23 minutes in Hell

[ajk]

If you don't believe in Hell or God or what have you, or even if you do, I encourage you to read this book. I haven't read it completely yet (I bought it for my cousin as a christmas gift), but just skimming through it I know it could be life changing for many. What it is a man's story of being taken to Hell while alive, and seeing all that goes on there, which from how he puts it is not pretty to say the very least. There's more info on this (including testimony straight from the man himself) here:

http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWiese_23MinutesInHell_Text.htm

[Ausinus]

Sounds like a peice of crap to me.

[ajk]

Did you listen to any of the man's testimony on this? He was very very descriptive on what he saw. Also too, a lot of what he mentions actually matches up with biblical references on this matter.

[Ausinus]

He is just taking pieces out of various medieval literature. Hardly original.

[ajk]

He is just taking pieces out of various medieval literature. Hardly original.

And an example of such would be?

[Ausinus]

Ok, the part I read, bits are just basically taken from the Divine Comedy and put in his own words. The description of hell, the dead and the demons are extremely similar to Inferno.

[ajk]

What about the idea of Jesus taking him away after the fact, not to mention him speaking with Jesus.

Also, in the book he mentions being asked to see Hell again later to confirm what he saw for a few seconds, and God showed it to him again though this time he was an observer only.

[Ausinus]

Similar to the style in which Virgil took Dante out of hell and into purgatory. Besides, is there any evidence that he went to hell? Burn marks, was he reported missing, etc.

[ajk]

Read the part where the guy's wife is speaking on the main page.

[Ausinus]

She just described a seizure thats it.

Ok, the main reason I do not trust him is because he is making money off this by selling his books. It looks like another evangelist scam.

[ajk]

He only put out the books to get the message out about this stuff.

[Ausinus]

He's making money off it. These are the signs of a scam. If he gave out these books for free it might merit investigation. Look at that guy who published that book, the one that was on Oprah.

[ajk]

Still, what good would it do this guy to make something like this up? Money or not, the guy is a christian and I somehow doubt that he would purposely deceive.

And I will ask again how do you explain the fact that he was asked to see Hell again later, and he was shown it again for just a few seconds as an observer only?

[ohreally]

Still, what good would it do this guy to make something like this up? Money or not....

How stupid do you have to be? I think you just answered your own question.

UHH DUHH WHY WOULD HE MAKE THIS UP? So foolish people like you would buy it! :eek:

[ajk]

My point is, if the guy was truly a christian (which from all accounts he seems to be), there would be no point in making up something like this.

[ohreally]

My point is, if the guy was truly a christian (which from all accounts he seems to be), there would be no point in making up something like this.
Yeah but it would be just like you to buy in what anybody says apparently. You have to take into consideration that he may have possibly put his faith intent to profit.

Yes, there would be a point - profit. You don't know if he used if faith to sucker people like you in to buying his book.

He is just spinning false fear into your own mind.

[freakazoid]

Sounds like a peice of crap to me.

Read it. Then post a comment .http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon3.gif

[Ausinus]

[QUOTE=freakazoid]Read it. Then post a comment QUOTE]

Uh, how about no. Im not giving my money to that guy, its most likely just a big scam.

[ajk]

Suit yourself. You'll see how real Hell is when you're down there if you keep up that kind of attitude.

[yea_thats_right1]

i love you guys... i reeally do.. ya'll crack me up!

[Ausinus]

Suit yourself. You'll see how real Hell is when you're down there if you keep up that kind of attitude.

Ok, I might actually acknowledge his "experience" as possible if there was no money gained from his book. Since there is, I have to go with its a scam.

And I hope you get rid of your psychosis soon.

[ajk]

So then by your logic then, any true life book that makes money is a scam too.

[MrBirdy]

Sounds like good literature, just like JJR tolken, thats good literature, well to must people, i prefer robert lewis stevenson, shorter, definetally LOL
as for whether its fact or fiction, its prob fiction, becouse ,AJK, the bible says that no living man may enter hell...

[ajk]

He didn't, his soul did but his body did not go with him.

[Ausinus]

So then by your logic then, any true life book that makes money is a scam too.

If this man altruistically wished to inspire people to follow god, then he would do so in a pro bono manner.

True stories can be validated with empirical evidence.

[General Septem]

True stories can be validated with empirical evidence.

If this is the case, then personal testimony should be considered valid empirical evidence.

[Ausinus]

If this is the case, then personal testimony should be considered valid empirical evidence.

I say again, they need to be backed up. Unless you are prepared to provide physical proof you experienced these things, then dont write about them.

Additionally, this man is a liar. If he really wanted to help people, he would do it pro bono not for profit.

[ajk]

I say again, they need to be backed up. Unless you are prepared to provide physical proof you experienced these things, then dont write about them.


What is it with you people and proof? Since when do you need proof for every damn thing in the world? It's called accepting it for what it is. You'd be wise to learn it.

[Ausinus]

I am an empiricist. I believe all hypotheses and theses need to be tested against observations from the natural world. In short, I need proof.

We need proof, or else how can we trust it?

[ajk]

I am an empiricist. I believe all hypotheses and theses need to be tested against observations from the natural world. In short, I need proof.

We need proof, or else how can we trust it?

As the Bible (2 Corinthians 5:7) reads: "We live by faith, and not by sight"

[Ausinus]

As the Bible (2 Corinthians 5:7) reads: "We live by faith, and not by sight"

That is a bullshit clause included to stop people questioning their faith. Ok, I deem people who take things on faith, such as believing that the sun revolves around the earth, as ignorant.

May I ask, why do you include those letters, Paul didnt even meet jesus according to your bible. Not to mention paul was a misogynist asshole too.

[General Septem]

That is a bullshit clause included to stop people questioning their faith. Ok, I deem people who take things on faith, such as believing that the sun revolves around the earth, as ignorant.

May I ask, why do you include those letters, Paul didnt even meet jesus according to your bible. Not to mention paul was a misogynist asshole too.

Paul was one of the founders of the Church, and an important figure. And no, he was not misogynist.

[ajk]

That is a bullshit clause included to stop people questioning their faith. Ok, I deem people who take things on faith, such as believing that the sun revolves around the earth, as ignorant.


Well I think people who have no faith, or don't believe in a God (going only by what they see) are ignorant too.

[Ausinus]

Hardly. Its those people who invented the computer you are typing on now. Science is empirical in nature.

[ajk]

Hardly. Its those people who invented the computer you are typing on now. Science is empirical in nature.

I don't mean ignorant in that regard. I meant ignorant to the truth.

[Ausinus]

Paul was one of the founders of the Church, and an important figure. And no, he was not misogynist.

You include his professed works but you refuse to include others, such as the gospel of thomas, in the bible. Why?

Have you actually gone through his letters in detail. They're full of "women should keep silent in the churches" and "women must be submissive to their husbands" etc. I also think jesus was either gay or a sexist, because none of his apostles were women.

[Ausinus]

I don't mean ignorant in that regard. I meant ignorant to the truth.

Truth is proved through evidence. Faith is taking things without evidence. The two are mutually exclusive.

[General Septem]

You include his professed works but you refuse to include others, such as the gospel of thomas, in the bible. Why?

It wasn't proven to have been written by Thomas nor by the teachings of Thomas, and was found to be in contradiction to Jesus's true message.


Have you actually gone through his letters in detail. They're full of "women should keep silent in the churches" and "women must be submissive to their husbands" etc.

I have already pointed out in great detail why your belief that he was a misogynist is wrong.


I also think jesus was either gay or a sexist, because none of his apostles were women.

Mary Magdelene can be said to have been a disciple, even though she was not one of the twelve.

[Ausinus]

It wasn't proven to have been written by Thomas nor by the teachings of Thomas, and was found to be in contradiction to Jesus's true message.

Neither have any of the synoptic gospels. The ecumenical councils just didnt like the others because they didnt support their ideas.

[QUOTE}Mary Magdelene can be said to have been a disciple, even though she was not one of the twelve.[/QUOTE]

Why wasnt she? And if you ackowledge she was a disciple, why do you deny women ordination then?

[ajk]

Truth is proved through evidence. Faith is taking things without evidence. The two are mutually exclusive.

If you'd just open your mind to the idea of a God, you'd see there's plenty of evidence out there to support it.

[Ausinus]

I have tried, and cannot.

[General Septem]

Neither have any of the synoptic gospels. The ecumenical councils just didnt like the others because they didnt support their ideas.

Those Gospels through wisdom and investigation were found to be accurate. The other false Gospels were mostly written by people who came up with their own ideas loosely based upon the teachings of Jesus's disciples.


Why wasnt she? And if you ackowledge she was a disciple, why do you deny women ordination then?

For the same reason I said the last twenty times I said it - it's not because Jesus only had male disciples. And even if it was, she still wasn't one of the twelve.

[Ausinus]

Those Gospels through wisdom and investigation were found to be accurate. The other false Gospels were mostly written by people who came up with their own ideas loosely based upon the teachings of Jesus's disciples

And who found them to be accurate? The early church struck many gospels out because they agreed with various groups, not because of their authenticity.

[General Septem]

And who found them to be accurate? The early church struck many gospels out because they agreed with various groups, not because of their authenticity.

More like because they were found to have been written by these "various groups", most of which you would probably refer to as "crazy", "delusional", or "psychotic".

[Ausinus]

More like because they were found to have been written by these "various groups", most of which you would probably refer to as "crazy", "delusional", or "psychotic".

Found by whom? The people who disagreed with them thats who.

Omg, how did you know?:D

[twisted_screams]

If you don't believe in Hell or God or what have you, or even if you do, I encourage you to read this book. I haven't read it completely yet (I bought it for my cousin as a christmas gift), but just skimming through it I know it could be life changing for many. What it is a man's story of being taken to Hell while alive, and seeing all that goes on there, which from how he puts it is not pretty to say the very least. There's more info on this (including testimony straight from the man himself) here:

http://www.spiritlessons.com/Documents/BillWiese_23MinutesInHell_Text.htm


how does one go to hell and yet be alive?

[Ausinus]

Plus I reckon if god wanted to prove himself to people he could have chosen a better way to do it.

[twisted_screams]

I am getting to the point of not even responding to his posts anymore. AJK you need help your brainwashed believing all these lies and bullshit

[Ausinus]

You know I think I reckon a similarity in the arguments of conservatives exists. First they say a statement, back it up with debunked, subjective or inviable "evidence" and then are reduced to saying "i will pray for you" or "i hope you realise your mistake" blah blah. LD

[ajk]

how does one go to hell and yet be alive?

Again only his soul went there, not his physical body.

[ajk]

I am getting to the point of not even responding to his posts anymore. AJK you need help your brainwashed believing all these lies and bullshit

No I think it's the opposite. I don't need the help, it's you that need it.

[ajk]

I have tried, and cannot.

Alright, well just try this and see what happens. I know you don't believe in Him, but try and sit down and ask Him to reveal Himself to you if he is as real as I and others say he is. (and don't just do this because I tell you to, be serious about it). You'll be surprised at what you will find if you do this.

[Ausinus]

No I think it's the opposite. I don't need the help, it's you that need it.

You think....twisted....needs...... help?

HAHA THAT IS SO FUCKING HILARIOUS!

You self righteous bastard, twisted is a very decent person, if anything you should take a page out of her book.

[Ausinus]

Alright, well just try this and see what happens. I know you don't believe in Him, but try and sit down and ask Him to reveal Himself to you if he is as real as I and others say he is. (and don't just do this because I tell you to, be serious about it). You'll be surprised at what you will find if you do this.

Been there, done that, no revelation. Plus, I cant take the whole loving, all poweful god on principle.

[ajk]

Been there, done that, no revelation. Plus, I cant take the whole loving, all poweful god on principle.

Oh really? Did you ask seriously, or did you ask with your mind still closed?

[Ausinus]

I asked god, if he really existed, to reveal himself as the loving, all powerful god you preach. Suprise suprise, no god. Perhaps if I asked to reveal himself as a sadistic egomaniac he might appear.

[ajk]

I asked god, if he really existed, to reveal himself as the loving, all powerful god you preach. Suprise suprise, no god. Perhaps if I asked to reveal himself as a sadistic egomaniac he might appear.

Maybe you didn't know what to look for then. He might have revealed himself, but you just didn't realize it. After you asked, did anything out of the ordinary happen?

[Ausinus]

A car crash nearby.

[ajk]

Was anybody you know, in it the car or nearby said car?

[Ausinus]

No, but they died.

[ajk]

That could have been God trying to show you how quickly life can be taken away possibly. Anything else odd happen around you in the days after you asked?

[Ausinus]

Well if he was trying to reveal himself as the loving god I asked he did a botched job of it. Plus, its purely coincidence, They were drunk anyway.

And no, nothing unusual happened.

[ajk]

Well if he was trying to reveal himself as the loving god I asked he did a botched job of it. Plus, its purely coincidence, They were drunk anyway.


Not neccessarily. He may have been trying to use that out of love for you to show you that you could die at any time yourself, and that if you didn't accept him as your God you would end up away from him after the fact.

[Ausinus]

Maybe, maybe, maybe. Thats the operative word. It was far more likely a coincidence caused by the fact it was schoolies week, they were drinking drunk and we lived near a major road.

[ajk]

Maybe, maybe, maybe. Thats the operative word. It was far more likely a coincidence caused by the fact it was schoolies week, they were drinking drunk and we lived near a major road.

I'm not talking about them, I just mean that God used that negative to try and wake you up to the fact that He does exist before it was too late.

[Ausinus]

Yeah well I dont base my life on conjecture.

[ajk]

Yeah well I dont base my life on conjecture.

See there's your problem. Sure you asked, but it seems to me God could have done anything, and you still wouldn't have believed.

[Ausinus]

Look, if he is truly the omnipotent being you believe he is, then it astounds me why he wouldnt do something so unusual that it would give me irrefutable evidence as to his existence.

[ajk]

Look, if he is truly the omnipotent being you believe he is, then it astounds me why he wouldnt do something so unusual that it would give me irrefutable evidence as to his existence.

Well let me ask you then, what would God have had to do in order for you to believe?

[Ausinus]

Hmm, lets see. Perhaps like cure AIDS, or heal all amputees, or stop world hunger. Any of these in such a way that it shows the existence of an omnipotent creator.

Plus, I wont trust him if he does anything to just me, only if he helps others in the process.

[General Septem]

I think you both need help... no offense.