Here is a post for the fools

[thelken]

First and foremost, welcome to reality. This is a place where the real takes precedence over the stupidity and ignorance. Legal abortion has many more benefits than not. The most realevent benefit is population control, I have done my homework on the matter. There would be millions more people in this country and these millions would reproduce and populate exponentially in the following years (if you don't understand this then you are an idiot). We all know that there is a population problem in not only this country, but the entire world.

Yes, all of us pro-choice people understand the fact that you folks think that its murder to kill a human fetus. Well, collectively, its not possible to draw the line that separates "cells" and "humans", even you idiots can understand that right? Answer me this; is it involuntary manslaughter when a pregnant woman gets into a car accident and kills her unborn "child". The answer is a resounding NO. After all, its a human right? Well, Its not up to me or to you to decide whether or not its a human. The fact is, is that the unborn child BELONGS to the mother.

Before getting pissed, stop and think about what I just said. the "child" belongs to the mother WHICH IS WHY SHE ISN'T GUILTY OF INVOLUNTARY MANSLAUGHTER.


Ok, so we all agree that it is not involuntary manslaughter to get in a car accident with an unborn child, it is an accident after all. Yet for some reason it is IM if you do it to an adult, or especially an already born child thats with you. So basically, this unborn thing is not a human that can be involuntarily murdered. I agree.

Thats where the problem comes in. You abortion haters have a double standard in that, these "children" can not be murdered accidentally, but they can be "murdered" on purpose? What a crock...

That thing that makes the car accident not involuntary manslaughter is that fact that she OWNS her "child." That, in and of itself, states that owning the "child" makes it NOT illegal or unethical to kill the "child", in an accidental situation. C'MON WE ALL AGREE ON THIS. But why is it that if you kill a stranger in an accidental situation, IT IS manslaughter?...Why?

The reason is that most people draw a line between humans and embryos. You get in trouble for killing a human (accidental or not), and you do not get in trouble for killing a non-human (just like the mother in the car accident thing).

It comes down to ownership of your womb. (if anyone can even comes close to arguing this point, with any validity, I'll actually take the time to respond)

The law, as well as around half of the general populace, say that its OK to end the life of an unborn child. What does that mean? It means that we are right and you are wrong. After all, the majority is the determining factor in what becomes right or wrong. (Its the basis of all cultures and rules, and its called social constructionalism).That coupled with the fact that we all agree (based on above)that the ownership of the womb dictates whether or not the murder of your own unborn child is illegal, unethical, or neither, just doesn't leave much of an argument for you people...does it? I don't you people feeling this strongly about all of the REAL murders happening in this city, this state, or this country. Happening to people that actually have a place in this world, society or economy. What the fuck is that shit?...

Its another double standard.

ITS NOT YOUR FUCKING CHOICE TO DECIDE IF A MOTHER OR A COUPLE WANTS TO KEEP THEIR CHILD OR NOT, MIND YOUR OWN FUCKING BUSINESS.

[Ausinus]

Some excellent points thelken. All I can say is: Damn Straight. :D

The foetus is inviable outside the mother. It is utterly and completely dependent on her. It belongs to her, as you said.

And here are some constitutional violations caused by abortion banning.

FOURTH AMENDMENT

"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, nd no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."

The people, which is defined as those born or naturalised in the US, have the right to be secure in their persons from an unreasonable search. The idea that the government can even attempt to outlaw an act which goes on inside the mother's womb with her consent, counts as prosecution upon the basis of an unreasonable search, which violates this clause amendment. Additionally, doctors cannot give their reports saying that she has had an abortion without her consent.

FIFTH AMENDMENT

"No person shall be held to answer for any capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offence to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation"

The mother cannot be required to say she has had an abortion in court, neither can the abortionist, if we were to ban abortion. Nor can you deprive her of her liberty.

EIGTH AMENDMENT

"Excessive bail shall not be required, nor excessive fines imposed, nor cruel and unusual punishments inflicted."

If you ban abortion on demand, but not for rape, then you are essentially saying that banning of abortion is a punishment for sex, and counts as cruel and unusual. Additionally, forcing the mother to carry a child of rape can have severe psychological damage, and also counts as cruel.

NINTH AMENDMENT

"The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

You cannot construe the right of life, which only appears in the constitution as for those "born or naturalised", to deprive the mother the right to privacy and bodily autonomy.

FOURTEENTH AMENDMENT

"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."

Foeti are not born or naturalised, and as such do not come under the protection of the constitution. But since the mother's do, you cannot deprive her of life or liberty, nor deny the right to abortion on demand. If you give mothers the right to abort due to rape, then you have to extent protection from prosecution to all mothers, as defined by the equal protection clause.

PRO CHOICE IS ANTI FASCIST!

[ajk]

The law, as well as around half of the general populace, say that its OK to end the life of an unborn child. What does that mean? It means that we are right and you are wrong. After all, the majority is the determining factor in what becomes right or wrong.



The law can say whatever the hell they want. But that does not make abortion right by any means. If the government suddenly said it would be ok to steal, would that be right too? I don't think so.

[who897]

The law can say whatever the hell they want. But that does not make abortion right by any means. If the government suddenly said it would be ok to steal, would that be right too? I don't think so.

1) The law is enforceble, so go ahead do something illegal and get caught
2) Abortion is a choice, there is no right or wrong there.
3) That is a hypothetical question that can't be answered because the government has not put in to law a clause for the procurement of goods w/o compensation
4) The people (you know the majority) elect their officals. The said officials create bills. (Remeber officals are now working for the masses who elected them) These bills get voted on, if enough votes by elected officials are given (I count the veto as a vote) this bill is sent to judical branch for evaluation to see if it's constitutinal. If it's given the OK this bill can now become law. This law is the end result of the majority being represented, by default this is what the masses wanted.
A) Stealing is unconstitutional therefore cannot become law
B) Abortion violates no constitutional amendments and is therefore legal
C)As Aus has said before Right and Wrong are subjective, open your eyes
5) "I don't think so", well we already knew that, you don't think at all.

[something]

First of all we have to understand that ajk is a idiot, and he doesn't know better then what he says, so there's no reason to debate with him. Second of all, is it very rare that you are against abortion in any other cases then religus, and since most people get that you can't make people have a religion, if they don't want to. And then the religus say that you go to hell if you do an abortion, becouse that's a murder. As thelken sayed, it's not a human, and the bible says it's okay to kill non-human things, and so do also most guverments in the world, aslong it's necesery. And abortion isn't always necesery, but in most cases it is, so stop debating about it, I'm pretty upsett over that this forum even exist.

[who897]

Ummm, ok, but I have absolutly no idea what you are saying. Some of the sentences made absolutly no sense.

[Ausinus]

First of all we have to understand that ajk is a idiot, and he doesn't know better then what he says, so there's no reason to debate with him. Second of all, is it very rare that you are against abortion in any other cases then religus, and since most people get that you can't make people have a religion, if they don't want to. And then the religus say that you go to hell if you do an abortion, becouse that's a murder. As thelken sayed, it's not a human, and the bible says it's okay to kill non-human things, and so do also most guverments in the world, aslong it's necesery. And abortion isn't always necesery, but in most cases it is, so stop debating about it, I'm pretty upsett over that this forum even exist.

Ill translate.

First of all we have to understand ajk is an idiot, he doesnt know any better, so there is no reason to debate with him.

Second, it is very rare an irreligious person is prolife, and since you cannot force a religion upon someone, then women should be able to choose if they want.

The bible says its ok to kill non human things, and as thelken said, its not human.

Abortion isnt always necessary, but in some cases it is. Stop debating about it, Im suprised this forum even exists.

Dont worry something, I know hard hard it is for people to learn english :D

[ajk]

1) The law is enforceble, so go ahead do something illegal and get caught


That's not the point. The law may say it's ok to do, but that doesn't mean we should do it.


2) Abortion is a choice, there is no right or wrong there

Wrong. The woman may be choosing to murder her child, but she is still wrong for doing it.

[Ausinus]

In your view, however in the view of pro choice mother's they can if they want, and thus unless you force your religion upon others (which is illegal) then you should just stfu.

[ajk]

I will never stfu, not when innocent blood is being shed like this.

[Ausinus]

Oh im sorry, I though you believed in original sin, which means they arent innocent are they now?

By trying to ban abortion, you are trying to force your opinions upon others. Since this is religiously based; first amendment says NO!

PRO LIFE IS PRO FASCIST!

[ajk]

Oh im sorry, I though you believed in original sin, which means they arent innocent are they now?

True in a sense, but that isn't their fault, nor is it their fault the woman got pregnant with them. As I said before abortion does to babies or "foeti", what Hitler did to the Jews. That is killing them because they exist.

[Ausinus]

No, we are killing them because they are interfering with the woman's right to bodily autonomy.

[ajk]

No, we are killing them because they are interfering with the woman's right to bodily autonomy.

Call it what you want, but you're still in effect doing what Hitler did.

[Ausinus]

Call it what you want, but you're still in effect doing what Hitler did.

We are not advocating killing of ALL foeti, we are advocating a woman's right to kill a foetus should it interfere with her desire to bodily autonomy.

Pro life is inherently more fascist, as it only gives women the one option, and strips her of bodily autonomy.

[ajk]

Pro life is inherently more fascist, as it only gives women the one option, and strips her of bodily autonomy.

In most cases the woman stripped herself of that autonomy when she chose to have sex.

[Ausinus]

In most cases the woman stripped herself of that autonomy when she chose to have sex.

Uh no you idiot, tu sexiste, something called rape, and contraceptive failure, and did you not read the posts at the beginning of this thread, its breaches the 8th amendment.

[ajk]

Rape is one thing, but contraceptive failure is another. Again if you don't know the risks going in, that's your own fault.

[Ausinus]

No its the fault of a shoddy sex education course marred by right wing protesters such as yourself.

Do you know what my avatar says: Up your's Bush, Im keeping my right to choose!

[ajk]

No its the fault of a shoddy sex education course marred by right wing protesters such as yourself.


It's not all on them. We have a brain for a reason. If you're not smart enough to use it so you understand that sex can cause unwanted pregnancy (with or without contraceptives), then I don't know what to tell you.

[Ausinus]

It's not all on them. We have a brain for a reason. If you're not smart enough to use it so you understand that sex can cause unwanted pregnancy (with or without contraceptives), then I don't know what to tell you.

Not if you are not educated in the proper method of contraceptive selection anduse. A lot of pregnancies are caused by improper selection, use and disposal.

If you are educated enough in contraceptives, then the risk of it is extremely small, which will make abortions rarer.

[ajk]

Yes but the risk is still there, it's not foolproof and never will be.

[Ausinus]

It is very small, in which case it is out of your control. If you double up on contraceptives then the chances become almost non existant. You have to factor in fertility and the mesntrual cycle too.

[yea_thats_right1]

[QUOTE=ajk]That's not the point. The law may say it's ok to do, but that doesn't mean we should do it.QUOTE]


if god sent another profit who re wrote the 10 comandments and suddenly made staeling ok... how would you feel about that AJK.... god says you can do it.. so now it must be right

[Ausinus]

Now kids, lets learn why the 10 commandments are not viable laws.

Criminal Legislation must have the following things;
-Definition; the law must define the act, including intent of the law and grounds for prosecution upon breakage of said law.
-Dating; when the law is enacted, and upon what date it will either expire or be resubmitted for review.
-Degrees; the law must specify the degrees of the offense, and what punishments are merited by each of these degrees.
-Punishment; the punishment(s) for breaking the law.
-Exceptions; what circumstances permit the defendant to acquittal, or an ease of the punishment.

For example, here is the a roughly legislated version of the graven images part of the first commandment.

"This law, in effect upon the date of the 7th of January 2007, and ending its effect upon such time as it is repealed by due process of law, or through expiration upon the date of the 7th of January 2011.

It is henceforth a criminal act to participate in the manufacture, purchase or sale of graven images, where graven images are those objects depicting, or constructed in the likeness of, anything inhabiting the sky, sea or land. Additionally, these graven images shall not be worshipped, where worship is a praise, honour, or devotion directed at the image as a supernatural being, or a representation thereof.

A person may be prosecuted and declared guilty upon these grounds should a witness, who is proved to be in the right state of mind and to have no malicious intent through testifying, provides reasonable testimony that the defendant has praticpated in either the manufacture, sale, purchase or worship of a graven image, and the defendant has been proved to have both mens rea, and actus reus. Also, a warrant to search the premises of the defendant's property, or their effects, shall be issued in accordance with the fourth amendment to the united states constitution.

Violation of this law, in the case of manufacture, shall result in a fine based upon both the value of these images, and their amount, in the case of sale, a confiscation of assets totalling the amount of $10,000, in the case of purchase, confiscation of the image and a fine equating to the value of the image, and in the case of worship, imprisonment for the period of 5 years. Exception shall be given to this legislation only upon proof that the defendant is not in the right state of mind."

See:D

If a commandment were like this, then it could be law. Even so, this law is in violation of several amendments, namely the first.

I dont know why I actually took the time to write a law about graven images. Maybe im destined to be a lawyer :D

[ohreally]

In most cases the woman stripped herself of that autonomy when she chose to have sex.
Wow you really crave stripping Women from their rights, don't you? You're a real power hungry extreme right wing sexist prick! You have never once consistently talked about punishing both the male and female - you only want to punish females. You obviously are easily influenced into what anybody tells you (we can probably "thank" your church or parents for making you so closed minded now though). Too bad I wasn't a salesman - I'd stop at your house first. BUY SOME JESUS CHRIST ACTION FIGURES! :p ONLY 99.95!!!!!!!! :D

[Ausinus]

No actually he is pissed at women because his mum tried to abort him. But his conservative fuckwit father stopped her.

"I am woman, hear me roar, in numbers to great to ignore"

Seriously, according to ajk its like feminism never happened. Lets hear it for germaine giving him his come uppance :D

[ohreally]

No actually he is pissed at women because his mum tried to abort him. But his conservative fuckwit father stopped her.

"I am woman, hear me roar, in numbers to great to ignore"

Seriously, according to ajk its like feminism never happened. Lets hear it for germaine giving him his come uppance :D

That really explains it all. It must have been passed down from his crazy Dad. A shame though - only if the little focker could wake up and make choices for himself and think for himself rather than his crazy Dad and Church do that for him.... oh well. AJK will continue to be a sexist right wing prick for the rest of his life, until he is shipped out into Iraq because he probably supported Bush - and then, maybe just then, will the focker realize what he has done. :D

[Ausinus]

Yup, I totally agree.

[ajk]

It is very small, in which case it is out of your control. If you double up on contraceptives then the chances become almost non existant. You have to factor in fertility and the mesntrual cycle too.

It's not out of your control, because you still can choose to not have sex. It is always in your control and you should be responsible for the consequences of your actions.

[Ausinus]

So? A person can have sex if they want. So long as they are both of age and unrelated its fine.

[ajk]

Yes but you're missing the point. If people would think with their heads instead of their bodies, many many abortions would be prevented.

[Ausinus]

THe problem is sex education, if you educate people about proper contraceptive usage and how to communicate with your partner about sex you will have a far lower teen pregnancy rate. As demonstrated by our 18 per 1000 teen pregnancies to your 90 per 1000. That means that abortions will be rarer.

Most abortions occur prior to ten weeks anyway, they are still in the embryonic stage which is perfectly alright to abort.

[ohreally]

It's not out of your control, because you still can choose to not have sex. It is always in your control and you should be responsible for the consequences of your actions.
Really? So I guess if someone got raped it was still in their control to you, right? So the consequences still apply to you.

[Ausinus]

Really? So I guess if someone got raped it was still in their control to you, right?

He says that it will be better in the long run for women who get raped to have the baby, because he is a misogynist.

[ohreally]

He says that it will be better in the long run for women who get raped to have the baby, because he is a misogynist.
I'm not too shocked AJK would believe that because ... well of his sexist profile :P

AJK does not take into consideration the feelings of others. He obviously hates Women - and feels he needs to be the ruler. Yeah lets force someone who just got raped to have a baby.... pshh...

[ajk]

THe problem is sex education, if you educate people about proper contraceptive usage and how to communicate with your partner about sex you will have a far lower teen pregnancy rate. As demonstrated by our 18 per 1000 teen pregnancies to your 90 per 1000. That means that abortions will be rarer.

Most abortions occur prior to ten weeks anyway, they are still in the embryonic stage which is perfectly alright to abort.

It's never alright to abort, ever. It's wrong no matter when you do it.

As far as sex education being a problem, I get that. But the thing is again, it is not fool proof. You can use a condom and still get pregnant. If you really want to avoid pregnancy the only completely fool proof way is to abstain.

[Ausinus]

Oh come off it an embryo is hardly a human its basically a bunch of cells. Around 85% of women have abortions done in that period now.

Abstinence may be the most effective, but its the least practical. If you press abstinence upon a person, then they will be more likely to have sex due to the buildup of sexual tension. The urge to copulate is a natural human urge. This is why abstinence only education fails so miserably.

Its like saying if you want to lose weight, the best strategy is to not eat.

[ajk]

Oh come off it an embryo is hardly a human its basically a bunch of cells. Around 85% of women have abortions done in that period now.

It is a life right from conception. You may not like it, but that's just how it is.


Abstinence may be the most effective, but its the least practical. If you press abstinence upon a person, then they will be more likely to have sex due to the buildup of sexual tension. The urge to copulate is a natural human urge. This is why abstinence only education fails so miserably.

Its like saying if you want to lose weight, the best strategy is to not eat.

That's entirely different. You have to eat in order to survive. You don't have to have sex to survive. You can live just fine without it.

[Ausinus]

It is a life right from conception. You may not like it, but that's just how it is.

Ita bunch of cells, and more embryos are lost naturally than are ever aborted or carried through.


That's entirely different. You have to eat in order to survive. You don't have to have sex to survive. You can live just fine without it.

Reproduction is one of the key driving forces behind our species perpetuation. It is the thing that drives natural selection. We are made to have sex, so to speak.

The point of the analogy was to shows its impracticality.

[ajk]

It's only as impractical as you think it is. It's not impossible, it can be done if you want it bad enough.

[ajk]

Ita bunch of cells, and more embryos are lost naturally than are ever aborted or carried through.

That doesn't matter. Cells or not it has it's own special DNA, it's growing by the day through the cells dividing, etc. Therefore it is a life.

[Ausinus]

That doesn't matter. Cells or not it has it's own special DNA, it's growing by the day through the cells dividing, etc. Therefore it is a life.

It is life, but it isnt human life. It is a simple multicallular eukaryote, utterly incapable of living without the mother's support. It is basically a parasite, living off her.

[who897]

That doesn't matter. Cells or not it has it's own special DNA, it's growing by the day through the cells dividing, etc. Therefore it is a life.

It's a fucking STD until it's borne. A Virus, a cancer, a (damn you for already saying this) parasite. All of which have their own "special" DNA, and have their own "special" purpose.

[Ausinus]

Im sorry T_T

Just to point out, a virus has RNA, and isnt alive.

[ajk]

It is life, but it isnt human life. It is a simple multicallular eukaryote, utterly incapable of living without the mother's support. It is basically a parasite, living off her.


Ok it may not be a actual human yet (in form only), but the fact is it is still a life. A life we cannot just snuff out.

[Ausinus]

So? We kill animals all the time.

Plus we could use the stem cells for research.

[ajk]

But again that is different. They are used for our food (some at least).

[Ausinus]

And we can use the embryos for stem cell research.

[ajk]

Yes but you can do the same with adult stem cells. Also you can take cord blood after the baby has been born.

[Ausinus]

Yes but you can do the same with adult stem cells. Also you can take cord blood after the baby has been born.

No, embryonic cells are completely undiffrentiated and have greater regenerative properties. Adult cells cant form some tissues, neither can umbilical cord blood, such as nerve tissues. Jeez dont you know anything about biology?

[ajk]

But to do that you have to have an abortion, which is wrong.

[Ausinus]

No, a lot of embryos dont attach to the uterus anyway.

Think of it, if someone become paraplegic due to nerve breakage we could regenerate their shattered nerves and help them to walk again. We can sacrifice a potential life to improve or save an existing one.

[ajk]

We're all gonna die anyway though. At least give that child a chance to live. You've lived, the child hasn't yet.

[ajk]

No, a lot of embryos dont attach to the uterus anyway.


Let me ask you this then, is it actually possible then to do the stem cell research and keep the fetus alive in the womb?

[Ausinus]

We're all gonna die anyway though. At least give that child a chance to live. You've lived, the child hasn't yet.

Yeah but what if its a 20 year old guy who has his whole life ahead of him. We could also use it to replenish bone marrow to help cure children's leukemia.

[ajk]

But again he's lived, the child hasn't yet.

And I ask again, is it actually possible to do stem cell research without harming the fetus?

[Ausinus]

But again he's lived, the child hasn't yet. And I ask again, is it actually possible to do stem cell research without harming the fetus?

They have to be in embyo stage, or else we have to take the foetus' spinal cord cells to get them. You can research how stem cells grow in utero, but you wont be able to test their medical applications unless you take stem cells from it. Im not sure if they can do it without harming the embryo.


But again he's lived, the child hasn't yet.

What about a child with children's leukemia or haemophilia? Better we help both the mother who wanted the abortion and another person who gets the stem cells than help just an embryo who may not even survive.

[ajk]

They have to be in embyo stage, or else we have to take the foetus' spinal cord cells to get them. You can research how stem cells grow in utero, but you wont be able to test their medical applications unless you take stem cells from it. Im not sure if they can do it without harming the embryo.


Well until you can, it's still going to be wrong. You can spin it anyway you want, but it's not gonna make it right.

It's selfish really. You're trying to save a life at the expense of another life. That just doesn't work. The ends don't justify the means.

[Ausinus]

Well until you can, it's still going to be wrong. You can spin it anyway you want, but it's not gonna make it right.

It's selfish really. You're trying to save a life at the expense of another life. That just doesn't work.

An embryo is alive, to an extent, yet only a potential life, as the chances of its survival are far from assured. I would rather use the embryo's stem cells to help others and improve their lives if it is not going to develop anyway. By using aborted embryos, you help more than one person, the mother who wanted the abortion, and the people who receive the benefits of stem cells rather than just the embryo. An embryo cannot be put on par with existing humans in terms of value.

And as a side note, I support the reclassification of adult stem cells as progenitor cells due to their limited capacity for cellular diffrentiation.

[Ausinus]

Here are some of the things that could be cured using embryonic stem cells.

-Brain Damage
-Cancer
-Spinal Cord injury
-Muscular damage
-Heart Damage
-Missing teeth
-Baldness
-Blindness
-Deafness

[ajk]

By using aborted embryos, you help more than one person, the mother who wanted the abortion, and the people who receive the benefits of stem cells rather than just the embryo. An embryo cannot be put on par with existing humans in terms of value.

By doing this though, you're basically cutting off your nose to spite your face. Besides why can't they take the stem cells from a miscarriage? Couldn't they do it that way instead?

[Ausinus]

A miscarriage usually yields a foetus, which does not have the correct undiffrentated cells that embryos do, or has had some other dysfunction that makes them unsuitable for medical research.

Most of the embryos probably wont come from the uterus anyway. There are 1000s of spare IVF embryos we can use.

[ajk]

Looks like you don't need abortion for stem cell research now

http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?chanID=sa003&articleID=F4BB3ACB-E7F2-99DF-349FD71C1164C66D&ref=rss

[Ausinus]

It says in this article that embryonic stems cells are more effective than the ones in amniotic fluid. Additionally you wouldnt get many of these cells, you would get more from the embryo.

"compared with other types of pluripotent stem cells--save embryonic stem cells--AFS cells are "truly pluripotent"

Plus my main argument for abortion is freedom of choice anyway, but stem cell research was a useful side effect.

[ajk]

Either way, it's still wrong to murder. Regardless of what reason you have for it.

[Ausinus]

Its not murder, you have to kill another human being to murder. Its just killing, and in this case the benefits outweigh the detriments.

[ajk]

No, the negatives outweigh the positives. You're taking another life away to preserve another. That's not right (unless in self defense). And that is still a life in there, therefore it is murder.

[Ausinus]

You cant compare the potential human in an embryo to an already existing one in terms of value. Thats the epitome of eschatological irresponsibility, just like the HPV vaccine controversy.

[ajk]

Every single life though has value, even those unborn. You can't rob it of it's chance at life before it's even born.

[Ausinus]

Ok, but what if sacrificing one potential human life to saves of helps a number of existing ones?

[who897]

Individual sacrifice for the good of the whole type thing?

[ajk]

Ok, but what if sacrificing one potential human life to saves of helps a number of existing ones?

That doesn't matter. Once again the ends do not justify the means. If you can save the fetus and still help the existing lives that's fine. Otherwise no.

[Ausinus]

ITS NOT A FOETUS! You know nothing about biology do you? Its an embryo that we are talking about here.

[ajk]

Embryo, fetus I don't care what you call it. Life is life and cannot be taken away just because of inconveince. Life isn't fair, we all have our inconveinces. We deal with them and move on.

[ohreally]

Life isn't fair, we all have our inconveinces. We deal with them and move on.
I think that's your problem.

[ajk]

What do you mean?

[Ausinus]

At least I dont rely on moral consequence as a form of justice, I try to do what I can in the real world.

And abortion is necessary to maintain a nation where people are free.

[ajk]

And abortion is necessary to maintain a nation where people are free.

No it's not. Abortion is not neccessary at all. Never has nor will it ever be, no matter what the world may say.

[Ausinus]

No it's not. Abortion is not neccessary at all. Never has nor will it ever be, no matter what the world may say.

Let me tell you this, did you know that in ancient times nomadic societies used to kill children that they couldnt support? Postnatally. Even the Israelites did it.

If we dont give women the right to choose what to do with their bodies, then that is anathema to a nation of liberty.

[ohreally]

No it's not. Abortion is not neccessary at all. Never has nor will it ever be, no matter what the world may say.
Yes it is.
For instance, if a mother will die giving birth - then she shouldn't be forced to die by a nut job like you. No matter what you believe.

[ajk]

If we dont give women the right to choose what to do with their bodies, then that is anathema to a nation of liberty.

But in a lot of cases they made the choice when they had sex. After they really shouldn't have a say. If they didn't want to get pregnant they should have used self control. They didn't, so now they have to deal with the consequences.

As for rape, again it is unfortunate but as I said before life is not fair. We all have our own crosses to bear in one form or another. We need to learn to accept things for what they are, and try to move forward as best we can after that. We should take these lives as a blessing, not a curse.

[ajk]

Yes it is.
For instance, if a mother will die giving birth - then she shouldn't be forced to die by a nut job like you. No matter what you believe.

Again it's unfortunate, however allowing the baby to be born is for the greater good of society in general.

[Ausinus]

But in a lot of cases they made the choice when they had sex. After they really shouldn't have a say. If they didn't want to get pregnant they should have used self control. They didn't, so now they have to deal with the consequences.

YOU MISOGYNIST ASSHOLE, I HOPE SOME FEMINIST CUTS OFF YOUR BALLS AND SHOVES THEM DOWN YOUR THROAT!

[QUOTE[As for rape, again it is unfortunate but as I said before life is not. We all have our own crosses to bear in one form or another. We need to learn to accept things for what they are, and try to move forward as best we can after that. We should take these lives as a blessing, not a curse.[/QUOTE]

The Church teaches that in order to make god happy we must suffer for him
- Robert Ingersoll.

[ohreally]

Again it's unfortunate, however allowing the baby to be born is for the greater good of society in general.

How is that? The baby isn't contributing anything to society you twit.

Who are you to judge the value her life?
As far as I'm concerned, she should have full control of her body. It's not yours you power hungry corrupted "cathololic" twit.

[Ausinus]

Again it's unfortunate, however allowing the baby to be born is for the greater good of society in general.

No, the greater good would be allowing the mother to live so she can pass on her skills and knowledge to another of her children should she have any.

[ajk]

YOU MISOGYNIST ASSHOLE, I HOPE SOME FEMINIST CUTS OFF YOUR BALLS AND SHOVES THEM DOWN YOUR THROAT!


Why because I think women (and the men too for that matter) should take responsibility for what they do?

[ajk]

No, the greater good would be allowing the mother to live so she can pass on her skills and knowledge to another of her children should she have any.

No it wouldn't. Again the ends don't justify the means. You're taking away the life of someone who has yet to be born to preserve another. Isn't right by any means.

[Ausinus]

No it wouldn't. Again the ends don't justify the means. You're taking away the life of someone who has yet to be born to preserve another. Isn't right by any means.

You have priority issues :mad:. We have enough overpopulation as it is, and it would benefit society to have a few abortions.

[ajk]

How is that? The baby isn't contributing anything to society you twit.

Who are you to judge the value her life?
As far as I'm concerned, she should have full control of her body. It's not yours you power hungry corrupted "cathololic" twit.

I'm not judging her life I'm saying all life has value. All. Including the unborn. As such you cannot purposefully kill it.

[Ausinus]

Why because I think women (and the men too for that matter) should take responsibility for what they do?

Ok, then how do you propose the men are punished?

[ohreally]

Why because I think women (and the men too for that matter) should take responsibility for what they do?
What do you mean you ignorant sexist? You never have once (with the exception of me bringing it up before) have talked about what the punishment should be for males. You want to take control of Women, because your own Mom nearly aborted you (damn too bad).

[ajk]

You have priority issues :mad:. We have enough overpopulation as it is, and it would benefit society to have a few abortions.

Bullcrap. This is why society has gone down the drain. We've forgotten how precious life is.

[Ausinus]

Bullcrap. This is why society has gone down the drain. We've forgotten how precious life is.

We are stripping our planet of resources, Im surprised we havent hit carrying capacity already. There is not enough water or food to go around, and its only a matter of time before the situation becomes critical.

We could spend the money from supporting teen mothers that is freed by abortion on other things.

[ajk]

What do you mean you ignorant sexist? You never have once (with the exception of me bringing it up before) have talked about what the punishment should be for males. You want to take control of Women, because your own Mom nearly aborted you (damn too bad).

I think the man should have to take care of the child too. They are both equally responsible for what happened, and because of that they should own up to what happened. Having abortion is not owning up to it. It's killing someone because of something you did wrong. That's what it is. You're punishing a innocent being because of your own faults.

[Ausinus]

So its the woman's fault if she got raped?

[ajk]

We could spend the money from supporting teen mothers that is freed by abortion on other things.

But again the ends do not justify the means. You cannot willfully kill for any reason.

[ajk]

So its the woman's fault if she got raped?

No I'm not saying that. It's unfortunate if that happens, but at the same time as I said crosses to bear. We take these fetuses, babies, whatever for granted today. They are not a curse, but rather they are blessings each and every one of them. They deserve to be treated as such.

[Ausinus]

No I'm not saying that. It's unfortunate if that happens, but at the same time as I said crosses to bear. We take these fetuses, babies, whatever for granted today. They are not a curse, but rather they are blessings each and every one of them. They deserve to be treated as such.

Yeah, its a real blessing when the mother gets extreme psychological trauma.

[ohreally]

Bullcrap. This is why society has gone down the drain. We've forgotten how precious life is.
Your religion itself is hypercritical. Don't Catholics support capitol punishment? Your kind obviously helped people like Bush get in office, and now innocent lives are being destroyed over in Iraq. Yeah you really are accomplishing a lot.

You're an evil sexist hypocrite that doesn't belong in society. You have no basis for anything, but whine about your own opinions being the dominant one in society. Well get this through your thick skull, this isn't the 1800s - we're are much more knowledgeable society. You on the other hand,a re stuck in the 1800s and continue the good old guessing game.

[ajk]

Yeah, its a real blessing when the mother gets extreme psychological trauma.

That life is a blessing no matter how you look at it. Whether it came up through rape or whatever it's still a blessing. Even if the mom doesn't realize it at first.

[ajk]

You're an evil sexist hypocrite that doesn't belong in society. You have no basis for anything, but whine about your own opinions being the dominant one in society. Well get this through your thick skull, this isn't the 1800s - we're are much more knowledgeable society. You on the other hand,a re stuck in the 1800s and continue the good old guessing game.

Doesn't matter the year. Wrong is wrong always. Whether it be 1850, or 2050.

[Ausinus]

That life is a blessing no matter how you look at it. Whether it came up through rape or whatever it's still a blessing. Even if the mom doesn't realize it at first.

No, because she is busy being reminded of how she was violated in a very private area by a total stranger.

[ohreally]

Doesn't matter the year. Wrong is wrong always. Whether it be 1850, or 2050.
That proves right there how stupid you. Too bad your Mom didn't follow through. One less dumb brainwashed conservative in society.

[Ausinus]

Doesn't matter the year. Wrong is wrong always. Whether it be 1850, or 2050.

IT DOES CHANGE! MORALS CHANGE! MORALITY IS SUBJECTIVE! IT VARIES CONTEXTUALLY AND CULTURALLY!

[ajk]

IT DOES CHANGE! MORALS CHANGE! MORALITY IS SUBJECTIVE! IT VARIES CONTEXTUALLY AND CULTURALLY!

Our morals may change, however what is truly wrong never does.

[Ausinus]

There is no universal morality dipshit, or else people would have followed them from the dawn of time, which they havent.

[ajk]

There is no universal morality dipshit, or else people would have followed them from the dawn of time, which they havent.

Just because not everyone has followed them doesn't mean it doesn't still exist.

[Ausinus]

So how do you know they exist then?

[something]

Just because not everyone has followed them doesn't mean it doesn't still exist.

Hey, if abortion, according to your moral, was wrong, would a lot of other things in our society be wrong.

[ajk]

Explain what other things you mean. Do you mean like homosexual marriage and that sort of thing?

[Ausinus]

Say Yes To Same Sex Marriage!

[who897]

And say no to religious fundies.

In the great words of Eddie Murphy (sort of) If abortion is wrong, then I don't wanna be right. :D

[tocrayzay]

i haven't read everything i stopped at stem cell research but the time came to say ajk you have yet to make a valid point as to why it is wrong to have an abortion. note i said valid point so far the only thing you have come up with is opinions not any facts
i am pro choice pro stem cell research
a woman needs to have the right to choose and it needs to be legal not only because of reasons already given but unless we want to go back to the times where women and young girls stuck clothes hangers up themselves to try and have an abortion and possibly kill themselves we need to give that right to women
ajk you have yet to say something about rape victims you want them to keep a child that they could possibly end up hating and torturing and possibly killing because it reminds them of that event or giving it up for adoption it ending up in a horrible home where who knows what happens to it (granted its only speculation but worth considering)
or how about a woman having a child she can't feed and it starving to death in the end. wow thats great, it got the chance to hate life
you talk like abortion is the worst thing ever when i personally think its worse for people to have their eggs fertilized in a test tube and all the excess ones are either frozen or thrown away
i am for using those thrown away eggs for stem cell research but thats just me throwing them away is a waste i hope some illegal lab is doing that

[something]

i haven't read everything i stopped at stem cell research but the time came to say ajk you have yet to make a valid point as to why it is wrong to have an abortion. note i said valid point so far the only thing you have come up with is opinions not any facts
i am pro choice pro stem cell research
a woman needs to have the right to choose and it needs to be legal not only because of reasons already given but unless we want to go back to the times where women and young girls stuck clothes hangers up themselves to try and have an abortion and possibly kill themselves we need to give that right to women
ajk you have yet to say something about rape victims you want them to keep a child that they could possibly end up hating and torturing and possibly killing because it reminds them of that event or giving it up for adoption it ending up in a horrible home where who knows what happens to it (granted its only speculation but worth considering)
or how about a woman having a child she can't feed and it starving to death in the end. wow thats great, it got the chance to hate life
you talk like abortion is the worst thing ever when i personally think its worse for people to have their eggs fertilized in a test tube and all the excess ones are either frozen or thrown away
i am for using those thrown away eggs for stem cell research but thats just me throwing them away is a waste i hope some illegal lab is doing that

I can tell you have right on your points. Welcome to the forum

[hitekredneck]

i haven't read everything i stopped at stem cell research but the time came to say ajk you have yet to make a valid point as to why it is wrong to have an abortion. note i said valid point so far the only thing you have come up with is opinions not any facts
i am pro choice pro stem cell research
a woman needs to have the right to choose and it needs to be legal not only because of reasons already given but unless we want to go back to the times where women and young girls stuck clothes hangers up themselves to try and have an abortion and possibly kill themselves we need to give that right to women
ajk you have yet to say something about rape victims you want them to keep a child that they could possibly end up hating and torturing and possibly killing because it reminds them of that event or giving it up for adoption it ending up in a horrible home where who knows what happens to it (granted its only speculation but worth considering)
or how about a woman having a child she can't feed and it starving to death in the end. wow thats great, it got the chance to hate life
you talk like abortion is the worst thing ever when i personally think its worse for people to have their eggs fertilized in a test tube and all the excess ones are either frozen or thrown away
i am for using those thrown away eggs for stem cell research but thats just me throwing them away is a waste i hope some illegal lab is doing that
welcome to the forums....i'm thinking that this is the best post i've seen on this issue....i'm not a fan of abortion, but the simple fact is that i'm a minority on this issue, and it's here to stay...i don't personally like the idea of possibly killing a future benefit to our society as a whole, but for the most part, i'll go with the majority on this one

[Ape-Shit]

What a Great Thread...! All in favor of individual rights, say "Aye"..!

[tocrayzay]

What a Great Thread...! All in favor of individual rights, say "Aye"..!

AYE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[theicidal maniac]

Aye-Aye.........

[something]

Aye Aye Aye Aye

[ajk]

So your in favor of individual rights, even if that means murdering another person? That's a bit of a double standard isn't it?

[theicidal maniac]

So your in favor of individual rights, even if that means murdering another person? That's a bit of a double standard isn't it?

Well...that's what you keep chanting...but NO, it isn't.

[something]

So your in favor of individual rights, even if that means murdering another person? That's a bit of a double standard isn't it?

We can't be favor individual rights if it means to kill an other person, because the other person is also a person.

[ajk]

That's my point, you are doing just that.

[Ausinus]

That's my point, you are doing just that.

But the foetus is not a person.

[General Septem]

But the foetus is not a person.
The fetus is human, and the right to life is a human right, not a personal right.

And before you give me that whole "born or naturalized" shit, allow me to point out that you'd be in as deep of shit if you killed an illegal wetback as if you killed an American.

[Ausinus]

The fetus is human, and the right to life is a human right, not a personal right.

And before you give me that whole "born or naturalized" shit, allow me to point out that you'd be in as deep of shit if you killed an illegal wetback as if you killed an American.

Its because I am in the jurisdiction of the United States. No duh.

[General Septem]

Its because I am in the jurisdiction of the United States. No duh.

I'm saying everyone has that right to live, and an unborn baby does exist within the borders.

[theicidal maniac]

I'm saying everyone has that right to live, and an unborn baby does exist within the borders.


So just American babies deserve to live then?

Oh...or did he mean that METAPHORICALLY? Beautiful imagery really. The problem is that the borders you have to draw to include an embryo as "HUMAN" will also allow cows and fish in the borders as well, and then it is no more wrong to kill a cow as it is to kill a human embryo.

[Ape-Shit]

So your in favor of individual rights, even if that means murdering another person? That's a bit of a double standard isn't it?

The Aye's have it...! Sorry Little Dude..! It's a double standard only in your mind (or what little bit of a mind you have).

[Ape-Shit]

I have the right to carry a gun.

You have the right to break into my house.

I have the right to kill you. You dumb Fuck...!

[ajk]

The Aye's have it...! Sorry Little Dude..! It's a double standard only in your mind (or what little bit of a mind you have).

How is that not a double standard? By killing somebody you are taking away their own individual rights.

[Ausinus]

How is that not a double standard? By killing somebody you are taking away their own individual rights.

Yeah but the foetus isnt a person, it doesnt have or deserve any rights.

[ajk]

Yes it is, it may be in a different stage of development from us, but it does not change the fact that is human.

[Ausinus]

Yes it is, it may be in a different stage of development from us, but it does not change the fact that is human.

It may be human (although their genetic variances are greater than between primates and born humans), but they arent people.

Dont be giving me evils!

[ajk]

Human and person is one in the same.

[Ausinus]

Human and person is one in the same.

In that case, foeti arent human, because the defining factors of personhood is advanced cognition and communication.

[ajk]

Ok then, what about the fact that the baby is able to recognize voices and sounds while in the womb? Also he or she can communicate to a certain degree through kicking.

[Ausinus]

Ok then, what about the fact that the baby is able to recognize voices and sounds while in the womb? Also he or she can communicate to a certain degree through kicking.

After a certain period of time. Most abortions happen when its in the embryonic stage anyway.

[ajk]

So what? It doesn't matter when it's done, you are still murdering a person, with it's own DNA, it's own characteristics.

[Ausinus]

So what? It doesn't matter when it's done, you are still murdering a person, with it's own DNA, it's own characteristics.

No, you arent murdering a person. DNA has nothing to do with it, or else a clone wouldnt be a person. The defining factors of personhood are advanced cognition and communication.

[ajk]

I beg to differ. The defining factor of a person is having a soul. For without it, the person isn't alive. A dead body lacks the soul to make it living. Right at conception that child has a soul, therefore it is a person.

[Ausinus]

I beg to differ. The defining factor of a person is having a soul. For without it, the person isn't alive. A dead body lacks the soul to make it living. Right at conception that child has a soul, therefore it is a person.

There is no empirical evidence for a soul, so it can be discounted as a defining factor.

[ajk]

Doesn't have to be, it is still a fact. Whether you believe it or not is irrevelant.

[Ausinus]

Doesn't have to be, it is still a fact. Whether you believe it or not is irrevelant.


Facts are proved through empirical evidence. Souls have not been proved through empirical evidence. Therefore, the existence of the soul is not a fact. Quod Erat Demonstrandum.

[ajk]

Yes it is still a fact. There doesn't have to be "evidence" to prove everything in the world. Just because there's no evidence of something happening or something existing, doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it didn't exist.

[Ausinus]

Yes it is still a fact. There doesn't have to be "evidence" to prove everything in the world. Just because there's no evidence of something happening or something existing, doesn't mean it didn't happen or that it didn't exist.

In that case the proper word would be "speculation", not "fact". The beauty of physical science is that it does not base its theories upon speculation, but by empricial observations of phenomena.

Lack of evidence isnt proof of nonexistence, you are right in that respect. However, that is not to say we should outlaw abortion, because at this point in time, it remains speculative. If someone provides proof beyond reasonable doubt that the soul is real, and it exists from conception, and that it did define personhood, then it could be used as an argument against abortion.

Proof and evidence are one and the same. In order to prove something, you need to provide proof, which is evidence.

[ajk]

Lack of evidence isnt proof of nonexistence, you are right in that respect. However, that is not to say we should outlaw abortion, because at this point in time, it remains speculative. If someone provides proof beyond reasonable doubt that the soul is real, and it exists from conception, and that it did define personhood, then it could be used as an argument against abortion.


Ok what about this then. When a person dies, what happens to the body? It no longer can function. Now why is that? Because the soul of said person has left the body. Without a soul to inhabit it, the body as we know it ceases to exist.

[Ausinus]

Ok what about this then. When a person dies, what happens to the body? It no longer can function. Now why is that? Because the soul has left the body. Without a soul to inhabit it, the body as we know it ceases to exist.

Have you ever taken a biology course? Honestly.

The reason that the body stops functioning is because of a cessation of respiration. Without oxygen, the brain ceases its function.

New evidence has shown that there is actually a limit to cell division, which explains why there is bodily deterioration during old age. This is because of a thing called the Telomere, which acts as the terminal end to a chromosome. Every time a cell divides, the Telomere shrinks, and is less and less effective at preventing the loss of vital genetic sequences, thus preventing effective cell division.

[ajk]

Have you ever taken a biology course? Honestly.
The reason that the body stops functioning is because of a cessation of respiration. Without oxygen, the brain ceases its function.


I understand that, but still a person can survive as long as the soul does not leave the body. If a person is unconscious, he or she is not neccessarily dead. They can still be brought back to life. Only once that soul leaves the body does a person officially pass away from this life.

[Ausinus]

I understand that, but still a person can survive as long as the soul does not leave the body. If a person is unconscious, he or she is not neccessarily dead. They can still be brought back to life. Only once that soul leaves the body does a person officially pass away from this life.

It is evident you dont understand. Let me explain. You can revive someone from unconsciousness because their body still has the ability to support itself, whereas a person dying of old age dies because their body is incapable of supporting itself. See the difference?

[theicidal maniac]

I beg to differ. The defining factor of a person is having a soul. For without it, the person isn't alive. A dead body lacks the soul to make it living. Right at conception that child has a soul, therefore it is a person.

That's an interesting statement, considering that there is no evidence of a soul...so what why would we define ourselves by something we can't sense?

[tocrayzay]

ok here's my idea of that one
as said before when the body stops working we die
and if you believe in the soul it just means when the body gives up its time to move on to wherever you believe it goes!!!!!

[Ape-Shit]

I just won't to know...., What kind of Medication AJK is on....?

[something]

I just won't to know...., What kind of Medication AJK is on....?

Probably a little bit of everything. But he probably doesn't need anyone of them

[General Septem]

I feel like a parrot here. The right to life is a human right, not a personal right.

[something]

I feel like a parrot here. The right to life is a human right, not a personal right.

And the difference is...?

[General Septem]

And the difference is...?

The difference being that it doesn't really matter if a fetus is a person or not, because as a human being we have no right to kill him/her.

What does it say for us as an intelligent species when we kill our own members? Our own offspring for that matter?

[something]

Allright, I'll ask you a question; If the entire mankind were in big trouble, and the only way out of it, was killing one specific guy, would it be wrong killing him then? And this is just a question, it doesn't directly have anything to do with the post above.

[General Septem]

Allright, I'll ask you a question; If the entire mankind were in big trouble, and the only way out of it, was killing one specific guy, would it be wrong killing him then? And this is just a question, it doesn't directly have anything to do with the post above.

If he was the one willfully putting mankind in that kind of trouble, then yes. Other than that, I don't see how one guy's existence alone can cause global destruction.

[something]

Okay, lets say that it's several guys, and they are all innocent, and they are the ones that the invading alien fleet think we should kill, and they don't want to die themselves, but if they don't, the aliens will kill all of us. So, do you understand now?

[who897]

Okay, lets say that it's several guys, and they are all innocent, and they are the ones that the invading alien fleet think we should kill, and they don't want to die themselves, but if they don't, the aliens will kill all of us. So, do you understand now?

Ummm, come on now. Hypothetical questions are rather quite plausible. What you wrote is rather far fetched and doesn't have any pertinent to the topic at hand.

[General Septem]

Okay, lets say that it's several guys, and they are all innocent, and they are the ones that the invading alien fleet think we should kill, and they don't want to die themselves, but if they don't, the aliens will kill all of us. So, do you understand now?

We're fucking America. Nuke the son-of-a-bitch aliens. :D

[who897]

We're fucking America. Nuke the son-of-a-bitch aliens. :D

If i was going to fuck a country...it wouldn't be the USA, it's too big. I'd do the Vatican, it being the smallest therefore the tightest country to have sex with.

[something]

There's a lot of ways to avoding answer on my question here...