This is for anyone who doesn't believe in God or that we have a soul

[ajk]

This story is incredible.
http://web.archive.org/web/20041014023056/users.aol.com/Psyeditor/donnac.html

[theicidal maniac]

Ok so ...WHOA, man totally trippy.

NOT!

"Then as I was walking, a black cat ran right in front of me. This traditional bad luck symbol really got my attention"
A black cat...ooooooooohhhhhhhhh!. Wow, a pagan symbol in a christian fantasy, all the Gods working together to help this single EXTRAORDINARY woman! AMAZING!

Oh did I mention that at the bottom of the page there are links to "Psychic Readings, SpiritLinks, and Amazing Story Contest". Are there seriously people who buy into this shit? God DAMN I'd like to have a shot at selling you some shit.

Listen anytime time someone who claims to have SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES or CONTACT WITH THE DEAD and also coincidentally SELLS A PRODUCT RELATED TO SUPERSTITIOUS IDEAS...WATCH THE FUCK OUT, they only want cash!

You are absolutely right; This story is incredible...as in "without credibility"

[ajk]

You really think someone would make that up? I mean come on!

[theicidal maniac]

NO WAY. People NEVER MAKE SHIT UP. Everything you have ever heard is true true true, including the Bible. And Santa. And when Directv says they are better than cable or Dishnetwork believe it cuz man, they wouldn't make that up!

[ajk]

Alright now enough, mocking is not neccessary.

Incidentally I've read other stories such as that too, where a person becomes disconnected from their actual bodies briefly (not in an accident per se), sees there own body laying there before them and then becomes a part of that body once more.

[sanford]

Ok so ...WHOA, man totally trippy.

NOT!

"Then as I was walking, a black cat ran right in front of me. This traditional bad luck symbol really got my attention"
A black cat...ooooooooohhhhhhhhh!. Wow, a pagan symbol in a christian fantasy, all the Gods working together to help this single EXTRAORDINARY woman! AMAZING!

Oh did I mention that at the bottom of the page there are links to "Psychic Readings, SpiritLinks, and Amazing Story Contest". Are there seriously people who buy into this shit? God DAMN I'd like to have a shot at selling you some shit.

Listen anytime time someone who claims to have SPIRITUAL EXPERIENCES or CONTACT WITH THE DEAD and also coincidentally SELLS A PRODUCT RELATED TO SUPERSTITIOUS IDEAS...WATCH THE FUCK OUT, they only want cash!

You are absolutely right; This story is incredible...as in "without credibility"

It must be rather easy to just say everything is fake. You'll regret that. Laugh now, but you'll truly regret it.

[theicidal maniac]

It must be rather easy to just say everything is fake. You'll regret that. Laugh now, but you'll truly regret it.

Well it is when it comes to fake things. When there is actual evidence it is much more difficult to say something is fake, but then, that doesn't really apply to this crap.

it's been a few minutes...no regrets yet.

[Brains_Behind_Operation]

Do you want a real life example with no strings attached? I happen to have just what you're looking for from my own life experience.

It was homecomming night for my Sophomore year in High School. I was dancing with my new girlfriend, very certain that I was going to score for the first time in my life because this girl was known to be extra loose. While I was making my moves on her and thinking of how I was going to get her into bed I realized that I needed to ride home with her instead of my sister, as was the initial plan that evening, (I was only 15 so couldn't drive myself). While I was planning this all out there was a strong force in my mind telling me not to go through with it, what else could this have been but a supernatural force? Well, while we were driving home that night we dropped off her best friend at home and I moved into the front passenger seat, preparing to make my final move to get into her bed once we got to her house. The last thing that I remember was pulling the door shut after I got into the car. Next thing I know I'm tied down to a bed in a hospital with no idea of what was going on. It turned out that just as we pulled into the street we were hit head-on by a drunken driver in the wrong lang with no headlights, just blocks from the bar he got trashed at. I did not have enough time to put my seatbelt on so I was hurt the most by this 70mph impact, with bones broken in 5 different places in my skull, 5 in my jaw, 1 in my clavical and 2 in my thumb. I spent a month in the hospital and was lucky to be alive after the injuries that I suffered. Now there is nothing more than a few hospital scars and numbness around my mouth that remains from the injuries I suffered in the accident.

I was not smart enough to adhere to the warnings that were given to me before-hand, but I was given another chance. Initially I lost my faith from this incident. But after a few years, asking myself questions, I realize that I was wrong to reject God, as it very well may have been only his good graces that allowed me to live. I must have some further purpose, I do not yet know what it is, but I am eager to fulfill it.

[ajk]

I feel quite similar about my own brush with death as it were. God spared me from being in that car for a reason. Obviously there's some purpose I'm still needed here to fulfill. What that is I do not know, but I hope to find out.

[sanford]

Well it is when it comes to fake things. When there is actual evidence it is much more difficult to say something is fake, but then, that doesn't really apply to this crap.

it's been a few minutes...no regrets yet.
Oh trust me, you don't have to regret it now. The clock continues to tick though. Your mission it seems, is to laugh and make a mockery of God. You may enjoy it now, but everybody has an expiration date - and I just hope before then you do have regrets. May God have mercy on your soul.

[theicidal maniac]

Oh trust me, you don't have to regret it now. The clock continues to tick though. Your mission it seems, is to laugh and make a mockery of God. You may enjoy it now, but everybody has an expiration date - and I just before then you do have regrets. May God have mercy on your soul.

Well if you're right, then that is God's plan for me, so I doing what He wanted so I'll go to heaven...And even if I do go to hell I'll be there with my buddies, so it'll be like heaven.

P.S. Idiots, testimonials don't mean shit...everyone knows that infomercials are built on testimonials and....wait a minute YOU GUYS ARE THE ONES BUYING THE "AS SEEN ON TV SHIT!"

[sanford]

Well if you're right, then that is God's plan for me, so I doing what He wanted so I'll go to heaven...And even if I do go to hell I'll be there with my buddies, so it'll be like heaven.



No it's not God's plan for you. You deny God to every degree - and for that it is Satan's plan for you. You accept denial and give up. It shows a lot about your character too. You like to give up and put things behind you - meanwhile labeling everything you can't do as fake or not worthy.

Yep - going to hell with your buddies will be like heaven to you? Sir, you suggest you'd rather be in hell than heaven! It just shows your in it to hate everything good.

[theicidal maniac]

No it's not God's plan for you. You deny God to every degree - and for that it is Satan's plan for you. You accept denial and give up. It shows a lot about your character too. You like to give up and put things behind you - meanwhile labeling everything you can't do as fake or not worthy.

Yep - going to hell with your buddies will be like heaven to you? Sir, you suggest you'd rather be in hell than heaven! It just shows your in it to hate everything good.


See this is a prime example of why religion is STILL evil today even after the crusades. You have imprisoned your mind...you have built walls, the exterior of which delineate the boundaries of possible thoughts...you DISALLOW yourself from thinking certain things and that is a shame...you are a robot.

[theicidal maniac]

Oh trust me, you don't have to regret it now. The clock continues to tick though. Your mission it seems, is to laugh and make a mockery of God. You may enjoy it now, but everybody has an expiration date - and I just hope before then you do have regrets. May God have mercy on your soul.

Well the problem is that I can't TRUST someone who is evidenced to make decisions irrationally. So I am afraid I can not trust you.

[Ausinus]

A combination of coincidence and hallucination. Nothing more.

As for the argument that what happens to the bodies energy after we die? Heat loss, entropy, etc.

[Ape-Shit]

When I grow up I want to become a Baptist. That way I can say one thing and do another :) and all I have to do is ask God for forgiveness and everything will be ok. No Problems!

[who897]

Fear. Yall have failed to control others minds into believing as you do through your "facts". So, yall use fear of death, fear of uncertainty to try and convert people. Only a fool would fall for such a tactic, it's your last ditch effort, your big barreled gun, and it looks like your shooting blanks again.

Danger will robinson, Danger. A bunch of mind controled religious baboons are coming to a town near you. They will pass judgement, they will say obnotous things, they will come to your door and preach.......Danger Danger Danger.

[Ausinus]

Anyway, we dont have a soul, because if the soul was the source of our consciousness its either matter or energy, if it was matter we could detect it, and if it was energy it would bleed out due to entropy.

Oh and anyone who says it could be anti-matter (its happened to me before) you're wrong, because matter and antimatter annihlate each other when they come into contact.

[theicidal maniac]

Anyway, we dont have a soul, because if the soul was the source of our consciousness its either matter or energy, if it was matter we could detect it, and if it was energy it would bleed out due to entropy.

Oh and anyone who says it could be anti-matter (its happened to me before) you're wrong, because matter and antimatter annihlate each other when they come into contact.

plus anti-matter is easily detected; it's just a regular atom, with the reversed polarity of what would be expected. For instance, reverse the polarity of hydrogen and you get antihydrogen, which has actually been synthesized in small quantities in laboratories. The positron has the opposite charge but the same mass as the electron, so that allows the antimatter to be built. The photon (also known as Gamma radiation)is an antiparticle and is the elementary particle responsible for electromagnetic phenomena.

[who897]

plus anti-matter is easily detected; it's just a regular atom, with the reversed polarity of what would be expected. For instance, reverse the polarity of hydrogen and you get antihydrogen, which has actually been synthesized in small quantities in laboratories. The positron has the opposite charge but the same mass as the electron, so that allows the antimatter to be built. The photon (also known as Gamma radiation)is an antiparticle and is the elementary particle responsible for electromagnetic phenomena.

Ummm, what he said.

[General Septem]

Anyway, we dont have a soul, because if the soul was the source of our consciousness its either matter or energy, if it was matter we could detect it, and if it was energy it would bleed out due to entropy.

Oh and anyone who says it could be anti-matter (its happened to me before) you're wrong, because matter and antimatter annihlate each other when they come into contact.

Consciousness itself is neither matter nor energy either.

[Ausinus]

Its an effect of matter and energy.

[theicidal maniac]

Consciousness itself is neither matter nor energy either.

honestly no one can really say what consciousness is...he has a point there. but it is definitely linked to our energy. i think consciousness is only a highly evolved thought process, self-awareness is superior to blind processing evolutionarily speaking, cuz it'll keep you alive to breed, so it would be selected for.

[General Septem]

How can a series of electrochemical impulses lead to consciousness?

[Ausinus]

A variety of localized special functions within the brain. Each part of the brain has a special function, eg: The Amygdala processes and remembers emotional reactions. How do you explain the psychological effect tumors and strokes have?

Mind you, Im not a neuroscientist.:D

[General Septem]

A variety of localized special functions within the brain. Each part of the brain has a special function, eg: The Amygdala processes and remembers emotional reactions. How do you explain the psychological effect tumors and strokes have?

Mind you, Im not a neuroscientist.:D

But it's still a series of electrochemical impulses, and "because of the [insert medical name of random body part here]" is not a reason. I'm sure the brain has something to do with it, but consciousness? I mean, machines can eventually be programmed to reason, and think just like we do, and respond to emotions like we do, but no physical thing can ever create the sentience, the consciousness behind the chemical impulses.

[Ausinus]

I cant really answer your question fully, its very complex:D (see "why im not a neuroscientist" lol) I can try give an explanation to the best of my ability.

Basically, the electrical impulses and chemicals convey stimuli from the sensory organs to the brain. The reaction is formed from how the brain interprets the stimuli, which is in turn caused by how the cells in the brain link up. This is why we have instincts, some parts of the brain are already hooked up when we are born.

Theoretically machines, specifically AI, could achieve sentience, provided we create a complex enough network for them, or if it could create its own network.

[General Septem]

I cant really answer your question fully,

As far as I know, nobody can.


Basically, the electrical impulses and chemicals convey stimuli from the sensory organs to the brain. The reaction is formed from how the brain interprets the stimuli, which is in turn caused by how the cells in the brain link up. This is why we have instincts, some parts of the brain are already hooked up when we are born.

Theoretically machines, specifically AI, could achieve sentience, provided we create a complex enough network for them, or if it could create its own network.

This explains our actions and why we react the way we do, but what explains our awareness of these things?

The soul is just what we call the fact that we're not just machines with programmed albeit complex response patterns to various stimuli. Our senses don't just send information to our brain that we simply process, we experience it. I can't really even explain what it is that I'm talking about, I just call it the soul.

[Ausinus]

We are machines, complex biological machines.

[theicidal maniac]

But it's still a series of electrochemical impulses, and "because of the [insert medical name of random body part here]" is not a reason. I'm sure the brain has something to do with it, but consciousness? I mean, machines can eventually be programmed to reason, and think just like we do, and respond to emotions like we do, but no physical thing can ever create the sentience, the consciousness behind the chemical impulses.
Alan Turing would disagree

[Ausinus]

Ok Thei, you take over because I know very little about cognitive neuroscience.:D

[who897]

We are machines, complex biological machines.

You mean, the chemical reaction that happens to create electricity in my body to create movement makes me a machine....oohhhh the inhumanity. I guess it's good I have a fucking awsome processor on board. At least mine filters out all that jibberish of "god"

[theicidal maniac]

basically all it comes down to is this...we have a processor called a brain. So do dogs. Are dogs conscious?

If you answer yes, then do you believe dogs have their own dog-soul and their own dog-god (irrelevant here, but interesting), etc, then you move to mice. Mice have brains...are they conscious...and so on and so on until you get to amoeba or somewhere in between amoeba and dogs where your opinion (cuz that's all it is on THAT matter) is that the species in question IS NOT conscious. Then you answer "NO. No the bacteria is NOT conscious."

When you answer no, you have to look at that creature and realise that despite you assigning it a consciousness (or not) it does still have a processor of some sort. No one would say that plants are "conscious" but the fact that a Venus flytrap closes when it gets stimulus indicates a processor of some sort. If X and Y, then Z...

A processor helps it's holder interperet info, but what good is that? well, it tells it how to stay alive, food location, energy consumption, etc...But if it is AWARE of itself, then it knows that there is a SELF and there is an OTHER. This is HUGE, because you realize that IT wants to kill YOU, and you fight or fly.

Obviously this is a superior state of consciousness than just processing, so it will be selected by nat. selection.

As far as HOW it came about, well, that is the next obstacle for scientists. Unforunately that still isn't known, but it is widely believed to be possible to reproduce. I myself am pursuing a linguist's credentials, and would love to be part of an ongoing experiment to create a sentient being out of silicon-based processors.

regardless of all of this, the fact is that it is OK for an atheist to be spiritual, and ask, "do we have a non-physical consciousness, what is reality, how does my brain work etc...it's scientific inquiry and IT IS SPIRITUALITY. What name you are supposed to call god, and what Jesus or muhammad may or may not have done in their lives does not fall under the category "spiritual," because it isn't about self-reflection or honest, factual inquiry. It's ok to say, "we don't know.......yet".

[Ausinus]

I call you Sophus, the fount of all cognitive neurological knowledge:D

I didnt know much of this stuff, thanks. Im more into the psychology part of it:D

[theicidal maniac]

I call you Sophus, the fount of all cognitive neurological knowledge:D

I didnt know much of this stuff, thanks. Im more into the psychology part of it:D

Now if we could only use our powers to start a religion and get rich!

[Ausinus]

There is a psychological religion. Its called Oprahism!:D

[theicidal maniac]

There is a psychological religion. Its called Oprahism!:D

Good God, my wife is High Preistess! There was this lady on Oprah, she is an aussie, too, her name is priscilla dunstan and she says she has uncovered the "secret language of babies." Did you see that?

[Ausinus]

No but I have heard of it. It doesnt really sound that credible, but people are studying it.

[thememan]

Obviously this is a superior state of consciousness than just processing, so it will be selected by nat. selection.

As far as HOW it came about, well, that is the next obstacle for scientists. Unforunately that still isn't known, but it is widely believed to be possible to reproduce. I myself am pursuing a linguist's credentials, and would love to be part of an ongoing experiment to create a sentient being out of silicon-based processors.


Eh, to be technical, that is subjective. If you want to look at success, there are plenty of animals out there that are far more successful than humans, that we do not normally consider 'conscious' in the human sense.

As for how "consciousness" arose, there are a couple ideas, most dealing with the rise of intelligence as we began to walk upright, which in turn meant that those with more complex hands had more of an advantage(As before hands were used largely for locomotion, and couldn't be to terrible complex, I.E. the apposable thumb, excess nerve endings, etc which impede the ability of hands to be used for locomotion), which in turn meant that those with larger and more complex brains had an advantage(To work the hands more efficiently/more versatile uses), which led to higher intelligence. At least that's the going hypothesis, however there are others about.

[thememan]

No but I have heard of it. It doesnt really sound that credible, but people are studying it.

Well, depends on what they are calling "language". I'm quite certain that a baby's language area of the brain probably is not developed enough to form a complex language, but vocal patterns could be used for different stimuli that could be "universal", or more than likely natural reactions that a baby may come to associate with certain stimuli.

For instance, there was a study done a few years back with some monkeys. A biologist noticed that these monkeys reacted differently to different calls of another member of the monkey's group. Three seperate calls were noted, and recorded: One for jaguars, one for treesnakes, and one for the life of me I can't recall right now. When the Jaguar call was played to a group of the monkeys, they climbed the trees. When the snake one was played, they stayed on the ground, and looked through the canopy, and the third I forget, but meh you get the point. Obviously this isn't language, as they do not have a complex enough brain for it, however they are capable of associated certain calls with certain things. I'm thinking the same is going on here.

[theicidal maniac]

Well, depends on what they are calling "language". I'm quite certain that a baby's language area of the brain probably is not developed enough to form a complex language, but vocal patterns could be used for different stimuli that could be "universal", or more than likely natural reactions that a baby may come to associate with certain stimuli.

For instance, there was a study done a few years back with some monkeys. A biologist noticed that these monkeys reacted differently to different calls of another member of the monkey's group. Three seperate calls were noted, and recorded: One for jaguars, one for treesnakes, and one for the life of me I can't recall right now. When the Jaguar call was played to a group of the monkeys, they climbed the trees. When the snake one was played, they stayed on the ground, and looked through the canopy, and the third I forget, but meh you get the point. Obviously this isn't language, as they do not have a complex enough brain for it, however they are capable of associated certain calls with certain things. I'm thinking the same is going on here.

Well current lingistic theory holds that language is innate, including a deeper syntax, but sounds themselves are completely unconnected to meaning except by our own designs, so to say that babies have a LANGUAGE...It would HAVE to be reflexal...as in stomach pain triggers the glottis, or something like that.

As for your example, monkeys do have a language, but it is definitely not complex, but they are able to warn eachother of impending danger which exhibits a concept of future. But the example you used is an example of LEARNED traits, it doesn't really say anything about innate communication unless the monkees were raised in captivity.

[theicidal maniac]

as for Ms. Dunstan, she claims to have conducted 8 years of research at Brown University, but there is no public record of that that I can find, and every major linguistic organization that I have inquired to says they can't say for sure that she is full of shit without further testing, but....they think she is full of shit. Modern linguistic theory does not allow for any intrinsic meaning in specific sounds or sound combinations. Plus her 2 dvd's cost $59.95, so i guess you should be suspicious.

[thememan]

Plus her 2 dvd's cost $59.95, so i guess you should be suspicious.

I'm automatically suspicious of everything that is on Oprah's show. I don't trust a word anybody who goes on her show as far as I can throw Oprah(Not far).

[who897]

I'm automatically suspicious of everything that is on Oprah's show. I don't trust a word anybody who goes on her show as far as I can throw Oprah(Not far).


If you throw a piece of steak....she will go after it, wouldn't that be considered sorta throwing that fat talk show host?

[Ausinus]

I admire Oprah for her philanthropy.:D