Some Questions for Christians

[Ausinus]

1)Why do you selectively interpret the bible? You follow some of its tenets yet denounce others.
2) If you claim that the Old Testament is Jewish Law when you are criticised because of it, why include it in your bible?
3)Why do you include the letters of Paul in your New Testament? As far as I know, he never had contact with christ.
4)Is it not arrogant to claim that your religion is the one true faith and condemn everyone else to hell?
5)Why do you have statues of saints and of christ in your churches? Is that not idolatry?
6)Why do you not ordain women? Is it not your belief everyone is equal in the eyes of god?
7)You denounce the Gnostic Gospels as false. What makes them any less valid than the synoptic Gospels?
8)If the bible is the word of god, why there are so many contradictions found within it?
9)If your faith is the one true faith, why is it so derivative of other faiths, such as Judaism and many forms of paganism?
10)You claim that people die because we have free will. Why then, did god create diseases such as children's leukemia?
11) Explain why the Church, which is supposedly the bride of christ, has commited some of the most horrid acts in the history of humanity, such as the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Witch Trials.
12)According to your beliefs, God can do miracles, such as cure cancer. Explain why he does not dispense these miracles equally.
13)All humans supposedly carry the stain of original sin. Why are we punished for the sins of others?
14)How is it fair that an atheist can do a lot of good in the world, and go to hell for denouncing god, when a christian who does far less supposedly goes to heaven?
15)Why does god insist you worship him and only him? Is this not egomaniacal?
16) If god is all loving, why do we need to believe in him to be saved? Surely he loves us all unconditially.
17)What makes your religion any more valid than the other religions in the world? Especially since many religions are older than yours.
18)Why do you think it is fair for people to be punished in hell for all eternity? Think about how long eternity really is.
19)Why does the church spend so much money on beautification of churches? Wouldnt this money be better spent helping the poor?
20)Explain why you believe a christian nation is any better than a secular one. Additionally, explain how our freedoms, such as speech and religion, would be preserved in such a nation.

Mind you, whenever I mention god, it is hypothetical for the purpose of argument.

[General Septem]

Are these questions rhetorical or are you really interested in an answer?

[Superslayer]

Christian people does not really care so much about christianity. They just belive in a christian god.:cool:

[Ausinus]

Are these questions rhetorical or are you really interested in an answer?

I am looking for answers.

[beelzebub]

1)Why do you selectively interpret the bible? You follow some of its tenets yet denounce others.
2) If you claim that the Old Testament is Jewish Law when you are criticised because of it, why include it in your bible?
3)Why do you include the letters of Paul in your New Testament? As far as I know, he never had contact with christ.
4)Is it not arrogant to claim that your religion is the one true faith and condemn everyone else to hell?
5)Why do you have statues of saints and of christ in your churches? Is that not idolatry?
6)Why do you not ordain women? Is it not your belief everyone is equal in the eyes of god?
7)You denounce the Gnostic Gospels as false. What makes them any less valid than the synoptic Gospels?
8)If the bible is the word of god, why there are so many contradictions found within it?
9)If your faith is the one true faith, why is it so derivative of other faiths, such as Judaism and many forms of paganism?
10)You claim that people die because we have free will. Why then, did god create diseases such as children's leukemia?
11) Explain why the Church, which is supposedly the bride of christ, has commited some of the most horrid acts in the history of humanity, such as the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Witch Trials.
12)According to your beliefs, God can do miracles, such as cure cancer. Explain why he does not dispense these miracles equally.
13)All humans supposedly carry the stain of original sin. Why are we punished for the sins of others?
14)How is it fair that an atheist can do a lot of good in the world, and go to hell for denouncing god, when a christian who does far less supposedly goes to heaven?
15)Why does god insist you worship him and only him? Is this not egomaniacal?
16) If god is all loving, why do we need to believe in him to be saved? Surely he loves us all unconditially.
17)What makes your religion any more valid than the other religions in the world? Especially since many religions are older than yours.
18)Why do you think it is fair for people to be punished in hell for all eternity? Think about how long eternity really is.
19)Why does the church spend so much money on beautification of churches? Wouldnt this money be better spent helping the poor?
20)Explain why you believe a christian nation is any better than a secular one. Additionally, explain how our freedoms, such as speech and religion, would be preserved in such a nation.

Mind you, whenever I mention god, it is hypothetical for the purpose of argument.

Lovely............. where are the answers? You would think that the x-tians on this forum would be jumping on this like white on rice!

[who897]

Hmm it would apear they are having a consurtium of fellow "xians" to try and mount a rebutal. So unlike them.

[theicidal maniac]

Hmm it would apear they are having a consurtium of fellow "xians" to try and mount a rebutal. So unlike them.

Let's not hold our breath for anything that might have substance. Why do we waste our time with these people? Oh well, it is fun to point out their rediculous bullshit, that's why I'm here!

[Ausinus]

Well you cant spell fundamentalist with out fun :D

[General Septem]

Haha, yes, under normal circumstances I'd be jumping on these, but such a vast multi-point post tends to create a big stream of large replies, something we already have going on in two other threads. I'll probably get on these later today.

[MrBirdy]

budha says "just becouse one religion claims it is the true religion, that does not mean all other religions arent true..."

mr bird sez "how can a man that weighs 600 pounds have the balls to teach about self disipline?"

[Ausinus]

Ok the fact no one has attempted to answer these questions is quite..............okashii.

[theicidal maniac]

Ok the fact no one has attempted to answer these questions is quite..............okashii.

The problem is everyone knows the answer, but religion is a drug, and the people who have problems don't wanna talk about it...it's called denial.

[ajk]

The problem is everyone knows the answer, but religion is a drug, and the people who have problems don't wanna talk about it...it's called denial.

I'd say you are the ones in denial.

[Ausinus]

I'd say you are the ones in denial.

There are no atheists in foxholes? Do you know how offensive that is to me, especially since my atheist grandfather spend weeks in a foxhole?

And its not true, its just bullshit. We arent born christian, we are born without prognosis. You can be raised christian.

Answer the questions then.

[theicidal maniac]

There are no atheists in foxholes? Do you know how offensive that is to me, especially since my atheist grandfather spend weeks in a foxhole?

And its not true, its just bullshit. We arent born christian, we are born without prognosis. You can be raised christian.

Answer the questions then.

I think you could actually take that quote about foxholes as a compliment. Religion is a source of much violence past and present. Anyone who thinks God is on their side is gonna think their own enemies are also Gods enemies. If there are no atheists in foxholes it is only because they actually VALUE human life...

[theicidal maniac]

afterall, what's to stop you from killing someone who you believe is EVIL if you believe you will be sending them to a judgement which they themselves earned?

[General Septem]

afterall, what's to stop you from killing someone who you believe is EVIL if you believe you will be sending them to a judgement which they themselves earned?

How about "thou shall not commit murder"

[Ausinus]

I despise it. It basically means every non christian is just suppressing their original faith; christianity. Its BULLLSHIT. Ok, we are born faithless, and you can be raised in a faith.

[theicidal maniac]

How about "thou shall not commit murder"

How about "he who is not with me is against me."
followed up with the deuteronomical instruction to kill all those who are not WITH your God?

How about THAT?

[Ausinus]

How about "thou shall not commit murder"

Its thou shalt not kill. And like any law, its open to interpretation as it is not explicit. You could interpret it to say that "thou shalt not kill people who believe in god".

[General Septem]

How about "he who is not with me is against me."
followed up with the deuteronomical instruction to kill all those who are not WITH your God?

How about THAT?

How about all the references in the New Testament that say "judge not, lest ye be judged"?

[ajk]

Its thou shalt not kill. And like any law, its open to interpretation as it is not explicit. You could interpret it to say that "thou shalt not kill people who believe in god".

How is that open to interpretation? Thou shalt not kill, means exactly what it means, we are not kill another life.

[theicidal maniac]

How about all the references in the New Testament that say "judge not, lest ye be judged"?

The fact that you can find contradictory verses negates that altogether.

[theicidal maniac]

How is that open to interpretation? Thou shalt not kill, means exactly what it means, we are not kill another life.

AJK go grab your bible and read Deuteronomy 13...start with verse 6

[Ausinus]

How is that open to interpretation? Thou shalt not kill, means exactly what it means, we are not kill another life.

Its way too vague. If it says that "thou shalt not kill anyone, under any circumstances", then it would be that. Otherwise its an open law. It doesnt specify who you shouldnt kill, or if you are allowed to for extenuating circumstances.

In fact, this very line and others was used to justify the crusades.

[ajk]

Its way too vague. If it says that "thou shalt not kill anyone, under any circumstances", then it would be that. Otherwise its an open law. It doesnt specify who you shouldnt kill, or if you are allowed to for extenuating circumstances.

Does it really have to? Thou shalt not kill means thou shalt not kill how do you not get that?

[theicidal maniac]

AJK, stop being a pussy and go grab your bible and read Deuteronomy 13...start with verse 6

[ajk]

I did read it. But in each case there, there was a reason for the killing. Nowadays there really isn't a good reason for murder.

[Ausinus]

Yes it does need to be clear and specific about who you shouldnt kill, if you are allowed exception due to circumstances, etc. A better version would be -

"Thou shalt not kill anyone, regardless of race or creed, at any time, save for the circumstances in which the killed poses a great threat to others."

[ajk]

Yes it does, it needs to be clear and specific about who you shouldnt kill, if you are allowed exception due to circumstances, etc. A better version would be

"Thou shalt not kill anyone, regardless of race or creed, at any time, save for the circumstances in which the killed poses a great threat to others."

Well if you want some modern translations to the statement, you can find them here:

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/notkill.html#02

have to scroll down to the bottom

[Ausinus]

Once again, those translations are still open ended laws. Like the one "thou shalt not kill without cause", does not specify which causes, or the extremities of said causes, that qualify for exemption from this law.

[who897]

What happens if you with someone and they are impaled with something, and get a broken leg. There is no water around, they can't move and your more then 11 days from civilization. They ask you to kill them to stop their misery...why should you be allowed to kill them then huh. I'd kill the prick, shouldn't have fallen.

[ajk]

Once again, those translations are still open ended laws. Like the one "thou shalt not kill without cause", does not specify which causes, or the extremities of said causes, that qualify for exemption from this law.

It shouldn't have to. It is what it is and that's all there is to it. Not my fault you can't accept it.

[Ausinus]

What happens if you with someone and they are impaled with something, and get a broken leg. There is no water around, they can't move and your more then 11 days from civilization. They ask you to kill them to stop their misery...why should you be allowed to kill them then huh. I'd kill the prick, shouldn't have fallen.

It depends if a court interprets it as murder or euthanasia. Once again, thou shalt not kill is too open ended to make a definitive statement. Its definition would be only a common law one.

[theicidal maniac]

I did read it. But in each case there, there was a reason for the killing. Nowadays there really isn't a good reason for murder.

You didn't read it.

There isn't an "each case."

It says that you MUST kill anyone who speaks to you of another God, even if they be your own family. It says YOUR HAND MUST BE FIRST UPON THEM.

It says to find out where they came from and DESTROY THE CITIES that support those other beliefs. You are even to DESTROY THEIR CATTLE!

[who897]

It shouldn't have to. It is what it is and that's all there is to it. Not my fault you can't accept it.

It's not our fault that your book is retarted and contradicts itself and yall only pick and choose what you want from it. Should just throw the thing away, it makes you look silly.

[Ausinus]

It shouldn't have to. It is what it is and that's all there is to it. Not my fault you can't accept it.

A statuatory law has to provide clarity and specification. Otherwise the other factors would be left up to common law, in which case it doesnt merit being statute law. If it was an acceptable law, it should state

-The defintion of murder
-The degrees of murder
-Who it applies to
-The punishment(s) for it
-Any extenuating circumstances (such as self defense)

Amongst other things. This is why we cannot have your biblical laws as laws, many of them are contradictory, outdated, offensive to minorities and far too open to intepretation.

[theicidal maniac]

Also Deut 2 says at God's instructions the Israelites "utterly destroyed the men, women, and the little ones" leaving "none to remain." Speaking here of non-believers, whose only "crimes" are not calling God by the name Yahweh.

[theicidal maniac]

Genesis 38:8-10

"Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. " -- http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

[who897]

Genesis 38:8-10

"Judah tells Onan to "go in unto they brother's wife." But "Onan knew that the seed should not be his; and ... when he went in unto his brother's wife ... he spilled it on the ground.... And the thing which he did displeased the Lord; wherefore he slew him also." This lovely Bible story is seldom read in Sunday School, but it is the basis of many Christian doctrines, including the condemnation of both masturbation and birth control. " -- http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/long.html

If that were the case, I would have been killed by "god" well, let's just say, a lot.

[LolPwned]

Ok, I have been reading this thread for a while, and I have this to say.

Ajk and Septem, you give a bad name to christians. Your conservatism has cast people of our faith as ignorant and fascist.

[General Septem]

Ok, I have been reading this thread for a while, and I have this to say.

Ajk and Septem, you give a bad name to christians. Your conservatism has cast people of our faith as ignorant and fascist.
Me? Why, because I'm against same sex marriage or what?

How many fucking times have I had to say I'm completely and entirely against any form of control whatsoever? I just believe certain things are wrong. I'd love nothing more than to see every politician on the face of the planet filled with more bullets than the Earth has lead for.

[LolPwned]

You would be controlling women by denying them abortion, and controlling homosexuals by denying them marriage.

[General Septem]

You would be controlling women by denying them abortion, and controlling homosexuals by denying them marriage.

I never said anything about denying anyone anything. Aren't you paying attention? Didn't you read what I just said about me being an anarchist and not liking any politician? I'm not controlling anyone. For bollocks sake, I'm writing a book about a rebellion against a government that controlled people.

[LolPwned]

Anarchist hmm? You do realise that anarchy will never work.

[General Septem]

Anarchist hmm? You do realise that anarchy will never work.

No, I am an idealist anarchist. I believe we should do the right thing for the sake of doing what's right, because what's right will benefit society, not because of the law.

[LolPwned]

It is important to follow the law, without it we have a society where everyone does what they want without consequence.

[General Septem]

It is important to follow the law, without it we have a society where everyone does what they want without consequence.

That's where the part about people doing what they believe is right for the sake of doing right comes in. Anarchy is basically freedom in its purest form.

[LolPwned]

That will never work, without consequence there will be no incentive for people to not do bad. It will be a society where the physically strongest will dominate the weaker, knowledge will be lost because of this and we will be plunged into a third dark age.

Anarchy cannot work, as humans have always followed a hierarchy.

[General Septem]

That will never work, without consequence there will be no incentive for people to not do bad. It will be a society where the physically strongest will dominate the weaker, knowledge will be lost and we will be plunged into a third dark age.

Anarchy cannot work, as humans have always followed a hierarchy.

...thus the reason why it's an idealism.

[LolPwned]

Why waste time dreaming of what you cannot have? It is ok to say "it would be nice" but to espouse it as a philosophy?

[General Septem]

Why waste time dreaming of what you cannot have? It is ok to say "it would be nice" but to espouse it as a philosophy?
Because ideals are often a starting place to base reality off of.

[LolPwned]

Unfortunatley that reality can never be achieved.

[General Septem]

Unfortunatley that reality can never be achieved.

I think you're missing the point. What I'm saying is that even though idealistic plans may never happen, they make the foundation for real life solutions. Kind of like saying, "this would be ideal, but what can we do to make its benefits a reality?".

[LolPwned]

There are no benefits of anarchy.

[who897]

Seems like you two are perfect for each other, difficult.

[Ausinus]

Who's the new person?

[who897]

Who's the new person?

Nope, I'm the old person buddy.

[Ausinus]

Not you, the new person LolPwned.

[who897]

Got me, I was just chuckling at the arguements.

[Ausinus]

Why did I even post this if no ones going to answer it?

[theicidal maniac]

I'd love nothing more than to see every politician on the face of the planet filled with more bullets than the Earth has lead for.


Ahhh, how the power of Christ compells him....God, my friends, truly IS love!

[theicidal maniac]

I never said anything about denying anyone anything. Aren't you paying attention? Didn't you read what I just said about me being an anarchist and not liking any politician? I'm not controlling anyone. For bollocks sake, I'm writing a book about a rebellion against a government that controlled people.

Yeah didn't you read...HE'S a rebel...just like his posts claim. I bet that books gonna be a doozy...might even make enough to get him out of Mom and Dad's basement and into a nice cozy flat of his own.

[General Septem]

Yeah didn't you read...HE'S a rebel...just like his posts claim. I bet that books gonna be a doozy...might even make enough to get him out of Mom and Dad's basement and into a nice cozy flat of his own.

See, this is why I'm good at arguing and you suck at it. I don't resort to character assassination.

[General Septem]

Ahhh, how the power of Christ compells him....God, my friends, truly IS love!

If your leader happens to be Adolf Hitler, and killing him is the only way to stop his reign, then it may well be an act of love towards all the people he's fucking in the ass.

[who897]

Why did I even post this if no ones going to answer it?

Perhaps they thought it rhetorical. (which makes me wonder now if I spelled that right :D )

[theicidal maniac]

If your leader happens to be Adolf Hitler, and killing him is the only way to stop his reign, then it may well be an act of love towards all the people he's fucking in the ass.

Ahhh...I see...so through YOUR religion you are able to justify murder...wait isn't that what I've always said? I was actually referring to your staement of seeing all politicians murdered for (presumably) the crime of being a politician. Combine that attitude with your racist ramblings the other day and I'd say YOU are starting to sound like Hitler.

[General Septem]

Ahhh...I see...so through YOUR religion you are able to justify murder...wait isn't that what I've always said? I was actually referring to your staement of seeing all politicians murdered for (presumably) the crime of being a politician. Combine that attitude with your racist ramblings the other day and I'd say YOU are starting to sound like Hitler.

It's not murder if there was a justifiable cause.

If you think politicians are not criminals, I must ask if you would like Kool-Aid with that.

[Ausinus]

Not all politicians are criminals. Paul Keating, Gough Whitlam, Hillary Clinton, FDR, Winston Churchill, amongst others.

[General Septem]

Not all politicians are criminals. Paul Keating, Gough Whitlam, Hillary Clinton, FDR, Winston Churchill, amongst others.

Did you just say Hilary Clinton is not a criminal? Do you know a damn thing about New York State (of which she is senator) law compared to other states?

[Ausinus]

Explain please.

[General Septem]

Explain please.

She's highly pro gun control (bad sign for any politician) for starters. New York City has some of the strictest gun control laws in the country. The age laws are some of the most whacked, weed is illegal (it's legal in some parts of the country), the war on drugs (modern prohibition) is highly prevalent here, and the police are assholes, for starters.

[Ausinus]

So? I can see why, New York is a den of crime. Additionally, if thats the only bad point you can find about her, then shes not a criminal.

[General Septem]

So? I can see why, New York is a den of crime. Additionally, if thats the only bad point you can find about her, then shes not a criminal.
What? The only? I listed several things. And I have a right to carry a gun because I don't wish to be a victim of that crime.

Gun Control:

Implied meaning: Reducing crime by keeping guns out of the hands of would-be criminals.

Actual meaning: A shitty, chaotic idea that criminals disregard anyway, that has no purpose but to keep guns out of the hands of potential victims.

[Ausinus]

Most politicians are way worse than her. Shes not perfect, but then, who is?

[General Septem]

Most politicians are way worse than her. Shes not perfect, but then, who is?

Most people are at least slightly more perfect than her, and that's an important quality when the fate of all mankind is one's hands.

[Ausinus]

Most people, bullshit. She is way better than many others.

And you havent disputed the other politicians, which I take as a sign that you cant.

[General Septem]

Most people, bullshit. She is way better than many others.

And you havent disputed the other politicians, which I take as a sign that you cant.

Most of your list are just your average run-of-the-mill politicians who had some corruption on the side and what have you. FDR doesn't count because America was still a free country back then. But... Hilary? A good person? Are you insane?

[Ausinus]

No. I wonder why so many americans hate her? I mean, a lot of us like her, especially since she did that hilarious thing to our PM's wife.

[General Septem]

No. I wonder why so many americans hate her? I mean, a lot of us like her, especially since she did that hilarious thing to our PM's wife.

Maybe her name should be changed to Hilarious Clinton, because she's a joke. Take it from someone who's had her as a first lady and a Senator. The only way she could've possibly won the last election is because most of the people voting for her are from downstate New York, which includes Long Island and a few of the counties at the bottom tip of the State.

[theicidal maniac]

It's not murder if there was a justifiable cause.

If you think politicians are not criminals, I must ask if you would like Kool-Aid with that.

and the justification lies in your beliefs...for example, if I believe you are stealing my thoughts then in my own head I may be "justified" in taking you down. That doesn't make it ok...and if I believe that you are stealing my thoughts, well, that is no more or less verifiable than the belief in a sky-god

And while I agree that many politicians are crooks, BEING a politician is not a crime, and does not, therefore, make you a criminal.

[TheAvenger]

If you kill someone, it IS MURDER, no matter how much "justification" you try to lend to it.

A muslim extremist once murdered 3000 people, because the government of those who he killed, started wars, that killed thousands of his people. this muslim extremist honestly believes that he was "justified" in killing 3000 people, because he considered that foreign government to be evil.

The muslim extremist:
osama bin laden

His "justified" killing exhibition:
September 11th, 2001

The evil government: The United States of America Government.

See how dangerous "justifying" someone's death is??

What IS Justification?
How do you DEFINE justification?

Your justification is someone else's cruel injustice.

Let The Creator be the Terminator......or be an arrogant hypocrite.

(This post isnt meant for anyone in particular. It's only purpose was to show how dangerous people can be when they *think* that they are free to hurt/kill their fellow living beings.)

[Ausinus]

Killing with mens rea is murder, if it is not with intent or in self defense then it is manslaughter. Also there is euthanasia.

[yea_thats_right1]

Killing with mens rea is murder, if it is not with intent or in self defense then it is manslaughter. Also there is euthanasia.

i think we have gotten slightly off topic.... Ausinus had some very valid points when he started this thread.... ii would LOVE to see some answers... mostly from AJK... and they should be well thought out.. not "god says its wrong"...... :D

[Ausinus]

Why thanks yea. :D

Not one person has attempted to answer my questions. YES PEOPLE I WANT VALID ANSWERS!

[yea_thats_right1]

call me cristy... "yea" just sounds weird lol

[theicidal maniac]

call me cristy... "yea" just sounds weird lol

How bout Christ-y?

[yea_thats_right1]

haha you are SO funny... :)

[theicidal maniac]

Why thanks yea. :D

Not one person has attempted to answer my questions. YES PEOPLE I WANT VALID ANSWERS!

that's cuz the question was addressed to religious people, and religion doesn't provide valid answers, only far-fetched speculation

[yea_thats_right1]

true but i would also like to see what theycan come up with... it would be very interesting

[theicidal maniac]

true but i would also like to see what theycan come up with... it would be very interesting

I dunno but i guarantee it'd be nothing but regurgitation...you notice how these guys all use the same lame excuses (that's why I say "guys" not "people"...cuz, let's face it, lame excuses is what we're all about....but these are the lamest of the lame) and we keep showing them their error time and time again...but they refuse to let go...that's why religion is just a filthy disease infested security blanket and should be traded to indians for 200 acres of land....OOPS!...I MEAN BURNED. The blanket should be burned.

[Ausinus]

Should we start counting down to a victory? :D

[theicidal maniac]

Should we start counting down to a victory? :D

sure let's do it!

3

2

1......

[General Septem]

I'd normally be on this question immediately, but for a variety of reasons I'm not. First, if I "cave in" and answer because you say I'm wrong if I don't answer, then that's putting power in your hands that you don't deserve.

But mainly I don't think you want to hear the answers. I think you're just interested in an argument. I think that no matter what answer I give you, you'll still argue with them, just like you've always done.

Blame it on "theicidal maniac". I'll be glad when he goes away again, then I'll start debating again. In the mean time, I'm not getting into anything right now because I'm not interested in any of his responses. He's not here to debate, he's here to tell everyone why they're wrong. It makes him feel superior.

[theicidal maniac]

Blame it on "theicidal maniac". I'll be glad when he goes away again, then I'll start debating again. In the mean time, I'm not getting into anything right now because I'm not interested in any of his responses. He's not here to debate, he's here to tell everyone why they're wrong. It makes him feel superior.

So I made you give up? So i really DID win? Whoa. Ya know, Genny, I know you are upset that there is yet another person here who sees through your dogmatic garble, but that's no reason to give up. I'm not here just to tell people they are wrong...just the people who ARE wrong, like you. If you'll notice, I don't do it to everyone else. Tell ya what...why don't you just put me on your "ignore" list and pretend I'm not there anymore.

[ajk]

I'm not here just to tell people they are wrong...just the people who ARE wrong, like you.

I think that is General's point. No matter what he says, you'll find something to argue about.

[yea_thats_right1]

aww come on ajk... enlighten me at least :) i cant come up with anything really

[General Septem]

aww come on ajk... enlighten me at least :) i cant come up with anything really

Perhaps I can "enlighten" you ;)

[yea_thats_right1]

oh really?

[General Septem]

oh really?

Perhaps. ;)

[yea_thats_right1]

haha :)

[yea_thats_right1]

and for the record.. i believe that god... well i believe hes an alien from a distant galaxy. What do you think about that!

[who897]

I live my life how I want to live it. I have no boundries set except what I set for myself. There is no diety restricting my pursuit of happiness, there is no diety preventing me from enjoying every moment of my life. I look at the religious as handcuffed in life, they are slaves to a book. You can never truely find happiness until you totally let go of this totally unnecissary group of rules set up by an imaginary thing.

[yea_thats_right1]

very insightful

[General Septem]

To be perfectly honest, I live by my own rules. I just happen to set my rules by what I believe is right. But Goodness is so powerful I believe it must flow from a spiritual entity, God.

By the same token, evil is the same way, although evil doesn't "flow" because it doesn't exist. It is a lack of existence, and Satan is the one draining it. It's like a virus.

[Ausinus]

Talk about fallacious connections.

[who897]

To be perfectly honest, I live by my own rules. I just happen to set my rules by what I believe is right. But Goodness is so powerful I believe it must flow from a spiritual entity, God.

By the same token, evil is the same way, although evil doesn't "flow" because it doesn't exist. It is a lack of existence, and Satan is the one draining it. It's like a virus.

You limit yourself and your happiness by letting something stand in the way of your progress. Smile be happy, have sex, die....it's what it's about LOL

[ajk]

You have no idea what it's about.

[something]

You limit yourself and your happiness by letting something stand in the way of your progress. Smile be happy, have sex, die....it's what it's about LOL

You also have to eat.

[theicidal maniac]

I live my life how I want to live it. I have no boundries set except what I set for myself. There is no diety restricting my pursuit of happiness, there is no diety preventing me from enjoying every moment of my life. I look at the religious as handcuffed in life, they are slaves to a book. You can never truely find happiness until you totally let go of this totally unnecissary group of rules set up by an imaginary thing.

Not only is it a handcuffed life, but as a religious person it is your DUTY to spread the word, and vote the way you think God would have you vote, so you end up trying to shackle everyone else, too, taking the mindset that if someone doesn't believe in God they deserve to be shackled anyway. What a load of crap...

[Ausinus]

Its why I dont like prosyletizing religion. Im ok with Buddhism, because it is basically a personal faith and you keep it to yourself rather than "trying to spread the word".

[ICU]

The bible is a very good source of rules for human kind to live by. In my understanding, if everyone on earth abode in those rules and with time transformed into a new creature, the world would be a beautiful place. 5000 years recorded in the bible clearly shows how God works thru people. The battle of good and evil is within all of human kind. It is up to each and everyone to choose which team they want to be on. Surely the ones that choose God, will pay the price of persecution on earth but thru it they will build Castles in Heaven.... And the reward, my friends, I can only imagine, will be far greater than all the rewards that we can have here on earth.

I pray for all of you that have not chosen God as your Father, that someday you will by any means understand the true meaning of LIFE.

God Bless You All.. :)

[ajk]

Amen to that Brother! (or Sister) I pray for the very same.

[ineedcoffee]

Good questions. I have asked some of these myself...

I didn't read all 11 pages (or however many there were) of posts to see if somebody actually answered the questions. But - here goes. And yes, I'm a Christian - as in I believe in Jesus and try to follow his example in my life. I am NOT a Christian (and I think Jesus would be embarrassed to be called one as well) if you're referring to those preachers you see on TV).

1)Why do you selectively interpret the bible? You follow some of its tenets yet denounce others.

I don't. I may not understand all of it, but I denounce none of it. The Bible is a story of the history of Christianity - not a rule book.

2) If you claim that the Old Testament is Jewish Law when you are criticised because of it, why include it in your bible?

Don't totally understand your question, but the old testament is the foundation for the new testament - it's part of the history.

3)Why do you include the letters of Paul in your New Testament? As far as I know, he never had contact with christ.

He didn't. Paul's writings are examples of the methods and ideas of one of the early followers of "Christianity". I wish we had more writings from a wider variety of people from back then... For me, the words and actions of Jesus are the most important. Paul's writings are simply the opinions of a man, his understanding of how he felt followers of Jesus should live.

4)Is it not arrogant to claim that your religion is the one true faith and condemn everyone else to hell?

Yes it is. That's why I don't make such a claim. Neither did Jesus - at least not the condemning to hell part. And he didn't come here to start a religion. Other people did that, despite what Jesus taught them. He really didn't like religion very much.

5)Why do you have statues of saints and of christ in your churches? Is that not idolatry?

I don't. And yes it is idolatry.

6)Why do you not ordain women? Is it not your belief everyone is equal in the eyes of god?

I don't ordain anybody. And yes, everyone is equal...

7)You denounce the Gnostic Gospels as false. What makes them any less valid than the synoptic Gospels?

I don't denounce them. I haven't even read them. Maybe I should...

8)If the bible is the word of god, why there are so many contradictions found within it?

Contradictions are the result of poor translations, many years of people misunderstanding the Bible, and completely missing the point of the gospel of Jesus. Is the Bible the word of God? Maybe... I think it contains the Words of God, but also the words of a lot of people who were trying to serve God the best they knew how. Also, too many people (especially Christians) don't understand the context in which some things in the Bible were written thousands of years ago. They try to understand literally things that were meant to be understood metaphorically.

9)If your faith is the one true faith, why is it so derivative of other faiths, such as Judaism and many forms of paganism?

My faith is in Jesus. Not in my faith or my religion. Religion is derivative of other faiths. Jesus is derivative of Judaism because he was a Jew.

10)You claim that people die because we have free will. Why then, did god create diseases such as children's leukemia?

People die because that's the way the cycle goes. I don't believe God created diseases. He created the system we call the universe, and started up the "engine" by which all things were created, and then themselves create more things (which Darwin called Evolution). It's just a part of God's bigger system. Diseases seem to just be another part of the process. That's one of the things I plan on asking God about in more detail sometime...

11) Explain why the Church, which is supposedly the bride of christ, has commited some of the most horrid acts in the history of humanity, such as the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Witch Trials.

Because they were wrong. Very wrong. About very many things...

12)According to your beliefs, God can do miracles, such as cure cancer. Explain why he does not dispense these miracles equally.

I can't... except that God is not a "big guy" out there somewhere playing games. He started the whole process of history, and he wants to see it through. Too many miracles messes up the system.

13)All humans supposedly carry the stain of original sin. Why are we punished for the sins of others?

We aren't. We are supposed to be punished fro our own sins - since none of us can avoid sinning. Fortunately Jesus did it for us.

14)How is it fair that an atheist can do a lot of good in the world, and go to hell for denouncing god, when a christian who does far less supposedly goes to heaven?

I'm not sure that is true - despite what many "Christians" will try to tell you. I think a LOT of Christians will be surprised when the finally are face to face with God.

15)Why does god insist you worship him and only him? Is this not egomaniacal?

For a human, yes, it would be egomaniacal. For God, no. He is God, there is nobody above him. The problem is our understanding of the word "worship". I see it as more along the lines of respect and honour...

16) If god is all loving, why do we need to believe in him to be saved? Surely he loves us all unconditially.

He does love us all unconditionally. That means "no conditions".

17)What makes your religion any more valid than the other religions in the world? Especially since many religions are older than yours.

I don't believe in religion. Christianity - the religion - is not what Jesus was about.

18)Why do you think it is fair for people to be punished in hell for all eternity? Think about how long eternity really is.

It isn't fair. That's why they won't be. Jesus never taught that they would be. Anybody that says he did, hasn't really research the original meanings of his words.

19)Why does the church spend so much money on beautification of churches? Wouldnt this money be better spent helping the poor?

Because they have completely missed the point. Yes, they should be helping the poor. If Jesus were on earth today, that's what he would be doing on Sunday morning instead of sitting at church.

Actually, that's what I've committed my life to doing.

20)Explain why you believe a christian nation is any better than a secular one. Additionally, explain how our freedoms, such as speech and religion, would be preserved in such a nation.

It isn't. There is no such thing as a Christian nation. There are religious nations - and they all have huge problems.

[Ausinus]

The bible is a very good source of rules for human kind to live by. In my understanding, if everyone on earth abode in those rules and with time transformed into a new creature, the world would be a beautiful place. 5000 years recorded in the bible clearly shows how God works thru people. The battle of good and evil is within all of human kind. It is up to each and everyone to choose which team they want to be on. Surely the ones that choose God, will pay the price of persecution on earth but thru it they will build Castles in Heaven.... And the reward, my friends, I can only imagine, will be far greater than all the rewards that we can have here on earth.

I pray for all of you that have not chosen God as your Father, that someday you will by any means understand the true meaning of LIFE.

God Bless You All.. :)

Yes, permitting slavery and denying the rights of gays and women are VERY good rules to follow.

[ajk]

Gays have rights, just the same as anyone else. We don't restrict them, they restrict themselves.

For women it's the same thing (outside of rape cases). By choosing to have sex when they aren't ready for a child, they are restricting themselves should they get pregnant. We don't make the choice, they are the ones that made the choice ahead of time.

[theicidal maniac]

So the commandment in Deuteronomy 13 to kill anyone who believes differently than you do...that is a good rule to live by?

Multiple wives...that's a good rule to live by?

Removing your eyeballs if they show you something that contradicts your faith...that's a good rule?

[ajk]

In terms of the eyes thing, as General said in another thread is not meant to be taken literally. It means such as stuff like the PC for instance. If it's causing you to sin you should turn it off, turn off the eye as it were.

[ICU]

Thru Jesus, even a slave is free. :) I am not to judge anyone, but I pray for gay people, that they receive Jesus and be set free from all sin. I also believe in equality and I believe that men and women are equal in the eyes of God.

God Bless. :)

[ICU]

So the commandment in Deuteronomy 13 to kill anyone who believes differently than you do...that is a good rule to live by?

Multiple wives...that's a good rule to live by?

Removing your eyeballs if they show you something that contradicts your faith...that's a good rule?

Hi...

Killing is a sin.

Poligamy is a sin.

Removing your eyeballs - eg. If you watch r rated movies you are sinning. There is nothing constructive about watching violence, sex or any other R rated content on TV. Therefore 'removing your eyeballs' simply means not to watch any R rated TV.

God Bless.. :)

[who897]

If your in heaven...why would you need a castle?
If you think religion is such a great way of life....why don't you move to the middle east?
If Jesus comes back.....I'll kill him again!
Every time you see a rainbow.....god is having gay sex!
If you think you don't discriminate against women why wont you let them in the draft or put them in front line combat units?
If people are of their actions....why judge the actions of a gay person?
If you could do us all a favor open a dictionary and find the word hypocritical and figure out why you are one.
Let society progress, don't be the burden who holds everyone else back, we almost didn't make it outta the dark ages because of folks like you.

[theicidal maniac]

In terms of the eyes thing, as General said in another thread is not meant to be taken literally. It means such as stuff like the PC for instance. If it's causing you to sin you should turn it off, turn off the eye as it were.

You realize that this was written BEFORE the PC was invented, right?

[theicidal maniac]

Hi...

Killing is a sin.

Poligamy is a sin.

Removing your eyeballs - eg. If you watch r rated movies you are sinning. There is nothing constructive about watching violence, sex or any other R rated content on TV. Therefore 'removing your eyeballs' simply means not to watch any R rated TV.

God Bless.. :)

Yet all of these are commandments that appear in the Bible...and not even the parts that you Christians cut out...these things can be found in the Christian Bible. Also talking back to your parents and gathering firewood on the sabbath is punishable by death in your "holy" book. THIS is your great moral compass??? I think it's broke...

[ajk]

I realize that of course, but I was giving practical application in terms of it's meaning.

[theicidal maniac]

I realize that of course, but I was giving practical application in terms of it's meaning.

I would think that you would believe that THE WAY JESUS said it would be practical. He didn't say, "if your eye offends you, pluck it out, metaphorically speaking that is." He said (supposedly) that if your eye offends you you should pluck it out, because it's better to be blind in heaven than have sight in hell for all eternity for ever and ever and ever. Man god sure is unforgiving...eternal punishment for momentary weakness...weaknesses that , if he designed us, he is responsible for.

[ajk]

Again common sense would dictate that he could not be literal in that case. It's obvious, just think about it. And again He is not responsible for anything, we are ultimately responsible and accountable for what we do.

[theicidal maniac]

Again common sense would dictate that he could not be literal in that case. It's obvious, just think about it. And again He is not responsible for anything, we are ultimately responsible and accountable for what we do.

Common sense and deductive logic would allow us to conclude that birth to a virgin should not be taken literally, either, so I'm afraid you can't use "common sense" as an argument...it actually NEGATES your argument.

[General Septem]

Removing your eyeballs if they show you something that contradicts your faith...that's a good rule?

This is why I don't like debating with you. I hear you better than you hear me, and I have you blocked.

[theicidal maniac]

This is why I don't like debating with you. I hear you better than you hear me, and I have you blocked.

Yeah sorry about that...I heard a guy say a swear so my god demanded that I cut off my own ears. God is great!

[starry123nights]

Quote:
Originally Posted by General Septem
This is why I don't like debating with you. I hear you better than you hear me, and I have you blocked.

The theicidal maniac's reply was:
Yeah sorry about that...I heard a guy say a swear so my god demanded that I cut off my own ears. God is great!
__________________
We are all atheists about most of the gods that societies have ever believed in. Some of us just go one god further...The time has come for people of reason to say: enough is enough. Religious faith discourages independent thought, it's divisive, and it's dangerous.
---Richard Dawkins


Here is another example of why I find it pointless to debate with theicidal maniac

[ajk]

To be honest I agree, it's incredibly tough to debate with these people. They don't seem to get it.

[theicidal maniac]

To be honest I agree, it's incredibly tough to debate with these people. They don't seem to get it.

THESE PEOPLE??? THESE people? AJK, you argues last night that the Earth is flat...it's gonna be tough for you to debate with ANYONE of the slightest intellectual capacity.

[who897]

What do you mean "THESE PEOPLE"? You think your race is superior to us people? You racist!

[ineedcoffee]

To be honest I agree, it's incredibly tough to debate with these people. They don't seem to get it.

What don't "they" get? They have good questions that you have yet to answer with any kind of comprehensible answer (that I can understand).

The problem is not "them". The problem is not God, or the Bible either. The problem is your warped understanding of the Bible. The problem is that most religions promote such an incorrect message from the Bible that none of it makes sense to anyone with their brain turned on.

[theicidal maniac]

What don't "they" get? They have good questions that you have yet to answer with any kind of comprehensible answer (that I can understand).

The problem is not "them". The problem is not God, or the Bible either. The problem is your warped understanding of the Bible. The problem is that most religions promote such an incorrect message from the Bible that none of it makes sense to anyone with their brain turned on.

The problem is that there is not one clearcut message of the bible, because it wasn't written as the bible. It's a compilation of (VERY) different spiritual traditions that somebody translated, edited, abridged, and slapped together. The different authors of the bible are NOT even in agreeance as to the characteristics of god, physical OR emotional, so it's essentially a polytheistic book in a very real sense. They even use different NAMES for their gods and mix in healthy doses of local mythologies. The book CONSTANTLY contradicts itself in both the Old and New Testaments. It's greater morality includes such noble concepts as Jesus's "turn the other cheek" and the whole "do unto others.." philosophy, and simultaneously preaches death to infidels and their livestock, and horrific examples of "moral Law" such as death for talking back to your parents, death for collecting firewood on the sabbath, death for theft, death for worshipping any other god, death for covetousness, death for spilling seed on the ground, and being thrust as a branch into the ETERNAL fire by the so-called "God of forgiveness!"

That's the problem.

[ICU]

The problem is that there is not one clearcut message of the bible, because it wasn't written as the bible. It's a compilation of (VERY) different spiritual traditions that somebody translated, edited, abridged, and slapped together. The different authors of the bible are NOT even in agreeance as to the characteristics of god, physical OR emotional, so it's essentially a polytheistic book in a very real sense. They even use different NAMES for their gods and mix in healthy doses of local mythologies. The book CONSTANTLY contradicts itself in both the Old and New Testaments. It's greater morality includes such noble concepts as Jesus's "turn the other cheek" and the whole "do unto others.." philosophy, and simultaneously preaches death to infidels and their livestock, and horrific examples of "moral Law" such as death for talking back to your parents, death for collecting firewood on the sabbath, death for theft, death for worshipping any other god, death for covetousness, death for spilling seed on the ground, and being thrust as a branch into the ETERNAL fire by the so-called "God of forgiveness!"

That's the problem.

Hi..

You have a point. :)

Would you agree with me that we should follow our so called moral laws?

Examples of those would be:

1. Illegal drugs are destructive to onself and the society. Often so called gateway drugs, such as Marijuana, open door to more dangerous drugs such as cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine. Those in turn only lead to death. It's immoral to take drugs.

2. Abortion, by choice of having sex and becoming pregnant, and then deciding to just abort the pregnancy is immoral. I believe that a woman should be able to abort if she was raped. Just moral thinking. :)

3. Sex with multiple partners, *often unsafe sex*, only creates room for sexual diseases to spread. I believe it's immoral to run around *humping* everybody. :)

I could give many more examples, but I believe that you understand my point. :)

God Bless..

[General Septem]

1. Illegal drugs are destructive to onself and the society. Often so called gateway drugs, such as Marijuana, open door to more dangerous drugs such as cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine. Those in turn only lead to death. It's immoral to take drugs.

Disagreed. Yes, hard drugs like meth, cocaine, and heroin which have no useful purpose are wrong, but marijuana? Calling that a gateway drug is like calling Catholicism a gateway religion to the crazy sickos like Jim "Kool-Aid" Jones. And there's nothing wrong with marijuana, or a lot of other soft drugs, particularly the non-addictive ones. In fact marijuana, while classified as a soft drug, is illegal while nicotine and alcohol, technically hard drugs for their effects and addictive properties, are legal. That makes no sense.

[something]

Hi..

You have a point. :)

Would you agree with me that we should follow our so called moral laws?

Examples of those would be:

1. Illegal drugs are destructive to onself and the society. Often so called gateway drugs, such as Marijuana, open door to more dangerous drugs such as cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine. Those in turn only lead to death. It's immoral to take drugs.

2. Abortion, by choice of having sex and becoming pregnant, and then deciding to just abort the pregnancy is immoral. I believe that a woman should be able to abort if she was raped. Just moral thinking. :)

3. Sex with multiple partners, *often unsafe sex*, only creates room for sexual diseases to spread. I believe it's immoral to run around *humping* everybody. :)

I could give many more examples, but I believe that you understand my point. :)

God Bless..

Agreed, this world is full of myths and immoral moral laws. Let's start sredding more myths against thoose myths so we can get waste of them.

[something]

Disagreed. Yes, hard drugs like meth, cocaine, and heroin which have no useful purpose are wrong, but marijuana? Calling that a gateway drug is like calling Catholicism a gateway religion to the crazy sickos like Jim "Kool-Aid" Jones. And there's nothing wrong with marijuana, or a lot of other soft drugs, particularly the non-addictive ones. In fact marijuana, while classified as a soft drug, is illegal while nicotine and alcohol, technically hard drugs for their effects and addictive properties, are legal. That makes no sense.

Wait, I thought he meant that as a bad example? Well if so are not, I have to say I disagree.

[ineedcoffee]

The problem is that there is not one clearcut message of the bible, because it wasn't written as the bible. It's a compilation of (VERY) different spiritual traditions that somebody translated, edited, abridged, and slapped together.

Very true - although "slapped together" might not be the term I would choose. The Bible is a good source of information, inspiration, and chronicles the "history" of God's interaction with people - primarily Jewish people - as understood or remembered by those people. It should NOT be used as a manual of "this is how we should do things all of the time". We need to understand the context in which it was written.


The different authors of the bible are NOT even in agreeance as to the characteristics of god, physical OR emotional, so it's essentially a polytheistic book in a very real sense. They even use different NAMES for their gods and mix in healthy doses of local mythologies.

This is where a lot of the messed up views of hell so popular in Christian "religions" comes from. Again, it's not God that is the problem, it's the misunderstandings of people...


The book CONSTANTLY contradicts itself in both the Old and New Testaments. It's greater morality includes such noble concepts as Jesus's "turn the other cheek" and the whole "do unto others.." philosophy, and simultaneously preaches death to infidels and their livestock, and horrific examples of "moral Law" such as death for talking back to your parents, death for collecting firewood on the sabbath, death for theft, death for worshipping any other god, death for covetousness, death for spilling seed on the ground, and being thrust as a branch into the ETERNAL fire by the so-called "God of forgiveness!"

That's the problem.

We need to separate the old testament commands from the teachings of Jesus. Jesus used the ideas of hell (actually not the word he used most of the time) and fire metaphorically. Jesus actually spoke against the religious leaders of the day in their obsession for following rules but not caring for people.

[theicidal maniac]

Hi..

You have a point. :)

Would you agree with me that we should follow our so called moral laws?

Examples of those would be:

1. Illegal drugs are destructive to onself and the society. Often so called gateway drugs, such as Marijuana, open door to more dangerous drugs such as cocaine, heroin, methamphetamine. Those in turn only lead to death. It's immoral to take drugs.

2. Abortion, by choice of having sex and becoming pregnant, and then deciding to just abort the pregnancy is immoral. I believe that a woman should be able to abort if she was raped. Just moral thinking. :)

3. Sex with multiple partners, *often unsafe sex*, only creates room for sexual diseases to spread. I believe it's immoral to run around *humping* everybody. :)

I could give many more examples, but I believe that you understand my point. :)

God Bless..

Would I agree with you on these points?

1. NO

2. NO

3. NO

I understand your point. You believe that these are moral universals...but they are not. Your point has been dulled, I'm afraid. Many cultures use drugs that are illegal in the United States as a way to get closer to god. These drugs are not illegal in their culture, they are respected and revered and used spiritually...conversely, many of the LEGAL drugs in the U.S. are VERY destructive. My mother took Fen-Phen, an FDA approved weight-loss drug. Her Dr. prescribed it to her. It gave her irreversable heart valve damage. Illegal does not equal immoral any more than legal equals moral. They are not the same at all.

It's incorrect to believe that everyone who engages in premarital sex is "running around humping everybody" else.

And if you think abortion is wrong, then just don't have one.

[theicidal maniac]

Very true - although "slapped together" might not be the term I would choose. The Bible is a good source of information, inspiration, and chronicles the "history" of God's interaction with people - primarily Jewish people - as understood or remembered by those people. It should NOT be used as a manual of "this is how we should do things all of the time". We need to understand the context in which it was written.

This is where a lot of the messed up views of hell so popular in Christian "religions" comes from. Again, it's not God that is the problem, it's the misunderstandings of people...

We need to separate the old testament commands from the teachings of Jesus. Jesus used the ideas of hell (actually not the word he used most of the time) and fire metaphorically. Jesus actually spoke against the religious leaders of the day in their obsession for following rules but not caring for people.

I like where you are going with this more rational view of things, but the question is begged, if you realize that SOME of the Bible is not for you, then why is ANY of it? I can dismiss the verses you agree with using the same reasoning as the one's you dismiss. You use common sense, the good stuff mom and dad (hope I'm not being too presumptuous) raised you with to determine the good parts of the book from the unnecessary or volatile parts. There is something within you that is telling you which parts are good and which are not. That part of you is judging the scriptures looking for value based on what you have learned about value in your life. Why not cut out the middle man (the Bible), as Richard Dawkins said, and just use that internal morality that has developed within you?

[ineedcoffee]

I like where you are going with this more rational view of things, but the question is begged, if you realize that SOME of the Bible is not for you, then why is ANY of it? I can dismiss the verses you agree with using the same reasoning as the one's you dismiss. You use common sense, the good stuff mom and dad (hope I'm not being too presumptuous) raised you with to determine the good parts of the book from the unnecessary or volatile parts. There is something within you that is telling you which parts are good and which are not. That part of you is judging the scriptures looking for value based on what you have learned about value in your life. Why not cut out the middle man (the Bible), as Richard Dawkins said, and just use that internal morality that has developed within you?

Good questions...

For me, the simple answer (if there is one) is that I choose to believe that God exists. My choice. You make the choice to believe God doesn't exist. Your choice. I can not prove to you, without a doubt, that God exists. Neither can you prove to me that God does not exist. Both of us believe that we are correct, and have probably seen/experienced things in our lives that have lead us to our beliefs.

Reading the Bible, and understanding/interpreting it as many "religions" do makes no sense. As you have said, not only does it seemingly contradict itself, but it also contradicts science. I have a science degree, I have studied genetics, etc... so I have to "re-examine" what I read in the Bible. Often, that means examining the context in which the specific portion was written. Through personal experience, I "know" that God exists. That is something I simply can not avoid, although at times I have questioned it.

To me, there is plenty of room for both science and God in the world. Both can coexist logically in my mind. Science without God, to me, is incomplete. Again, that's my belief.

Jesus was trying to teach us was a better way to live, to get away from the "rules and regulations" of the pharisees of the time, to turn our attention toward helping each other, and making the world a better place to live. The Bible isn't supposed to be a rule book - it is simply a collection of information, history, and correspondence between early "Christians". The early "Christians", after all, didn't even have a Bible (or any other written rulebooks) to follow. They just followed what they understood Jesus to have shown them, both with his words and actions.

Being a "Christian" - following Jesus - is supposed to be about a relationship, not rules. That's where "religions" (all of them) have got it wrong.

[ajk]

Interesting point, but let me ask you this: Wouldn't following those rules be part of keeping a solid relationship with Jesus and God Almighty?

[ineedcoffee]

Interesting point, but let me ask you this: Wouldn't following those rules be part of keeping a solid relationship with Jesus and God Almighty?

If you're talking about Jesus "rules" to love God, and to love your neighbour as yourself, then yes...

In Jesus own words, that's what really counts, everything else is secondary.

What other rules are you thinking about?

[ajk]

I mean the 10 commandments.

[something]

I mean the 10 commandments.

Why are you listening to them?

[ajk]

Because those are the laws God set in place for us to follow. If I want to be Heaven with Him in the next life, it would be wise for me (and for anyone else for that matter) to follow those laws.

[something]

Because those are the laws God set in place for us to follow. If I want to be Heaven with Him in the next life, it would be wise for me (and for anyone else for that matter) to follow those laws.

You know, I've thought about that. How fun can it be to live for ever? Flying around and play harp in a eternity, why would anyone do that? They should be bored out of their minds?

[ajk]

I'm sure there's a lot more to it then just flying around and playing a harp for eternity. What exactly it entails though, we cannot know until we're actually there. Keep in mind BTW that we will likely see some of our friends and family who went before us (assuming they actually did make it to Heaven of course). So it's not as if we'd be alone there.

[ineedcoffee]

I mean the 10 commandments.

As Jesus said...

All of the law is summed up in the two "commandments" that he gave. Follow those - completely - and you won't have to worry too much about the other 10.

Most religions spend all of their time worrying about the 10 commandments, and don't do a very good job with the two that Jesus said were the most important. Seems a bit backwards to me!

Sorry if I don't have a lot of tolerance for "religion" or religious "rules". Seems to me that the last thing Jesus wanted to do was to start another religion. For some stupid reason, people started one in "his name" anyway. Talk about missing the point...

[ajk]

As Jesus said...
All of the law is summed up in the two "commandments" that he gave. Follow those - completely - and you won't have to worry too much about the other 10.


So you're saying that if we follow those completely, we'd be by default then following the rest?

[something]

I'm sure there's a lot more to it then just flying around and playing a harp for eternity. What exactly it entails though, we cannot know until we're actually there. Keep in mind BTW that we will likely see some of our friends and family who went before us (assuming they actually did make it to Heaven of course). So it's not as if we'd be alone there.

That's what separates the christianity from other religions. There's not enough to be a good person to get to heaven. You also have to follow several rules. And if you follow them enough right, you don't even have to be nice.

[ineedcoffee]

Because those are the laws God set in place for us to follow. If I want to be Heaven with Him in the next life, it would be wise for me (and for anyone else for that matter) to follow those laws.

Did he? Are you sure? Are you Jewish? From what I remember, in any Bible I've read, in any language, God set those rules in place through Moses for the Jewish people...

Jesus came with a "new covenant" - and new, simpler rules which were for "all people".

[ajk]

Who's to say the 10 Commandments aren't for all people? Why wouldn't they be?

[ineedcoffee]

That's what separates the christianity from other religions. There's not enough to be a good person to get to heaven. You also have to follow several rules. And if you follow them enough right, you don't even have to be nice.

Except for one little problem...

Jesus NEVER taught that...

[ineedcoffee]

Who's to say the 10 Commandments aren't for all people? Why wouldn't they be?

Why not? They're not bad rules after all. I try to follow them the best I can (although I rarely think about it).

I'm just suggesting that you start to re-think some of the things "you take for granted". Nowhere in the Bible does it say that the 10 commandments were intended for "gentiles" (to use a biblical term). That's all I'm saying. If you approach the Bible as a rule book - which I say it isn't really supposed to be - then you had better make sure that you are applying the right rules to the right people.

This is much of the problem with the bad reputation that has plagued "Christianity" for too long. People keep taking "rules" out of context and placing them as burdens for other people to carry - when they have no right to do so.

[ajk]

Could I have an example?

[ineedcoffee]

Could I have an example?

How about many of the rules associated with various branches of "Paulianity" (otherwise known as evangelical Christianity)?

First thing that comes to mind are all of the controversies in churches about whether women can talk or preach, women having head coverings, a lot of the repression of women in religious organizations, etc... Much of that was "socially normal" in Paul's day, and is OK if you read it as "historical information" about what happened back then.

If you apply it in current day life as "rules", it causes all kinds of problems. Paul's writings to churches were intended as guidelines for those specific churches within the society they were in. Paul NEVER intended that people 2000 years later in a completely different society would be using his letters as a rule book for their lives!

The 10 commandments are different - as they really are encompassed by the "rules" Jesus gave, and are far more general. All "rules" from the Bible should be viewed more as "guidelines" to a better life, rather than rules that, if broken, send you to hell...

[ajk]

Well now obviously we are all sinful people by nature. So just because we break one of the commandments, it doesn't neccessarily mean we will be in Hell because of it, because God is forgiving as we all know. However, if we continually break those commandments throughout our life on this Earth without repenting of them, that would be a little different in my estimation.

[ajk]

How about many of the rules associated with various branches of "Paulianity" (otherwise known as evangelical Christianity)?

First thing that comes to mind are all of the controversies in churches about whether women can talk or preach, women having head coverings, a lot of the repression of women in religious organizations, etc... Much of that was "socially normal" in Paul's day, and is OK if you read it as "historical information" about what happened back then.



When you speak of the repression of women in religious organizations, do you mean like them not being able to become Pastors or Priests?

[Ausinus]

When you speak of the repression of women in religious organizations, do you mean like them not being able to become Pastors or Priests?

Oh women are ordained - in the more liberal protestant churches which recognise all people being equal.

Plus women being segregated from the men in synagogues, etc.

[General Septem]

As Jesus said...

All of the law is summed up in the two "commandments" that he gave. Follow those - completely - and you won't have to worry too much about the other 10.

Most religions spend all of their time worrying about the 10 commandments, and don't do a very good job with the two that Jesus said were the most important. Seems a bit backwards to me!

Jesus didn't say the others weren't important, He said that all other commandments were based on those two. All ten Commandments are based on both loving God and loving your neighbor. The problem is that people follow the Commandments without keeping this in mind.

[ajk]

Oh women are ordained - in the more liberal protestant churches which recognise all people being equal.


We recognize people as equal too, just in a different way. Women can still live a religious life, that being the sisterhood (aka nuns). In that same way, men can be priests, but cannot be a nun. So it evens out.

[Ausinus]

We recognize people as equal too, just in a different way. Women can still live a religious life, that being the sisterhood (aka nuns). In that same way, men can be priests, but cannot be a nun. So it evens out.

Segregation anyone? Then why dont you allow nuns to lead church services - and dont give me your bride of christ bullshit either.

[General Septem]

We recognize people as equal too, just in a different way. Women can still live a religious life, that being the sisterhood (aka nuns). In that same way, men can be priests, but cannot be a nun. So it evens out.

I wouldn't even bother. I've already explained to him why women can't be priests and he didn't believe me.

[ajk]

Because a nun is not a priest.

[ajk]

I know, I'm not gonna give up on him though.

[General Septem]

Segregation anyone? Then why dont you allow nuns to lead church services - and dont give me your bride of christ bullshit either.

I already explained to you the reason why - women cannot symbolize the bridegroom of the Church. It has nothing to do with segregation at all. If you think that's a bullshit reason, that's your prerogative, but it's also your prerogative to get bent.

[ineedcoffee]

Well now obviously we are all sinful people by nature. So just because we break one of the commandments, it doesn't neccessarily mean we will be in Hell because of it, because God is forgiving as we all know. However, if we continually break those commandments throughout our life on this Earth without repenting of them, that would be a little different in my estimation.

It doesn't necessarily mean? Then how do we know when "we've crossed the line"? How many commandments, or how many times, to I have to break them to end up in Hell? This is the problem with religion - a bunch of rules that will be broken sooner or later. It's not the rules themselves that are the problem, it's how those rules are used as a method of controlling the members of the religion, keeping them in "fear" of breaking a rule.

This is one of the key differences between the 10 commandments of the old testament and the "rules" that Jesus taught. The 10 commandments were primarily "thou shalt NOT" - in other words rules that you shouldn't break. What Jesus taught was the opposite in thinking. His rules were about what we should do - they were more positive, more liberating in nature.

If you are a religious leader, rules that you can punish people for and that allow you to make people feel guilty also allow you to control people far better. That's not what Jesus was about...

[ineedcoffee]

When you speak of the repression of women in religious organizations, do you mean like them not being able to become Pastors or Priests?

That's only part of it... Many religions carry it a lot farther than that, treating women as the "possessions" of men, all in the guise of Christianity.

Also, there is the segregation of men and women in some more "traditional" denominations (maybe not as much in North America, but certainly other parts of the world).

Men in charge of religious organizations like to have control. They will use the Bible to maintain that control. They use the "words" of the Bible, but completely miss the actual "message" that Jesus was trying to convey.

[ineedcoffee]

Jesus didn't say the others weren't important, He said that all other commandments were based on those two. All ten Commandments are based on both loving God and loving your neighbor. The problem is that people follow the Commandments without keeping this in mind.

Exactly. Kind of like the old saying about putting the cart before the horse... It doesn't work.

[ajk]

Obviously by the act itself, we cross the line. However if we are repentant, and do our best to not cross the line as it were, we will likely end up in Heaven. If we do not however, then chances are we would not and would be in Hell instead. Incidentally, do you not believe in Hell? Your posts seem to give off that impression.

[General Septem]

It doesn't necessarily mean? Then how do we know when "we've crossed the line"? How many commandments, or how many times, to I have to break them to end up in Hell?

You could rape, kill, and rape again every motherfucker on this planet and still be forgiven if you are truly sorry for it. No doubt you'll spend time in Purgatory to atone for it, but whether or not you go to Hell isn't about how many sins you've committed, it's about whether or not in your heart you choose to be with God.

[General Septem]

Exactly. Kind of like the old saying about putting the cart before the horse... It doesn't work.

Yeah, but just make sure the horse doesn't leave without the cart.

[ineedcoffee]

We recognize people as equal too, just in a different way. Women can still live a religious life, that being the sisterhood (aka nuns). In that same way, men can be priests, but cannot be a nun. So it evens out.

Ummm...

No it doesn't even out. Who gets the final say, the most authority in all of this? The Priests or the Nuns? Seems to me that the Priests are in charge, and get to have the most say in church activities, while the Nuns are left to serve a support role.

That's not equality. Don't delude yourself into thinking it is.

[ajk]

My feeling is that since the original Apostles (or priests) were all men, why should that be any different now? It started that way, so it should end that way right?

[ineedcoffee]

Because a nun is not a priest.

Where did the idea of a "nun" come from? It's certainly not in the Bible...

Another question... Almost every denomination of "Christianity" centres their church life around one leading priest or pastor leading the church. Where did that start? The "New Testament" church was nothing like that...

[ineedcoffee]

Obviously by the act itself, we cross the line. However if we are repentant, and do our best to not cross the line as it were, we will likely end up in Heaven. If we do not however, then chances are we would not and would be in Hell instead. Incidentally, do you not believe in Hell? Your posts seem to give off that impression.

Yes I do... That's where Satan and his "angels" are. That's who it was created for. Not for humans...

[ineedcoffee]

My feeling is that since the original Apostles (or priests) were all men, why should that be any different now? It started that way, so it should end that way right?

The "apostles" were just like you and I... Just average people. They were not priests - unless you call all of us "priests" as well.

Why were they men? Because in that culture, women did not have equal education or social standing, and as such nobody would have listened to them. It's a bit different now...

[ineedcoffee]

Obviously by the act itself, we cross the line. However if we are repentant, and do our best to not cross the line as it were, we will likely end up in Heaven. If we do not however, then chances are we would not and would be in Hell instead. Incidentally, do you not believe in Hell? Your posts seem to give off that impression.

So, are you saying that if we live a perfect life, try to follow and love God, love our neighbours, and then one day tell a little lie... and then get hit by a car before we repent, we're going to Hell?

We will likely end up in heaven? Chances are....?? Aren't you sure? Seems to be that your faith is a bit unsure...

[ineedcoffee]

You could rape, kill, and rape again every motherfucker on this planet and still be forgiven if you are truly sorry for it. No doubt you'll spend time in Purgatory to atone for it, but whether or not you go to Hell isn't about how many sins you've committed, it's about whether or not in your heart you choose to be with God.

Purgatory? What's that? I'm certainly not going there... It doesn't exist.

[General Septem]

No it doesn't even out. Who gets the final say, the most authority in all of this? The Priests or the Nuns? Seems to me that the Priests are in charge, and get to have the most say in church activities, while the Nuns are left to serve a support role.

Then you obviously don't know much about Church administration. It's the pastor that is in charge, not necessarily a Priest. The relationship between Priests and Nuns is not an authority issue. They each have their roles.

[General Septem]

Purgatory? What's that? I'm certainly not going there... It doesn't exist.

What makes you think that? It was in the King James Bible before the Protestants decided to selectively remove certain books. It still is in the complete Bible.

[General Septem]

Yes I do... That's where Satan and his "angels" are. That's who it was created for. Not for humans...

Is your Bible missing the part where the wicked are cast into the place prepared for Satan and his angels?

[General Septem]

So, are you saying that if we live a perfect life, try to follow and love God, love our neighbours, and then one day tell a little lie... and then get hit by a car before we repent, we're going to Hell?

Well that would have to depend on the lie, but based on your post, a resounding no. Not all sins are the same. Not all lies are even the same. Telling a white lie to avoid offending someone and nuking an entire country are "not the same ballpark. It's not the same league. It's not even the same fucking sport."

[ajk]

So, are you saying that if we live a perfect life, try to follow and love God, love our neighbours, and then one day tell a little lie... and then get hit by a car before we repent, we're going to Hell?


Not neccessarily, as I said we are going to sin. That's just part of our nature. But if by and large we do our best to not sin, we will probably go to Heaven.

[ajk]

Yes I do... That's where Satan and his "angels" are. That's who it was created for. Not for humans...

Let me ask you something then. If we aren't going to go to Hell, meaning anyone who has ever lived or is living will go to Heaven, then why should we believe in God or follow what he says at all? Why not do whatever we want regardless of who we hurt. We're going to be in Heaven anyway right?

Now you know that doesn't make sense, yet that is basically what you are telling me.

[something]

Except for one little problem...

Jesus NEVER taught that...

Maybe Jesus didn't, but the BIBLE do, and most christians follow that one.

[ineedcoffee]

What makes you think that? It was in the King James Bible before the Protestants decided to selectively remove certain books. It still is in the complete Bible.

And who originally put it in the King James Bible?

[ineedcoffee]

Maybe Jesus didn't, but the BIBLE do, and most christians follow that one.

Many Christians do live that way, but that's not how it's supposed to be...

I think many will be surprised when God confronts them at the end.

[ineedcoffee]

Well that would have to depend on the lie, but based on your post, a resounding no. Not all sins are the same. Not all lies are even the same. Telling a white lie to avoid offending someone and nuking an entire country are "not the same ballpark. It's not the same league. It's not even the same fucking sport."

That would depend? As far as I understand, to God all sin is sin. Where do we draw the line? How do we know?

[General Septem]

And who originally put it in the King James Bible?

The King James Version? I don't know, whoever came up with that version in the first place. I don't know because I don't use that version. I'm just saying that these books have always been in the Bible, and they were even in your version until someone decided they thought they knew better than God and decided to remove them. In fact, when your version of the Bible was translated, King James wrote a law that said anyone who tried to remove a book from his version of the Bible would get their ass thrown in jail.

[General Septem]

That would depend? As far as I understand, to God all sin is sin. Where do we draw the line? How do we know?

It's not a line that is to be drawn. The gravity of a sin depends on several things. It depends on the consequences, among other things.

Also in order for a sin to be mortal, it requires grave enough sin, full knowledge, and full consent. Otherwise it is a venial sin. The difference is that while all sin is damaging to our relationship with God and harmful for our soul, mortal sin can sever our relationship with God completely.

[ineedcoffee]

The King James Version? I don't know, whoever came up with that version in the first place. I don't know because I don't use that version. I'm just saying that these books have always been in the Bible, and they were even in your version until someone decided they thought they knew better than God and decided to remove them. In fact, when your version of the Bible was translated, King James wrote a law that said anyone who tried to remove a book from his version of the Bible would get their ass thrown in jail.

Always been in the Bible? And how about before "the Bible" existed as such? When it was a collection of scrolls in different locations? Who decided what goes in and what stays out? What were the motives for their choices?

I used to just simply "believe" what it said in the Bible, as literally as I could. I grew up going to church, reading the Bible, etc... Somewhere along the line, I've realized that (as the atheists on here like to point out) the Bible really was written and assembled by humans. The difference with me is that I still believe in God. I've questioned it, but I have made the choice to believe. It makes a lot more rational sense to me than not believing.

The Bible, I believe, contains the experiences of a variety of humans, and their experiences with God, as well as the written history of the life of Jesus. I read the Bible as simply what it is - a collection of stories. Some are true (literally), while some are simply stories or metaphors. We can learn from all of it.

It is far more important to develop a relationship with God, and to trust your "heart", live your life trying to live like Jesus did than to get all hung up on the rules, regulations, and legalism so prevalent in "religion".

I have read some very good posts, some very good questions made by atheists on this site. I understand why they can not accept the existence of God. Neither can I if I am forced to limit God to the "box" defined by accepted religious organizations.

Maybe the problem isn't with God? Maybe the problem isn't with Jesus? Or with science, or the people who don't believe in God? Maybe the problem is that Christians have had such a messed up understanding of God (for hundreds of years), and of what Jesus was trying to teach us that it didn't really make any sense to intelligent people? Maybe we really need to be willing to start re-thinking what we have been taught in "church" and see if it really is true.

[ineedcoffee]

It's not a line that is to be drawn. The gravity of a sin depends on several things. It depends on the consequences, among other things.

Also in order for a sin to be mortal, it requires grave enough sin, full knowledge, and full consent. Otherwise it is a venial sin. The difference is that while all sin is damaging to our relationship with God and harmful for our soul, mortal sin can sever our relationship with God completely.

Grave enough? What defines "grave enough"? How about almost grave enough? Or barely grave enough?

No matter how you define it, there is a line, somewhere...

My question is how do you know? Or do you just live your life "hoping" that you haven't gone too far with some sin? Or that some "little" sin doesn't turn out to be a little "bigger" than you thought in the eyes of God?

Too many Christians live their lives in "fear" of messing up. That's not the freedom that Jesus was trying to teach us. That's a gospel of fear, not a gospel of love.

[General Septem]

Grave enough? What defines "grave enough"? How about almost grave enough? Or barely grave enough?

No matter how you define it, there is a line, somewhere...

That just depends. Ultimately this kind of thing are decisions we have to make ourselves. But that's where "full knowledge" comes in. Suppose something was grave enough, but if you didn't know it was grave enough, then you're not as culpable for it. If you believe something is grave and do it anyway, you may well be responsible for it even if it didn't turn out to be as bad as you thought, because you still knowingly went against what you believed to be the will of God.

But if you're addicted to something, or something else gets in the way of your ability to consent to a sin, then you're still not culpable for it. God doesn't expect you to do that which is impossible.


My question is how do you know? Or do you just live your life "hoping" that you haven't gone too far with some sin? Or that some "little" sin doesn't turn out to be a little "bigger" than you thought in the eyes of God?

Too many Christians live their lives in "fear" of messing up. That's not the freedom that Jesus was trying to teach us. That's a gospel of fear, not a gospel of love.

It is impossible to commit a mortal sin by mistake, and it is also impossible to not know you're in a state of mortal sin. I don't live my life "hoping" I haven't gone too far because I know I'd know damn well if I did or not.

Also, if you do screw up and commit a mortal sin, you can still repent. If you die unrepentant however, it can separate you from God forever. But it's a choice, and not a choice one can make by accident.

[conspiracy]

1)Why do you selectively interpret the bible? You follow some of its tenets yet denounce others.
2) If you claim that the Old Testament is Jewish Law when you are criticised because of it, why include it in your bible?
3)Why do you include the letters of Paul in your New Testament? As far as I know, he never had contact with christ.
4)Is it not arrogant to claim that your religion is the one true faith and condemn everyone else to hell?
5)Why do you have statues of saints and of christ in your churches? Is that not idolatry?
6)Why do you not ordain women? Is it not your belief everyone is equal in the eyes of god?
7)You denounce the Gnostic Gospels as false. What makes them any less valid than the synoptic Gospels?
8)If the bible is the word of god, why there are so many contradictions found
within it?
9)If your faith is the one true faith, why is it so derivative of other faiths, such as Judaism and many forms of paganism?
10)You claim that people die because we have free will. Why then, did god create diseases such as children's leukemia?
11) Explain why the Church, which is supposedly the bride of christ, has commited some of the most horrid acts in the history of humanity, such as the Crusades, the Inquisition and the Witch Trials.
12)According to your beliefs, God can do miracles, such as cure cancer. Explain why he does not dispense these miracles equally.
13)All humans supposedly carry the stain of original sin. Why are we punished for the sins of others?
14)How is it fair that an atheist can do a lot of good in the world, and go to hell for denouncing god, when a christian who does far less supposedly goes to heaven?
15)Why does god insist you worship him and only him? Is this not egomaniacal?
16) If god is all loving, why do we need to believe in him to be saved? Surely he loves us all unconditially.
17)What makes your religion any more valid than the other religions in the world? Especially since many religions are older than yours.
18)Why do you think it is fair for people to be punished in hell for all eternity? Think about how long eternity really is.
19)Why does the church spend so much money on beautification of churches? Wouldnt this money be better spent helping the poor?
20)Explain why you believe a christian nation is any better than a secular one. Additionally, explain how our freedoms, such as speech and religion, would be preserved in such a nation.

Mind you, whenever I mention god, it is hypothetical for the purpose of argument.

Ok. I'll give my opinion on this and answer all of your questions. They are all excellent questions. I think you will find that first of all NO ONE and I do mean NO one follows any religion exactly how it should be done. It is simply impossible. If any Christian , Muslin Ect. claims they don't screw up then they are lying. Simple as that. So here goes.

1 and 2) As I've stated before I agree that some of the Old Testament more than likely should not be in the Bible. Scholars through translation put together the scripture as they thought it should fit. Just as there is diffrent sects of Christianity there is also diffrent books of the Bible to go along with it. Right or wrong it happens. No one can really say for sure if they all should or should not be there. I know this however, the Bible does teach that before the birth death and resurrection of Jesus all sins had to be atoned by either sacrifice of a clean animal or you were punished by stoning. It's fact. The best thing I can say is if you wish to criticize then go ahead. You really have to read the entire Bible and really study the message from A to Z. It is almost like opening any book in the middle ,taking some obscure thing and saying the book is about something that it wasn't intended. The Bible is suppose to be a guide to living a Christian's lifestye. No one though can do it without failing.

3) Paul was not the only one to have not had contact or met Jesus Christ. There were many other authors that had not. what do you mean exactly why it's there and I will answer that later.

4) Arrogant is not what God descibes it as. You have a choice to believe or not to believe. It's that simple. Those who look upon non believers with contempt are wrong. PERIOD. The Bible does not teach this in my eyes because you know what happens is exactly why you ,in your words "FUCKING HATE CHRISTIANS!" There are any people that claim to be Christian that have no idea. i would never say "I fucking hate atheists or pagans." I never , not once said I even hated gay people because I don't. It isn't right to be arrogant about it.

5)YES , the Catholics are wrong to have statues of Mary and pray to hear. This is without a doubt Idoltry. You are absolutly correct. Even pictures of Jesus inm y opinion are wrong to a point. Some will say that it is a reminder but to me it is the same.

6) This is a sticky topic so bear with me. Women as much as you hate it were made in the image of man from a rib of man. Women today still have one more rib then men. I do believe that women should be equal and my wife and I share everything equally. HOWEVER again my opinion . Equality means that in the household thing should be shared, job or otherwise. The Bible states that man is suppose to be the head of the household NOT that the women shouldn't be treated with respect or do things a man . It isn't a matter of talent. There are some women that have better presence with speaking. It isn't a matter of being inferior. It all has to do with what God says. Men and women, together, can relate to Jesus in that as He is head of the church, so the husband is to be toward his wife, and as He submits to the Father, so the women to the man. Ironically, while women preachers are trying to teach the world the Word, they stand with the world in violation to the Word. Not all Christian sects believe this however just as some of you don't beleive a woman should be president. I won't give a bible verse as I am simply answering you question.

7)Another excellent question. I simply believe that they theory of an EVIL God in the Old Testament and then a good God in the new and that knowledge alone saves your soul can't be accurate. You can know all you want and not go to heaven. Even the Devil knows and can quote scripture. There is actually a whole another debate to be had on this topic and I am more then happy to talk about them anytime.

8) Contradictions in what way? It would seem that you have actually read the Bible to some degree so there are probably many points you can make about contradiction. We can again , with a example talka bout it more. I have no problems with it , just as long as it isn't a screaming match or a fuck you session.

9)Human error trying to do what they thought was correct I suppose. Diffrent sects beleive diffrent things , form diffrent opinions on what god is actually trying to say to us. Just as there are diffrent forms of Wicca and satanism.

10) People do not die because of FREE WILL. According to the Bible they die because of sin. The mistakes of Adam and Eve. Whomever told you that I would disagree.

11) The church in those times were again wrong. ALOT and I do mean alot of wars have started from the excuse of Religious purposes. Take Jihad as another example. It is wrong and I would never say otherwise.

12) You know I have no answer to that. Why God does what he does is not for me to understand. Perhaps God didn't cure those peopl in the first place. Maybe he did but we just don't know. There are some Christians that would hate even me for that answer but it's true. We don't know.

13) The world is not perfect. Someone may sin and kill you or someone you know. That affects you , it's true. As humans we are all born with sin and according to the bible as long as we are alive we will not stop sinning. It is a domino effect.

14) The best way I can answer this is from a verse in the Bible "Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace have ye been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God." Atheists can and are good people but it is not enough according to God. There has been a long debate on whether works alone gets you into heaven and it a HUGE debate. some believe that works can do it alone but according to scripture it has to be faith first. My opinion.

15) God decrees that he is the one and only true God. Giving permission to worship other gods would be a major contradiction, don't you think?

16) God loves everyone. The sinner and the saint unconditially regardless of what we have done or will do. He doesn't like our sin however and by sending Jesus to wash our sins away on the cross he has given us a way to go to heaven. Even Paul the apostle was a murderer and an evil man and God forgave him. The choice is yours to believe or not to believe.

17) Because God said and that's what I believe. I've studied other religions , tried to actually prove it all wrong but there is too much truth to it all. My opinion again.

18) Yes enternity is a REALLY Long time. Like forever. That is the penalty for sin however and the only way out of it is through faith that Jesus died on the cross for your sins.

19) I totally agree with you. It would be better spent in other ways.

20) Our fore Fathers believed in Freedom or Religion , though it was based upon the Bible , not just Christianity ,in many ways. God blesses a nation that follows his words. You've seen that for over 200 years with the United states. Our freedoms have been preserved until lately. Honestly Christians have become lazy , they don't tell people what they believe without anger and that is a turn off. Even if we took the Christian aspect out of it, this nation is very immoral. In my opinion immorality and people just doing whatever , right or wrong is destroying America. Even if we just went back to a guideline of values , we would benefit as a nation.

[conspiracy]

Ok so there you go. Any of those I will be happy to discuss further , without the name calling or the rude retorts. A question or a point to prove me wrong is fine as long as it is repectful.

[Ausinus]

3) Paul was not the only one to have not had contact or met Jesus Christ. There were many other authors that had not. what do you mean exactly why it's there and I will answer that later.

The New Testament is an account of Jesus and his teachings supposedly is it not?


5)YES , the Catholics are wrong to have statues of Mary and pray to hear. This is without a doubt Idoltry. You are absolutly correct. Even pictures of Jesus inm y opinion are wrong to a point. Some will say that it is a reminder but to me it is the same.

Well, someone who agrees with me. ^_^


6) This is a sticky topic so bear with me. Women as much as you hate it were made in the image of man from a rib of man. Women today still have one more rib then men. I do believe that women should be equal and my wife and I share everything equally. HOWEVER again my opinion . Equality means that in the household thing should be shared, job or otherwise. The Bible states that man is suppose to be the head of the household NOT that the women shouldn't be treated with respect or do things a man . It isn't a matter of talent. There are some women that have better presence with speaking. It isn't a matter of being inferior. It all has to do with what God says. Men and women, together, can relate to Jesus in that as He is head of the church, so the husband is to be toward his wife, and as He submits to the Father, so the women to the man. Ironically, while women preachers are trying to teach the world the Word, they stand with the world in violation to the Word. Not all Christian sects believe this however just as some of you don't beleive a woman should be president. I won't give a bible verse as I am simply answering you question.

Of course, this does make the assumption that creationism was what actually happened and Christianity is the true faith. It is much fairer to do it the secular way.


8) Contradictions in what way? It would seem that you have actually read the Bible to some degree so there are probably many points you can make about contradiction. We can again , with a example talka bout it more. I have no problems with it , just as long as it isn't a screaming match or a fuck you session.

As in verse contradictions.


10) People do not die because of FREE WILL. According to the Bible they die because of sin. The mistakes of Adam and Eve. Whomever told you that I would disagree.

As in the free will that supposedly lead to original sin.


13) The world is not perfect. Someone may sin and kill you or someone you know. That affects you , it's true. As humans we are all born with sin and according to the bible as long as we are alive we will not stop sinning. It is a domino effect.

This doesnt answer the question.


15) God decrees that he is the one and only true God. Giving permission to worship other gods would be a major contradiction, don't you think?

Again, it is nothing more than postulation that the bible is true and Jehovah actually exists.


16) God loves everyone. The sinner and the saint unconditially regardless of what we have done or will do. He doesn't like our sin however and by sending Jesus to wash our sins away on the cross he has given us a way to go to heaven. Even Paul the apostle was a murderer and an evil man and God forgave him. The choice is yours to believe or not to believe.

Why did he need to send Jesus? God is omnipotent, right?


18) Yes enternity is a REALLY Long time. Like forever. That is the penalty for sin however and the only way out of it is through faith that Jesus died on the cross for your sins.

Again, how is it fair?


20) Our fore Fathers believed in Freedom or Religion , though it was based upon the Bible , not just Christianity ,in many ways. God blesses a nation that follows his words. You've seen that for over 200 years with the United states. Our freedoms have been preserved until lately. Honestly Christians have become lazy , they don't tell people what they believe without anger and that is a turn off. Even if we took the Christian aspect out of it, this nation is very immoral. In my opinion immorality and people just doing whatever , right or wrong is destroying America. Even if we just went back to a guideline of values , we would benefit as a nation.

Freedom of religion is not a christian concept. And we have seen how a nation that espouses christianity as a state religion has issues preserving the rights of people and of the citizen.

Also, try to actually answer the question.

[ajk]

Again, how is it fair?


It's plenty fair, everyone is born with the same playing field in this regard. They control their own fate.

[Ausinus]

It's plenty fair, everyone is born with the same playing field in this regard. They control their own fate.

No it isnt. Is it fair if a couple who has children in a de facto marriage is punished for eternity? No one - not even Hitler or Stalin - deserves to be punished for eternity.

[ajk]

You're missing the point, we all control our own fate. If we suffer forever it's only because we did it to ourselves.

[General Septem]

5)YES , the Catholics are wrong to have statues of Mary and pray to hear. This is without a doubt Idoltry. You are absolutly correct. Even pictures of Jesus inm y opinion are wrong to a point. Some will say that it is a reminder but to me it is the same.

Honor and worship are two different things. The saints are honored and adored. Mary is honored above all other saints. But none of them are worshiped.

Likewise, prayer is not the same as worship, and we believe that the saints, being they're part of the body of Christ, will hear our prayers through God. So it's not idolatry at all.

[Ausinus]

You're missing the point, we all control our own fate. If we suffer forever it's only because we did it to ourselves.

No YOU are missing the point - the point being that no one is deserving of being punished FOREVER, no matter what they did.

[ajk]

Not true, think of it this way. Like any good parent, God is going to hold us accountable for our mistakes and errs made while on this Earth. Obviously he doesn't want to punish us, but if he feels it neccessary to do so, he will in his perfect justice.

[General Septem]

No YOU are missing the point - the point being that no one is deserving of being punished FOREVER, no matter what they did.

It's not a punishment, it's a choice.

[Sword of Gideon]

We all make mistakes. We all err. We all sin. We are imperfect, but there is a way to forgiveness. There is a way to begin walking the way. It is so easy. You need but ask. No matter what you have believed in the past. No matter what you have done, you need but ask, and turn from your ways. It is a gift that is freely given to us. Even if you fail and fail again, you need but ask. "Do not fear. You will have trouble in the world, but I have overcome the world." Even your failings come under this.

The choice is when you realize you have done something wrong and you choose not to ask for forgiveness. If you truly seek forgiveness, then you truly have a purpose not to do the same thing again.

[starry123nights]

We all make mistakes. We all err. We all sin. We are imperfect, but there is a way to forgiveness. There is a way to begin walking the way. It is so easy. You need but ask. No matter what you have believed in the past. No matter what you have done, you need but ask, and turn from your ways. It is a gift that is freely given to us. Even if you fail and fail again, you need but ask. "Do not fear. You will have trouble in the world, but I have overcome the world." Even your failings come under this.


Man, I am so tired of this shit. DO NOT FEAR....geez

[conspiracy]

Always been in the Bible? And how about before "the Bible" existed as such? When it was a collection of scrolls in different locations? Who decided what goes in and what stays out? What were the motives for their choices?

I used to just simply "believe" what it said in the Bible, as literally as I could. I grew up going to church, reading the Bible, etc... Somewhere along the line, I've realized that (as the atheists on here like to point out) the Bible really was written and assembled by humans. The difference with me is that I still believe in God. I've questioned it, but I have made the choice to believe. It makes a lot more rational sense to me than not believing.

The Bible, I believe, contains the experiences of a variety of humans, and their experiences with God, as well as the written history of the life of Jesus. I read the Bible as simply what it is - a collection of stories. Some are true (literally), while some are simply stories or metaphors. We can learn from all of it.

It is far more important to develop a relationship with God, and to trust your "heart", live your life trying to live like Jesus did than to get all hung up on the rules, regulations, and legalism so prevalent in "religion".

I have read some very good posts, some very good questions made by atheists on this site. I understand why they can not accept the existence of God. Neither can I if I am forced to limit God to the "box" defined by accepted religious organizations.

Maybe the problem isn't with God? Maybe the problem isn't with Jesus? Or with science, or the people who don't believe in God? Maybe the problem is that Christians have had such a messed up understanding of God (for hundreds of years), and of what Jesus was trying to teach us that it didn't really make any sense to intelligent people? Maybe we really need to be willing to start re-thinking what we have been taught in "church" and see if it really is true.

Kudos. Great post. Christianity , like many other things is actually TOO commercial. Great thinking!

[MrJim]

Not true, think of it this way. Like any good parent, God is going to hold us accountable for our mistakes and errs made while on this Earth. Obviously he doesn't want to punish us, but if he feels it neccessary to do so, he will in his perfect justice.

How on earth do you associate this with "good parent"ing? I guess if your kids do something to make you mad you are going to toss them into a fire for all eternity. Great way to teach and hope a child learns. This is why I don't believe in hell.

[General Septem]

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and goodwill, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

:D

[MrJim]

The path of the righteous man is beset on all sides by the inequities of the selfish and the tyranny of evil men. Blessed is he who, in the name of charity and goodwill, shepherds the weak through the valley of darkness, for he is truly his brother's keeper and the finder of lost children. And I will strike down upon thee with great vengeance and furious anger, those who attempt to poison and destroy my brothers. And you will know my name is the Lord when I lay my vengeance upon thee.

:D

Pulp Fiction was a great movie, but, no sir, I don't buy the hell thing. I'll buy the creationism thing fine and well, but when you seriously say that this 'loving creator' will burn his own children (a massive portion of the world), the image of the creator turns into some megalomanic that commits horrendous acts towards the world, horrendous enough to compare him to the devil himself (if there is such a thing as the 'devil').

[ajk]

How on earth do you associate this with "good parent"ing? I guess if your kids do something to make you mad you are going to toss them into a fire for all eternity. Great way to teach and hope a child learns. This is why I don't believe in hell.

Well a parent punishes a child for bad behavior right? God does the same here.

[MrJim]

Well a parent punishes a child for bad behavior right? God does the same here.

There is a big difference between "You're grounded for a week" and "You will burn in hell for eternity".

[yea_thats_right1]

Well a parent punishes a child for bad behavior right? God does the same here.

yes but if he were a better parent he would come down here and get eye level with us, make himself known, and yell at us... but he doesnt.... because hes not real. If he were real, he would realize that showing himself would be the only true way to get his message across... but hes not. so he doesnt. ya dig?

[ajk]

He tries to make himself known. But if the person isn't receptive to it, that's not his fault.

[MrJim]

yes but if he were a better parent he would come down here and get eye level with us, make himself known, and yell at us... but he doesnt.... because hes not real. If he were real, he would realize that showing himself would be the only true way to get his message across... but hes not. so he doesnt. ya dig?

He doesn't really have to "yell" does he? We can hear just fine. How about if you do fucked up shit, fucked up shit happens to you. Call it a "whisper".

[yea_thats_right1]

He tries to make himself known. But if the person isn't receptive to it, that's not his fault.

id be more perceptive to have him stare me in the face rather than having some child molesting priest tell me! and hes god, if he really truely wanted to get our attention and believe in him, he would show himself.... but he doesnt... like i said.

[MrJim]

id be more perceptive to have him stare me in the face rather than having some child molesting priest tell me! and hes god, if he really truely wanted to get our attention and believe in him, he would show himself.... but he doesnt... like i said.

And God takes the heat for the perverts in the churches, again.

[yea_thats_right1]

And God takes the heat for the perverts in the churches, again.

im not blaming god for the actions of the priests... im simply saying, IF god were real, he would be down here spreading his word himself. but hes not, so he isnt.

[ajk]

id be more perceptive to have him stare me in the face rather than having some child molesting priest tell me! and hes god, if he really truely wanted to get our attention and believe in him, he would show himself.... but he doesnt... like i said.

Yes he does, he tries to communicate with us. It's up to us to listen. And if we don't we only will have ourselves to blame for where we end up.

[MrJim]

im not blaming god for the actions of the priests... im simply saying, IF god were real, he would be down here spreading his word himself. but hes not, so he isnt.

I never can figure out what is demanded of God to prove his existence. Suttlety is just never acceptable by atheists. Signs are never good enough. Having no good alternative answer as to what put a very complex puzzle called existence together isn't good enough. As I said before, if your idea of "God" is an old gray-headed dude with a beard up in the clouds somewhere, I agree this god probably doesn't exist. But I believe in an altogether different God.

[General Septem]

im not blaming god for the actions of the priests... im simply saying, IF god were real, he would be down here spreading his word himself. but hes not, so he isnt.

Sure he is, He just works through those who do His works. Anything over and above that is considered a miracle. But God even came down in the flesh Himself though, in the form of Jesus.

[General Septem]

Well a parent punishes a child for bad behavior right? God does the same here.

Well, the former is corrective punishment. The latter cannot be corrective since you can never leave Hell. But Hell is not even a punishment, it's a choice.

[yea_thats_right1]

Yes he does, he tries to communicate with us. It's up to us to listen. And if we don't we only will have ourselves to blame for where we end up.

your answer, while im sure was very well thought out (for you), deaf people cant listen.. because they cant hear... deaf blind mute people cant hear see or speak... how is god communicating with them/?

[MrJim]

Sure he is, He just works through those who do His works. Anything over and above that is considered a miracle. But God even came down in the flesh Himself though, in the form of Jesus.

Agreed. Except for the exclusion of Muhammad and Buddha and all the other "forms" when describing how he "came down". None seems more logical than the other, really.

[yea_thats_right1]

I never can figure out what is demanded of God to prove his existence. Suttlety is just never acceptable by atheists. Signs are never good enough. Having no good alternative answer as to what put a very complex puzzle called existence together isn't good enough. As I said before, if your idea of "God" is an old gray-headed dude with a beard up in the clouds somewhere, I agree this god probably doesn't exist. But I believe in an altogether different God.

all i ask is for a nice long interview.. one in which everyone can see him and ask him the question everyone is DYING to know...where is heaven? lol ok ok that was a horrible pun, i just couldnt help myself!

[ajk]

your answer, while im sure was very well thought out (for you), deaf people cant listen.. because they cant hear... deaf blind mute people cant hear see or speak... how is god communicating with them/?

I'm sure He finds a way, He can do anything.

[MrJim]

all i ask is for a nice long interview.. one in which everyone can see him and ask him the question everyone is DYING to know...where is heaven? lol ok ok that was a horrible pun, i just couldnt help myself!

FUNNY. Let's get ajk and septem to set it up, they apparantly communicate better with the big guy than the rest of us. My God is more than likely too busy smoking a joint and laughing at our ignorance to attend.

[yea_thats_right1]

I'm sure He finds a way, He can do anything.

he can do anything you say? As long as he chooses too? okay, well then why doesnt he just choose to come on down and help sovle some of our bigest problems eh? I kno we did it to ourselves blah blah blah... but if he can do anything then why does he choose to sit back and watch people die? watch little children starve to death? watch my brothers and sisters blow them selves up ? WHY???

[MrJim]

he can do anything you say? As long as he chooses too? okay, well then why doesnt he just choose to come on down and help sovle some of our bigest problems eh? I kno we did it to ourselves blah blah blah... but if he can do anything then why does he choose to sit back and watch people die? watch little children starve to death? watch my brothers and sisters blow them selves up ? WHY???

Because he's tired. Infinite patience he gives and people hate him for every action he makes. I would sit back and watch the world die too if it were me.

[yea_thats_right1]

riiight... that makes sense...

[MrJim]

riiight... that makes sense...

Well, it's like this really...(subject to automatic disbelief of course)...He makes a perfect world, his humans fuck it up. Then, he sends commandments down a mountain to moses. People are still assholes. Then, he gets pissed and floods everything. People are still assholes. Then in attempt to give as much possible tolerance as he can, he sacrifices part of himself and just begs us to "believe". And we're still assholes. Would you care anymore? I wouldn't.

[General Septem]

He's already given us everything we need to fix the world's problems. He didn't say it would be easy.

I mean, think of it this way. You know the Prime Directive? It's from Star Trek, and it forbids outside assistance of any third-world planets by any member of the Federation. Well it's the same thing, really. If we were the ones in some starship, and we had the cure to all Rectum Infumare IV's diseases, but they were still hunting with hand-pounded rock spears, would it really be that great of an idea to just give that shit to them?

[yea_thats_right1]

He's already given us everything we need to fix the world's problems. He didn't say it would be easy.

I mean, think of it this way. You know the Prime Directive? It's from Star Trek, and it forbids outside assistance of any third-world planets by any member of the Federation. Well it's the same thing, really. If we were the ones in some starship, and we had the cure to all Rectum Infumare IV's diseases, but they were still hunting with hand-pounded rock spears, would it really be that great of an idea to just give that shit to them?

you lost me at star trek.... i have some sort of adverse reation when i read or hear the words star trek... i go blind and deaf at the same time.... please stand by................................................ ............................

[General Septem]

you lost me at star trek.... i have some sort of adverse reation when i read or hear the words star trek... i go blind and deaf at the same time.... please stand by................................................ ............................

Alright, I'll cut that part out:

I mean, think of it this way. If we became affluent in space travel, there would have to be a law that forbids outside assistance of any third-world planets by any member of our Federation. Well it's the same thing, really. If we were the ones in some starship, and we had the cure to all Rectum Infumare IV's diseases, but they were still hunting with hand-pounded rock spears, would it really be that great of an idea to just give that shit to them?

Why should God do the same for us? It wouldn't be good for us.

[MrJim]

Alright, I'll cut that part out:

I mean, think of it this way. If we became affluent in space travel, there would have to be a law that forbids outside assistance of any third-world planets by any member of our Federation. Well it's the same thing, really. If we were the ones in some starship, and we had the cure to all Rectum Infumare IV's diseases, but they were still hunting with hand-pounded rock spears, would it really be that great of an idea to just give that shit to them?

Why should God do the same for us? It wouldn't be good for us.

Don't tell Beelzebub but all the talk about star trek is making you sound comparable to a mensan.

[yea_thats_right1]

Alright, I'll cut that part out:

I mean, think of it this way. If we became affluent in space travel, there would have to be a law that forbids outside assistance of any third-world planets by any member of our Federation. Well it's the same thing, really. If we were the ones in some starship, and we had the cure to all Rectum Infumare IV's diseases, but they were still hunting with hand-pounded rock spears, would it really be that great of an idea to just give that shit to them?

Why should God do the same for us? It wouldn't be good for us.

ok then how about just coming down and showing his face or whatever he has and saying hi? whats the harm in that? He sent moses and jesus to spread his word.... why not just cut to the chase and do it himself... then we wouldnt be having this argument :)

[MrJim]

ok then how about just coming down and showing his face or whatever he has and saying hi? whats the harm in that? He sent moses and jesus to spread his word.... why not just cut to the chase and do it himself... then we wouldnt be having this argument :)

Not an argument. A "difference of opinion". :D

[yea_thats_right1]

pfft ya knew what i meant!!

[General Septem]

ok then how about just coming down and showing his face or whatever he has and saying hi? whats the harm in that? He sent moses and jesus to spread his word.... why not just cut to the chase and do it himself... then we wouldnt be having this argument :)

Well obviously He thinks that what He's done is sufficient, and let's face it, someone would complain no matter what He did. At least in Heaven He doesn't have to hear it. :D

[conspiracy]

The New Testament is an account of Jesus and his teachings supposedly is it not?

The book of Paul is and has always been a topic of debate. Some call him the father of the Christians. Mostly the New Testament was mostly the teachings of Christ. Paul was a very proud man, especially while he was in exile. Though he was inspired by God. Also remember that the book of Paul is a Catholic book. There are many Christian sects that do not even include it in their Bible.

Well, someone who agrees with me. ^_^

Glad we agree on something ,lol.

Of course, this does make the assumption that creationism was what actually happened and Christianity is the true faith. It is much fairer to do it the secular way.

There is nothing more I can say about this except what has been said. As far as creationism being true, no one has ever proved that evolution is completely true either, Evolutionist believe what they say not only on science but on faith as well that science has told them everything.

As in verse contradictions.

Ok give me an example of verse contradictions.
What verse contradictions are we referring to?

As in the free will that supposedly lead to original sin.

Ok I see what you are saying. God gave Adam and Eve Free will that led to the original sin of eating of the forbidden fruit. Nope, not fair. It is like your brother or sister did something you got busted for. What in life is fair or just? I agree that it sometimes can be confusing and may cause resentment because we IF ONLY they had obeyed we wouldn't be in this mess. I think that it requires more studying and EVEN more faith. It is hard to explain.

This doesnt answer the question.



Again, it is nothing more than postulation that the bible is true and Jehovah actually exists.



Why did he need to send Jesus? God is omnipotent, right?

God is all powerful. Still something needed to be done to rectify the sins of man. God gave us his only son. Maybe that was proof that he loved us that much? Maybe just maybe he was smart enough to know that.

Again, how is it fair?

It is fair because of the choice that we make. We have all heard the gospel and choose what we wish to believe. It is fair because there is so much that proves what God has said is true.

Freedom of religion is not a christian concept. And we have seen how a nation that espouses christianity as a state religion has issues preserving the rights of people and of the citizen.

Also, try to actually answer the question.

A nation that embraces Muslim values has problems and in most cases even more so. I did answer this question because I stated that the freedom of religion was not just based upon Christian beliefs. What I said was , if you are up for the study , that a country that embraces the word of GOD benefits. Even if you'd take India for example, mostly following Buddha , they have not prospered as efficiently as a Christian nation on average.

Also as a study if you have the time. Look up the prophecies of the Bible vs any other predictions of the future (EVEN NOSTRADAMUS) and see whom is more accurate. Sorry if I missed anything. Thoughts?

[Ausinus]

A nation that embraces Muslim values has problems and in most cases even more so. I did answer this question because I stated that the freedom of religion was not just based upon Christian beliefs. What I said was , if you are up for the study , that a country that embraces the word of GOD benefits. Even if you'd take India for example, mostly following Buddha , they have not prospered as efficiently as a Christian nation on average.

Also as a study if you have the time. Look up the prophecies of the Bible vs any other predictions of the future (EVEN NOSTRADAMUS) and see whom is more accurate. Sorry if I missed anything. Thoughts?


Well my first thought is that India is mainly Hindu.

The second thought is that some highly succesful nations have been non christian.

And the bible prophecies are so vague as to be worthless.

[theicidal maniac]

A nation that embraces Muslim values has problems and in most cases even more so. I did answer this question because I stated that the freedom of religion was not just based upon Christian beliefs. What I said was , if you are up for the study , that a country that embraces the word of GOD benefits. Even if you'd take India for example, mostly following Buddha , they have not prospered as efficiently as a Christian nation on average.

What an arrogant thing to say. "...a country that embraces the word of GOD benefits..." Which god, pray tell, do they have to follow to benefit? OH, YOUR GOD?? How convenient. You know, the god you believe in has said some terrible things in his little book, that, were we to "embrace" them, our "benefits" would be death to nearly everyone. "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." AGAIN I SAY, there was a time when the laws of YOUR god were the law of the land. That time was known as the "dark ages" and is an example of mankind at his absolute worst.


Also as a study if you have the time. Look up the prophecies of the Bible vs any other predictions of the future (EVEN NOSTRADAMUS) and see whom is more accurate. Sorry if I missed anything. Thoughts?

Which predictions would those be???
"There will be earthquakes and, uh, people will fight and try to gain control over one another, and, er, great cities shall rise and fall!!"
oooooohhhhhhh. It's so EERIE, HOW DID THEY KNOW THAT????????

[England Expects]

It's ignorance that shows when someone says India is buddhist and that's why is hasn't prospered.

India is a mix of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Sikh. If you think India isnt prospering, check the growt of the Indian economy for the past 3 years and compare it to the the US and Western Europe. Also check the projected growth of that economy for the next 20 years.

[conspiracy]

Well my first thought is that India is mainly Hindu.

The second thought is that some highly succesful nations have been non christian.

And the bible prophecies are so vague as to be worthless.

My mistake on the main religion in India.

There have been successful evil nations and yes a few non Christian. My opinion. I guess it depends on what you call successful. Japan and China I suppose are good examples. Again my opinion

The Biblical prophecies are not vague to me. Only my opinion.
Great discussion though.

[conspiracy]

What an arrogant thing to say. "...a country that embraces the word of GOD benefits..." Which god, pray tell, do they have to follow to benefit? OH, YOUR GOD?? How convenient. You know, the god you believe in has said some terrible things in his little book, that, were we to "embrace" them, our "benefits" would be death to nearly everyone. "An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind." AGAIN I SAY, there was a time when the laws of YOUR god were the law of the land. That time was known as the "dark ages" and is an example of mankind at his absolute worst.



Which predictions would those be???
"There will be earthquakes and, uh, people will fight and try to gain control over one another, and, er, great cities shall rise and fall!!"
oooooohhhhhhh. It's so EERIE, HOW DID THEY KNOW THAT????????

It's funny how you are the first person the bitch about freedom of speech and equality and such but when I voice my opinion and aswered those questions you get your feathers ruffled. Great job with the BOLD and the COLOR I'm sorry you have such a bad taste in your mouth and you feel like what I have to say is crap. Perhaps someone claiming to believe in God screwed you over once or well I dunno. Look I don't know what went on in this forum before I got here. You seem always ready for fight when I want a discussion.
I'd much rather have a decent discussion then posts with attitude.

[conspiracy]

It's ignorance that shows when someone says India is buddhist and that's why is hasn't prospered.

India is a mix of Hindu, Muslim, Christian and Sikh. If you think India isnt prospering, check the growt of the Indian economy for the past 3 years and compare it to the the US and Western Europe. Also check the projected growth of that economy for the next 20 years.

I apologize for my mistake. I knew what I was trying to say and it did not come across well.

[starry123nights]

It's funny how you are the first person the bitch about freedom of speech and equality and such but when I voice my opinion and aswered those questions you get your feathers ruffled. Great job with the BOLD and the COLOR I'm sorry you have such a bad taste in your mouth and you feel like what I have to say is crap. Perhaps someone claiming to believe in God screwed you over once or well I dunno. Look I don't know what went on in this forum before I got here. You seem always ready for fight when I want a discussion.
I'd much rather have a decent discussion then posts with attitude.

maniac tends to get a lit bend sometimes. He just has to be told calm down every now and then. I don't think he was WRONGED, he just has a different opinion them most of us, most of the time. Every once in awhile (rarely) I have shared the same opinion has him.