Austrailia's lookin better all the time

[hitekredneck]

dunno how true this is, but if it is, and if they ever use common sense for firearms, i may just move...


Prime Minister Kevin Rudd - Australia

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks..


Separately, Rudd angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques. Quote:

'IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT.. Take It Or Leave It.
I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians. '

'This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom'

'We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society . Learn the language!'

'Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture.'

'We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.'

'This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'.'

'If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.'

[freakazoid]

dunno how true this is, but if it is, and if they ever use common sense for firearms, i may just move...

It's time that muslims received that kind of greeting in every country they invade. Right on!

[hitekredneck]

It's time that muslims received that kind of greeting in every country they invade. Right on!

not just the muslims, freak....when joining a country, one should respect the laws, language, and customs of that country regardless of their personal feelings towrds it...this goes for mexicans, asians, anybody who moves here to take advantage of the freedoms our great country currently provides

[beelzebub]

not just the muslims, freak....when joining a country, one should respect the laws, language, and customs of that country regardless of their personal feelings towrds it...this goes for mexicans, asians, anybody who moves here to take advantage of the freedoms our great country currently provides

So what about American citizens? What if we dont like things the way they are run in this country?

[MrJim]

So what about American citizens? What if we dont like things the way they are run in this country?

Leave.

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, since the only thing that sucks about Australia is that EVERYTHING is fatally poisonous.

[Limbo]

the only thing that sucks about Australia is that EVERYTHING is fatally poisonous.

My Grandmother's family immigrated to Australia in the early 1900's from Europe. Her dad, my great grandfather, was a carpenter, and she said he was kept busy building coffins because of all the people dying from tropical diseases and bites from insects, poisonous snakes and other deadly vermin.

They ended up leaving and coming to Canada. Ironic I live in Arizona now where there are plenty of poisonous critters just like Australia. At least most of the things here won't kill you, but you do have to avoid the rattlers because even if they don't kill you, they will mess you up pretty good... same with the brown recluse and the black widow.

[AceTracer]

Leave.

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, since the only thing that sucks about Australia is that EVERYTHING is fatally poisonous.
And the rampant racism towards aborigines and other non-whites (you think racism is bad here?), and the censorship laws, and (for many of you) the socialized medicine.

[aldenthomas]

Yes of course Austrailia's lookin better all the time

[MrJim]

And the rampant racism towards aborigines and other non-whites (you think racism is bad here?)

Racism doesn't bother me, not at all. I've known just as many racist black people, mexicans, etc. as I have white people.

I think everyone needs to spend a few years in an inner-city school to see what TRUE acts of hate and racism are like.

[AceTracer]

Racism doesn't bother me, not at all. I've known just as many racist black people, mexicans, etc. as I have white people.
And that makes it right?


I think everyone needs to spend a few years in an inner-city school to see what TRUE acts of hate and racism are like.
Care to elaborate on that? I grew up in Miami and attended inner city schools, yet I'm not sure what you're talking about.

[MrJim]

Well the short version is if you're a white boy, you'd better round up your friends and be prepared to fight every day.

[AceTracer]

Well the short version is if you're a white boy, you'd better round up your friends and be prepared to fight every day.
Ok, I'm still a little confused as to the point you're trying to make. Are you saying that racism is OK, because it exists in all races?

[LedZap]

Ok, I'm still a little confused as to the point you're trying to make. Are you saying that racism is OK, because it exists in all races?

I think that he's trying to point out to you that your narrow view of racism probably doesn't include the racism white people face everyday.

[AceTracer]

I think that he's trying to point out to you that your narrow view of racism probably doesn't include the racism white people face everyday.
I fail to see how my mentioning of racism towards aborigines and other minorities in Australia somehow means I'm ignorant as to the plight of whites that struggle with racism, or how it justifies said racism.

Australia's a pretty diverse country; 1 in 5 Australians are foreign born. Half of all Western Australians will be foreign born by 2020 (Source (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/mp/7016618/half-foreign-born-by-2020/)). With that kind of intense immigration comes intense feelings towards it. You see the same thing in Europe. I spent three months traveling through 20 countries in Europe last year and I never saw racism and xenophobia like I did in some places in Europe (Spain especially). The racism in the US pales in comparison. That was my original point.

It seems the argument MrJim was making is, "Yeah well, minorities are racists too!". And I'm not sure how that somehow justifies racism by anyone. Is it somehow OK that racism exists against minorities, because it also exists against majorities?

[MrJim]

Ace, everyone has just as much right to be racist as they have to believe in astrology or complain about the price of popcorn at a movie theater. It is only when hate crimes (deadly ones) are committed that it becomes an issue. Prejudice exists in pretty much everyone for no logical reason at all - for example, a white person may preach equality UNTIL they are robbed or hurt by a black person whose appearance fits a stereotypical depiction. Conversely, a black person may preach equality until 'the man'' commits what they consider a discriminatory act.

I am interested in what your inner-city school life was like. Was it off the downtown expressway near the homeless shelter, middle of ghettoville? That's what comes to mind when using the term 'inner-city' school, and I've been to two of them. They were absolutely horrible and I couldn't wait to be done with them.

[MrRee]

Ace, If you don't believe minoratys are racist too, try walking down the street at the 5 points in Denver Colorado!
I was raised in a small town where all the people were white. Never saw any racism there.
Then in the service, I got sent to an outfit where all but 5 of us were black. It damn well taught me fast!
All 5 of us white guys were NCO's and so the black company comander held a formation to anounce that "the ONLY rank in his company was HIS"

I sent a letter to the comander at battion headquarters, nameing names, and quoting witnesses (one of which was a warrent Officer)
A day later I was escorted out of there by 2 MPs, while the battaion comander and MANY other MPs remained !
I never learned what happened then, but did get a thankyou and a very nice assignment after that .

[AceTracer]

At what point did I say minorities can't be racist?

[beelzebub]

Leave.
Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, since the only thing that sucks about Australia is that EVERYTHING is fatally poisonous.

I see, so the right to freedom of speech and assembly goes right out the window. We should obey the laws of the "higher authority", not advocate for change and either leave this country or just comply... right? Are you are saying the founding father's had it wrong?

[MrJim]

At what point did I say minorities can't be racist?

You sure love playing on words, don't you?

[MrJim]

I see, so the right to freedom of speech and assembly goes right out the window. We should obey the laws of the "higher authority", not advocate for change and either leave this country or just comply... right? Are you are saying the founding father's had it wrong?

I'm saying that a country is really just a piece of rock, and if another piece of rock is more appealing to a person, then by all means, they should pursue it.

Like a frog on a sinking lily pad.

[Carrot]

I'm saying that a country is really just a piece of rock, and if another piece of rock is more appealing to a person, then by all means, they should pursue it.

Like a frog on a sinking lily pad.

My sentiments exactly.

Afterall, how do you think countires like america and australia came about in the first place?

[MrJim]

My sentiments exactly.

Afterall, how do you think countires like america and australia came about in the first place?

Europeans killed Indians and stole their land. Australia I'm not sure of.

BTW, hitek, I used to mistakenly spell it "Austrailia" myself, incidentally.

[Carrot]

Well, I was thinking of the more patriotic version, where some oddies wanted more religious freedom and whatnot, so left england.

And while australia did originally consist of large amounts of penal camps, the amount of immigration since very early on accounts for the majority of the population.

[AceTracer]

You sure love playing on words, don't you?
Not as much as the rest of you enjoy straw men.

[AceTracer]

Europeans killed Indians and stole their land. Australia I'm not sure of.
No different; white settlers killed 90% of the indigenous people. (Source (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indigenous_Australians#Since_British_colonisation) )

Up to the 1970s, the children of aborigines were separated from their parents by the government. They're called the Stolen Generation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolen_Generation).

[MrJim]

Not as much as the rest of you enjoy straw men.

Stating an opinion is not a straw man unless it diverts from the subject...

[AceTracer]

Stating an opinion is not a straw man unless it diverts from the subject...
Then why do we keep going back to how minorities are also racist?

[MrJim]

I answered the question:

"So what about American citizens? What if we dont like things the way they are run in this country?"

with "Leave. Not that it's necessarily a bad thing, since the only thing that sucks about Australia is that EVERYTHING is fatally poisonous."

Which you responded with:

"And the rampant racism towards aborigines and other non-whites (you think racism is bad here?), and the censorship laws, and (for many of you) the socialized medicine."

Then I responded:

"Racism doesn't bother me, not at all. I've known just as many racist black people, mexicans, etc. as I have white people."

To which you retorted: "And that makes it right?"

That's why the topic came up. I responded to questions honestly and without hesitation, and somehow that counts as a straw man - even though I was not even arguing with you.

[AceTracer]

And then we moved on after I completely ignored your mind boggling argument that racism is OK as long as it doesn't lead to violence (wow). And yet someone brought it up again, somehow asserting that I said minorities aren't racist. When I asked where I said that, you commented that I love playing with words. I'm not even sure what that means or what you were referring to.

We're talking about racism in Australia, not whether minorities can be racist or not (of course they can).

[MrJim]

And then we moved on after I completely ignored your mind boggling argument that racism is OK as long as it doesn't lead to violence (wow).

Okay, what's so mind boggling about it? Without violence, who is hurt by racism? If you are ashamed of who you are because someone points out that you are different, then you are just a crybaby, simple as that. If someone just plain doesn't like black people, white people, asians, mexicans, arabs, and so on, it doesn't do one iota of harm unless they act out in ways that actually hurt a person of another race.


you commented that I love playing with words. I'm not even sure what that means or what you were referring to.

Underlying assumptions. Not every assumption has to be based on explicit wording but rather a collection of arguments that speaks volumes on what you are thinking and implying.


We're talking about racism in Australia, not whether minorities can be racist or not (of course they can).

Fine. Then the only thing that sucks about Australia is that everything is poisonous.

[beelzebub]

I'm saying that a country is really just a piece of rock, and if another piece of rock is more appealing to a person, then by all means, they should pursue it.
Like a frog on a sinking lily pad.

Well I dont think that you/religon/society or anyone else has the right to dominate a people that dont wish it. We protest to change the way things are and that is more American that jumping to the next lilly pad.

[AceTracer]

Well, I was thinking of the more patriotic version
What's more patriotic than genocide?

[MrJim]

Well I dont think that you/religon/society or anyone else has the right to dominate a people that dont wish it. We protest to change the way things are and that is more American that jumping to the next lilly pad.

It is unfortunate that society's wishes are both ambiguous and partisan.

I stand by my previous statement: like it or leave it. I dislike many things about this country, yet haven't found a viable alternative, so here I remain.

[AceTracer]

I dislike many things about this country, yet haven't found a viable alternative, so here I remain.
And you probably never will. The only nations more conservative than the US are Islamic theocracies. Ironic, eh?

Which is why I'm always amused when I see conservatives threaten to leave the country. I'd like to see where they'd go.

[Carrot]

What's more patriotic than genocide?

Glossing over it.

[MrJim]

I'm always amused when I see conservatives threaten to leave the country. I'd like to see where they'd go.

Depends on how bad things get. They just aren't there yet.

[beelzebub]

It is unfortunate that society's wishes are both ambiguous and partisan.

I stand by my previous statement: like it or leave it. I dislike many things about this country, yet haven't found a viable alternative, so here I remain.Literally: Your stance is contrary to decades of people standing up for what they believe in (e.g. anti-trust, civil war, women’s rights, civil rights and gay rights movements to name a few). These movements are celebrated as foundations in American political adaptability and social strength. Your statement: "love it or leave it" is an affront to the very ideals of what is to be American. I was born here and I don't have to like our policies and I can fight against them while being a great American citizen. You insisting that we adapt (aka love it) or leave is just about as American as communism.

Now, I understand how you may feel when people decry all the negative aspects of "American" and never celebrate the benefit as that is an offensive thing itself. However, to generalize all political and social unrest with "love it or leave it" is not going to keep our country together. In fact, it will cause further divisions and disenchantment with those that our system oppresses.

[AceTracer]

Depends on how bad things get. They just aren't there yet.
How bad would things have to get? And where would you go?

[MrJim]

How bad would things have to get? And where would you go?

There are too many variables to provide a quick and easy response, Ace. We could become a third world country while another country thrives OR we could reach prosperity in a year or two while another (currently attractive) country begins to crumble. There are just too many possibilities.

[MrJim]

Literally: Your stance is contrary to decades of people standing up for what they believe in (e.g. anti-trust, civil war, women’s rights, civil rights and gay rights movements to name a few). These movements are celebrated as foundations in American political adaptability and social strength. Your statement: "love it or leave it" is an affront to the very ideals of what is to be American. I was born here and I don't have to like our policies and I can fight against them while being a great American citizen. You insisting that we adapt (aka love it) or leave is just about as American as communism.

Now, I understand how you may feel when people decry all the negative aspects of "American" and never celebrate the benefit as that is an offensive thing itself. However, to generalize all political and social unrest with "love it or leave it" is not going to keep our country together. In fact, it will cause further divisions and disenchantment with those that our system oppresses.

Influencing change may be considered patriotic but often futile - things have changed a lot since the late 1700s. At the same time a hundred people are standing up (protesters), another hundred people are rising against them (lobbyists). Someone has to win and someone has to lose, and generally the winner is the one with the most money. Perhaps others have more patience than I do - and a more internal locus of control. As I said, I don't have any intention of jumping ship at this time, but it is because of a lack of viable alternatives rather than general happiness.