Isræl

[Phoenix]

Then again, the formation of Israel was a crime against humanity, why should the nation be any different?
I figured if I just threw a statement like that out there, somebody would get the wrong impression and inform me of how racist I am.

The movement to create an Isræli state in Palestine - Zionism - is a crime against humanity because it is racist - it favours the Jews over the Palestinians, and indeed, it did succeed in expelling millions of Palestinians to refugee camps.

I know, it's such a small part of Palestine that was given to Isræl, but what if soldiers showed up at your house one day and told you to get the hell out because the area of your state has become the home of the Jews? I don't think you'd be too happy. Maybe I'm wrong about you, but I'd be fucking pissed, no matter who the hell was moving in.

Now don't get me wrong, I have nothing against the Jews, I don't think that all Jews are somehow inferior or other such bullshit. Jews are normal people, just as you and I, but that doesn't mean they deserve to throw out a bunch of Arabs just because it was their ancient homeland. I think Jews deserve their own place to stay, given the course of history, but not at the cost of casting millions into exile.

Simply put, I am an anti-Zionist, not an anti-Semite.

This is my first and only statement I will give on this. Listen to my words or don't; the bullshit is on you.

[Rec]

Parallells what Hitler did to the Jews, Christians, Homosexuals etc, exactly, only he gassed them to death to clear out the pure Germany!!! hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

[Patt]

http://www.zionism-israel.com/dic/Ancient_Judah.gif

I do believe it was theirs in the first place there Phoenix.

[Rec]

Sure it was until the first Muslims conquest attempted to conquer the world.

[LedZap]

Phoenix wants to gas all the jews now.

[Patt]

I'm not at all surprised.

[Carrot]

So none of you are prepared to acknowledge that forming israel was a pretty stupid, inflammatory, and fairly unjust thing to do.

As for "it being theirs first" how far back are you willing to go with every other nation on earth.

[MrRee]

Think I will fart &gas him first Led :)

[Phoenix]

So none of you are prepared to acknowledge that forming israel was a pretty stupid, inflammatory, and fairly unjust thing to do.

As for "it being theirs first" how far back are you willing to go with every other nation on earth.
Thank you. At least someone on this board has half a brain.

[Rec]

Damn, telling someone how to think and then approval when it syncs with yours!!!! hypocrite LOL

[Patt]

Just don't try and tell me they have NO RIGHT to that land. They do. I don't buy the argument that it isn't/wasn't their land. I never have and I don't think I ever will.

[Carrot]

I think approval of a viewpoint which coincides with your own is something we can all relate to.

Especially, since, as unlikely as it sounds, my own position wasn't particularly influenced by his first post.

[Rec]

Sure enough, and I think that it stinks that the freaking British had to approve giving something back that was always theirs and should stay that way. There is plenty of room for both nations to co-exist and contrary to popular media myth both sides pretty much think this....It is the radical extremists that are the problem period.

[Carrot]

Just don't try and tell me they have NO RIGHT to that land. They do. I don't buy the argument that it isn't/wasn't their land. I never have and I don't think I ever will.

How much of a right is needed to justify the steps taken?

Why do you think it is their land? I mean, at best, the land wasn't "theirs" since 1516....and then israel was formed under 100 years ago, against the wishes of all the countries in the region, and that mass immigration was needed in order for it to have a population to support a newly forced nation. ...

Edit:

Always theirs????

[Patt]

How much of a right is needed to justify the steps taken?

Why do you think it is their land? I mean, at best, the land wasn't "theirs" since 1516....and then israel was formed under 100 years ago, against the wishes of all the countries in the region, and that mass immigration was needed in order for it to have a population to support a newly forced nation. ...

Edit:

Always theirs????

Yes - from before the calendar actually --- both versions --- The oldest part of the city, the City of David (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_David), was settled in the 4th millennium BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_millennium_BCE), making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_time_of_continuous_habitation). Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) and has been the spiritual center of the Jewish people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) since c. 1000 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_BCE), when David (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David) the King of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_%28united_monarchy%29) (Psalms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms) 122), and his son Solomon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon) commissioned the building of the First Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem) in the city.

Consequently, the date of 1516 doesn't hold up.

[Carrot]

Why not? The 1516 is the most generouse darte for any sort of jewish tendencies/rule from wiki.

I didn't realise somewhere being the spiritual centre meant you could claim it as being your land when you havn't ruled there, or had a population majority (or even close) for over 400 years, while simultaneuoslt forcing people of there land they are currently living on, and going against all neighbouring countries wishes.

[Prometheus]

Just don't try and tell me they have NO RIGHT to that land. They do. I don't buy the argument that it isn't/wasn't their land. I never have and I don't think I ever will.

And such would be expected of you.

[Patt]

Why not? The 1516 is the most generouse darte for any sort of jewish tendencies/rule from wiki.

I didn't realise somewhere being the spiritual centre meant you could claim it as being your land when you havn't ruled there, or had a population majority (or even close) for over 400 years, while simultaneuoslt forcing people of there land they are currently living on, and going against all neighbouring countries wishes.

NOT so, since Wiki - if you use the city name itself, is where the info came from that I posted. Additionally, look at the NAME of the site per King David --- the UNITED KINGDOM OF ISRAEL.

As to the 'Spiritual Center' --- think about that term as it relates to the people of those times --- their entire lives revolved around religion. They'd hardly be very far from their 'center'. They'd be there every day, evening and twice, maybe three times on the Sabbath. They can't do that from afar, can they?

And, if you truly think about what you assert - the Bible was written long before the dates you mention. There is no better reference to that time than the history and the documents that surround Christianity and the Jewish Religion. You honestly think that they can't back up the Jewish state, the Jewish faith, it's birth, it's continued existence without historical documentation? That would be like challenging the Roman Catholic Archives, don't you think?

[Patt]

And such would be expected of you.

And well it should be --- it's logical as well as rational to believe as I do.

[Carrot]

I'm not denying where and when and by whom the faith was birthed, or whether it is the spiritual centre.(to which islam lays the same claim, IIRC)s

But when it han't been ruled or populated by a majority of jews for over 400 years...then there is little to justify forcing the formation of a seperate state, especially when the population forming the state all immigrate to the region due to a conflict (ww2) not connected to the region in any way...

[Rec]

I'm not denying where and when and by whom the faith was birthed, or whether it is the spiritual centre.(to which islam lays the same claim, IIRC)s

But when it han't been ruled or populated by a majority of jews for over 400 years...then there is little to justify forcing the formation of a seperate state, especially when the population forming the state all immigrate to the region due to a conflict (ww2) not connected to the region in any way...


The Jews have always lived in that area, being dispersed under other nations, that feared their massive immigration anywhere prevented them from doing it, until the nations approved of a plan to implement the striving of the national Jew for his homeland.

[Carrot]

The Jews have always lived in that area, being dispersed under other nations, that feared their massive immigration anywhere prevented them from doing it, until the nations approved of a plan to implement the striving of the national Jew for his homeland.

1. Is it neccesary to have a nation for a particular religion?
2. It was "approved" by none of the nations close to, or indeed the one that was losing the land.
3. They have hardly "always lived in that area".....

[Rec]

The Jewish people are a race. Oh yes they have, even during the Muslim conquest and afterwards in the Muslim controlled state,they lived with them, until they would not convert and then they were killed or put out.


Oh and the Arabs claims are based on religion also>

[Phoenix]

The Jewish people are a race.
Okay, that pretty much proves it.

Here, educate yourself.
http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/jewsnotrace.htm

[Carrot]

Yea, and the fact that they were forced of their land.....

I've laid out most reasons why the formation of israel was an unjustified and pretty piss poor idea.
And I continue to point out that very few jews have actually lived there for the past 400 years.

[Patt]

I'm not denying where and when and by whom the faith was birthed, or whether it is the spiritual centre.(to which islam lays the same claim, IIRC)s

But when it han't been ruled or populated by a majority of jews for over 400 years...then there is little to justify forcing the formation of a seperate state, especially when the population forming the state all immigrate to the region due to a conflict (ww2) not connected to the region in any way...

How can you call the Islamic Religion 'The Nation of Islam' and not accept that the Jewish Religion is, as David coined, The United Kingdom of Israel?

Is that not a disconnection in logic in and of itself?

And, aren't you forgetting all of the 'purges' via the Egyptians, the Romans, the Muslims, and the finally the Germans as to why they've been both on and off that land?

[Rec]

Okay, that pretty much proves it.

Here, educate yourself.
http://www.raceandhistory.com/historicalviews/jewsnotrace.htm


No need my daughter in law is Jewish therefore I can get it first hand.....if anything they have kept their records for millinieums......

[Carrot]

How can you call the Islamic Religion 'The Nation of Islam' and not accept that the Jewish Religion is, as David coined, The United Kingdom of Israel?

Is that not a disconnection in logic in and of itself?

And, aren't you forgetting all of the 'purges' via the Egyptians, the Romans, the Muslims, and the finally the Germans as to why they've been both on and off that land?

Where did I call the islamic religion "the nation of islam"?

And I wasn't aware that ancient history was needed for a nation to be formed. Surely then the native americans should be given all their land back....

[Patt]

Where did I call the islamic religion "the nation of islam"?

And I wasn't aware that ancient history was needed for a nation to be formed. Surely then the native americans should be given all their land back....

Being a Native American myself, I can hardly disagree. However, I do realize that history progresses and things change. However, it cannot be said that the Jewish people willingly, fully, or completely abandoned the Jewish State in and of what was then and is now Israel.

[Carrot]

Well, they abandoned it enough and long enough that it had to be forcefully formed by other nations (and voted against) by many nations, and that in forming it many people who actually lived there had to be relocated and that jews immigrated back into the region to form it, rather than dividing it amongst people who were already there.

[Rec]

Being a Native American myself, I can hardly disagree. However, I do realize that history progresses and things change. However, it cannot be said that the Jewish people willingly, fully, or completely abandoned the Jewish State in and of what was then and is now Israel.

Absolutely Patt,and as my husband is almost full bloodied native american, but still lives here, so they did not kill or run all of them away. The Jewish people were not willing, fully to be dispersed etc.

[Phoenix]

No need my daughter in law is Jewish therefore I can get it first hand.....if anything they have kept their records for millinieums......
That's irrelevant. The word Jew, by definition, refers to a person who follows the religion Judaism.

The term you are trying to use is Hebrew, which is a race.


Of course, if you want to keep on denying the facts, go ahead, that's your problem, not mine.

[Rec]

That's irrelevant. The word Jew, by definition, refers to a person who follows the religion Judaism.

The term you are trying to use is Hebrew, which is a race.


Of course, if you want to keep on denying the facts, go ahead, that's your problem, not mine.


The Jews are Hebrews you nit wit!!! They always have been Hebrews with the bastardize name of Jews....you learn something junior!!!

Do you have a extensive background in History??? Or in comparative religions,,,,,,,,no perhaps not, that is not a part of communism, you just follow the leader, right!

[Phoenix]

The Jews are Hebrews you nit wit!!!
Not all Hebrews are Jews, not all Jews are Hebrews, you nitwit!!!

They always have been Hebrews with the bastardize name of Jews....you learn something junior!!!
There have always been Jews who aren't Hebrews.


Do you have a extensive background in History??? Or in comparative religions
Does it take one to pick up a dictionary? Besides, that article I sent you was written by a Jew, so now we're even.

,,,,,,,,no perhaps not, that is not a part of communism, you just follow the leader, right!
Goddamn, you just love that word. Does the word Communism give you an orgasm or something? Or maybe it's you calling me a Communist that makes you cum.

Either way, ad Hominem will get you nowhere. Though, if you're in the mood to throw ad Hominem around, you don't understand the difference between a comma and a period, nor do you understand the proper use of an ellipse.

But anyway, since you want to dispute the facts:
http://judaism.about.com/od/judaismbasics/a/beingjewish.htm
http://www.sullivan-county.com/identity/j4j_not.htm
http://www.jewfaq.org/judaism.htm
http://www.beingjewish.com/identity/race.html
http://www.zionism-israel.com/foldvary_zionism_race.htm
http://www.msfinancialsavvy.com/article.php?aId=197
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/christjew.html
You're wrong. This is not debatable.

[LedZap]

Goddamn, you just love that word. Does the word Communism give you an orgasm or something? Or maybe it's you calling me a Communist that makes you cum.

Either way, ad Hominem will get you nowhere.

Knock it off with the sexual slurs Phoenix

[Rec]

It was a logical question, you tout your belief system in your sig and constantly on the board. Are you unable to back your belief system or what?? I despise Communism and the bloody footprint it has left on historys pages,,,,and I disdain the in your face of it constantly. It is your right to believe as you wish, but that does not disqualify you from being questioned on it or about it.


It seems to get your back up really fast and if being a communist allows for your filthy talk then I despise it even more, it makes you look the uneducated fool that has language problems. And shows that you are not well read or cannot retain the words you read from real history. Your comments are shallow and common and hard to take seriously, that is on you, no one else.

[Phoenix]

Knock it off with the sexual slurs Phoenix
Sexual in what sense? In the literal sense, sure, in the sense that I think you're implying (sexist), I did no such thing.

[Rec]

I am offended by it, so is my husband who just read it, and I have documented it.....remember that none of us know or are sure who we mix with here on the net....perhaps we all should remind ourselves often>

By the none of us, I will call an exception to that rule, for it exist!

[Rise Up]

Yes - from before the calendar actually --- both versions --- The oldest part of the city, the City of David (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_of_David), was settled in the 4th millennium BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4th_millennium_BCE), making Jerusalem one of the oldest cities in the world (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_cities_by_time_of_continuous_habitation). Jerusalem is the holiest city in Judaism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judaism) and has been the spiritual center of the Jewish people (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jews) since c. 1000 BCE (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1000_BCE), when David (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David) the King of Israel first established it as the capital of the united Kingdom of Israel (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Israel_%28united_monarchy%29) (Psalms (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psalms) 122), and his son Solomon (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solomon) commissioned the building of the First Temple (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_in_Jerusalem) in the city.

Consequently, the date of 1516 doesn't hold up.

Jerusalem is also one of the holy cities of Islam and of Christianity. Just figured I'd toss that one out there.

[Patt]

Jerusalem is also one of the holy cities of Islam and of Christianity. Just figured I'd toss that one out there.

Well, with Islam being birthed in the year 610 ---

I'd say the Christians had dibs on Jerusalem first by say, off the top of my head, 610 years or so.

And the Jews --- ohhhhhhhh, much longer than that.

[Phoenix]

My opinion on Jerusalem is that if we could find a good way to move everyone out of it, I say nuke the motherfucker. Either that or take it under international control so that those three desert cancers can quit bitching about it.

Yeah, desert cancers. I have a problem with the religions, not the people. If you don't want to read this statement, that's your problem.

[Patt]

My opinion on Jerusalem is that if we could find a good way to move everyone out of it, I say nuke the motherfucker. Either that or take it under international control so that those three desert cancers can quit bitching about it.

Yeah, desert cancers. I have a problem with the religions, not the people. If you don't want to read this statement, that's your problem.

LMAO - you sound like you want armageddon , don't you?
Far be it from me to point out that if that were to happen, then in fact, the Bible would have been correct all along.

That should put a big ole hairy, gaping hole in your theory regarding religion. http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/patteurope/LG%20Smileys/LOL.gif

[Phoenix]

LMAO - you sound like you want armageddon , don't you?
Far be it from me to point out that if that were to happen, then in fact, the Bible would have been correct all along.

That should put a big ole hairy, gaping hole in your theory regarding religion. http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/patteurope/LG%20Smileys/LOL.gif
Self-fulfilling Prophesy.

If you have a prophesy which can be fulfilled by human agents, it may influence said human agents to fulfil said prophesy. This is no divine revelation.

[MrRee]

LMAO - you sound like you want armageddon , don't you?
Far be it from me to point out that if that were to happen, then in fact, the Bible would have been correct all along.

That should put a big ole hairy, gaping hole in your theory regarding religion. http://i852.photobucket.com/albums/ab89/patteurope/LG%20Smileys/LOL.gif

That would mach the big ole hairy hole in his head and his posts :)

[LedZap]

Self-fulfilling Prophesy.

Kinda interesting , if you think about it.

[Patt]

Yep - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back then they thought some quasi-commie, agnostic slash atheist kid would come up with a plan that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that a prophet who said the world would end in throes of pain, pestilence and destruction was right all along.

Yep, I just know that was what was in the back of John's noodle. Tee Hee. He was such a rogue. :D

[Phoenix]

Yep - waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back then they thought some quasi-commie, agnostic slash atheist kid would come up with a plan that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that a prophet who said the world would end in throes of pain, pestilence and destruction was right all along.
Self-Fulfilling Prophesy.


that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that a prophet who said the world would end in throes of pain, pestilence and destruction was right all along.
Now as for that, that's not even self-fulfilling prophecy. That's just captain obvious. Vague shit that a 3 year old could have figured out. I mean seriously, would you think the world would have ended in pleasure, abundance, and construction? Maybe a few bunnies in there too?

And as for those descriptions, that's so fucking vague.

And besides, Nostradamus predicted some of the same things. Are you going to uphold him a some infallible prophet?

Point being that the world ending in destruction doesn't prove one particular prophet as infallible, it just proves that the world ended in destruction.

[Carrot]

Nice to see you aren't spouting your usual blather phoenix.

[Patt]

Self-Fulfilling Prophesy.

Ahhh - to quote: "a prophecy declared as truth when it is actually false may sufficiently influence people, either through fear or logical confusion, so that their reactions ultimately fulfill the once-false prophecy."

"The radical organizer does not have a fixed truth – truth to him is relative and changing; everything to him is relative and changing."


How about you find a way to contrast those two quotes from your given perspective. Now THAT I would find to be interesting....

Nostradamus ? --- not so much.

[Carrot]

No need to get pedantic about the phrase "self-fullfilling prophesy". We all know what it means.

[Patt]

No need to get pedantic about the phrase "self-fullfilling prophesy". We all know what it means.

I simply wanted to state what I was speaking of so that there wasn't any willful ignorance floating about. Sorry if it upset you.

[MrRee]

Nostradamus predictions were so damn vage, they could be interpeted as anything by anybody.

[Phoenix]

Nostradamus predictions were so damn vage, they could be interpeted as anything by anybody.

Most prophesy is.

But just out of curiosity, can some one give me a doomsday prophesy from the bible that isn't vague?

[Limbo]

Most prophesy is.

But just out of curiosity, can some one give me a doomsday prophesy from the bible that isn't vague?

Well actually yeah. There is some that is very well know in regards to the antiChrist and the mark of the beast.

There will be a one world government ruled by the antiChrist. Everyone will be required to have some kind of tattoo (mark of the beast) that will be used to uniquely identify them. Nobody will be able to buy or sell anything without it. The antiChrist will be identified unequivocally by the number 666.

That seems pretty clear. So if you ever find yourself living in a time where there is a government that governs the entire world run by someone who is fiercely anti-Christian and where you are forced to have some kind identifying feature (microchip or whatever) that uniquely identifies you either in your arm or forehead, then that would be predicted by the writer of the book of revelation. Actually doesn't seem far fetched at all based on modern technology and politics.

[Phoenix]

It's still a self-fulfilling prophesy, but it is pretty specific. It's also, unfortunately, a fear that isn't too far off, I admit.

[Agent Provocateur]

I do believe it was theirs in the first place there Phoenix.

But do Jews have a right to the land now??...
Fact is that the same bible from which Jews claim their right to the land is the same bible which also teaches that in it's present form they do not have rights to the land...

For the record...I am not a zionist....

[Rec]

Neither are you a Biblical scholar either! References? Would that be correct as in the info on the Notties thread post #5268?

[Phoenix]

Notties thread post #5268?
Damn. You people have been busy.

(no sexual slur or any such nonsense intended.)

[Rec]

None taken, we just do not care for misinformation, (no slur or nonsense either, just the true facts!)

Our talents are many and varied! lol

[Phoenix]

This is quite an interesting find.
http://www.serendipity.li/zionism/khazars.htm

Never once did I consider that the Jews weren't even of Semitic origin. This is unbelievable!

EDIT: Here's more on "The Thirteenth Tribe"
http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/13trindx.htm


Really, this is fucking outstanding. How the hell???

[Rec]

Research into history will enlighten one, good show Phoenix, but always cross reference your sources !!!! Just a suggestion!

[Phoenix]

Research into history will enlighten one, good show Phoenix, but always cross reference your sources !!!! Just a suggestion!
I was mainly just throwing this out here out of intrigue. I wasn't sure if I believed it or not, and now I've found that the theory is a load of shit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Genetic_studies_on_Ashkenazi_Jewery

Yes, I realise it's Wikipedia, but it does cite its sources on this one.

[Limbo]

I was mainly just throwing this out here out of intrigue. I wasn't sure if I believed it or not, and now I've found that the theory is a load of shit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Khazars#Genetic_studies_on_Ashkenazi_Jewery

Yes, I realise it's Wikipedia, but it does cite its sources on this one.

I was going to tell you it was horse shit, but I'm glad you figured it out on your own. Anti-semitism has many tentacles and flavors. The old "modern day jews are imposters" theme is one of them. The black panthers make the claim that they are the real "hebrews". That right there tells you a lot. I think many white supremest groups do too.

[Patt]

I've always found that rather striking. So many peoples fighting to be 'the tribe' yet at the same time denying 'the book'.

Very odd - very.

[freakazoid]

Phoenix wants to gas all the jews now.

The truth about Israel and Palestine...

Israel belongs to the Jews

http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=28162

[Carrot]

Ancient history.

"the fact that the jews were driven of (etc(..by the romans doesn't change their deeds to the land" (paraphrase).

[Rec]

Being Jewish is not only a religious credo but a racial one, hence the reason that Hitler gassed the "imperfect race of mostly dark-skinned" inferior race as a ethnic cleansing. They were of Middle Eastern descent and were not the "supermen" vision of the blonde-haired blue eyed idealization of Neitschezes perfect race!

[Rec]

Ancient history.

"the fact that the jews were driven of (etc(..by the romans doesn't change their deeds to the land" (paraphrase).


Like it or not, we are still part of that ancient history whether we admit it or not.

[Carrot]

Like it or not, we are still part of that ancient history whether we admit it or not.

Then, why don't all non-native americans leave america, send all the blacks back to africa, and make sure all descendants of the norwegians/vikings are deported from the respective european countries.

Trying to give "people's land" back because ancestors from over 15 generations ago lived there...it's just stupid.

Ancient history is just that...ancient.

[Carrot]

In fact, I'm fairly suresome form of idol worshippers were there before judaism was founded...surely we should find some of them and have them form a country.

[Phoenix]

In fact, I'm fairly suresome form of idol worshippers were there before judaism was founded...surely we should find some of them and have them form a country.
The Caananites were there before.