things is thinking of the lifetime commitment she is making. Even if she opts for adoption she will think of what she is missing. I know the same is true for many woman who choose abortion too. Which is why I am a huge advocate for never putting yourself in that position in the first place.

[beelzebub]

It's just whose rights are more important, but which right is more of an obomination to cross.

I understand typos... but "obomination" you really though that it was spelled with an "o". the letter "a" is too far away.


It's obvious that a person's life is more important than a nine month change in her life is much more important.

That thing is not a person. (the following from wikipedia)
A person is defined by philosophers as a being who is in possession of a range of psychological capacities that are regarded as both necessary and sufficient to fulfill the requirements of personhood. These are, in general, that it is capable of reasoning, that it is self-conscious, and that it has an identity that persists through time.

A fetus, as far as we know does not occur in the fetal stage.


The problem is that some people see an unborn baby as so much less of a person than a grown woman that they feel they can twist the importance of the rights of the two so far that 9 months of change becomes worth more than a lifetime of existance.

Thats her choice. Its her body not yours.

[General Septem]

I understand typos... but "obomination" you really though that it was spelled with an "o". the letter "a" is too far away.

...and you really thought it was Wickipedia.


That thing is not a person. (the following from wickipedia)
A person is defined by philosophers as a being who is in possession of a range of psychological capacities that are regarded as both necessary and sufficient to fulfill the requirements of personhood. These are, in general, that it is capable of reasoning, that it is self-conscious, and that it has an identity that persists through time.

Well shit, you read it on Wikipedia so it must be true. You know what I read on Wikipedia? "[Loretta Schrijver] had breast enhancement surgery in 2004, and subsequently in 2005 she was acclaimed the most popular news anchor in the Netherlands in a survey". In fact, I put it there, and nobody noticed and reverted it until OVER A MONTH LATER.

When you've got lives at stake, you need something a little more verifiable than Wikipedia.

Even if a fetus is not a "person", he or she is still undeniably a human being. Our genes don't change at birth.


Thats her choice. Its her body not yours.

It's not her body. It's the fetus's body. If she doesn't like it, too fucking bad.

[beelzebub]

...and you really thought it was Wickipedia.

That was not directed towards you. What does wikipedia have to do with BBQ misspellings? Stupid!

I use wikipedia because I aligned myself to its definition in this case. I looked up the word on other sources be did not agree or they were not as comprehensive as I liked.


It's not her body. It's the fetus's body. If she doesn't like it, too fucking bad.

Well it’s not too bad. ABORTIONS ARE PERFORMED EVERY FUCKING DAY you troll. Just because you don’t like it doesn't mean that everyone has to follow!
And it is her body. That little parasite is a part of her body and she has the right to do what ever she pleases with it (including getting rid of it) and that is the way it is.

[General Septem]

That was not directed towards you. What does wikipedia have to do with BBQ misspellings? Stupid!

Because you misspelled it, you dumbass. You had to go and say "LOL U MISSPELLED ABOMINATION" yet in the very next paragraph you misspelled Wikipedia, which is a lot easier to spell than abomination.


I use wikipedia because I aligned myself to its definition in this case. I looked up the word on other sources be did not agree or they were not as comprehensive as I liked.

Just because you agree with it or because it's comprehensible doesn't make it verifiable. How do I know you're not the one who put your little exerpt there into the article in the first place?

[beelzebub]

You had to go and say "LOL U MISSPELLED ABOMINATION" yet in the very next paragraph you misspelled Wikipedia, which is a lot easier to spell than abomination.

I would have to say that EXCERPT is a hell of a lot easer to spell then ANY of the other words you idiot!
Oh sure GS that’s what happened. I think I know what happened to my Wikipedia.


Just because you agree with it or because it's comprehensible doesn't make it verifiable. How do I know you're not the one who put your little exerpt there into the article in the first place?

Just because you disagree doesn’t make it wrong either! I would say that the definition that I have seen in Wikipedia is better than anything your pea brain could muster.

[General Septem]

Just because you disagree doesn’t make it wrong either! I would say that the definition that I have seen in Wikipedia is better than anything your pea brain could muster.
I don't care who agrees or disagrees, I'm just saying Wikipedia is not a verifiable source because anyone can edit it. I go there for a lot of things myself, but when I'm bringing that information to a debate, it's not a verifiable source.

Either way, it doesn't really matter, because you were talking about personhood. I'm not talking about personhood; I'm talking about human life, and protecting it at any stage of development.

[Paisleyspeaker]

Even though I think it is strange coming from me, I must add something to all of this. A fetus is more than just a part of a womans body, it is also half it's father as well. My husband is pro-life, and he often says that fathers get short shrift in these discussions. When we were expecting, he didn't say that I was pregnant, we were pregnant. If I had had an abortion, in his eyes I would have been killing his child, taking something away from him. We all want fathers to stand up and do the right thing, we really need to stop discounting their roles and importence. We say it is important you do this or that, but you don't have a right to say whether your child gets to live. I guess it goes back to fornmication and responsibility. If a woman isn't ready to deal with the consequences of her actions, she really doesn't need to be having sex. And truthfully she really isn't ready to have a child either. Most pro-lifers in the US would make provisions for rape, and unexpected heath problems, though there are those in Europe who would let a woman die before they let her ahve an abortion , and that is simply barbaric.

[beelzebub]

Even though I think it is strange coming from me, I must add something to all of this. A fetus is more than just a part of a womans body, it is also half it's father as well.

I disagree a bit. Technically the all the fetus’s body comes from the Mother. The father contribution is one half of one cell's nuclear DNA. The mother contributes more than half of the total DNA because she gives the fetus the mitochondrial DNA. While the father’s contribution can control 1/2 of the development instructions the mother contributes 100% of the growth. This is because she is the sole provider of the building blocks of life.

So I believe that the mother has more choice in the matter than the father.

Since the fetus is connected to the mother, it is inside the mother and it cannot survive outside the mother’s body I believe that the fetus should be considered a part of her body.


If a woman isn't ready to deal with the consequences of her actions, she really doesn't need to be having sex. And truthfully she really isn't ready to have a child either.

True, but I don't think that it is our responsibility to force the responsibility of this result on her if there is another way to stop it.

[Paisleyspeaker]

True, but I don't think that it is our responsibility to force the responsibility of this result on her if there is another way to stop it.

that is precisly why I advocate a better approach to birth control, and I don't think that we should reverse Roe v. Wade. This is essentially a social problem , and needs a social solution. Like insurance companies reall actually covering birth control. I waited for years for them to cover the pill, then when they finally added in to my prescription plan, it cost three dollars more than if I didn't use my insurance card. I also think that condoms should be givin out in schools and other places too.

[General Septem]

This is because she is the sole provider of the building blocks of life.

The only thing the mother provides is nutrients. You know, the same thing you get from the food you eat. Does our food contribute to 100% of our growth? No, it doesn't contribute to any of our growth - it merely fuels our own growth mechanisms.


True, but I don't think that it is our responsibility to force the responsibility of this result on her if there is another way to stop it.

If you can stop it without directly and deliberately killing the fetus, be my guest.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

beelzebub, I have a hypothetical situation for you. Let's say that you and I are stranded on a desert island. You're legs broke when the plane crashed and you have no means for getting simple amenities in order to survive, while I am fully capable of doing it for you. We know that a rescue plane will arrive in a couple of weeks, but you still need me to provide you with food and shelter until they arrive. The thing is, I'm sick and tired of listening to your incessant whining and bitching about how everything was my fault because I crashed the plane and how I'm not getting you everything that you need well enough for you. The island is too small for me to get anywhere far enough away where I won't still be bothered by your crying and I don't have the patience to simply wait for you to die without my help. Do I then have the right to kill you?

[beelzebub]

beelzebub, I have a hypothetical situation for you. ....... Do I then have the right to kill you?

No, but you do have the right to stop supporting me.

I know where you are going with this. Unfortunately this is a poor comparison for abortion. On the island, I am not living inside of you. I am not a part of your body.

[beelzebub]

that is precisly why I advocate a better approach to birth control, and I don't think that we should reverse Roe v. Wade. This is essentially a social problem , and needs a social solution. Like insurance companies reall actually covering birth control. I waited for years for them to cover the pill, then when they finally added in to my prescription plan, it cost three dollars more than if I didn't use my insurance card. I also think that condoms should be givin out in schools and other places too.

I totally agree. I think we (including those again abortion) should work to insure preventive measures to abortion (e.g. prophylactics and Emergency Contraception).

I see all these "ANTI-CHOICE" people screaming for the rights of the fetus, but doing nothing for the orphan children.

[General Septem]

I totally agree. I think we (including those again abortion) should work to insure preventive measures to abortion (e.g. prophylactics and Emergency Contraception).
Oh, come now. A smart man like yourself knows that contraceptive pills prevent an already fertilized embryo from implanting on the endometrial wall, thus killing the embryo. So those against abortion who support contraceptive pills are either hypocrites or don't know better.

[beelzebub]

Oh, come now. A smart man like yourself knows that contraceptive pills prevent an already fertilized embryo from implanting on the endometrial wall, thus killing the embryo.

Oh come on now, an uneducated boy like you should know better then to tell me about embryology. At that stage it is NOT an embryo. It is a morula. The embryo only develops after implantation.

If it is a separate individual and not in need of the mother then it will survive on it's own outside the womb.

[General Septem]

Oh come on now, an uneducated boy like you should know better then to tell me about embryology. At that stage it is NOT an embryo. It is a morula. The embryo only develops after implantation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo

Animals: The embryo of a vertebrate is defined as the organism between the first division of the zygote (a fertilized ovum) until it becomes a fetus. An embryo is called a fetus at a more advanced stage of development and up until birth or hatching. In humans, this is from the eighth week of gestation.

[beelzebub]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embryo

Animals: The embryo of a vertebrate is defined as the organism between the first division of the zygote (a fertilized ovum) until it becomes a fetus. An embryo is called a fetus at a more advanced stage of development and up until birth or hatching. In humans, this is from the eighth week of gestation.

Wow, you know how to look stuff up! How special.

1.5 - 3 days post-ovulation: The zygote now begins to cleave, with each division occurring into two cells called blastomeres. The zygote's first cell division begins a series of divisions, with each division occurring approximately every twenty hours.

When cell division ungenerated about sixteen cells, the ZYGOTE BECOMES A MORULA (mulberry shaped). It leaves the fallopian tube and enters the uterine cavity three to four days after fertilization.

4 days post-ovulation
The MORULA enters the uterine cavity. Cell division continues, and a cavity known as a blastocele forms in the center of the morula. Cells flatten and compact on the inside of the cavity. With the appearance of the cavity in the center, THE ENTIRE STRUCTURE IS NOW CALLED A BLASTOCYST.

7 - 12 days post-ovulation
Trophoblast cells engulf and destroy cells of the uterine lining creating blood pools, both stimulating new capillaries to grow and foretelling the growth of the placenta. The inner cell mass divides, rapidly forming a two-layered disc. THE TOP LAYER OF CELLS WILL BECOME THE EMBRYO and amniotic cavity, while the lower cells will become the yolk sac.


Yes, top 2%. HYPOCRITE - you chastised me for using Wikipedia and then turn around and use it as if it were 100% fact. What an idiot.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

No, but you do have the right to stop supporting me.

I know where you are going with this. Unfortunately this is a poor comparison for abortion. On the island, I am not living inside of you. I am not a part of your body.


Why does it make a difference whether or not you are inside of me? On the island you are constantly inside of my head, that's bad enough. Killing you is the only remedy I can conceive.

[General Septem]

Yes, top 2%. HYPOCRITE - you chastised me for using Wikipedia and then turn around and use it as if it were 100% fact. What an idiot.
Ah yes, but you were using it to try and prove philosophical, controversial, and/or inconclusive statements. What we're talking about here is something that can be verified: a word with a defiite definition. Or as the case may be, several definitions. There's the strict medical definition, and then there's the practical definition. For example, the "arm" would never be called that if the patient is on the operating table.

If you want to split hairs, go ahead, but it won't help your case any. You know what I mean, and there's no denying that the implantation stage occurs after fertilization. Or are you going to hollow-core on us now?

[beelzebub]

Ah yes, but you were using it to try and prove philosophical, controversial, and/or inconclusive statements. What we're talking about here is something that can be verified: a word with a defiite definition. Or as the case may be, several definitions. There's the strict medical definition, and then there's the practical definition. For example, the "arm" would never be called that if the patient is on the operating table.

If you want to split hairs, go ahead, but it won't help your case any. You know what I mean, and there's no denying that the implantation stage occurs after fertilization. Or are you going to hollow-core on us now?

You do this all the time. When the tables are turned you whine and cry. If you are going to dish it out you have to take it.

Anyway, this is not splitting hairs. There are reasons we call something by particular names. In this case there are distinctly different things:
One called the morula.
One called the embryo.

[General Septem]

You do this all the time. When the tables are turned you whine and cry. If you are going to dish it out you have to take it.

Hahaha, whine and cry? Hahaa. Hahahahahahaha.


Anyway, this is not splitting hairs. There are reasons we call something by particular names. In this case there are distinctly different things:

"We" meaning people like you who use obscure words to try and portray the illusion of intelligence but at the same time completely lack any semblance of cognitive abilities?


One called the morula.
One called the embryo.

And both human. After birth, we have infant, baby, toddler, child, pubescant, young adult, adult, and grandma. And it's all the same bullshit.

[beelzebub]

"We" meaning people like you who use obscure words to try and portray the illusion of intelligence but at the same time completely lack any semblance of cognitive abilities?

Oh wow, that statement really helped your side of the argument.

"We" = the people who study and know Biology. You know the science of life?

I am not the one who refuses to distinguish between morula and a embryo. You are just plain ignorant and angry that I called you on it. I don’t hold that against you. I am 1000x more versed in Biology than you are. I just think that you might want to think twice before challenging me in Biology.

[General Septem]

I am not the one who refuses to distinguish between morula and a embryo. You are just plain ignorant and angry that I called you on it. I don’t hold that against you. I am 1000x more versed in Biology than you are. I just think that you might want to think twice before challenging me in Biology.

I'm not. I don't question your knowledge of the subject.

I'm just saying, if I ask for a Kleenex, don't give me that "all I have is Puffs" bullshit.

[beelzebub]

I'm not. I don't question your knowledge of the subject. I'm just saying, if I ask for a Kleenex, don't give me that "all I have is Puffs" bullshit.

GS, I understand that it may appear that way but they really are distinctly different stages of development. Its like you asking for a kleenex and I say all I have is wood fibers.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

GS, I understand that it may appear that way but they really are distinctly different stages of development. Its like you asking for a kleenex and I say all I have is wood fibers.


No, it's like a Texan asking for a coke when he wants root beer, and instead of following logic from your knowledge of the society and asking what kind of coke he wants, you intentionally hand him a Coca Cola just to create extra conflict.

Now, why have you not answered my question?

[beelzebub]

Now, why have you not answered my question?

I was ignoring you.


Why does it make a difference whether or not you are inside of me? On the island you are constantly inside of my head, that's bad enough. Killing you is the only remedy I can conceive.

If it is a matter of you dying or me, then kill me and live.
If it is a matter of your mental state, then kill me and live.

If it is a matter of survival, then no one can blame you because you'll keep your mouth shut.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

If it is a matter of you dying or me, then kill me and live.
If it is a matter of your mental state, then kill me and live.

If it is a matter of survival, then no one can blame you because you'll keep your mouth shut.


Try again, with better reasoning. It's not a matter of life or death. It's simply a matter of me not wanting to have to live with you for the next few weeks and the only way to avoid that is to kill you. Do you thinnk that I have the right to?

[General Septem]

GS, I understand that it may appear that way but they really are distinctly different stages of development. Its like you asking for a kleenex and I say all I have is wood fibers.

And that may be important to you, but it's not to me. If we were to reverse our roles, it's kind of like if you said something about an Athlon chip, and instead of responding to your post, all I said was that it was an Athlon XP, not an Athlon. Those are two very distinct processors, which is why they're named differently. But your post had been about processors in general, in which case it doesn't matter if the chip in question was an Intel 8086 or an Athlon FX-62. I might say something like "It was actually a such-and-such," but then I'd move on and actually respond to your post.

Whereas in my case, I said "contraceptive pills harden the endometrial wall which kills an already fertilized embryo", and all that got into your head was the fact that I said embryo.

[beelzebub]

And that may be important to you, but it's not to me. If we were to reverse our roles, it's kind of like if you said something about bla bla bla ...Whereas in my case, I said "contraceptive pills harden the endometrial wall which kills an already fertilized embryo", and all that got into your head was the fact that I said embryo.

I strive to use proper terminology.

I understand your point. Prior to this posting we were in the midst of a word war. You had attacked me I attacked back. Truce on that crap (again?).

Now... So you think that drug inhibition of the blastocyst's adherent to the endometrial wall is akin to abortion?

Therefore preventing sperm from entering the womb is the same?

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Try again, with better reasoning. It's not a matter of life or death. It's simply a matter of me not wanting to have to live with you for the next few weeks and the only way to avoid that is to kill you. Do you thinnk that I have the right to?


The question in this post was aimed at you beelzebub. Are you avoiding answering my questions because you are realizing that my logic is sound? Or maybe you just haven't had enough time to put together some twisted reasoning that avoids answering the actual question?

[General Septem]

Now... So you think that drug inhibition of the blastocyst's adherent to the endometrial wall is akin to abortion?

Yes, because the blastocyst or whatever you want to call it is already a week old human being. All of the scientific benchmarks for an organism being alive begin with the fertilization of the egg. Therefore, preventing one from implanting on the endometrial wall, thereby killing it, would be unacceptable to anyone who was truely against abortion.


Therefore preventing sperm from entering the womb is the same?

It's not the same, but it's not much better.

[beelzebub]

The question in this post was aimed at you beelzebub. Are you avoiding answering my questions because you are realizing that my logic is sound? Or maybe you just haven't had enough time to put together some twisted reasoning that avoids answering the actual question?

BBQ - I don’t have to respond whenever you write a post. I take my time and respond if I want and when I want. Lately you have become a drag. I think your logic is weak.


RE: It's not a matter of life or death. It's simply a matter of me not wanting to have to live with you for the next few weeks and the only way to avoid that is to kill you. Do you think that I have the right to?

No I do not think that you have a right to do that.

[General Septem]

No I do not think that you have a right to do that.
Well how is that different from abortion?

[beelzebub]

Well how is that different from abortion?

There are two separate people in his example.

Abortion involves ONE person and choices over her body.

[General Septem]

There are two separate people in his example.

Abortion involves ONE person and choices over her body.
That's where the real problem lies, though. I do not believe abortion involves one person. I believe it involves two people - one person mildly inconvenienced, and the other person blind, helpless, and unable to fight for his or herself.

The difference between you and me is that I'm going by scientific, rock-solid evidence. A human being is alive from the minute the sperm meets the egg.

You, on the other hand, present inconclusive philosophical debates as to whether or not the unborn baby deserves the inalienable human right to life. You may on occasion present scientific facts such as the inability to survive outside the womb, but you've yet to prove that this has anything to do with a human being's right to live.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

No I do not think that you have a right to do that.


In that case, you need to drop the argument of whether or not the child is able to survive outside the womb, it holds all of the same circumstances as our example.

That leaves the only real question to be, does the child deserve the same rights to live that any other person is guaranteed? You don't think so, why?

[beelzebub]

In that case, you need to drop the argument of whether or not the child is able to survive outside the womb, it holds all of the same circumstances as our example.


No it does not hold the same circumstances. As I said, there is a BIG difference between the two.

You example is of 2 separate people.

I believe that the fetus is a part of the woman's body.

I use the FACT that the fetus cannot survive outside the womb as evidence that the fetus is dependent on the mother.

[beelzebub]

That's where the real problem lies, though. I do not believe abortion involves one person. I believe it involves two people - one person mildly inconvenienced, and the other person blind, helpless, and unable to fight for his or herself.

What are you trying to prove with that sob story?

I see the most important right for individuals is to have control over their body. I know that the fetus is attached and a part of the woman’s body. This is commonly known and well documented in science. It is not a philosophical leap. It's common sense. Since the fetus is inside the woman’s body WE cannot tell her what to do.

We are looking at the issue from two perspectives. I look at the rights of an individual. You are looking at the rights of the fetus (currently doesn't have any).

In this circumstance I say the woman's control over her body is more important to society.


The difference between you and me is that I'm going by scientific, rock-solid evidence. A human being is alive from the minute the sperm meets the egg.

Don’t be silly, I never said that it is not living. "Rock Hard" - ohh GS you are so smart! Gimmie a break!


You, on the other hand, present inconclusive philosophical debates as to whether or not the unborn baby deserves the inalienable human right to life. You may on occasion present scientific facts such as the inability to survive outside the womb, but you've yet to prove that this has anything to do with a human being's right to live.

GS, that’s your opinion of my debate. I totally see my logic and I am not alone. You thinking is convoluted with religious influences.

I thought that we were going to try and stick to the debating. You keep attacking my position without any logical merit. Broad statements like “present inconclusive philosophical debates" are inappropriate. You, who are in an adversarial role to me, should find specific examples and work on them instead of broad sweeping judgments. All that does is irritate me. If you want we can go back to cat fighting.

[General Septem]

GS, that’s your opinion of my debate. I totally see my logic and I am not alone. You thinking is convoluted with religious influences.

I thought that we were going to try and stick to the debating. You keep attacking my position without any logical merit. Broad statements like “present inconclusive philosophical debates" are inappropriate. You, who are in an adversarial role to me, should find specific examples and work on them instead of broad sweeping judgments. All that does is irritate me. If you want we can go back to cat fighting.

Broad sweeping judgments is exactly what you do, though. My arguments make complete logical sense to me as well. You say things like "the baby can't live outside the womb", which is true, but to say this proves that the mother has control over its life is merely an opinion.

My thinking is not convoluted my religious influences. To me, this is no different than regluations against people murdering each other. Because I don't see any difference here. Sure, the unborn baby has his needs, but we also have our needs.

If we can't respect our basic rights as a species, how can we respect each other as fellow human beings?

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

No it does not hold the same circumstances. As I said, there is a BIG difference between the two.

You example is of 2 separate people.

I believe that the fetus is a part of the woman's body.

I use the FACT that the fetus cannot survive outside the womb as evidence that the fetus is dependent on the mother.


I gave circumstances that you are dependant on me, and you say that I still don't have the right to kill you. So if that is your stance then DEPENDANCE cannot be an argument to support your cause. We will discuss whether or not the woman and child are two separate people once we take care of this issue. If we don't come to an agreement on one portion of the argument at a time, it will (as it has up until now,) continue to senselesly circle around the same issues without any conclusion.

[beelzebub]

I gave circumstances that you are dependant on me, and you say that I still don't have the right to kill you. So if that is your stance then DEPENDANCE cannot be an argument to support your cause.

I did not use dependence as a reason for a woman's right to terminate the fetus. The dependence of the fetus on the mother was used as yet another aspect of it being part of her body.

The facts are:
The fetus is inside the mother
It is dependent on the mother for all nutrients necessary for life
It is physically connected to the mother.

Therefore it is a part of her body.

Therefore it is not the same as one person killing another individual.

[General Septem]

The facts are:
The fetus is inside the mother
It is dependent on the mother for all nutrients necessary for life
It is physically connected to the mother.

Therefore it is a part of her body.

You see, that's the thing. You state facts, you do good, but at the last minute you take an immediate wrong-hand turn into "what part of your ass did you pull that from?" territory.

Your first three cited facts are indeed true. The last line is completely speculatory.

Now, you could go about this logically and compare the three facts you cited with the state of other body parts that we already know to be a part of a person's body, like one's arm, but that's kind of where we run into a wall since when we compare an unborn baby to one's arm the two are very different.

Even if an abortion was like cutting off your arm, when was the last time that was actually a good thing? When was the last time people were encouraged to cut off their arm? When was the last time someone decided they didn't want their arm anymore, cut it off, and wasn't subsequently committed to a psychiatric institute for their own protection?

[beelzebub]

Your first three cited facts are indeed true. The last line is completely speculatory.

It’s obvious that the fetus is a part of her body. I don’t understand your resistance to this.

Characteristics of parts of your body:
They are attached to you. They work with other parts of your body. They cannot survive outside the body (unless they are put into man made environments).

The fetus does all of these.


Even if an abortion was like cutting off your arm, when was the last time that was actually a good thing? When was the last time people were encouraged to cut off their arm? When was the last time bla bla bla

You are right. However people have been encouraged to cut off their arm when it is damaged. People have all kinds of parts taken out of their body for medical and cosmetic reasons.

AND - people decide to do these things or not. THEY DECIDE not you for them.

[General Septem]

It’s obvious that the fetus is a part of her body. I don’t understand your resistance to this.

Characteristics of parts of your body:
They are attached to you. They work with other parts of your body. They cannot survive outside the body (unless they are put into man made environments).

The fetus does all of these.

The fetus may do all of those, but there are a lot of other characteristics of part of one's body that the fetus doesn't exhibit.

A fetus pumps his or her own blood.
A fetus moves his or her own muscles based on impulses, however voluntary or otherwise, from his or her brain.
A fetus has a separate DNA from the mother, whereas your arm still has the same DNA as you do.
A fetus, if removed from the mother, will die of exposure and starvation. The tissue in your arm, when severed, dies from lack of oxygen and nutrients.
The fetus will eventually grow to a point where he or she can survive the harsh atmospheric environment and feed by his or her self, and thus is no longer in need of the mother's protection and supply of nutrients. This fact right here should remove any doubt in any reasonable person's mind that a fetus is not merely part of the mother's body, as your arm or leg will never grow to a point where it can survive by itself.

You have provided three facts that point to, but not prove, the notion that a fetus is part of the mother. I have provided five to the contrary.

There is an entire list of characteristics that every part of your body exhibits pertaining its relationship to you. Seeing as how for something to be a part of your body, it must include all of these characteristics, it's only logical to assume that the abscence of even one of these characteristics entirely disqualifies it from being part of your body.

We're talking about the relationship between a mother and a fetus and the relationship between you and your arm here. There are so many differences between these two relationships that I can't even believe someone with a degree in biology would find the notion of equating the two relationships even remotely plausible if not downright laughable.

[Ape-Shit]

[QUOTE=beelzebub]It’s obvious that the fetus is a part of her body. I don’t understand your resistance to this.


A fetus is just that, a Fetus. It remains a fetus until the developement stages in the eighth week.

In laymen terms, It ani't shit 'till it is developed.

Bla Bla Bla, Bla Bla Bla, Oh! My!

And Yes Beelzebub, it is part of HER BODY.....!

[beelzebub]

A fetus is just that, a Fetus. It remains a fetus until the developement stages in the eighth week.
In laymen terms, It ani't shit 'till it is developed.
Bla Bla Bla, Bla Bla Bla, Oh! My!
And Yes Beelzebub, it is part of HER BODY.....!

RIGHT ON APE! You ROCK!

Finally a cohort! I am very happy that you are here Ape!

[General Septem]

Yeah but you still happen to be both wrong.

[beelzebub]

Yeah but you still happen to be both wrong.

Your conceited OPINION. They are like assholes, everyone has one!

[General Septem]

Your conceited OPINION. They are like assholes, everyone has one!

Keep in mind that this is your opinion as well.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Finally a cohort! I am very happy that you are here Ape!

Yes, a cohort....a word that I've never heard used outside the reference of a crime. And that's just what the two of you are fighting for is to allow a crime to remain legal.

[beelzebub]

Yes, a cohort....a word that I've never heard used outside the reference of a crime.

You are just showing your limited experience.

Cohorts are often used in the education field.

[Ape-Shit]

It seems that some people live in a fantacy state of mind where they think or want to believe that their ways are right. However, in real life the facts are simple and clearly stated. I think thats enough said.

[Ape-Shit]

RIGHT ON APE! You ROCK!

Finally a cohort! I am very happy that you are here Ape!

Thanks Beelzebub, I appreciate that. You Rock Too Man....!

[General Septem]

It seems that some people live in a fantacy state of mind where they think or want to believe that their ways are right. However, in real life the facts are simple and clearly stated. I think thats enough said.

Yeah, and you may want to think about that, because the fact is, a fetus is still a human being. The state of being a human being doesn't matter what you look like or how you think or act, it is a species.

[Ape-Shit]

Why don't you go kill another chicken?

[General Septem]

Why don't you go off about animals again instead of actually responding to my statements?

[Ape-Shit]

Same old same old. A fetus is a fetus. Our Government even said so, so there!

Now, have you ever been to a slaughter house? Does it make you feel happy to inflict pain and suffering on animals? Do you eat what you kill or do you kill it just for sport?

[General Septem]

RE: Same old same old. A fetus is a fetus. Our Government even said so, so there!

A fetus is a fetus, a child is a child, an adult is an adult. But they are all human, and that is an irrefutable biological fact, because one's genetics doesn't change after they're born.


RE: Now, have you ever been to a slaughter house? Does it make you feel happy to inflict pain and suffering on animals? Do you eat what you kill or do you kill it just for sport?

To be honest, I've actually never hunted, but when I do, I intend to eat what I kill.

Do you kill bugs?

[Ape-Shit]

Only in self-defense.

[beelzebub]

It seems that some people live in a fantacy state of mind where they think or want to believe that their ways are right. However, in real life the facts are simple and clearly stated. I think thats enough said.

I know, it is really sad. GS is one of the most ignorant and arrogant on this forum. He has to be always right. He is so narrow he can see his own ignorance.

[General Septem]

He has to be always right.

I don't have to be right anymore than you have to be gay. I just am right. :D

[Ape-Shit]

I don't have to be right anymore than you have to be gay. I just am right. :D

You Are Not Right........! 80% of the time, your ass carries more weight than your mouth. You are hyprocritical in the worlds worst way.

What the Fuck does being Gay have to do with this thread? Plus, who's Fucking business is it on being gay anyway? In General your points of view are just Rubbish. Listen to what you have been saying.

What about this Crap that you say "I just am right", right about what? You haven't been right on anything as I can recall.

You have a lot to learn and a long way to go. I hope you live long enough to be able to see the Fucking Mistakes you are making with your life at this time and the courage to realize your short comings.

Your mouth is like a Gun. Once you open it and shoot it off, you can't retract the words. (You are a complete dip-shit!).

ps: You are only firing blanks.

[beelzebub]

You Are Not Right........! 80% of the time, your ass carries more weight than your mouth. You are hypocritical in the world’s worst way.
What the Fuck does being Gay have to do with this thread? Plus, whose Fucking business is it on being gay anyway? In General your points of view are just Rubbish. Listen to what you have been saying.

He is RIGHT GS that is what I have been saying all along. You talk out your ass. You seek confrontation by using asinine rebuttals. And you validate your arguments with WEAK logic.


What about this Crap that you say "I just am right", right about what? You haven't been right on anything as I can recall.

It is just GS's way of reaffirming his own ego. He is obviously insecure as hell.


You have a lot to learn and a long way to go. I hope you live long enough to be able to see the Fucking Mistakes you are making with your life at this time and the courage to realize your short comings.

And he has many, many short comings like his inability to see the big picture.


Your mouth is like a Gun. Once you open it and shoot it off, you can't retract the words. (You are a complete dip-shit!). ps: You are only firing blanks.

Yes! I agree completely.

[General Septem]

And what does this have to do with abortion? When's the last time BBO, Freakazoid, and I started patting each other on the back and reaffirming why we all don't like you?

[beelzebub]

And what does this have to do with abortion? When's the last time BBO, Freakazoid, and I started patting each other on the back and reaffirming why we all don't like you?

You are a stupid & petty little boy. Grow up!

[General Septem]

I asked you two questions. Do you not have an answer to them?

[beelzebub]

When's the last time BBO, Freakazoid, and I started patting each other on the back and reaffirming why we all don't like you?

Hooooooh group bullying!? As if that makes you right! You need these people to reaffirm yourself? You are pathetic!

[General Septem]

Hooooooh group bullying!? As if that makes you right! You need these people to reaffirm yourself? You are pathetic!

Pathetic? You and Ape-shit are the ones patting each other on the back and talking about how "arrogant" I am.

You still missed my other quesiton. What does this have to do with abortion?

[beelzebub]

Pathetic? You and Ape-shit are the ones patting each other on the back and talking about how "arrogant" I am.
You still missed my other quesiton. What does this have to do with abortion?

You were so busy being an arrogant asshole that your question has escaped the watchable postings (without going back). State it again.

[General Septem]

State it again.

One more time, just for you.

What does this have to do with abortion?

[beelzebub]

One more time, just for you.

What does this have to do with abortion?

Forgive me.. what does what have to with abortion?

[General Septem]

Forgive me.. what does what have to with abortion?
What you and Ape-shit have been talking about the last sixteen posts about how much of an ass I am.

[beelzebub]

What you and Ape-shit have been talking about the last sixteen posts about how much of an ass I am.

Oh... ok well you are the crux of this forums opposition to abortion. You are an ass. By discrediting you we weaken your opposition. It has succeeded. You are nothing but an arrogant ass. Thanks for your help! Without you we would have not succeeded!

[General Septem]

If by calling me an arrogant ass, you think you're "weakening the opposition", the only thing you're doing is admitting it's the only way you can win. :D

[Ape-Shit]

[QUOTE=General Septem the only thing you're doing is admitting it's the only way you can win. :D[/QUOTE]

We've already won, you just won't admit defeat.

Bla Bla bla, Bla Bla Bla.....!

[Ape-Shit]

I know, it is really sad. GS is one of the most ignorant and arrogant on this forum. .

Oh, so very true and oh, so very sad.

[Dakota]

Food for thought:

Has anyone ever stopped to wonder weather one of the many children, who will be aborted tomorrow, might have grown up to find a cure for AIDS??

Think about it ....

[beelzebub]

Food for thought:.... bla bla bla

Has anyone ever stopped to wonder whether one of the many children, who will be aborted tomorrow, might have grown up to be a mass murderer??

Think about it ....

[General Septem]

Has anyone ever stopped to wonder whether one of the many children, who will be aborted tomorrow, might have grown up to be a mass murderer??

Think about it ....

Gee, I thought that AIDS thing would hit home for you. Don't you think it's better for one person to cure AIDS and another to become a mass murderer than for both to have been killed before they were born?

[Dakota]

Has anyone ever stopped to wonder whether one of the many children, who will be aborted tomorrow, might have grown up to be a mass murderer??

Think about it ....


Good point, no doubt.
But who are we to say, who should live and shouldn't? Who's an expecting mother to say, that her life is more important than her child's?
When I was pregnant with my baby, I never felt that my life was in any way superior to hers.
Doesn't every baby deserve the chance NOT to grow up to be a mass murderer?

[Ape-Shit]

[QUOTE=Dakota]Good point, no doubt.
But who are we to say, who should live and shouldn't?

The lady or person whom is impregnated has that right prior to the eighth week of developement.

All circumstances are different and the decision rest solely with that person involved. It was your choice to have a child, which you love and care for. It is another story for a child to be born and not wanted.

An unwanted and unloved child is a horrible thing. Think about that!

[beelzebub]

Good point, no doubt. But who are we to say, who should live and shouldn't?

I will say that in this case the person that has the other life living inside her should decide. NOT US!


Who's an expecting mother to say, that her life is more important than her child's?

Yes it is. We should not tell other peoples what they must do with their bodies.


When I was pregnant with my baby, I never felt that my life was in any way superior to hers. Doesn't every baby deserve the chance NOT to grow up to be a mass murderer?

I understand how you feel; however, If we say that no one can choose to have an abortion then we are controlling what someone does with their body. I say to you: try to convince someone of your opinion but you do not have the right to make the choice you see fit for them.

[Dakota]

I obviously can't make any choices for anyone, and thank goodness for that. I'm really not interested in doing so. Believe me, I'm busy enough trying to make the right choices for my own life :o

I would just like to see some more people advocate for the little unborn babies, because that's what they are - they're babies. And it seems that just because they happen to still live within their birthmother's body, they don't get a voice or say, and nobody cares about them. Yes, I get the point that a woman should be able to do to her body whatever she chooses to do - the problem though - with an abortion the mother isn't so much choosing to have something done to her own body, but to the BABY'S body, which is destroying it.
And NO - the mother and the baby are not one and the same. The baby isn't something like an appendix to the mother. It's a person. Two heartbeats, two people!

Did you guys know by the way, that a little baby's heart starts beating only 5 weeks after being conceived ...

Also, someone made a comment to the effect, better kill the child than have it be born and unwanted - nothing easier to solve than that - give it up for adoption, if you really don't want it. I peronally know people who've been desperate for a baby and adopted. What a blessing it was for everyone.

[REPTILE]

DAKOTA!!!!

OMFG!!! I LOOOOOOOOVE YOU! I loved the way you put that

* Dakota - "And NO - the mother and the baby are not one and the same. The baby isn't something like an appendix to the mother. It's a person. Two heartbeats, two people!"

Women SHOULD be able to do as they wish with their bodies, but abortion includes the BABIES body aswell. People don't see that. its two ppl, and only one is capable of making decisions. If you could somehow ask a "fetus"/"baby" if it agreed to an abortion I'm sure it would say something like "FUCK YOU" or "YOU BETTER KILL ME WHILE YOU HAVE THE CHANCE BECAUSE IF I GROW UP IMMA KICK YOUR ASS!"

[Dakota]

DAKOTA!!!!

OMFG!!! I LOOOOOOOOVE YOU! I loved the way you put that

* Dakota - "And NO - the mother and the baby are not one and the same. The baby isn't something like an appendix to the mother. It's a person. Two heartbeats, two people!"

Women SHOULD be able to do as they wish with their bodies, but abortion includes the BABIES body aswell. People don't see that. its two ppl, and only one is capable of making decisions. If you could somehow ask a "fetus"/"baby" if it agreed to an abortion I'm sure it would say something like "FUCK YOU" or "YOU BETTER KILL ME WHILE YOU HAVE THE CHANCE BECAUSE IF I GROW UP IMMA KICK YOUR ASS!"


Thanks Reptile. I really appreciate your support :)

[General Septem]

I will say that in this case the person that has the other life living inside her should decide. NOT US!

No. Not us, not the mother. Nobody decides who lives and who dies. We're not going around making any decisions for anyone, anymore than by saying "murder is wrong", we make decisions for people who would otherwise commit murder.

[REPTILE]

Abortion is FUCKED UP, just get over it.

[Ape-Shit]

If a woman wan'ts to Brush it and Flush it, so be it. It is not my business nor yours. It rest solely with her. After all, she is the one who has to live with the consequences, NOT YOU!

Simply put: It's NYFB

[General Septem]

After all, she is the one who has to live with the consequences, NOT YOU!

Yes, she has to live with the consequences of killing her child just like murderers have to live with the consequences of their actions.

[Ape-Shit]

Its not a child and its not murder and she is only giving it back to God. Let God decide, Not YOU!

ps: Still NYFB

[Dakota]

If a woman wan'ts to Brush it and Flush it, so be it. It is not my business nor yours. It rest solely with her. After all, she is the one who has to live with the consequences, NOT YOU!

Simply put: It's NYFB


First of all - If a child is killed it should be EVERYBODY's business! Not in the sense that everybody should go out and do something about it - PLEASE DON'T!!! - but in the sense that everybody should be outraged at the thought and fact of innocent children being killed!

And what kind of logic is it to say "it's nobody's business because its the woman aborting the child who has to live with the consequences after all"??? (By consequences I assume you mean moral and mental issues she might have afterwards, since there are no legal consequences at this time.)
In essence that means, if someone went to kill my baby, it should be nobody's business either, because its them who will have to live with it. And yet - if someone killed my baby - law enforcement would make it their business, the news would make it their business, and there's a fat chance YOU would also make it your business and be outraged. THANKFULLY!

Of course now comes your whole argument - with abortion, the baby hasn't been born yet. All I can say to that is - SOOOO??? What does it matter whether the baby has been born or not. It's a baby! It's being killed and I have every right to be upset with that.

[Dakota]

Its not a child and its not murder and she is only giving it back to God. Let God decide, Not YOU!

ps: Still NYFB


Wow - no your logic got even more twisted with this one.
Let's take this one step at a time though.

It is a child. As I said before - it is not an appendix to the mother. It's a child whoes heart started beating after 4 to 5 weeks of being conceived. Again - two heartbeats means that there are two people!! As a result - it IS murder.

O.k. - now lets tackel that weird "giving it back to God and letting him decide" thing. Boy that's the most twisted reasoning I've ever heard in regards to this debate.
Partially I agree with you - LET GOD DECIDE!!! PLEASE PEOPLE - LET GOD DECIDE!!!! If he wants that baby to die - IT WILL! No need for an abortion! If He doesn't want you to carry full term and have a baby - YOU WON'T! LET GOD DECIDE - don't go out and decide FOR HIM. Don't decide to give the beautiful child, that He entrusted you, back to him before it ever had a chance to take a breath.

If you say "she's only giving it back to God" you acknowledge that the baby came from God! That's great by the way. I believe that too. I believe every child is a gift from God, wanted, loved and with great purpose - whether its human parents understand any of that or not. But if you agree that the baby was a gift from God - how can you feel that it's okay for the woman who was given that baby to just send it back to Him. Wouldn't you think He gave it to her for a reason? Do you think He gave it to her by mistake, or maybe as something optional - take it or leave it? What attributes do you believe God to have? Does he make mistakes? Does He care?

The God I believe in is Holy! He is almighty, all-knowing, and all-present. He is loving, forgiving. He is also true and faithful. He has never made a mistake, nor will he ever make one. He wants us to live according to His will, and he gives us the ability to get better and better at it. If a woman gets pregnant - it was within his will that a child was conceived. If he wants that child to be with Him before it is born - He will take care of it. Again - no need for an abortion. If not - let the baby live!! Like you said - LET GOD DECIDE!!! NOT YOU - OR ANYBODY!

[Ape-Shit]

First of all - If a child is killed it should be EVERYBODY's business!

Its not a Child!

Not in the sense that everybody should go out and do something about it - PLEASE DON'T!!! - but in the sense that everybody should be outraged at the thought and fact of innocent children being killed!

Its Not an "INNOCENT CHILD BEING KILLED"!

And what kind of logic is it to say "it's nobody's business because its the woman aborting the child who has to live with the consequences after all"??? (By consequences I assume you mean moral and mental issues she might have afterwards, since there are no legal consequences at this time.)

Its her body, her fetus, her decision, "NOT YOURS".

In essence that means, if someone went to kill my baby, it should be nobody's business either,

If you wanted to have an Abortion, so be it. That would be your decision no one elses.
because its them who will have to live with it. It would be you who would have to live with it.

And yet - if someone killed my baby - law enforcement would make it their business, the news would make it their business, and there's a fat chance YOU would also make it your business and be outraged. THANKFULLY!

It someone Killed Your Baby, Yes, I hope the law enforcement would make it their business, however since Abortion is "LEGAL" they won't make it their business if it is a "fetus you are aborting, its not against the law"!

Of course now comes your whole argument - with abortion, the baby hasn't been born yet. All I can say to that is - SOOOO??? What does it matter whether the baby has been born or not.

Its a "FETUS" NOT A BABY....!

It's a baby!

Again,prior to eight weeks its a Fetus not a Baby, Child or whatever.

It's being killed and I have every right to be upset with that.

You have your rights, opinion and if you want to be upset, so be it. That's your right!

A lady who wants to have an Abortion has "her rights" too! Therefore, its NYFB.

[Ape-Shit]

[QUOTE=Dakota]The God I believe in is Holy! He is almighty, all-knowing, and all-present. He is loving, forgiving. He is also true and faithful. He has never made a mistake, nor will he ever make one. He wants us to live according to His will, and he gives us the ability to get better and better at it.QUOTE]

Did you know that the Muslems say the same thing about their God Allah?

Gee..., I'm a little confused. If I asked you, who's God is right, you would say it was yours. If I asked the Muslems, who's God was correct, they would say it was theirs.

I wounder, which one of the Gods is the true one to follow?

I myself like Neptune!

[Ape-Shit]

Abortion is FUCKED UP, just get over it.

YOU ARE 100 PERCENT CORRECT.....!

[REPTILE]

^ Uhh..... Thanks Ape!?

Anyways, seems the only argument you have is either "Its not your business" or "its not a child".

Look Ape, in all respect to you its a "fetus" that is being killed dude. Something that is waiting to emerge and be among the living. Instead people are "playing God" and making decisions on their own as to who should die. If you wanna say I'm forcing my opinion then so be it. ITS FUCKING WRONG, just because something is legal doesn't make it right. Fucked up things happen in this country all the time, some of them are illegal, some are legal. Either way whats wrong is wrong. Its not a womans choice to kill her child, birth is something sacred. If your going to kill an innocent "fetus" whose only crime was developing, then I'll make it my business. Killing it will not make things any easier, women experience a lot of mental stress and insecurity after an abortion.

[REPTILE]

Look, quite simply put, read this.

http://www.afterabortion.info/rape.html

Everyone please read this, its not too long, and VERY interesting.

[Dakota]

Look, quite simply put, read this.

http://www.afterabortion.info/rape.html

Everyone please read this, its not too long, and VERY interesting.


Great website. Thanks for sharing it!

[who897]

I took a dump once that looked like a fetus, I had no problem flushing that bastard down the toilet

[beelzebub]

First of all - If a child is killed it should be EVERYBODY's business!............ And what kind of logic is it to say "it's nobody's business because its the woman aborting the child who has to live with the consequences after all"???

Excuse me but there is a difference between a child and a fetus. Once resides in another human being while the other does not.

Furthermore I believe that the mother has the ultimate decision regarding her body, no one else. The logic behind the pro-choice movement concerns the rights of an individual over his/her body. We do not want society to make those decisions for us or penalize us for doing what we wish to do. The supreme court agrees.

We cannot force a mother that wants an abortion to keep it to term.

GOOD GOING APE!

[beelzebub]

The God I believe in is Holy! He is almighty, all-knowing, and all-present. He is loving, forgiving. He is also true and faithful. He has never made a mistake, nor will he ever make one. He wants us to live according to His will, and he gives us the ability to get better and better at it.QUOTE]

Give me a break. I get sick just reading this bullshit. Obvoiusly you are one of the many who have been brainwashed.

[QUOTE=Ape-Shit]Did you know that the Muslems say the same thing about their God Allah?
Gee..., I'm a little confused. If I asked you, who's God is right, you would say it was yours. If I asked the Muslems, who's God was correct, they would say it was theirs.
I wounder, which one of the Gods is the true one to follow?
I myself like Neptune!

HA HAH AHAHHAA GREAT! I think I prefer Bel...... I dunno why. Perhaps the name?

[Dakota]

Excuse me but there is a difference between a child and a fetus. Once resides in another human being while the other does not.

Furthermore I believe that the mother has the ultimate decision regarding her body, no one else. The logic behind the pro-choice movement concerns the rights of an individual over his/her body. We do not want society to make those decisions for us or penalize us for doing what we wish to do. The supreme court agrees.

We cannot force a mother that wants an abortion to keep it to term.

GOOD GOING APE!


A fetus is a child - an unborn one, but a child - it has a heart, a brain and every other body organ one has after birth - they're not as developed yet, but they're there.
And I agree, a woman should be able to do whatever the hell she wants to do to her body - go head everyone, I don't care one bit - JUST DON'T DO ANYTHING TO THE LITTLE BABY'S BODY, FETUS OR WHATEVER YOU WANNA CALL IT = same difference. Do to yourself whatever you want - the problem with abortion - you're not doing anything to yourself - you're doing it to your baby!!!

[Dakota]

[QUOTE=Dakota]The God I believe in is Holy! He is almighty, all-knowing, and all-present. He is loving, forgiving. He is also true and faithful. He has never made a mistake, nor will he ever make one. He wants us to live according to His will, and he gives us the ability to get better and better at it.QUOTE]

Give me a break. I get sick just reading this bullshit. Obvoiusly you are one of the many who have been brainwashed.



HA HAH AHAHHAA GREAT! I think I prefer Bel...... I dunno why. Perhaps the name?


Whatever dude. There's obviously no point in continuing this discussion. You're clearly not interested in having an intelligent conversation.

[who897]

I don't neccisarly call that little fetus a life yet, cuz what do all intelectual beings have, a survival instinct, and those little buggers don't get the hell out of the way of the needle filled w/ salt or what ever they inject into them to shrivle up and slurp out. You will just about object to anything that you think goes against your religion, and I'm sorry but this country was founded on a princeple of seperation of church and state. If you don't like it, guess what move to Rome, Iran, or Isreal, cuz they still have church and state held closely together. Abortion should be legal, if not, then all you chicks that have periods should have that egg caught injected w/ semen and grown in a test tube somewhere, cuz according to you freakin hippies it's the same thing. Which no one really needs, then again we could always use some more homeless children, starving children, dying children cuz some dingleberry didn't think it would be a good idea to put them outta their missery before they had a chance to have missery. And how many freaking adopted children do you have all you pro life people have?????? Give me a freaking break, I know I aint gonna change your mind but God damn it, yall make absolutly no freaking sence.

They are still an STD

[who897]

Ohh lets also make masterbation illegal for men..........lol.....Good luck

[beelzebub]

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Whatever dude. There's obviously no point in continuing this discussion. You're clearly not interested in having an intelligent conversation.

So I am the one that is not having an intelligent conversation?

You think this was intelligent!?!?!?!?:

The God I believe in is Holy! He is almighty, all-knowing, and all-present. He is loving, forgiving. He is also true and faithful. He has never made a mistake, nor will he ever make one. He wants us to live according to His will, and he gives us the ability to get better and better at it.

I see this as senseless religious babbling.

[Ape-Shit]

Ohh lets also make masterbation illegal for men..........lol.....Good luck

We can't do that Who 897, if we did that it would only make planned parenthood more difficult and then we would have to abort all those unwanted little Bastards.

WoW..! I just got an idea? They should pass a law making masterbation the only means of having sex between two parties. That way, no intercourse sex, no kids, no abortions.

A solution for everything....!

WoW...! You Gota Love it....!

[Ape-Shit]

[QUOTE=REPTILE]^ Uhh..... Thanks Ape!?

Anyways, seems the only argument you have is either "Its not your business" or "its not a child".

You know, the argument of Abortion is just a cover for the issue of individual control. What gives you the right to dictate to anybody, what they can or can not do? Especially with their own body! You stated that you would make it your business when in reality, it is none of your business. I say that it is none of your business, because to me, it is none of your business.

Its very distrubing that we have in our Society people who wish to try to dictate and control the actions of others. I have fought for Freedom, your Freedom and the Freedom of other people in this country to have the ability to make there own choise in life.

Good, bad, right or wrong, its the decision of the individual in the situation at hand, only he/she has to answer for their consequences. Not You!

I guess with that being said, other peoples decisions in life are truely none of your business, they only concern the immediate people involved in the situation. Perhaps you should concentrate on the actions concerning your life and not those of whom you dont know.

As for the fetus,......its just a fetus....."NOT A CHILD".

[REPTILE]

Dedicated to Who897, Beelzebub, Ape-Shit, and a few others whose name I don't remember:

You guys are the biggest group of fucking imbuciles I've ever had the pleasure of debating with. Everything from not giving a shit about human life "flush it away, who gives a shit about an unborn person" to believing that everyone who believes in God is brain washed and full of shit. Im not brainwashed, I follow Jesus, a man who did nothing but good things and helped others. If I'm a fucking "dictator/narrow minded person" because I think its wrong to fuck around with an unborn baby and kill it then SO FUCKING BE IT. You guys are the fucked up, arrogant ass jerk offs; while I'M the one who cares about life a freedom. Freedom is being able to live, NOT having the right to kill, Plain and simple. I dont know how to make it any easier for you narrow minded people to understand. Your just a bunch of new age, Fuck everything only care about yourself type of people, Thats fine I guess. In the end it'll be your ass not mine. There will come a day of judgement, dont cry like little bitches when you realize you were all living in your own false reality.

[beelzebub]

You guys are the biggest group of fucking imbuciles I've ever had the pleasure of debating with. Everything from not giving a shit about human life "flush it away, who gives a shit about an unborn person" to believing that everyone who believes in God is brain washed and full of shit.

Why are you so pissed at us? We are entitled to our position and our beliefs! Just because we don’t value the thing you value doesn’t mean its right for you to call us imbeciles or that we are wrong.


Im not brainwashed, I follow Jesus, a man who did nothing but good things and helped others. If I'm a fucking "dictator/narrow minded person" because I think its wrong to fuck around with an unborn baby and kill it then SO FUCKING BE IT.

Follow your god all you want I don't care. My position is about personal freedom and choice.


You guys are the fucked up, arrogant ass jerk offs; while I'M the one who cares about life a freedom. Freedom is being able to live, NOT having the right to kill, Plain and simple. I don’t know how to make it any easier for you narrow minded people to understand.

Wow... having a bad day? You think that you are the only one with a clear vision? That type of mentality breeds fascism, dictatorships and other totalitarian forms of rule. You think that is cool?


Your just a bunch of new age, Fuck everything only care about yourself type of people, Thats fine I guess. In the end it'll be your ass not mine. There will come a day of judgement, dont cry like little bitches when you realize you were all living in your own false reality.

No problem. It’s obvious you have nothing further to say. You are just an angry little person with no logical recourse. I promise you I will stand to any “judgement day “and stand proud that I stood for what I believe in. If the “judge” finds me to be wrong then so be it. I would not care for “its” form of correct anyway.

[REPTILE]

Its clear that you dont care for "it's" form of correct, no need to say that. And you won't "stand proud" of what you stood for, you'll regret rejecting a God that wants to love you and wants you to love him aswell. You see, its sort of a "family" type thing between God and us. Sure I'm a dictator, a facist and any other evil, narrow minded idiot because I think its wrong to kill unborn babies, well fuck it. Guess I should take over the world then and make things my way. A world were illegal drugs, illiteracy, murder, violence, andpersecution is not tollerated. And those who break these laws get the help they need in order to help them become good, loving citizens of the world. What a fucked up place the world would be huh? Yea Beelzebub, shoot while you can or things might change for the better.

[General Septem]

What's interesting is the so-called "facist" and I believe the same thing, and I'm an anarchist.

[beelzebub]

What's interesting is the so-called "facist" and I believe the same thing, and I'm an anarchist.

Ho no GS you are a NeoAnarchist... Neoanarchist by god!

[General Septem]

Ho no GS you are a NeoAnarchist... Neoanarchist by god!

Anarchist, neo-anarchist, the only real difference is I don't think anarchy would work the way people today are, whereas hardcore anarchists think it would. But either way I'm far from facist.

[beelzebub]

Its clear that you dont care for "it's" form of correct, no need to say that.

It's form of correct? I don’t get that statement.


And you won't "stand proud" of what you stood for, you'll regret rejecting a God that wants to love you and wants you to love him aswell.

You don’t know that, are you so bold as to judge me? Do you think that you understand and know the mind of god? I will stand proud if it is your version of a god. If there is a god it won’t condemn me for the life that I live and the beliefs that I have. It will love me.


You see its sort of a "family" type thing between God and us. Sure I'm a dictator, a fascist and any other evil, narrow minded idiot because I think its wrong to kill unborn babies, well fuck it.

I don't see you as evil or narrow minded for not wanting to abort a fetus. I respect and find value in that stance. I don't value your desire to control others in their choices concerning their personal body. I am for personal choice as is your god.


Guess I should take over the world then and make things my way. A world were illegal drugs, illiteracy, murder, violence, andpersecution is not tollerated. And those who break these laws get the help they need in order to help them become good, loving citizens of the world. What a fucked up place the world would be huh? Yea Beelzebub, shoot while you can or things might change for the better.

Take over the world-- again with the desire to control others. Read Fahrenheit 451 or Brave New World.

The thing that makes this world so wonderful is that we are making choices in it. I don't like murder or harmful drugs or violence or persecution. However controlling others will make a new set of problems and amplify persecution of others because: Who will be the ones making the laws & whose version of correct is going to rule? Personally I would prefer living in this world than a Christian controlled state. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world.

[Ape-Shit]

Dedicated to Who897, Beelzebub, Ape-Shit, and a few others whose name I don't remember:

You guys are the fucked up, arrogant ass jerk offs; while I'M the one who cares about life a freedom. Freedom is being able to live, NOT having the right to kill,.

Disillusioned: Websters Defination of "Fredom".

Freedom: The condition or state of being free; political independence; possession of political rights; boldness of expression; liberty; unrestricted access or use.

Yeah Right....! We're the ones thats "Fucked Up". You don't even know the defination of the word FREEDOM.

Hey? On your so called judgement day, am I suppose to answer to YOUR GOD, THEIR GOD, HIS GOD, HER GOD OR MY GOD? I think I'll answer to mine with no problem, thank you.

Also, if you care so much about the children in this world, why don't you do something to support the ones who are living like animals in the streets around the world because they wern't aborted.

No you couldn't do that. Its people like you who talk your trash, but as soon as the child is born, you're outta there! Once the child is born, you couldn't give a shit what happens to it.

Yet you have the audacity to promote YOUR WILL by dictating what should or should not be done to a fetus of which is NONE OF YOUR FUCKING BUSINESS in the first place.

I know what "FREEDOM" is and I also know that people like you try to take it away.

Its people like Who897, Beelzebub and myself (Ape-Shit) who stand up to dicks like you for the protection of freedom and the personal rights of all individuals.

Abortion is "LEGAL" get over it.....!

Oh, buy the way. Ask your God, I'm sure he could change it if he really wanted to?

[REPTILE]

*Beelzebub - "It's form of correct? I don’t get that statement."

Does this ring a bell? *Beelzebub - "I promise you I will stand to any “judgement day “and stand proud that I stood for what I believe in. If the “judge” finds me to be wrong then so be it. I would not care for “its” form of correct anyway."
__________________________________________________ _________________

*Beelzebub - "Do you think that you understand and know the mind of god? I will stand proud if it is your version of a god.

Do you think YOU understand the mind of God? Of all people YOU, the one thats says all that "religious stuff" is BS. Im the one that loves him and accepts him, just as he accepts me. I know his word and whats right from wrong. Abortion is murder, PERIOD.
__________________________________________________ _________________

*Beelzebub - "If there is a god it won’t condemn me for the life that I live and the beliefs that I have. It will love me."

Oh, ok. I get it. So you say hes BS, that he doesn't exist, etc... yet you think you'll be saved though you rejected him, ridiculed him, ect... Yes he is loving, but he asks only ONE thing: To love him and live the right way. You obviously don't love him or live by his word so dont get your hopes up THAT high buddy.
__________________________________________________ _________________

*Beelzebub - "I am for personal choice as is your god."

My God IS for personal choice, but not when that "choice" is to kill an unborn child. Thats pretty plain and simple the way I put it, hope you can understand it. If my "personal choice" was to kill someone I can assure you he would NOT agree to that
__________________________________________________ _________________

*Beelzebub - "Take over the world-- again with the desire to control others. Read Fahrenheit 451 or Brave New World. "

You people take everything literally, as if I were to really take over the world/ or even have any desire to take over (i don't, takes too much work and I can be a bit lazy)
__________________________________________________ _________________


*Beelzebub - "The thing that makes this world so wonderful is that we are making choices in it. I don't like murder or harmful drugs or violence or persecution....

(Abortion is murder AND violence)

...However controlling others will make a new set of problems and amplify persecution of others because: Who will be the ones making the laws & whose version of correct is going to rule? Personally I would prefer living in this world than a Christian controlled state. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world." <end quote>


I have no interest in controlling you or anyone, believe it. However when the topic of killing an unborn child is brought up, if I could stop that from occuring then I would. "Facism" at its best huh?

[REPTILE]

*Ape-Shit - "Disillusioned: Websters Defination of "Fredom".
Freedom: The condition or state of being free; political independence; possession of political rights; boldness of expression; liberty; unrestricted access or use."

Yes, very true.
Our freedoms end when we impede the freedom of others. In this case an unborn baby (or as you call it, simply a "fetus") is being killed. Is that not taking away THE most basic freedom of all, to live. Is that not also taking away any other freedoms it may have in its future? Answer: Yes, therefore its fucked up. I understand that your argument is that the mother should have the right to abort and that if she doesn't then its as if she has no freedom herself. But the alternative is mudering another human being. As where shes losing the right to abort, the baby loses ALL RIGHTS, including the one I've already mentioned: the most basic right, life. Its easy to say "yea, I want it out of me" when your not the one whose gonna die. Just like it would be easy for a murderer to put a gun to your head and say, "well, i want to kill you".
__________________________________________________ _______________

*Ape-Shit - "Its people like Who897, Beelzebub and myself (Ape-Shit) who stand up to dicks like you for the protection of freedom and the personal rights of all individuals."

And dicks like you that approve taking away an unborn human beings most basic right, life.
__________________________________________________ _______________

*Ape-Shit - "Abortion is "LEGAL" get over it.....! Oh, buy the way. Ask your God, I'm sure he could change it if he really wanted to?"

Sure I'll ask him a soon as I can. Then if gets inside everyones head and forces everyone to think that abortion is wrong like the pro-life people, you'll start another thread on how much of a control freak he is. Nice one Ape-Shit!

[Dakota]

[QUOTE=Dakota]

So I am the one that is not having an intelligent conversation?

You think this was intelligent!?!?!?!?:


I see this as senseless religious babbling.


Man - you left-wing liberals can be some of the most intolerant individual ever. Seriously, you keep demanding tolerance from everybody else for whatever it is that you're in favor off, but in return - you can't even tolerate it, if someone has an opinion other than your own. I never insulted you, I've always been respectful. I've simply been trying to explain to you how I see things and what I believe in. You can take that or leave it. Yes, obviously you'll leave it, and that's fine. You can see things however you want to, and believe in whatever it is that you believe in. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm just sharing mine. So don't go around insulting me and my opinions and demand I join yours. I tolerate you. Can you not pay me the same respect? Why is this so hard for (many) of you freedom-loving pro-choice liberals? I'm choosing to have a faith. I'm choosing to be pro life. And I'm choosing to voice my opinion. That's MY choice. Insulting me because of it, is totally uncalled for.

[Dakota]

Oh, buy the way. Ask your God, I'm sure he could change it if he really wanted to?


HE will my friend. In HIS time HE will. Maybe not on this earth - but when there's a new earth and a new heaven as promised - there will be no more abortions, and the ones who had them will have to answer to HIM.


Yeah, yeah, yeah - I know - senseless brainwashed babbeling - SAVE IT. No need to repeat yourselves.

[General Septem]

Oh, buy the way. Ask your God, I'm sure he could change it if he really wanted to?

God IS changing it, through His servants' work of charity and compassion. Even if it is not becoming illegal yet, God is helping people every day choose not to have an abortion.

[Ape-Shit]

You guys are Sooooooo full of Shit!

[beelzebub]

Does this ring a bell? *Beelzebub - "I promise you I will stand to any “judgement day “and stand proud that I stood for what I believe in. If the “judge” finds me to be wrong then so be it. I would not care for “its” form of correct anyway."

Oh I see now, and I reaffirm what I have written.
__________________________________________________ _________________


Do you think YOU understand the mind of God? Of all people YOU, the one thats says all that "religious stuff" is BS. Im the one that loves him and accepts him, just as he accepts me. I know his word and whats right from wrong. Abortion is murder, PERIOD.

Look, you are the one saying that I am going to regret when I stand in front of it. That infers you think that I will be judged as being wrong and bad. THEREFORE YOU are the one that thinks you know what god is going to do.

I didn’t say anything about god because I don’t believe in it. I do not believe that it exists (at least in the way that you think of). Religious stuff is BULLSHIT. I get sick of a group of people who use a system of logic that doesn’t have any foundation. Now,... I am not talking about the fundamentals of whether you believe in a god but all the crap that follows. Just a bunch of people making up what they think god is and wants and then saying it is supported by the biblical text (written by a bunch of people making up what they think god is and wants).

__________________________________________________ _________________


Oh, ok. I get it. So you say hes BS, that he doesn't exist, etc... yet you think you'll be saved though you rejected him, ridiculed him, ect...

I said I don’t think it exists and I stand by it. IF (the key word here) IF it does exist I can imagine it using your twisted logic.


Yes he is loving, but he asks only ONE thing: To love him and live the right way. You obviously don't love him or live by his word so dont get your hopes up THAT high buddy.

Love it the right way? Is there a wrong way to love? Do you love god for fear of eternal damnation? Is real love or forced love? Personally I can imagine a good, loving god forcing people to love it only a particular way and torturing those that don’t.

Thanks for judging me yet once again. It would seem you aren’t very good at your own religion (John 8:1-11).

By the way you said " Im the one that loves him and accepts him, just as he accepts me" So god accepts you? How do you know. Did it tell you that you are loving it correctly and it loves you back because of that?
__________________________________________________ _________________


My God IS for personal choice, but not when that "choice" is to kill an unborn child. That’s pretty plain and simple the way I put it, hope you can understand it. If my "personal choice" was to kill someone I can assure you he would NOT agree to that

Quote me that in the scripture………. Oh wait I forgot, that book you call the bible is full of inconsistencies. No doubt you will find one line that says "do what ye will" followed by "do what I say or burn". Never mind.

Dear god, please save me from your followers.

__________________________________________________ _________________


(Abortion is murder AND violence)

I DON’T AGREE


I have no interest in controlling you or anyone, believe it. However when the topic of killing an unborn child is brought up, if I could stop that from occurring then I would. "Facism" at its best huh?

Yeah, I guess you have said it all. You first sentence contradicts your last. TOTAL HIPROCRISY. You only can understand your form of correct. No one else matters.

[General Septem]

Quote me that in the scripture………. Oh wait I forgot, that book you call the bible is full of inconsistencies. No doubt you will find one line that says "do what ye will" followed by "do what I say or burn". Never mind.

The thing is, we do have the choice. It isn't "Do what I say or burn". God gave us free will so that we would choose to follow Him. That's part of the "image and likeness" thing. We have the choice either to follow God, or not. If someone goes to hell, that is his choice, not just some punishment for not doing what God says. It's a choice, affected by other choices we make. One option will lead to certain death, and one will lead to certain life. God doesn't make us choose one or the other.

[Dakota]

[QUOTE=beelzebub]
I didn’t say anything about god because I don’t believe in it. I do not believe that it exists (at least in the way that you think of). Religious stuff is BULLSHIT. I get sick of a group of people who use a system of logic that doesn’t have any foundation. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Actually our "logic" - though I'm not sure that's the right word for what it really is - has a foundation. Any religion and religious believes for that matter have a foundation. It's called FAITH. If you don't have faith, obviously you won't believe any of it, because there's no real proof. That's why I never get into arguments with people trying to convince them of what I know to be true. It's not a science - I can't proof it. It's a faith.
__________________________________________________ ___________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Now,... I am not talking about the fundamentals of whether you believe in a god but all the crap that follows. Just a bunch of people making up what they think god is and wants and then saying it is supported by the biblical text (written by a bunch of people making up what they think god is and wants). [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Oh boy - you sound like my husband there :o - yes, he doesn't quite share my faith either. I love him anyway. He's awesome!!! I'm just saying that because sometimes we get acused of being intolerant, judgemental and unaccepting of people who don't share our faith. Well, I married him - pretty good indication that that's not the case here.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Love it the right way? Is there a wrong way to love?[QUOTE=beelzebub]

I'm not sure what you're asking, but you seem familiar with the bibel so - in 1.Conrinthians 13 Love is described. That's what love is.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Do you love god for fear of eternal damnation? Is real love or forced love? [QUOTE=beelzebub]

No, I don't love God for fear of eternal damnation. I love him because he first loved me. And I love him because every day life with him by my side, is much much easier. I have and I do experience God in my life in very powerful ways all the time. For example - My little baby Emma was very colicy and miserable for a long time when she was a newborn. It was very hard trying to comfort her and keep her from crying all day. Some days I was ready for a nervous breakdown. Then I finally found peace with letting my husband watch her and I joined a women's group at my church. I got everyone to pray for little Emma and within a couple of days - her colics were gone and she was a totally different and very happy baby. Sure, anybody without faith will say - big deal, coincidence. I won't even try to convince you otherwise, because like I said. I have no proof. It's not a science. I'm just sharing with you in what ways I've experienced God's work in my life.
__________________________________________________ _______________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Thanks for judging me yet once again. It would seem you aren’t very good at your own religion (John 8:1-11). [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Way to go :)! I actually didn't read the whole thing, so I'm not sure why you felt that Reptile was judging you, but good for you for knowing scripture. That does make for an awesome discussion.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub]By the way you said " Im the one that loves him and accepts him, just as he accepts me" So god accepts you? How do you know. Did it tell you that you are loving it correctly and it loves you back because of that? [QUOTE=beelzebub]

No dude - God doesn't love me back because I love him correctly. He loves me IN SPITE of the fact that I continously struggle with loveing him the way he deserves. He loves me because he loves me. How do I know? He became human and died on the cross for me - and for you and for everyone else. As a matter of fact - this is what distinguishes biblical christianity from any other religion. God doesn't demand from us to save ourselves by doing this that and the other up to and including becoming a martyr. HE provides the salvation. He provided it when he died and rose from the dead on the third day. He won the battle against evil for us. And all he asks from us is that we believe in Him, His Word and His sacrifice. If we believe in His victory and claim it for us, we're saved. Pretty cool.
Again - obvioulsy, if you don't buy any of this it'll all sound pretty dumb to you. Again - just trying to share what it is that I believe.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Quote me that in the scripture………. Oh wait I forgot, that book you call the bible is full of inconsistencies. No doubt you will find one line that says "do what ye will" followed by "do what I say or burn". Never mind. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

The bibel actually isn't inconsistent. If you take verses out of context and compare them to other verses out of context you can create inconsistencies though. If you read the whole thing though, you'll find it very consistent.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Dear god, please save me from your followers. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

LOL :) - My husband loved that line. He used to feel that way. Since he's been going with me to our church though, he's come to realize - not all of us are fanatic freaks :o ...

[REPTILE]

I logged in, checked this thread, and I must say Dakota pretty much answered for me! Thanks Dakota, you saved me a shit load of typing!

[Dakota]

I logged in, checked this thread, and I must say Dakota pretty much answered for me! Thanks Dakota, you saved me a shit load of typing!


My pleasure, Reptile. :)! Anytime

[quadsixes]

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/index.htm

(Not for the weak of heart.)

[Dakota]

http://www.priestsforlife.org/resources/abortionimages/index.htm

(Not for the weak of heart.)


Hi - Thanks for posting this. I only looked at the alive ones in the womb - Way cool. I couldn't look at the aborted ones. While searchig for something unrelated, I came across a website that had such pictures while I was pregnant. It was the most aweful thing I'd ever seen.

[beelzebub]

It's called FAITH. If you don't have faith, obviously you won't believe any of it, because there's no real proof. That's why I never get into arguments with people trying to convince them of what I know to be true. It's not a science - I can't proof it. It's a faith.

You took this out of context. I was saying that I can see people believing in god and some of them myths that surround it. What I have a problem with is that people use other interpretation of what they think god is and what it likes and doesn’t like. That’s foundationless.
__________________________________________________ ____________________________________


I'm not sure what you're asking, but you seem familiar with the bibel so - in 1.Conrinthians 13 Love is described. That's what love is.

I am sorry. I refuse to have a narrow definition of love. If you need to validate how you feel to make it good and right that’s on you. I know what is good and right without a list of definitions and rules.
__________________________________________________ _________________________________


No, I don't love God for fear of eternal damnation. ... I'm just sharing with you in what ways I've experienced God's work in my life.

Thanks for sharing?
__________________________________________________ _______________________________


Way to go :)! I actually didn't read the whole thing, so I'm not sure why you felt that Reptile was judging you, but good for you for knowing scripture. That does make for an awesome discussion.

ok... great, so now what? ha ah

__________________________________________________ ____________________________


No dude - God doesn't love me back because I love him correctly. He loves me IN SPITE of the fact that I continously struggle with loveing him the way he deserves.

Therefore it loves me as well and accepts me with my faults.


Again - obvioulsy, if you don't buy any of this it'll all sound pretty dumb to you. Again - just trying to share what it is that I believe.

Ok... I don’t mean to be offensive but can we please stick to the topic? I hate it when people proselytize. I am an atheist I know all that stuff and still reject it. No need to try and "win me to the lord" I don’t believe in her.
__________________________________________________ __________________________________


The bibel actually isn't inconsistent. If you take verses out of context and compare them to other verses out of context you can create inconsistencies though. If you read the whole thing though, you'll find it very consistent.


I would need to start a new thread. I have proved to you that I at least know a few bible quotes. I AM TELLING YOU THERE ARE A LOT MORE WHERE THAT COMES FROM. The bible is VERY inconsistent. I have read the bible twice. KJV and NIV.
__________________________________________________ _____________________________


LOL :) - My husband loved that line. He used to feel that way. Since he's been going with me to our church though, he's come to realize - not all of us are fanatic freaks :o ...

That’s great. I know many xtians and even have several as friends. It is true that many are very good people. My partner feels the same way as I do.

[REPTILE]

In all respect to everyone here whether pro-choice or pro-life, the following 2 videos intitled "choice blues"

http://www.abortionno.org/Resources/audiovideo.html

are totally horrific. I understand a womans right of her body. But doing this to another body as a result of "personal freedom" cannot be right. Anyone who can look at this and say with sincerity that abortion is ok should in all respect take time to think about life and the beauty AND generosity of giving life.

[beelzebub]

In all respect to everyone here whether pro-choice or pro-life, the following 2 videos intitled "choice blues"
bla b la bla
are totally horrific. I understand a womans right of her body. But doing this to another body as a result of "personal freedom" cannot be right. Anyone who can look at this and say with sincerity that abortion is ok should in all respect take time to think about life and the beauty AND generosity of giving life.

I think that the videos are totally gross, horrific and nasty.

I look at these and say that I would prefer this than to exclude a woman's right to choose (a separate true individual).

[REPTILE]

Well I beg to differ. That fetus in there is a true individual aswell. If there was some way to remove the baby without killing it I'd be all for it. Until then, I see ripping them limb from limb and sucking there brains out as wrong. When does "personal freedom" cross the line?

Should I have the freedom to kill someone who annoys me (same way a woman may abort an unwanted fetus), should I have the freedom to blow myself up wherever I may choose to? Its my body afterall. Should I be able shoot an "unawanted bum" anytime I want? I promise I'll aim for the head, I won't rip him limb from limb. That will make it OK won't it, since he wont even notice? Its my choice. There are people do these kinds of things because they "choose" to. I bet my bottom dollar your thinking that all the things I said are evil and wrong. I understand that with the fetus, its still something within the womans body, but the fact remains that the "other" person is going to die. If for whatever reason my mom would of considered abortion I would be only so much more grateful for life.

[beelzebub]

Well I beg to differ. That fetus in there is a true individual aswell. If there was some way to remove the baby without killing it I'd be all for it. Until then, I see ripping them limb from limb and sucking there brains out as wrong. When does "personal freedom" cross the line?

You are wrong. A fetus is not an individual because individula describes any numerically singular thing. A fetus is not singular by virtue of it's attachment and enclosure in the mother. It is apart of the mother's body.


Should I have the freedom to kill someone who annoys me (same way a woman may abort an unwanted fetus), should I have the freedom to blow myself up wherever I may choose to? Its my body afterall. Should I be able shoot an "unawanted bum" anytime I want? I promise I'll aim for the head, I won't rip him limb from limb. That will make it OK won't it, since he wont even notice? Its my choice.

This is a totally different argument. The bum doesn’t live inside your body. He/She is a separate individual. There is not common ground here other then killing.


There are people do these kinds of things because they "choose" to. I bet my bottom dollar your thinking that all the things I said are evil and wrong. I understand that with the fetus, its still something within the womans body, but the fact remains that the "other" person is going to die.

Yes and I prefer that to social control over individuals forcing them to carry a fetus to term. While it is sad that a fetus will be destroyed it is better than bodily social control.


If for whatever reason my mom would of considered abortion I would be only so much more grateful for life.

You wouldn’t even be able to form that thought. The you that is you wouldn't be. No sadness not happiness just no thing.

[General Septem]

You are wrong. A fetus is not an individual because individula describes any numerically singular thing. A fetus is not singular by virtue of it's attachment and enclosure in the mother. It is apart of the mother's body.
So are conjoined twins a single individual or two separate individuals?

[Dakota]

What I have a problem with is that people use other interpretation of what they think god is and what it likes and doesn’t like. That’s foundationless. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Using "other interpretation" of what they think God is ... What the hell is that supposed to mean. What "OTHER interpretation"??? - and if they - whoever "they" are - are using a "other interpretation", what was the original one?? I guess that one wouldn't be foundationless then? Which one is that??
__________________________________________________ _______________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] I am sorry. I refuse to have a narrow definition of love. If you need to validate how you feel to make it good and right that’s on you. I know what is good and right without a list of definitions and rules. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

How do you know what's good and right???? You make it up as you go along? Your word is law, basically? Or should be? Or do you turn toward what the current law is, to figure out right from wrong??
Or is it whatever makes you feel warm and fuzzy on the inside must be good??? Things that make you angry then are wrong?
__________________________________________________ _____________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] [*Dakota] No, I don't love God for fear of eternal damnation. ... I'm just sharing with you in what ways I've experienced God's work in my life. [*Dakota]

Thanks for sharing? [QUOTE=beelzebub]

WHATEVER! Talk about taking shit out of context. You get rid of everything I say, make your stupid comment and then complain that I take things out of context. WHATEVER!
And again - I've never insulted you for your opinions and experiences. Yet you don't seem to be able to extend the same courtesy to me. Since you know so well what's right and wrong - offending and insulting people must be right and good, cause why would you do it otherwise?
__________________________________________________ _______________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Therefore it loves me as well and accepts me with my faults. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Well, if you read the Bibel so carefully twice - as you claim - you should know that of course HE also love you with your faults. AND - it gets "worse" - HE also asks for ME to love you as well. Being a Christian sure is challenging sometimes!!!!!
__________________________________________________ _____

[QUOTE=beelzebub] Ok... I don’t mean to be offensive but can we please stick to the topic? I hate it when people proselytize. I am an atheist I know all that stuff and still reject it. No need to try and "win me to the lord" I don’t believe in her. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

I can't say it enough - WHAAAATEEEEVER!!!! I simply answered your freaking questions, and all I did was add to the answer that I don't expect you to agree with my answers so that I wouldn't offend you. Of course you didn't qoute the actual answer. Just the ending, cause that way you can make me sound more stupid. Well done! And if you already know all this stuff - why the heck did you ask your stupid questions in the first place???
__________________________________________________ ___________




[QUOTE=beelzebub] I would need to start a new thread. I have proved to you that I at least know a few bible quotes. I AM TELLING YOU THERE ARE A LOT MORE WHERE THAT COMES FROM. The bible is VERY inconsistent. I have read the bible twice. KJV and NIV. [QUOTE=beelzebub]

Well, it's great that you know so much - Now I REALLY don't know why you would have asked all those stupid questions then, but maybe you're bored, or you just like to stir up dirt for another opportunity to insult someone.
In any even - Give it to me - here or on another thread - Where are the inconsistencies?????
__________________________________________________ _____________

[QUOTE=beelzebub] That’s great. I know many xtians and even have several as friends. It is true that many are very good people. My partner feels the same way as I do.

I know I'm repeating myself - WHATEVER

[Ape-Shit]

With the creation of the "Morning After Pill",

Abortion is just a Dead Issue.....!



Get it.....!

[REPTILE]

*Beelzebub - "You are wrong. A fetus is not an individual because individula describes any numerically singular thing. A fetus is not singular by virtue of it's attachment and enclosure in the mother. It is apart of the mother's body."

Everything is not meant to be taken so literal. I know its a part of the mother, I've said that before. They are together in flesh, but they are two different people. My mother and I are two different people, even when I was inside of her I was ME and my mother was herself. I lived in her, feed from her, etc... But I had my own body and soul. I was an "unborn individual" if you will. Of course with fancy explanations and termanologys you claim that the mother and fetus are one in the same (which there are not). Like the General said, conjoined twins, would you consider them the same person, or seperate persons?

[Dakota]

With the creation of the "Morning After Pill",

Abortion is just a Dead Issue.....!



Get it.....!


Actually - it's a DEATH issue ...

[rengic]

The idea that a woman can have a "partial birth" abortion on a whim is not founded in reality. So called "pro-choice" groups would take no issue with a ban on "partial birth" abortions if it had exceptions for the life and health of the mother. Currently "Partial birth" abortions are not performed unless this is the case (a health/life crisis). There are NO accounts of this type of abortion being conducted legally unless this threat exists. "Partial Birth" is not a medical recognized term and the actual procedure is only to be used in life threatening situations. The problem with the Bush law is that there is NO exception to protect the mother's life.

[who897]

Once they are born they are their own beings. Until then they are a part of the mother and if the mother wants to remove it by force if necissary so be it. Dead, Death, Dying issues? No the issue is choice, once you lose sight of that, then you my friend are lost in the ocean without a GPS and only have a vague direction in which you came.

[tamika5555]

hey,

i m a feminist and proud, but it occured to me one day, that half the abortions are killing little girls, seriously, these are just women in an early stage of development.

that is unfair and against all that womens rights stands for.

we need to be protecting women and that means being for womens rights.

i do not know ONE woman who would kill her daughter, they just didn't think about it like this.

therefore abortion when the little baby is a baby girl should be outlawed. whoever is for killing baby girls is against womens rights.

are you FOR or AGAINST womens rights ?

i am a feminist, therefore i say the law should be revised to outlaw killing of baby girls.

lets talk girls !

tamika5555

[who897]

Tami the dike like sike. Hey you already posted that.

[erin88]

ok...it's ok to kill the baby (the word fetus dehumanizes it) if it's in the womb, yet illegal to kill another human? It's a woman's right to do it since it's her own body...yet drugs and attempted suicide are illegal? Our laws are fucked up. . .it's illegal to kill a person yet we have war. . . and if someone kills someone else...we kill them back? It sounds like legalized murder to me.

[ajk]

That's exactly what abortion is. Legalized murder.

[something]

That's exactly what abortion is. Legalized murder.

From one point of wiev. Hard to tell, but I'm for it.

[MrJim]

BTW, this just in, Supreme Court backs the partial-birth abortion ban.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070418/ap_on_go_su_co/scotus_abortion;_ylt=Akdv_DE1S8DWIlVEny2wtzKs0NUE

[Ausinus]

That's exactly what abortion is. Legalized murder.

Nah, purely opinion, and invalidated opinion at that. Abortion is abortion.

[General Septem]

Nah, purely opinion, and invalidated opinion at that. Abortion is abortion.

And killing is killing, but if you kill an innocent it's murder.

You pro-abortion people can be very confusing. (yes, I refuse to say pro-choice because I'm pro-choice by definition and I still think abortion is wrong)

[Ausinus]

And killing is killing, but if you kill an innocent it's murder.

You pro-abortion people can be very confusing. (yes, I refuse to say pro-choice because I'm pro-choice by definition and I still think abortion is wrong)

Murder has nothing to do with any percieved innocence.

[General Septem]

Murder has nothing to do with any percieved innocence.

It does in the law I'm familiar with. If you kill someone who is trying to kill you, it's self-defense. If you kill an innocent, it is murder.

[Ausinus]

It does in the law I'm familiar with. If you kill someone who is trying to kill you, it's self-defense. If you kill an innocent, it is murder.

Innocence has nothing to do with murder. Because there is no such thing as an innocent human being.

[General Septem]

Innocence has nothing to do with murder. Because there is no such thing as an innocent human being.

How about relatively innocent, as in the difference between a murderous psychopath and a three-year old who doesn't even know what murder is.

[JenDevon]

:mad:
its murder, and if anyone thinks different you let me know what makes it differ?
Honestly now think about it maybe the woman was raped or something and she really truley didnt want that child...DONT KILL IT !!!...what the hell did that poor little angel ever do to you? think about adoption...im however not fully for adoption but its a hell of alot better then killing a helpless child!! it makes me sick to even discuss, what kind of woman would go through 7 or however many months caring for this human inside her, feeling it move and feeling its livelyness, what could that woman possibly be thinking that would make her kill that little miracle? i dont understand how its legal anywhere...i dont think you can grab a gun go outside and shoot someone and get away with it, thats the same isnt it????
TO ALL THE WOMAN WHO HAVE DONE IT AND/OR PLAN ON DOING IT...YOU MAKE ME SICK AND I PRAY TO GOD THAT HE RETURNS THE FAVOR TO YOU!!!
now im not wishing anything bad to anyone...but heaven forbid you get away with deleting a helpless life!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

[MrJim]

:mad:
its murder, and if anyone thinks different you let me know what makes it differ?
Honestly now think about it maybe the woman was raped or something and she really truley didnt want that child...DONT KILL IT !!!...what the hell did that poor little angel ever do to you? think about adoption...im however not fully for adoption but its a hell of alot better then killing a helpless child!! it makes me sick to even discuss, what kind of woman would go through 7 or however many months caring for this human inside her, feeling it move and feeling its livelyness, what could that woman possibly be thinking that would make her kill that little miracle? i dont understand how its legal anywhere...i dont think you can grab a gun go outside and shoot someone and get away with it, thats the same isnt it????
TO ALL THE WOMAN WHO HAVE DONE IT AND/OR PLAN ON DOING IT...YOU MAKE ME SICK AND I PRAY TO GOD THAT HE RETURNS THE FAVOR TO YOU!!!
now im not wishing anything bad to anyone...but heaven forbid you get away with deleting a helpless life!!!!!!!!!!!:mad:

Yeah, the problem is people not thinking about anyone but themselves. The rape victims are a tiny, TINY percentage of the number of abortions performed, and the hospital administers a CONCRACEPTIVE when a rape victim is admitted so that the baby won't have do be aborted in the first place.

Greed, selfishness... that's all there is behind abortion.

[Loseirdo]

Yeah, the problem is people not thinking about anyone but themselves. The rape victims are a tiny, TINY percentage of the number of abortions performed, and the hospital administers a CONCRACEPTIVE when a rape victim is admitted so that the baby won't have do be aborted in the first place.

Greed, selfishness... that's all there is behind abortion.

No question. http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[hitekredneck]

Yeah, the problem is people not thinking about anyone but themselves. The rape victims are a tiny, TINY percentage of the number of abortions performed, and the hospital administers a CONCRACEPTIVE when a rape victim is admitted so that the baby won't have do be aborted in the first place.

Greed, selfishness... that's all there is behind abortion.

now jim, you forgot to put in "lack of responsibility for your actions";)

[Renaschelle]

now jim, you forgot to put in "lack of responsibility for your actions";)

It seems as if personal responsibility has been dead for years. I know that in working with children that is the one thing I try to teach them early. If they do something and try to put the blame on others, its important for any adult around to show them that they did it and no one made them do it. Then hopefully some of these idiots will stop trying to use someone else as a scapegoat.

[hitekredneck]

It seems as if personal responsibility has been dead for years. I know that in working with children that is the one thing I try to teach them early. If they do something and try to put the blame on others, its important for any adult around to show them that they did it and no one made them do it. Then hopefully some of these idiots will stop trying to use someone else as a scapegoat.

i think we're too late....look at this:
http://forum.bullshit.com/showthread.php?p=36483#post36483

[MrJim]

now jim, you forgot to put in "lack of responsibility for your actions";)

Right.

Responsibility = Work - Greed - Selfishness.

[WhiteRaven]

If you weren't greedy you wouldn't get a job with which to make money, and then the economy collapses.

[Loseirdo]

If you weren't greedy you wouldn't get a job with which to make money, and then the economy collapses.

You don't need to be greedy to have a job. There's the simple factor of "I feel like staying alive". Believe it or not, some people take jobs simply because they enjoy doing them and not because they pay well (although some of them do).

[WhiteRaven]

"There's the simple factor of "I feel like staying alive"."

Is greed not simply the desire for money. In everyday speech anyway.

[MrJim]

If you weren't greedy you wouldn't get a job with which to make money, and then the economy collapses.

Of course... having a job with which to make money isn't "greedy", it's winning the struggle for survival in a world that requires such for such... sacrificing family & friends, etc., for money, that is a display of greed.

[WhiteRaven]

I thought greed just meant you wanted stuff.

[Loseirdo]

I thought greed just meant you wanted stuff.

"Greed" is the desire for things that you don't need. Holding down a job isn't greedy because people need money to survive.

[General Septem]

"Greed" is the desire for things that you don't need. Holding down a job isn't greedy because people need money to survive.

I desire plenty of which I don't need. I just don't plan on screwing anyone over in obtaining it. That's not greedy.

I don't understand the first quote in your sig, by the way. Do you think our rights should be kept scarce, or do are you saying Colbert is an idiot for saying that? I presume the latter. :D

[Loseirdo]

I desire plenty of which I don't need. I just don't plan on screwing anyone over in obtaining it. That's not greedy.

I don't understand the first quote in your sig, by the way. Do you think our rights should be kept scarce, or do are you saying Colbert is an idiot for saying that? I presume the latter. :D

I just thought it was hilarious. I love Stephen Colbert because he's so over the top. You can't take him seriously, and that's what makes him funny. I don't think our rights should be kept scarce, but the fact that Colbert said that is hilarious to me. Besides, it was a brilliant setup. :D

BTW, if you don't know, it was from "The Colbert Report", which is a political satire show. He takes the position of a far-right wacko in order to make fun of Republicans, but he takes enough jabs at liberals for it to be funny. It's one of the better political shows on Comedy Central (hell, it's the best).

[WhiteRaven]

""Greed" is the desire for things that you don't need."

So I'm greedy because I want more video games? need is a very easy word to manipulate. Do we need to learn? Do we need to have pets?

[General Septem]

I just thought it was hilarious. I love Stephen Colbert because he's so over the top. You can't take him seriously, and that's what makes him funny. I don't think our rights should be kept scarce, but the fact that Colbert said that is hilarious to me. Besides, it was a brilliant setup. :D

BTW, if you don't know, it was from "The Colbert Report", which is a political satire show. He takes the position of a far-right wacko in order to make fun of Republicans, but he takes enough jabs at liberals for it to be funny. It's one of the better political shows on Comedy Central (hell, it's the best).

Ah. I get it now. :D


""Greed" is the desire for things that you don't need."

So I'm greedy because I want more video games? need is a very easy word to manipulate. Do we need to learn? Do we need to have pets?

"Learning is not compulsory; neither is survival." - W. Edwards Deming

(It doesn't answer your question, but I found it relevant. :D)

[WhiteRaven]

if survival is not considered a need that would make everyone greedy...

[Loseirdo]

if survival is not considered a need that would make everyone greedy...

I've always seen survival as the basis for our needs. If something doesn't contribute to our survival, we don't need it.

No, you don't need pets, but you do need companionship, so it's not greedy to want a pet. It is greedy to want the pet but not the responsibility, though.

[General Septem]

if survival is not considered a need that would make everyone greedy...

We are. I think perhaps it's time to just admit it. I want $100 billion so I can live comfortably and not have to worry about money. If everyone just acknowledged and understood that everyone is most important to themselves, I think all the animosity would go away.

[Loseirdo]

We are. I think perhaps it's time to just admit it. I want $100 billion so I can live comfortably and not have to worry about money. If everyone just acknowledged and understood that everyone is most important to themselves, I think all the animosity would go away.

It's not true, though. If I was only worried about supporting myself, I wouldn't care how much money I make. I only want a high-paying job because I plan on getting married and having a lot of kids. As long as I can support my family, I'll thank God for whatever extra I am blessed with and probably end up spending it on my kids. I would much rather spend money on someone I love than myself.

[Moonflower3671]

Whoah Nelly!!!!!! You...uh....um....that's very detailed. That's some sick shit there!

Killing babies is in no way cool.....I spit at the people who are not cool. Yes, women have the right. It's inside them, so it is somewhat still part of there body. So if they want it removed, they can....Jesus christ! Women are sick! Well killing an "almost baby" may be good...who knows...it may be the next Hitler, so it may be better of dead.

Yes thats soms sick shit there.but you will have to deal with god on this one cause technicly you are a murderer. you need couseling,cause i gaurantee you that when you get older and do have kids that baby will be all you'll be able to think about.and how it suffered.Moonflower