Masterbation & Sin

[ohreally]

While it does remain a sin to those who believe, there's a very common misconception.

Usually there are two argument of why it is a sin. The first is that it is part of the "seven deadly sins" and the other being "abortion."

In the 'olden times' it was the ignorance of the people who deemed it as a sin. They didn't know the facts of semen, and that's primarily why they would deem it as what we would call abortion today. It's evident today though, that this reasoning of sin is clearly invalid.

It doesn't change the fact however, that it's part of the s even deadly sins - which is Lust.

[something]

While it does remain a sin to those who believe, there's a very common misconception.

Usually there are two argument of why it is a sin. The first is that it is part of the "seven deadly sins" and the other being "abortion."

In the 'olden times' it was the ignorance of the people who deemed it as a sin. They didn't know the facts of semen, and that's primarily why they would deem it as what we would call abortion today. It's evident today though, that this reasoning of sin is clearly invalid.

It doesn't change the fact however, that it's part of the s even deadly sins - which is Lust.

They say (or atleast they were used to say) that by masturbate you ruined your love to Jesus and God, and if you ever get married, would you never be able to give your entire love to your wife. Clearly bullshit.

[twisted_screams]

Religon sees every thing that is fun a sin if your not bible thumping to a preacher screaming or a chorus singing about god then its bad.:p

[something]

Religon sees every thing that is fun a sin if your not bible thumping to a preacher screaming or a chorus singing about god then its bad.:p

I know, there's a lot of dubbel moral in religion. If they just could see it from one way, would everything be much easier.:D

[MrBirdy]

The bible is uneducted about sexual relations, or ANYTHING revolving around medical science...
I personally believe this:
"If it doesnt hurt a third party, then it is not bad..."

[theicidal maniac]

While it does remain a sin to those who believe, there's a very common misconception.

Usually there are two argument of why it is a sin. The first is that it is part of the "seven deadly sins" and the other being "abortion."

In the 'olden times' it was the ignorance of the people who deemed it as a sin. They didn't know the facts of semen, and that's primarily why they would deem it as what we would call abortion today. It's evident today though, that this reasoning of sin is clearly invalid.

It doesn't change the fact however, that it's part of the s even deadly sins - which is Lust.

Interesting play on words there: MIS-conception...LOL. AWESOME! Secondly its spelled mastURbation:

"from 1766, from Mod.L. masturbationem, from L. masturbatus, pp. of masturbari, altered (probably by influence of turbare "to stir up") from *manstuprare, from manu, abl. of manus "hand" (see manual) + stuprare "defile" (oneself), from stuprum "defilement, dishonor," related to stupere "to be stunned, stupefied" (see stupid). Earlier Onanism (q.v.). The verb masturbate is first recorded 1857." (Online Etymological Dictionary)

By the way, there's nothing wrong with jerkin it, as long as you clean up after yourself. To anyone that says that you are killing sperm and potential humans I say you kill sperm and potential humans by having sex for reproduction, too. In fact you kill over 99.9999999% the same amount

[ajk]

The reason it's wrong is it's selfish plain and simple. It goes against what sex was made for to start with. When you have sex you're sharing yourself with another person. In masterbation it's not possible to share yourself with anything. As a result is it selfish.

[theicidal maniac]

The reason it's wrong is it's selfish plain and simple. It goes against what sex was made for to start with. When you have sex you're sharing yourself with another person. In masterbation it's not possible to share yourself with anything. As a result is it selfish.

Eating food is selfish. Is that wrong? Is masturbation still selfish if you let your partner watch, if that's what they are into?

[yea_thats_right1]

The reason it's wrong is it's selfish plain and simple. It goes against what sex was made for to start with. When you have sex you're sharing yourself with another person. In masterbation it's not possible to share yourself with anything. As a result is it selfish.

you cant tell me that married people just "make love" THAT is bullshit.... married people fuck too... and the diffrence between the two (which you know nothing about might i point out!) is that fucking is about raw basic instinct sex aka lust. I am married and we dont "make love" all of the time we fuck too.. its fun!!! lol... And hell yes materbation is selfish!!! DUH and you left out fun too by the way... come on ajk you know its fun! Hell my collie masterbates hahahahahahaha

[ajk]

Eating food is selfish. Is that wrong? Is masturbation still selfish if you let your partner watch, if that's what they are into?


Yes but you have to eat. You don't have to masterbate. And yes it still is selfish, because it's self serving.

[ajk]

Eating food is selfish. Is that wrong? Is masturbation still selfish if you let your partner watch, if that's what they are into?


Yes but you have to eat. You don't have to masterbate. And yes it still is selfish, because it's self serving, which is completely the opposite of what sex was meant to be about. It's about giving oneself to another, not giving only to yourself.

[theicidal maniac]

Yes but you have to eat. You don't have to masterbate. And yes it still is selfish, because it's self serving.

You only have to eat if you want to live....that's selfish. And like, what if I didn't wanna beat my meat and my wife was like, HEY, I really want you to whip out your meat stick and skin it. She says "why don't you go "downtown" and "rough up the suspect" and I'm like...sure babe...ANYTHING for you. That's not self-serving...as much. I bet oh_really's husband makes her frig herself in front of him, and I think we all know that EVEN YOU do it while you bite your pillow. Then you cry yourself to sleep.

Sinner.

And who the fuck do you think YOU are to say what sex is meant to be!??! you're a stupid virgin. YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT! some people's definition of making love includes foreplay, like masturbation, and *gasp* sodomy!!

[ajk]

I bet I'd know more about sex then some of you do.

[theicidal maniac]

I bet I'd know more about sex then some of you do.

Just the fact that you would even say that exhibits your virgin outlook on life. Anyone here who HAS had sex can tell you. YOU DON'T KNOW SHIT.

[ajk]

I may not know anything about the act of sex itself, however I know enough to know how it is and how is not meant to be used. Sex is a gift, and many of us abuse that gift in the world today.

[theicidal maniac]

I may not know anything about the act of sex itself, however I know enough to know how it is and how is not meant to be used. Sex is a gift, and many of us abuse that gift in the world today.

That is speculation. YOU ASSUME that you know what it is meant to be. You ASSUME it's a gift. You ASSUME pussy tastes like pumpkin pie...but you don't KNOW SHIT!

[yea_thats_right1]

I bet I'd know more about sex then some of you do.

lol are you going to give us websites and bible quotes to look at to prove that? ahaha... you cant know anything about sex unless you have done it yourself... do you know what its like to jump out of an airplane above enemy territory knowing you might not make it back to your wife and new baby at home? do you know what that feels like? Do you know what it feels like to watch your husband you love with all of your heart walk onto a plane headed to iraq? How about getting raped? Do you know what that feels like or how it affects ones mind on a deep personal level? Do YOU know what it feels like to have an unwanted pregnancy? AJK do YOU pesonally know what it feels like? How can you properly assess a situation if all you have to go on are words written thousands of years ago and websites with controlled studies but dont know what it FEELS like to be in that situation? Think about it.. let it marinate before you post a reply filled with whats wrong is wrong and tell me how you personally feel deep deep down in your heart... not what you "think" might be right but what you KNOW... try really hard to put yourself in someone elses shoes... i mean really put yourself in their shoes... not your mind in their shoes... your soul.

[Ausinus]

lol are you going to give us websites and bible quotes to look at to prove that? ahaha... you cant know anything about sex unless you have done it yourself... do you know what its like to jump out of an airplane above enemy territory knowing you might not make it back to your wife and new baby at home? do you know what that feels like? do you know the emotions and feelings involved? NO. you dont. because you havent done it. now you can show me websites with blogs about it and some statistics but reading all of that doesnt mean you KNOW how it feels to be in that situation, so stop acting like it ok? its fucking insulting... bottom line.

Woo yeah! Ajk you got your ass whipped by cristy big time:D

[ajk]

lol are you going to give us websites and bible quotes to look at to prove that? ahaha... you cant know anything about sex unless you have done it yourself... do you know what its like to jump out of an airplane above enemy territory knowing you might not make it back to your wife and new baby at home? do you know what that feels like? do you know the emotions and feelings involved? NO. you dont. because you havent done it. now you can show me websites with blogs about it and some statistics but reading all of that doesnt mean you KNOW how it feels to be in that situation, so stop acting like it ok? its fucking insulting... bottom line.

I didn't say I know what's it like to be in that situation, and I'd be lying if I said I did. All I'm saying is, I know when it's right and okay to have sex, and when it is not.

[yea_thats_right1]

i was trying to make a comparison... i edited my last post... read then reply

[Ausinus]

i was trying to make a comparison... i edited my last post... read then reply

Omg.....a woman using a computer? SIN! SIN! :D

[yea_thats_right1]

i know! everytime i turn around im going to hell LOL

[ajk]

Obviously (since I am a guy) I don't know like it's like to be raped or get pregnant. However as I have said before, all of us in life have our own crosses to bear. Some have tougher roads then others might, but just the same we all have to deal with them. That's just a part of life.

[who897]

The reason it's wrong is it's selfish plain and simple. It goes against what sex was made for to start with. When you have sex you're sharing yourself with another person. In masterbation it's not possible to share yourself with anything. As a result is it selfish.

How do you know what sex is meant for? You've never had it! Who made you the omnipotent being on the reasons for sex! Are you seriously so naive to believe that you have never done anything selfish? No, eating is not necissary to life, we have this thing called feeding tubes which supply nutrients, so as the Australians would say "Bugger Off Mate". Why the fuck would you shower, you can't share your cleanliness with anyone else! Why the fuck hunt, you could go to the store and get your meals, it's selfish to kill an animal with your own hand! Why the fuck would you want others to be like you, that's fucking selfish in itself! Why the fuck do anything, regardless of what you do, you do it for yourself, even helping others you are doing it to make yourself feel better through helping others, that's still being selfish! You should really open up a landfill because I have never seen anyone in my life speak as much garbage as you do!

My name is WHO897 and I approve this fucking message!

[yea_thats_right1]

exactly... and how we choose to deal with them is OUR business since it is our own personal selves who are being affected more deeply than anyone else could imagine. as you have just agreed.

[ajk]

No I didn't agree to anything at all there. You missed my point entirely. Sometimes things happen that are beyond our control,such as pregnancy through rape. But that doesn't give anyone an excuse to murder another regardless of the circumstance. It's something that we have to learn to accept as something we will have to deal with. It may be hard, but the positives in the end that you would get from it, would outweigh any of the negatives. You'd be a stronger person for it in fact.

That's the whole purpose of having a cross to bear really. For if you can make it through it, you will be a better person then you were before it happened.

[yea_thats_right1]

see the FACT of the matter hun is that YOU dont KNOW what its like so you cant possibly be correct when you say "It may be hard, but the positives in the end that you would get from it, would outweigh any of the negatives." and why wouldnt you be correct??? well ill tell ya because YOU dont KNOW that for a fact. :)

[ajk]

Well don't you think it would be better to have a child say 30 years down the line then to not have one? What if you never did get pregnant again?

[yea_thats_right1]

then that is something that you have the right to deal with...

[ajk]

That doesn't answer my question. A simple yes or no will do.

[Ausinus]

Well don't you think it would be better to have a child say 30 years down the line then to not have one? What if you never did get pregnant again?

Omg: ajk, its called adoption.:eek: Or there is IVF, or using a surrogate mother. There are a lot of options these days, it isnt the stone age.

[ajk]

How interesting you would say that being the pro abortion person you are.

[Ausinus]

How interesting you would say that being the pro abortion person you are.

Im not pro abortion fuckwit, I am pro choice. Mothers can simply give the child away to adoption if they want, whatever floats their boat. I just want the option available to women, so they can make a decision WITHOUT influence from say, you catholic bastards who preach outside abortion clinics.

[ajk]

Same difference. Pro choice= pro abortion since you think it's ok.

[Ausinus]

Same difference. Pro choice= pro abortion since you think it's ok.

No, pro abortion means you think women should have abortions. Pro choice means that you think women should have the CHOICE of abortion.

[ajk]

No you're still advocating it, even if you don't neccessarily think everyone should everyone. Since you're still advocating it as ok to do, you are pro abortion. It's the same thing.

[Ausinus]

Whatever floats your boat.

[Ausinus]

Like I said before, if she had an abortion and cannot get pregnant naturally there is always IVF, adoption and surrogates.

[theicidal maniac]

Here's the real problem; if you aren't pro-choice, then you are anti-choice. So basically you want to take people's choices away from them. But who decides what choices we keep and what choices we lose? You? Your book? If you gave a wheelbarrow to the people that wrote the Old Testament they would be stunned by the technological masterpiece of the one-wheeled bucket, and these are the writings you turn to on matters like stem-cell research and abortion!? Give me a fucking break! It's already been exhibited that you don't KNOW about ANY of the things you talk about. EVERYTHING that you believe in is a MYTH. A SUPERSTITION. A DISEASE of humanity called IRRATIONALITY. Science is not our enemy, man, religion is. Science frees the mind, religion ensnares it. Science gives us options, religion takes them away.

[ohreally]

I bet I'd know more about sex then some of you do.
LMFAO! Coming from a Virgin who thinks sex is wrong! :p

Hahahhahhahahahahhahaahahaahaa!


i know! everytime i turn around im going to hell LOL
LMAO! I guess so... you know God...he's a complete sexist!


Same difference. Pro choice= pro abortion since you think it's ok.
You damn idiot! See, this is what these people [crazy ass parents or something] stuff in your simple ass mind.

[General Septem]

I see where this one's going.

[theicidal maniac]

I see where this one's going.

Well I'm glad you can still see, cause string at an eclipse ain't the only thin that'll make you go blind.

[ajk]

You damn idiot! See, this is what these people [crazy ass parents or something] stuff in your simple ass mind.

You cannot be pro choice without being pro abortion as well. It just doesn't work.

[ajk]

Here's the real problem; if you aren't pro-choice, then you are anti-choice.

Again I'm all for choice for the woman, for HERSELF.

[ohreally]

Again I'm all for choice for the woman, for HERSELF.
Okay but as long as the thing doesn't trespass on her property [aka developing and intruding - stealing resources from her body] then I'm okay with it. :D

[Ausinus]

You cannot be pro choice without being pro abortion as well. It just doesn't work.

It does actually work, except when fuckwits like you try to twist it.. Anyway you are ANTI CHOICE.

[ajk]

No I am not. I don't mind the choice for a woman. But not a choice in which she can kill her child.

[Ausinus]

No I am not. I don't mind the choice for a woman. But not a choice in which she can kill her child.

Hey, its her foetus. She can do what she likes with it.

[ajk]

She shouldn't though. It's common sense. You don't kill, for any reason other then self defense. Period.

[yea_thats_right1]

ok well then a woman who doesnt want a baby to take over her body would be killing it in self defense!!!!!!!! so then by ur standards its ok

[Ausinus]

She shouldn't though. It's common sense. You don't kill, for any reason other then self defense. Period.

No, its common sense that a person should have bodily autonomy.

[ajk]

Tell that to the dead baby.

[Ausinus]

Tell that to the dead baby.

It isnt a baby, it is a foetus. And I dont really give a shit about a foetus. All I care about is the woman being able to choose.

[ajk]

Same damn thing. It's still a human being at the core of it. As such you cannot take it away.

[ajk]

And I dont really give a shit about a foetus. All I care about is the woman being able to choose.

Then I guess you don't care much about yourself then either, as you were just like the fetus once.

[Ausinus]

Same damn thing. It's still a human being at the core of it. As such you cannot take it away.

Its not a being, and we have more in common with other animals than with a foetus.

It isnt the same thing, if you took a biology course you would know that. But being the fuckwit you are, I dont expect anything intelligent from you.

[ajk]

I can say the same for you.

[Ausinus]

I can say the same for you.

Whatever you want.

[General Septem]

Hey, its her foetus.

Nobody is anyone's anything. You even said so yourself. Ownership of one's unborn offspring is no better than ownership of a slave or ownership of a woman.

[Ausinus]

Nobody is anyone's anything. You even said so yourself. Ownership of one's unborn offspring is no better than ownership of a slave or ownership of a woman.

Ownership of another PERSON is wrong.

[General Septem]

Ownership of another PERSON is wrong.

Your point being?

And no, ownership of another human being is wrong. Otherwise you get people who start saying the blacks are human but not people.

[Ausinus]

Your point being?

And no, ownership of another human being is wrong. Otherwise you get people who start saying the blacks are human but not people.

But you can prove they are people.

[General Septem]

But you can prove they are people.

Yet you cannot prove why ownership of another human being isn't wrong as long as they're not a person.

[Ausinus]

Yet you cannot prove why ownership of another human being isn't wrong as long as they're not a person.

Well I can prove it, because the foetus is inviable outside the woman.

[General Septem]

Well I can prove it, because the foetus is inviable outside the woman.

Which means shit.

[Ausinus]

Which means shit.

Which means it is her's alone.

[General Septem]

Which means it is her's alone.

That's about as vague a connection as saying George Bush must be smart because the Prime Minister of England is smart.

[Ausinus]

That's about as vague a connection as saying George Bush must be smart because the Prime Minister of England is smart.

No, it isnt. The foetus is incapable of living outside the mother, and is dependent on her alone for survival. So it is hers.

[ajk]

It's God's first and foremost.

[theicidal maniac]

Yet you cannot prove why ownership of another human being isn't wrong as long as they're not a person.
That's because "wrong" is subjective. It can't be proved. It's opinion. If it is opinion, then you have the right to CHOOSE.


It's God's first and foremost.
So where the fuck is HE? Why doesn't HE save the baby? If it's his, then he has the duty to make sure it gets life, just as you think a human parent does. God is pretend. Wake the hell up, son.

[ajk]

So where the fuck is HE? Why doesn't HE save the baby? If it's his, then he has the duty to make sure it gets life, just as you think a human parent does.

Yes but not if that gets in the way of our own free will at the same time.

[Ausinus]

Yes but not if that gets in the way of our own free will at the same time.

Well god isnt really against abortion then. Or he is really lazy.

[who897]

Your "god" can suck my left testical, because the right one is reserved for making little babies to abort!

[theicidal maniac]

Yes but not if that gets in the way of our own free will at the same time.

So then he doesn't have power over our will?

[ajk]

No he doesn't. What we do in our life (and where we end up after it), is up to us. We decide our fate.

[theicidal maniac]

No he doesn't. What we do in our life (and where we end up after it), is up to us. We decide our fate.

So how is he God, then? Hecan't do anything for you. He's useless, you're life can in no way benefit from him. Your God is a lame duck.

[ajk]

Yes he can, for those who believe at least. He can do plenty if we let him. That's the thing, if we don't allow him into our lives then he can't do anything for us.

[Ausinus]

Yes he can, for those who believe at least. He can do plenty if we let him. That's the thing, if we don't allow him into our lives then he can't do anything for us.

Or maybe he just doesnt exist.

[ajk]

Yeah... right.

Or maybe he does and you're just too blinded by your own selfishness to see it.

[Ausinus]

Yeah... right.

Or maybe he does and you're just too blinded by your own selfishness to see it.

Or maybe you are just too blinded by your whacked out religion not to see it.

[theicidal maniac]

Yeah... right.

Or maybe he does and you're just too blinded by your own selfishness to see it.

Oh, yeah, AJK's right, it's far more likely that Science and all it's proof is wrong than religion and all it's unverifiable speculation.....oh yeah, totally. I mean it isn't MATHEMATICALLY more likely...but, ya know, philosophically, um, or theoretically uh, well, no...er....wait...something's not adding up here.....

huh...

Shit, maybe God just doesn't exist!

And by "blinded by your own selfishness" are you trying to suggest that Ausi is going blind from jacking off, cuz that is just so Junior High, man. Geez, grow up.

[ajk]

In response to that, I bring up an example as to why evolution doesn't work. I was watching television one night recently, and I saw a priest on EWTN (catholic TV network for those not in the know), and he took a cut out of the Letter A. He then proceeded to take that A and cut it into 3 pieces. He demonstrated that if he wanted to make it an A again, he could simply just put the 3 pieces back together to form it.

He then dropped the 3 pieces on the ground, and they did not form an A nor would they ever form an A. The point he was trying to make with this demonstration, was that it takes the thought of someone and then them acting on this thought to make anything happen in the world. Things don't just happen by random chance.

The same thing applies to us as people. In order for us to be created, it took the idea of someone (God), and then that someone acting on that thought and doing something about it to turn that thought into reality.

[Ausinus]

That is because the probability of those 3 pieces forming an A is infinitesimally small, near non existant. However, the probability of simple chemicals coming together to form monomers, polymers, amino acids and so forth is much higher. Additionally, you are getting Evolution confused with Abiogenesis. Evolution and its mechanism, Natural Selection, is virtually proven, we see it occuring in nature all the time.

[something]

Yeah... right.

Or maybe he does and you're just too blinded by your own selfishness to see it.

If anything is selfish is it beliving in god. You do a lot of good things, but to help your own soul, while we atheists get called selfish, even if we care about people, just becouse they need care, and not god. You get it? people and good is two different things. Not only becouse one of them exist, but becouse people need someone to care about them, becouse he wants to, not becouse god wants to!:mad:

[General Septem]

No, it isnt. The foetus is incapable of living outside the mother, and is dependent on her alone for survival. So it is hers.

That's not conducive to anything. I could provide reasons why anyone belongs to anyone, but it still wouldn't be conducive to anything.

[something]

Why does every single thread end up with a disscussion about abortion?

[ajk]

If anything is selfish is it beliving in god. You do a lot of good things, but to help your own soul, while we atheists get called selfish, even if we care about people, just becouse they need care, and not god.

I never said it is selfish to care about other people at all. Good for you if care enough about someone to help them in whatever way you can. As for us doing good things just to help our own souls, that's not the only reason we do it. We do it because it's just the right thing to do. The fact that it helps us as we try and get to Heaven is a bonus.

Keep in mind BTW, that where there is good there is also God. I say that because he envelops all which that is good.

[something]

I never said it is selfish to care about other people at all. Good for you if care enough about someone to help them in whatever way you can. As for us doing good things just to help our own souls, that's not the only reason we do it. We do it because it's just the right thing to do. The fact that it helps us as we try and get to Heaven is a bonus.

Keep in mind BTW, that where there is good there is also God. I say that because he envelops all which that is good.

I can't belive that you actually sayed that. There's a lot of good things in the world that doesn't have a shit to do with god, atleast not the chrstian one. During the middle ages was christianity the source of suffering. God punished you if you did'nt go to church, you get killed if you didn't belive in god, and if you really cared about god could you prove it by joining the cruisades and kill thousands of moslems and jewish. The world become good when things like sience, free choices, equality for everyone etc. were accepted. And Japan and Southkorea is two really nice countrys, but there never been christians there that wasn't slayed.

[ajk]

Even if you don't realize it, anything that is good has God involved somehow. BTW would care to give an example of something that has nothing do with God that is good?

[something]

Even if you don't realize it, anything that is good has God involved somehow. BTW would care to give an example of something that has nothing do with God that is good?

If I would, but since you belive that god created everything will it mean nothing to you.

[ajk]

Funny you're the same way. I could give the most proof you could ever want, and you still wouldn't believe me.

[something]

Funny you're the same way. I could give the most proof you could ever want, and you still wouldn't believe me.

Allright, give me a proof that god exist that I can't explain wthuot saying "It's an illusion".

[ohreally]

Keep in mind BTW, that where there is good there is also God. I say that because he envelops all which that is good.
That's a broad statement really. If guess if some guy wins the lottery for example, I guess it was good for him so God must have been there jumping for joy as well!

So you feel this war is good since you probably supported double-ya, and you probably feel all proud about it (because we know God is jumping for joy that we are at war). Yeahhhhhhhhhhhhhh I think you try to play God - and way too much rather than actually focus on his teachings.

According to you, you have the correct judgment to whose life is more valuable.

Nothing but a power hungry sexist that lusts for restrictions upon Women...

Do us a favor and stop playing God, because your not God himself. We shouldn't need government law to tell us how to live, it's up to those who believe to act upon their teachings. Tell me this then, if one who wants to have an abortion can't because the law prohibits them, then it helps them be saved? I think not. In fact, law is for lazy Christians who need to be told what to do. It's trying to prevent sin - but Christians like yourself ajk don't even realize that sin is intended to help as a measuring stick. If people avoid sin because they learn that it's just unlawful, then isn't that false Gods? Instead of learning it's a sin and why it's wrong within Gods teachings - all they know is that it's not legal.

[something]

That is true, but a lot of christian people does't in many cases care about the law so much, and many laws are inspred by the bible.

[Ausinus]

God punished you if you did'nt go to church, you get killed if you didn't belive in god, and if you really cared about god could you prove it by joining the cruisades and kill thousands of moslems and jewish.

Not to mention thousands of other christians too.

[Ausinus]

That is true, but a lot of christian people does't in many cases care about the law so much, and many laws are inspred by the bible.

Name one law that was totally inspired by the bible. That isnt going to be stricken soon.

[ajk]

Do us a favor and stop playing God, because your not God himself.

How ironic you say that, when you people play God all the time by allowing innocent life to die. Life that isn't meant to die just yet (in most cases at least)

[ajk]

Allright, give me a proof that god exist that I can't explain wthuot saying "It's an illusion".

I'm not even gonna bother. Anything I tell you will just be refuted, with stupid ignorant arguments such as, "it's an illusion", "that's coincidence", or my personal favorite "sugar pills".

[Ausinus]

How ironic you say that, when you people play God all the time by allowing innocent life to die. Life that isn't meant to die just yet (in most cases at least)

Ah, but did you not say that only god knows a thing's time to die?

[ajk]

Yes, but we are interfering with that. Therefore we are playing God.

[Ausinus]

I'm not even gonna bother. Anything I tell you will just be refuted, with stupid ignorant arguments such as, "it's an illusion", "that's coincidence", or my personal favorite "sugar pills".

You can always attribute "visions" to

-Hallucination
-Munchausen Syndrome
-Placebo (not sugar pills asshole)
-Wishful thinking
-Other psychological conditions

And the fact that we can refute it with a logical argument shows that your "proof", isnt really that valid. Unless god himself appeared, and it was verified that he was indeed a god, then there really is no evidence.

[ajk]

Whatever you want to call them, they're all ignorant statements regardless.

[Ausinus]

Whatever you want to call them, they're all ignorant statements regardless.

They are all real psychological syndromes or effects, which can explain both delusions such as people seeing the easter bunny or god.

[ajk]

Yes but it cannot explain every thing that happens to a person. We have to realize that there are certain things that may happen to us, that for whatever reason cannot be explained by physical means. It doesn't change the fact that what they experienced was in fact real.

[Ausinus]

Yes but it cannot explain every thing that happens to a person. We have to realize that there are certain things that may happen to us, that for whatever reason cannot be explained by physical means. It doesn't change the fact that what they experienced was in fact real.

Ok, so I guess that we should believe all the people who say that they were abducted by aliens and see little gnomes ratting around in their underwear drawers.

Its just more hallucinatory bullshit. And wouldnt visions go against the concept of free will?

[ajk]

Ok, so I guess that we should believe all the people who say that they were abducted by aliens and see little gnomes ratting around in their underwear drawers.

Well now obviously there are things that are just what you think they are. Halluncinations, dreams, nightmares, whatever. But at the same time there are things that really do happen as well.


Its just more hallucinatory bullshit. And wouldnt visions go against the concept of free will?

Not quite. It's one thing to have the vision, but what you take from that vision is entirely up to you.

[Ausinus]

Well now obviously there are things that are just what you think they are. Halluncinations, dreams, nightmares, whatever. But at the same time there are things that really do happen as well.

So what makes them any different from visions about god?

[ajk]

Because those things are known to be to false or not true. God on the other hand is real, more real then you could ever realize or understand.

[Ausinus]

Because those things are known to be to false or not true. God on the other hand is real, more real then you could ever realize or understand.

Yet there is no evidence for god, how interesting. So there is no evidence for god, apart from testimony, but he exists. Yet there is also no evidence for underwear gnomes, apart from testimony, but they don't exist.

Sounds like a fallacious and bullshit argument to me.

[ajk]

The difference is this, people of all ages have experienced things like this. Can the same be said for "gnomes" or the boogeyman? I think not.

[Ausinus]

The difference is this, people of all ages have experienced things like this. Can the same be said for "gnomes" or the boogeyman? I think not.

It can be said of a lot of things. People of all ages have experienced "invisible friends", etc.

[theicidal maniac]

In response to that, I bring up an example as to why evolution doesn't work. I was watching television one night recently, and I saw a priest on EWTN (catholic TV network for those not in the know), and he took a cut out of the Letter A. He then proceeded to take that A and cut it into 3 pieces. He demonstrated that if he wanted to make it an A again, he could simply just put the 3 pieces back together to form it.

He then dropped the 3 pieces on the ground, and they did not form an A nor would they ever form an A. The point he was trying to make with this demonstration, was that it takes the thought of someone and then them acting on this thought to make anything happen in the world. Things don't just happen by random chance.

The same thing applies to us as people. In order for us to be created, it took the idea of someone (God), and then that someone acting on that thought and doing something about it to turn that thought into reality.

That's rediculously stupid...it takes someone acting upon it because the letter A is a HUMAN INVENTION to express a HUMAN SOUND..not a living, organic thing. Read a damn book man. Try, "the Blind Watch Maker" by Richard Dawkins. You can argue for design by saying that the fact that things exist and work mean that someone designed them but it's an incorrect assumption...because EVERYTHING used in that argument is something invented BY HUMANS. Nothing in nature supports this claim, and EVERYTHING in nature helps to support the claim of evolution. You only THINK that it doesn't because your only source of information is anti-evolutionist propaganda from the Eternal Word network. You are completely ignorant...if you want to argue about this intelligently, then PLEASE go study it so you have a clue what the hell you are talking about.


How ironic you say that, when you people play God all the time by allowing innocent life to die. Life that isn't meant to die just yet (in most cases at least)

Life is meant to die...THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT LIFE MORON.

[ohreally]

Yes, but we are interfering with that. Therefore we are playing God.
You are the one playing God. You act like you rule the land and should be able to strip the rights to freedom and create havoc. Yeah that's a great thing to do - create havoc. Haven't you done enough supporting a war (and yet you still say your pro life hahahahahaha). Not only that, you create your own shit up outside of context.

How are we playing God if we are interfering with God knowing all? He is supposed to know all, no matter what. So now your saying he doesn't know all basically. Thanks for sharing that.

How can you even call yourself a Christian when your just making up all kinds of shit? Where is it in scripture(s) that says we interfere with Gods knowledge? You just basically admitted that God is not perfect, and that he cannot know all because we interact.

I don't even think you know your own religion.

[who897]

If I was created in "Your God's" image, then shit, I'm gonna play however the hell I wanna!

[ajk]

Life is meant to die...THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT LIFE MORON.

That isn't the point. We cannot take it upon ourselves to take that life before it is meant to be taken away from this earth.

[ajk]

How are we playing God if we are interfering with God knowing all? He is supposed to know all, no matter what. So now your saying he doesn't know all basically. Thanks for sharing that.


We are interfering because we are taking a person away before their time is actually supposed to be up. God is not going to interfere with us doing that because it would take away our free will then.

[Ausinus]

We are interfering because we are taking a person away before their time is actually supposed to be up.

But how do you know when their time is supposed to be up?


God is not going to interfere with us doing that because it would take away our free will then.

If one of your children was about to kill the other, and you had the power to intervene, would you do it?

[who897]

We are interfering because we are taking a person away before their time is actually supposed to be up. God is not going to interfere with us doing that because it would take away our free will then.

We are not taking someones life away! We are merely accepting the fact that we should be able to speed the process of life up. If we can prolong the process why not shorten it? Don't look at it like a death, look at it as a life, a life that was well spent. It did the best it could with what little time it had. If only the same could be said of you.

[ajk]

We are not taking someones life away! We are merely accepting the fact that we should be able to speed the process of life up. If we can prolong the process why not shorten it? Don't look at it like a death, look at it as a life, a life that was well spent. It did the best it could with what little time it had. If only the same could be said of you.

A life well spent? Are you kidding me? The child didn't even live for Heaven's sake!!

[ajk]

But how do you know when their time is supposed to be up?

I don't, but at the same time I know God would not plan for something to happen that goes against His own principles.


If one of your children was about to kill the other, and you had the power to intervene, would you do it?

Yes but that would be different, because I am there in the physical sense to break it up if I feel the need to do so. God doesn't control what we do, He can try his best to get us to do the right things, but he can't stop us from doing something bad either.

[Ausinus]

I don't, but at the same time I know God would not plan for something to happen that goes against His own principles.

What principles?


Yes but that would be different, because I am there in the physical sense to break it up if I feel the need to do so. God doesn't control what we do, He can try his best to get us to do the right things, but he can't stop us from doing something bad either.

So he isnt omnipotent then.

[ajk]

What principles?

Uh does Thou Not Kill ring a bell?


So he isnt omnipotent then.

That's not true. He may choose to not use his power at various times, but that doesn't mean he isn't omnipotent.

[Ausinus]

Uh does Thou Not Kill ring a bell?

It cant be his values, as the same bible tells of god slaughtering thousands of innocents or advocating the slaughter therof.

Speaking of which guess what I found out. In the greek, it is actually "thou shalt not murder".


That's not true. He may choose to not use his power at various times, but that doesn't mean he isn't omnipotent.

Well then why doesnt he intervene?

[ajk]

Speaking of which guess what I found out. In the greek, it is actually "thou shalt not murder".

Abortion is just that, so my point stands.


Well then why doesnt he intervene?

For the same reason a parent might not intervene in certain situations. So that through that action and it's consequence, the person can hopefully learn from the mistake made.

[Ausinus]

Abortion is just that, so my point stands.

Well, technically murder is the intentional killing of another person. And abortion is in a legal class all of its own.


For the same reason a parent might not intervene in certain situations. So that through that action and it's consequence, the person can hopefully learn from the mistake made.

Wow. Its amazing, maybe when I have kids I should just let one kill the other so the killer can "learn a lesson"/

[ajk]

Well, technically murder is the intentional killing of another person. And abortion is in a legal class all of its own.

Call it what you want, but it will still always be murder.


Wow. Its amazing, maybe when I have kids I should just let one kill the other so the killer can "learn a lesson"/

Look I'm not condoning the killing of another person by any means, but the fact is God will not interfere with our free will. That's not how he operates. If someone abuses their free will that's their fault not God's.

[Ausinus]

Call it what you want, but it will still always be murder.

Call it what you want, it will always be abortion.


Look I'm not condoning the killing of another person by any means, but the fact is God will not interfere with our free will. That's not how he operates. If someone abuses their free will that's their fault not God's.

Well then god is not all loving, because if he really loved us then he would intervene regardless of free will.

[ajk]

Yes he is loving. If He wasn't, he would be forcing us to be with Him no matter what. He wants us to be with Him and do good because we want to, not because He wants us to.

And abortion and murder are one in the same.

[Ausinus]

Yes he is loving. If He wasn't, he would be forcing us to be with Him no matter what. He wants us to be with Him and do good because we want to, not because He wants us to.

So he lets us go to hell for the sake of free will? God has some serious priority issues.


And abortion and murder are one in the same.

Not really, no.

[ajk]

Yes it is, you are intentionally taking another life away. As a result it is murder.

[Ausinus]

Yes it is, you are intentionally taking another life away. As a result it is murder.

No, it is better defined as abortion. In any case, taking another life intentionally is not murder, or else killing animals, even for food, would be murder. Therefore it is better defined as taking the life of another person.

[ajk]

No, it is better defined as abortion.

I don't give a damn how you define it, it is still murder.


In any case, taking another life intentionally is not murder, or else killing animals, even for food, would be murder.

No that's different. Taking animal life for food is one thing, taking human life is another.


Therefore it is better defined as taking the life of another person.

Same damn thing.

[ohreally]

Yes he is loving.



If He wasn't [loving], he would be forcing us to be with Him no matter what.

So on the contrary, he is loving and resists us being with him no matter what?

[Ape-Shit]

What in the Hell are you guys talking about? This thread started as Masterbation and Sin. Went to abortion and then to God.

Re: Masterbation, Michael Jackson and Beat It. (it's his choice).

Re: Abortion, It's her Choice.

Re: God, Who's God are we talking about?

Re: ajk, being a fuckwit, (ajk is a fuckwitting idiot) my opinion and my choice to say so. It doesn't make a "SHIT" to me what anybody else thinks otherwise.




When I grow up I want to become a Morman with 10 wifes.:p

[General Septem]

So on the contrary, he is loving and resists us being with him no matter what?

No, He just won't force us to be with Him against our will. Mind you, only a fool would choose to be away from God, but that's their choice and God respects that.

[General Septem]

Life is meant to die...THAT'S WHAT MAKES IT LIFE MORON.

That doesn't make it right to murder someone.

[who897]

A life well spent? Are you kidding me? The child didn't even live for Heaven's sake!!

Dude, you should be pro choice then. Most of us think that the fetus isn't really life and therefore isn't really subject to "death" so there is nothing wrong to it.

[something]

I don't get why the religus assholes keep saying that a fetus us a human. Why don't they say that it is wrong becouse it's goin to become a human. I wouldn't agree on that but it is an argument that is much more accepteble.

[General Septem]

I don't get why the religus assholes keep saying that a fetus us a human. Why don't they say that it is wrong becouse it's goin to become a human. I wouldn't agree on that but it is an argument that is much more accepteble.

Because it's not going to become a human, it already is. This is an irrefutable biological fact.

[something]

Because it's not going to become a human, it already is. This is an irrefutable biological fact.

WRONG!! It's not a human, it's just you religus that say so:mad:

[General Septem]

WRONG!! It's not a human, it's just you religus that say so:mad:
Did you hear what I just said? It's an irrefutable biological fact, not open for debate. Our limbs are not what make us human.

[ajk]

Dude, you should be pro choice then. Most of us think that the fetus isn't really life and therefore isn't really subject to "death" so there is nothing wrong to it.

Well "most of you" are wrong. There is everything wrong with abortion.

[something]

Did you hear what I just said? It's an irrefutable biological fact, not open for debate. Our limbs are not what make us human.

With wrong I meant your "biological facts". Biological facts shows that a fetus, generally, not is a human. But, thoose facts aren't deffirnitly the right ones, so, Yes, it's open for debate.

[Ape-Shit]

Here we go again.

A FETUS is a FETUS. That's why it's called a "FETUS". It is not a Human or it would be called a Human.

This subject is a No Header. Neither side sees or agrees to the others point of view. Good Luck on you debates.

Whatever happened to the Masturbation and Sin thing?

ps: Destroying a Fetus is no more wrong than killing a chicken, cow or fish.

So Moooooo......!:p

[ajk]

No that's wrong. A fetus is human, animals are a different matter.

[something]

How can a fetus be a human? What make a fetus, to a human?

[ajk]

Because it has it's own human DNA. That's why. It may not be fully formed as of yet, but it doesn't mean it isn't human.

[General Septem]

Back to the old name game, are we?I guess nobody reads my posts when I describe why fetuses are fetuses and humans, and all that.

[ohreally]

Back to the old name game, are we?I guess nobody reads my posts when I describe why fetuses are fetuses and humans, and all that.
I agree, the name game is getting a bit out of control. Regardless of how we classify things in the physical world, we still have to take into consideration of what it is - and obviously, it's still a human.

I'll be honest, I have very mixed feeling about abortion issue even though I may have not shown it. It's one thing to blatantly enjoy abortion and just keep having sex, it's another to honestly feel unready, and another thing which is health issues, and finally situational situations (rape, etc). I just don't know how it can be justified without upsetting somebody.

[theicidal maniac]

Because it's not going to become a human, it already is. This is an irrefutable biological fact.

No. It's not. Biologically at that point it is not human. Neither is it a human in an Aesthetic way. In fact, it is not HUMAN in any way that defines us as human. At a developmental stage we could still manipulate the genes and cause it to DEVELOP into something different. For instance, there was a freaky-crazy experiment where jellyfish genes were injected into rat embryos and THE RATS GLOWED IN THE DARK!!! Those are no longer "rats," as they were before. That's a new species.

[ajk]

I'll be honest, I have very mixed feeling about abortion issue even though I may have not shown it. It's one thing to blatantly enjoy abortion and just keep having sex

To be fair, I don't think anyone who goes through an abortion actually enjoys it. What happens is, the woman uses the abortion as a means of solving a problem that in a lot of cases they themselves had a hand in creating. It's not that they wanted this to happen by any means. They tend to see it as the only way out of a situation they never expected would happen to them. Unfortunately some even after going through something like that once, they don't learn and end up having several more abortions as their life goes on.

That's why particularly in cases like that, it's important to have the child. Not just because it's a human life, but because through that, the woman learns a lesson that having an abortion can not give. Through taking care of and raising that child as it grows up, it stands a constant reminder to her as to what can happen if she isn't careful. That in turn makes her less likely to make that same mistake again.

[theicidal maniac]

To be fair, I don't think anyone who goes through an abortion actually enjoys it. What happens is, the woman uses the abortion as a means of solving a problem that in a lot of cases they themselves had a hand in creating. It's not that they wanted this to happen by any means. They tend to see it as the only way out of a situation they never expected would happen to them.

So then why are you saying that we should limit their solution options?


That's why particularly in cases like that, it's important to have the child. Not just because it's a human life, but because through that, the woman learns a lesson that having an abortion can not give. Through taking care of and raising that child as it grows up, it stands a constant reminder to her as to what can happen if she isn't careful. That in turn makes her less likely to make that same mistake again.

It's important to YOU...but YOU aren't the one that's gonna have to have a child, so you really have no right commenting on it. And having a child doesn't necessarily teach responsibility. The parent may, in fact, never become responsible, and neglect the child. The child grows up thinking that neglect and irresponsibility are the norm, cuz that's what they learned from mommy, so they repeat the cycle...is THAT a better solution?

[ajk]

So then why are you saying that we should limit their solution options?

Because it's something they could have prevented themselves. They made the choice, now they have to deal with it. Abortion is not dealing with it. If anything it's running away from the problem, by trying to forget it ever happened.




It's important to YOU...but YOU aren't the one that's gonna have to have a child, so you really have no right commenting on it.

You know it's interesting you call me sexist, but with that statement you in fact are sexist yourself. You are being discriminate against Men. Basically saying we have no right to say anything because of who we are. You can't tell me that's fair.


And having a child doesn't necessarily teach responsibility. The parent may, in fact, never become responsible, and neglect the child. The child grows up thinking that neglect and irresponsibility are the norm, cuz that's what they learned from mommy, so they repeat the cycle...is THAT a better solution?


Yes because if nothing else they were given the chance to live life. And again there is always adoption if the woman doesn't want to take care of the baby.

[theicidal maniac]

Because it's something they could have prevented themselves. They made the choice, now they have to deal with it. Abortion is not dealing with it. If anything it's running away from the problem, by trying to forget it ever happened.
Lots of things that can be prevented DON'T GET PREVENTED. When they are done they are no longer preventable, but you CAN take steps to make for a better outcome.

You know it's interesting you call me sexist, but with that statement you in fact are sexist yourself. You are being discriminate against Men. Basically saying we have no right to say anything because of who we are. You can't tell me that's fair.
You idiot. No I'm not. I'm a father. My child was unplanned. We explored the option of abortion extensively, but in the end we agreed to keep it, and now I have a beautiful baby girl. I'm very happy with our decision. But our decision to NOT have an abortion was based on a few things; My wife and I have a great relationship and can provide a stable home environment, We can provide financially for a child. We are mature, responsible adults. We like children. NOT EVERYONE CAN SAY THAT, and it was great that we had OPTIONS and that planned parenthood explained them to us. My point...I've been in that situation. I have a right to comment.

You say you are a virgin so I know you could not have ever been in this situation. I am prejudice against your ignorance, not your gender.

Yes because if nothing else they were given the chance to live life. And again there is always adoption if the woman doesn't want to take care of the baby.
I know women who have given babies up for adoption. It is very taxing physically to go through pregnancy, and emotionally taxing to give a baby up for adoption after you have become physiologically attatched to it. Adoption is not necessarily a good choice for the mother either, and can cause deep depression. Your "christian morals" are highly unethical.

[ajk]

Abortion is only going to cause a worse depression, then having the child would.

[theicidal maniac]

Abortion is only going to cause a worse depression, then having the child would.

First, thank you for avoiding a response to anything else I said, you wimp.

Second, you are wrong. There is a very complex hormonal cycle that a woman goes through during pregnancy. Also, after giving birth, the hormones that she has been experiencing suddenly drop to nill. This causes depression in many women, even women who KEEP their child, in the form of Post Partum Depression, also known as the Baby Blues. It's a biological condition, and it can be worsened by the lack of a baby, because again, the womans body has spent nine months becoming emotionally and biologically cemented to this new human that is born. Imagine if it isn't even there...there are REAL, physical symptoms that can occur

Where's the backup for YOUR statement?

[ajk]

How do I know? Because I've heard plenty of testimonies from women who have gone through abortions, to know the effects it has on them and those around them. Not to mention my mom too.

[ajk]

It's a biological condition, and it can be worsened by the lack of a baby, because again, the womans body has spent nine months becoming emotionally and biologically cemented to this new human that is born. Imagine if it isn't even there...there are REAL, physical symptoms that can occur


Couldn't you say the same for an abortion itself? The woman may not spend nine months in that case, but probably still a considerable amount of time.

[Ausinus]

How do I know? Because I've heard plenty of testimonies from women who have gone through abortions, to know the effects it has on them and those around them. Not to mention my mom too.

There is a reason for this; because religious fuckwits like you blame these women and make them feel guilty. With your mum, its most likely your dad who has made her feel guilty about it.

[General Septem]

There is a reason for this; because religious fuckwits like you blame these women and make them feel guilty. With your mum, its most likely your dad who has made her feel guilty about it.

They feel guilty for the same reason some other murderers feel guilty.

[theicidal maniac]

There is a reason for this; because religious fuckwits like you blame these women and make them feel guilty. With your mum, its most likely your dad who has made her feel guilty about it.

Ausinus is right, it really does come down to religious people believing in the soul that makes this such an issue. I can't wait until they unveil the first cloned human, and AJK is like, "what!! How can he be ALIVE!?!? If he was never conceived, then the soul didn't enter his body at a conception during love-making, so how did God give him a soul?!?!" Of course, Christians, ever watchful for signs of evil, will most likely label the clone as the Anti-Christ, think it's the end of the world, start world war 3 and kill us all. Could religion BE any more useless?!?

[Ausinus]

Ausinus is right, it really does come down to religious people believing in the soul that makes this such an issue. I can't wait until they unveil the first cloned human, and AJK is like, "what!! How can he be ALIVE!?!? If he was never conceived, then the soul didn't enter his body at a conception during love-making, so how did God give him a soul?!?!" Of course, Christians, ever watchful for signs of evil, will most likely label the clone as the Anti-Christ, think it's the end of the world, start world war 3 and kill us all. Could religion BE any more useless?!?

Oh yes, I didnt tell you. In Australia, control of the state funded rape support centres is being handed to the Catholic Church. :mad: You can blame that cunt Tony Abbot for that.

[ajk]

Good, then the women will get some real counseling.

And again I ask you, wouldn't abortion do the same thing that adoption would do to the woman? (ie: post partam depression or worse)

[Ausinus]

Good, then the women will get some real counseling.

NO ITS NOT GOOD YOU FUCKER! These are state funded institutions, not only that they wouldnt advise women to take abortion pills or have abortions, even if their life was in danger. :mad: In any case, most of the women in Australia are Anglican, they dont need your Catholic drivel.

[ajk]

NO ITS NOT GOOD YOU FUCKER! These are state funded institutions, not only that they wouldnt advise women to take abortion pills or have abortions, even if their life was in danger.

Again I repeat: good. The more innocent life saved the better.

[Ausinus]

Again I repeat: good. The more innocent life saved the better.

1) State Funded This is not good, as it is essentially the government giving taxpayers money to the Church.

2) Women need proper counseling, without religious bias. Most of them are protestant anyway, and dont need your Catholic drivel.

Thank god the Dems, Greens and Labor are protesting this in Parliament. Also, CSIRO is threatening to not provide discounted medicine to these support centres if they become religiously run.:) And they are not known for making idle threats.

[ajk]

1) State Funded This is not good, as it is essentially the government giving taxpayers money to the Church.

The church needs to get it's money from somewhere you know. It doesn't grow on trees.


2) Women need proper counseling, without religious bias. Most of them are protestant anyway, and dont need your Catholic drivel.


They will get the proper counseling, and they will be told the truth that other "health clinics" will not tell them (the after effects of abortion)

[theicidal maniac]

They feel guilty for the same reason some other murderers feel guilty.
Nobody said anything about guilt ya damn fuckrag. We're talking about naturally occuring hormones that occur universally throughout the female of our species during and after pregnancy. It happens regardless of whether you are a secular human or an irrational religious person. And, Post Partum Depression occurs in many women who give nirth and keep their children.

The church needs to get it's money from somewhere you know. It doesn't grow on trees.
You are stupid on so many levels. You need to log off and go hit the books for a few years, get some education, and THEN, AND ONLY THEN, should you attempt discourse with other humans. No government should fund any religion, for obvious reasons. Even Genny would agree on that.

They will get the proper counseling, and they will be told the truth that other "health clinics" will not tell them (the after effects of abortion)
Telling someone to either repent to their made up God or else go to hell is NOT "proper counseling," and it never was.. And what is the "truth...the after effects of abortion?" do tell, professor.

[ajk]

This has nothing to do with repenting, but simply being there to help them through the process when no one else will. As far as the truth to the after effects, I have already explained it before. And again I ask you, doesn't abortion have a hand in depression in the same way post portam depression works?

[theicidal maniac]

This has nothing to do with repenting, but simply being there to help them through the process when no one else will.
When you get an abortion you have a follow-up with a licensed medical professional, not a dumb-ass choir-boy, and they provide you with all the information you could ever ask for, they MAKE SURE you are making an educated decision. You can't just walk in and be like, "KILL IT!"

As far as the truth to the after effects, I have already explained it before.
No, you haven't. You alluded to them, as you always do, but you never said what they were.

And again I ask you, doesn't abortion have a hand in depression in the same way post portam depression works?
No. Because you didn't go through pregnancy.

[who897]

The church needs to get it's money from somewhere you know. It doesn't grow on trees.

They will get the proper counseling, and they will be told the truth that other "health clinics" will not tell them (the after effects of abortion)

The church should only get money from private organizations and private citizens who support the churches ridiculous beliefs.

Are you seriously insinuating that the church would give unbiased, truthful advise to people and that someone who lives their lives through science would be deceitful? Churches are notorious for lies, in fact that's all they do!

On a masturbation note, I just bought an electronic masturbate so stick that in your eye you religious tweeks!

[ajk]

Are you seriously insinuating that the church would give unbiased, truthful advise to people and that someone who lives their lives through science would be deceitful?


Yes I would say that in this particular case.

[theicidal maniac]

This has nothing to do with repenting, but simply being there to help them through the process when no one else will.
When you get an abortion you have a follow-up with a licensed medical professional, not a dumb-ass choir-boy, and they provide you with all the information you could ever ask for, they MAKE SURE you are making an educated decision. You can't just walk in and be like, "KILL IT!"

As far as the truth to the after effects, I have already explained it before.
No, you haven't. You alluded to them, as you always do, but you never said what they were.

And again I ask you, doesn't abortion have a hand in depression in the same way post portam depression works?
No. Because you didn't go through pregnancy.

[ajk]

When you get an abortion you have a follow-up with a licensed medical professional, not a dumb-ass choir-boy, and they provide you with all the information you could ever ask for, they MAKE SURE you are making an educated decision. You can't just walk in and be like, "KILL IT!"

What about the fact that some clinics have been known to get people to pay for fake abortions? A teen could go in there, get a pregnancy test, and even though it says they are not pregnant, they might tell the girl she is pregnant and have her pay for a "abortion". What about that?


No, you haven't. You alluded to them, as you always do, but you never said what they were.

Higher risk of breast cancer for one, hatred of self because of what you did, Infertility, Cervical Laceration, etc. Women are hardly ever told about this sort of thing to my knowledge.


No. Because you didn't go through pregnancy.

Maybe not but you still had that child in your womb. He or she was a part of you, and when it dies a part of the woman dies with it.

[theicidal maniac]

What about the fact that some clinics have been known to get people to pay for fake abortions? A teen could go in there, get a pregnancy test, and even though it says they are not pregnant, they might tell the girl she is pregnant and have her pay for a "abortion". What about that?
Well, son, I don't believe that this IS a "fact." Also, you have to have a pregnancy test and a medical record has to be made in order for you to get an abortion at a clinic, so you're wrong again.

Higher risk of breast cancer for one, The National Academy of Sciences has already exposed this lie...there is ABSOLUTELY NO LINK BETWEEN ABORTION AND BREAST CANCER. You can read "the Best American Science and Nature Writing 2003" for a more in depth discussion about this.

hatred of self because of what you did
But if you believe that abortion is right for you you wouldn't feel this way. Not EVERYONE is a superstitious Christian soldier.

InfertilityDoesn't typically occur, and even if it did, that would kind of fix the problem all together, wouldn't it?

Cervical Laceration That's why Doctors don't use coat hangers, they use a pill and a vacuum, idiot.

Women are hardly ever told about this sort of thing to my knowledge. Well you've never gone to an abortion clinic, so you don't HAVE any "knowledge."

Maybe not but you still had that child in your womb. He or she was a part of you, and when it dies a part of the woman dies with it. But you were asking if Post Partum would occur, and the answer is NO, unless you have a very late term abortion.

[Ausinus]

What about the fact that some clinics have been known to get people to pay for fake abortions? A teen could go in there, get a pregnancy test, and even though it says they are not pregnant, they might tell the girl she is pregnant and have her pay for a "abortion". What about that?

If you suspect you are pregnant, and you dont want the baby, you should do this.

1)Home Pregnancy Test. If positive, then ----->
2)Doctor or Gynaecologist. If positive, then ------->
3)Abortionist.

They should teach teenagers this in sexual education. You should always get a second opinion. Isnt it mandatory to have a prior medical examination anyway?


Higher risk of breast cancer for one, hatred of self because of what you did, Infertility, Cervical Laceration, etc. Women are hardly ever told about this sort of thing to my knowledge.

In my country, they are quite well informed of the risks. An abortion clinic is clean, well kept and comfortable. The abortionist makes sure to keep the woman relaxed and warns her of the risks. (The hatred of self is mostly caused by religious people and pro lifers making her feel guilty.)

In any case, there is evidence to show that abortion, if performed by a licensed professional, is safer than pregnancy.


Maybe not but you still had that child in your womb. He or she was a part of you, and when it dies a part of the woman dies with it.

Yeah, about 23 chromosomes of hers.

[ajk]

The National Academy of Sciences has already exposed this lie...there is ABSOLUTELY NO LINK BETWEEN ABORTION AND BREAST CANCER. You can read "the Best American Science and Nature Writing 2003" for a more in depth discussion about this.

I could care less what they say, you're just drinking the kool aid.


But if you believe that abortion is right for you you wouldn't feel this way. Not EVERYONE is a superstitious Christian soldier.
Doesn't typically occur, and even if it did, that would kind of fix the problem all together, wouldn't it?

What if you wanted to have kids later?


That's why Doctors don't use coat hangers, they use a pill and a vacuum, idiot.

Vaccum could do damage too I'm sure.

Well you've never gone to an abortion clinic, so you don't HAVE any "knowledge."

You may want to read this: http://www.abortioninfo.net/facts/people2_4.shtml

Comes right from the mouths of people who work or have worked in abortion clinics.

[who897]

Yes I would say that in this particular case.


Do you ever feel like you are the stupidest person in the world. I only ask because crazy people don't think that they are crazy, just wondering if stupid people don't realize this either. Do the world a favor and take a swan dive off of the empire state building, you'll be doing mankind justice by not contributing to the gene pool.

[ajk]

But if you believe that abortion is right for you you wouldn't feel this way. Not EVERYONE is a superstitious Christian soldier.


You don't have to be Christian in order to feel the effects, you might not feel them at first, but once you realize what you did you will.

[ajk]

Do you ever feel like you are the stupidest person in the world. I only ask because crazy people don't think that they are crazy, just wondering if stupid people don't realize this either. Do the world a favor and take a swan dive off of the empire state building, you'll be doing mankind justice by not contributing to the gene pool.

I advise you to read the link I posted above. Maybe then you'll believe me on this.

[theicidal maniac]

You don't have to be Christian in order to feel the effects, you might not feel them at first, but once you realize what you did you will.
Is that the only part of your argument that is left for you to cling to, after I shredded it?

sigh...well I'm a complete fuckin moron but at least I've still got jesus
You've got nothing else? Do you finally admit defeat, or should I keep kicking you while your down?

[Ausinus]

This link is just opinions. Furthermore, those opinions dont recommend that women dont have abortions. It astounds me how these people ever applied for these jobs.

[ajk]

How is it opinions? They are there, they would know better then anyone else what goes on and what doesn't go on there.

[theicidal maniac]

You may want to read this: http://www.abortioninfo.net/facts/people2_4.shtml

Comes right from the mouths of people who work or have worked in abortion clinics.

It's an interesting site, and I definitely think that there are things on there that people should be aware of BEFORE they get an abortion. Having said that, there are also a lot of bullshit claims on there. For instance, it says that patients are not presented with options or allowed to see their sonograms, but that just isn't the way things are. There may be some clinics that do not allow this, but there are definitely are clinics that do...I have first hand experience. If you go to a state facility as opposed to a private clinic, of course they are gonna try to make money off you...They're a PRIVATE BUSINESS!! Besides that, if you go in there educated on the matter like my wife and I did, you are gonna be able to sort the bullshit from the truth, and your whole argument is bullshit.

[who897]

I advise you to read the link I posted above. Maybe then you'll believe me on this.

Unlike you I don't accept shit on blind, ignorant faith. Your advise is about as usefull as a wet beer fart.

[ajk]

That is not blind or ignorant. If you read it you'd find out what goes on behind closed doors. The real truth behind "choice".

[ajk]

Besides that, if you go in there educated on the matter like my wife and I did, you are gonna be able to sort the bullshit from the truth, and your whole argument is bullshit.

Maybe you were, but what about those who are not educated, and don't think they have anywhere else to turn, when in fact they do?

[who897]

That is not blind or ignorant. If you read it you'd find out what goes on behind closed doors. The real truth behind "choice".

Yes the truth behind choice....what options? You'd take away folks choices, folks options to make yourself feel better. Your blind, ignorant, and a virgin...how did you make it this far?

[ajk]

They have options, they can keep the baby or have it adopted.

[who897]

They have options, they can keep the baby or have it adopted.

Those are only 2 options, your not giving a woman all the options that she is entitled to. Just for being you, you can either join the military or go to prison..would you agree with those 2 options?

[theicidal maniac]

Maybe you were, but what about those who are not educated, and don't think they have anywhere else to turn, when in fact they do?

It's funny that you say this, but then you want to remove one of the choices of places to turn to...it's like your like your brain is stuttering.

[ajk]

They shouldn't have a "choice" to kill. That's not choice anyway, that's license.

[something]

The abortion discussion that we have on this forum will never come to an end, it's just a question about opinions. The religus guys (ajk, septem) thinks that a fetus is a human, but the atheists (Aus, Thec) will not accept that. If neither sides will be able to accept the other sides ideas, will this just be a discussion that never will end, it will just be a waste of time!:eek:

[ajk]

Not neccessarily. First off someone may change their mind on this, who knows. Second, there may be people just reading this forum, who may have been undecided on this and thanks to our discussion they have decided one way or the other.

Incidentally, I don't think it's human, I KNOW it's a human. Whether it's a clump of a cells, a bunch of formed parts, or whatever it is still human. It's just in a particular stage of development.

[lynnifer21]

I think everyone should go back to the beginning of this thread and see what the orginal subject was.

THEN, stick your hands in your pants and beat it.

[theicidal maniac]

Not neccessarily. First off someone may change their mind on this, who knows. Second, there may be people just reading this forum, who may have been undecided on this and thanks to our discussion they have decided one way or the other.

Incidentally, I don't think it's human, I KNOW it's a human. Whether it's a clump of a cells, a bunch of formed parts, or whatever it is still human. It's just in a particular stage of development.

You don't KNOW it's human, because you can't DEFINE human. You don't know shit about biology, so you can in NO WAY say that you KNOW...just like you can not KNOW that your religious beliefs have any merit. You're a complete tool.

[ajk]

Bullshit I can't. It is human, and any good scientist would tell you the same thing. You don't have to be a biology major to know what is human and what isn't.

[who897]

I think everyone should go back to the beginning of this thread and see what the orginal subject was.

THEN, stick your hands in your pants and beat it.


My hands are constantly in my pants when ever I am at my PC...I have a convenient whole in my sweat pants for that LOL :D

[theicidal maniac]

Bullshit I can't. It is human, and any good scientist would tell you the same thing. You don't have to be a biology major to know what is human and what isn't.

Of course YOU would define a GOOD scientist as a scientist WHO AGREES WITH YOU, RIGHT? That's not how science works. You don't start with an idea and then try to gather evidence to prove it, throwing away anything that you disagree with, that's why you don't know shit about science or "good scientists" and it's also why you can't even define human, so you can't say that a clump of cells is human. Like I said.

[ajk]

No I can define what is Human and I am. You don't like the truth, well that's just too damn bad.

[who897]

You don't like how things are, well that's too fucking god damn bad! The rest of us happen to like it...as long as it's fucking constitutional it's fucking awsome!

[ajk]

No it's not, and I could care less if it's constitutional or not, legal or not. It is still wrong and always will be wrong.

[Ausinus]

No it's not, and I could care less if it's constitutional or not, legal or not. It is still wrong and always will be wrong.

Ajk, why is the law important?

[who897]

Then by all means, leave my county where things are run in a constitutional manner and immigrate to a country more befitting your beliefs. Because your "wrongs" are not "wrongs" they are exactly what they are, laws!

[ajk]

Maybe so, but the act itself is still wrong regardless of what the law may say about it. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right by any means.

[Ausinus]

Maybe so, but the act itself is still wrong regardless of what the law may say about it. Just because it's legal doesn't make it right by any means.

Wrong is subjective, bloody bugger.

[ajk]

No it is not. There is no middle ground on issues such as this. You are either right or wrong.

[Ausinus]

No it is not. There is no middle ground on issues such as this. You are either right or wrong.

Mr Black and White, you know it isnt true. There is no black and white morality, its all grey.

[ajk]

Yes there is. Society may not think so, but that doesn't matter. There are matters such as this, where there is only the right side and the wrong side.

[Ausinus]

Yes there is. Society may not think so, but that doesn't matter. There are matters such as this, where there is only the right side and the wrong side.

What a good little christian soldier you are. Why dont you go live in Iran with the rest of the religious nutcases?

[theicidal maniac]

AJK...are you EVER going to mount an argument with anything more persuasive than your typical "nuh-uh" response? Cuz if "nuh-uh" is all you can say than just shut the fuck up, you're making yourself look even stupider than any of us ever thought you could be. Your position is intellectually bankrupt and morally indefensible.

God is pretend.

Put the glue and the hymn book away, step outside, and join REALITY...I promise it's NOT THAT SCARY!

[ajk]

You just keep thinking that, and see where that leads you.

[theicidal maniac]

hmmm...seem to be doing just fine, actually. Are you suggesting that I will go to hell, cause that's a little judgemental. Would the baby Jesus approve of that sort of behavior?

You know there's no one more blasphemous than a Christian. Christians make assumptions that THEY are good enough, and YOU are going to hell. Isn't that supposed to be your god's decision? You make decisions for your god now? You think your god is PERFECT, but you think YOUR puny mind can understand what he desires from you? You think that if you pray, you can convince him to grant YOUR desires? Such arrogance. Such blasphemy. Such bullshit.

[ajk]

I'm not saying you are or you aren't cause I don't know that obviously, but if you keep rejecting God you very well could go there when you pass on.

And yes I know what He desires from me, and from all of us. He wants all of us to be with Him, to love Him as He loves us and to love one another as ourselves. He wants us to do His will instead of our own, to use the gifts we have been given responsibly, etc.

[theicidal maniac]

I'm not saying you are or you aren't cause I don't know that obviously, but if you keep rejecting God you very well could go there when you pass on.

And yes I know what He desires from me, and from all of us. He wants all of us to be with Him, to love Him as He loves us and to love one another as ourselves. He wants us to do His will instead of our own, to use the gifts we have been given responsibly, etc.

So if he loves us why did he dump us in this shithole and then just take off? No birthday cards, no phone calls. He didn't even come to my baseball games. NOT ONCE! What a crappy father. And Jesus...well...Jesus sucks cocks in hell, but at least he's happy.

[ajk]

No Jesus is with God his Father up in Heaven, watching over us as well.

[theicidal maniac]

No Jesus is with God his Father up in Heaven, watching over us as well.

Can you provide evidence for that?

[ajk]

Don't have to, I know it in my heart to be true.

[Ausinus]

Don't have to, I know it in my heart to be true.

We arent asking for your opinion, we are asking for evidence.

[theicidal maniac]

We arent asking for your opinion, we are asking for evidence.

LOL....seriously...LOL

Really though, we were asking for evidence, so if you are gonna say crazy shit please try to back it up. Ya know...if I came to you and told you that an angel woke me up last night and said that the world will be destroyed in 3 days unless everyone on Earth stops eating carrots I'd obviously be crazy. So how come if I can get a few hundred people to listen to me, then they stop calling it psychosis and start calling it a religion? I mean, AJK, if you were the only person on the earth who believed that the creator of the universe WROTE A BOOK and that he had a kid that died so everyone could worship him and be happy, EVERYONE WOULD SAY YOU ARE A FUCKING NUTJOB...but there are just so damn many of you that you support eachother fantasy...it's a sickness. You have a disease.

[Ausinus]

LOL....seriously...LOL

Really though, we were asking for evidence, so if you are gonna say crazy shit please try to back it up. Ya know...if I came to you and told you that an angel woke me up last night and said that the world will be destroyed in 3 days unless everyone on Earth stops eating carrots I'd obviously be crazy. So how come if I can get a few hundred people to listen to me, then they stop calling it psychosis and start calling it a religion? I mean, AJK, if you were the only person on the earth who believed that the creator of the universe WROTE A BOOK and that he had a kid that died so everyone could worship him and be happy, EVERYONE WOULD SAY YOU ARE A FUCKING NUTJOB...but there are just so damn many of you that you support eachother fantasy...it's a sickness. You have a disease.

What do you reckon a world without the scourge of religion would be like?

[theicidal maniac]

What do you reckon a world without the scourge of religion would be like?

Well...I reckon it'd be a lot closer to being a perfect world

[ajk]

Ha, a perfect world yeah right. If anything it would like we are now, only hundreds of millions of times worse. Religion is the backbone of society. Without it there is a mob rules mentality. That's basically what you got today.

[Ausinus]

Well...I reckon it'd be a lot closer to being a perfect world

Lol. I do too. :D

I cant decide if I want to support Hillary or Obama :confused:

[Ausinus]

Ha, a perfect world yeah right. If anything it would like we are now, only hundreds of millions of times worse. Religion is the backbone of society.

No, I imagine different. No religious intolerance, no discrimination according to gender or orientation, no bullshit theories about creationism. If anything the decline of religion has made society better.


Without it there is a mob rules mentality. That's basically what you got today.

Religion IS a mob mentality, vouz batard. Religion is the anathema to individualism.

[theicidal maniac]

There was a time when CHRISTIANITY ruled the world and almost everyone believed in it and accepted it unquestioningly...

It was called THE DARK AGES

[ajk]

No, I imagine different. No religious intolerance, no discrimination according to gender or orientation, no bullshit theories about creationism. If anything the decline of religion has made society better.


No it's made it worse. Our society has regressed considerably since the 70's in many many ways.

[theicidal maniac]

There was a time when CHRISTIANITY ruled the world and almost everyone believed in it and accepted it unquestioningly...

It was called THE DARK AGESI

[ajk]

I still stand by what I said. We have regressed terribly and it's only getting worse seemingly.

[Ausinus]

I still stand by what I said. We have regressed terribly and it's only getting worse seemingly.

Note that all the big troubles, such as terrorism and religious intolerance, are caused by religion. :gasp:

[ajk]

Define religious intolerance

[Ausinus]

Define religious intolerance

OMG LOOK A FAG! LETS BASH HIM FOR SINNING!

[ajk]

We're not "bashing" the person, but rather the act. Anyone who "bashes" the person as well is wrong for doing so.

[theicidal maniac]

Define religious intolerance

Hey, let's blow up an abortion clinc. Then we'll invade the "Holy Land" after the heathen Jews and the blasphemous Muslims wipe eachother out.

[ajk]

People who do that are wrong as well in doing it, as violence will not solve anything. Rather it only serves to make things worse, and give the good religious people a bad name.

[Ausinus]

Hey, let's blow up an abortion clinc. Then we'll invade the "Holy Land" after the heathen Jews and the blasphemous Muslims wipe eachother out.

Yes, and then the pope will complete the purification of Jerusalem by cleasning the Wailing Wall.

http://images.wikia.com/uncyclopedia/images/1/16/280716.jpg

[Ausinus]

People who do that are wrong as well in doing it, as violence will not solve anything. Rather it only serves to make things worse, and give the good religious people a bad name.

Well its religion that starts it. I have never heard of an Atheist bashing up a homosexual because they are homosexual.

[theicidal maniac]

People who do that are wrong as well in doing it, as violence will not solve anything. Rather it only serves to make things worse, and give the good religious people a bad name.

Unless, of course, God is SPONSORING your violence...like he does throughout the old testament.

[ajk]

What about kids in school who get teased or picked on because of that? That doesn't come from religion.

[Ausinus]

What about kids in school who get teased or picked on because of that? That doesn't come from religion.

The stigma attached to it originates from religion. No duh.

[ajk]

Unless, of course, God is SPONSORING your violence...like he does throughout the old testament.

Well now those people had it coming though (soddom and gamorrah for example). Today it's a little different.

[theicidal maniac]

What about kids in school who get teased or picked on because of that? That doesn't come from religion.

Yeah, it does actually. Our whole idea about homosexuality being wrong comes from the bible and is perpetuated by Christians, who are arguably the most intolerant hate group is the West.

[ajk]

How do you know that's why they are teasing them though? They may be teasing them (and likely are) because they think it's funny.

[Ausinus]

Well now those people had it coming though (soddom and gamorrah for example). Today it's a little different.

I dont remember Gamorrah doing anything bad according to God, I think they were just collateral damage. And what about the Israelites coveting the land of the Phillistines?

[ajk]

Yeah, it does actually. Our whole idea about homosexuality being wrong comes from the bible and is perpetuated by Christians, who are arguably the most intolerant hate group is the West.

A true Christian doesn't hate the person, but only the sin.

[theicidal maniac]

Well now those people had it coming though (soddom and gamorrah for example). Today it's a little different.

So why did they have it coming? Rationalize that. They got killed because they didn't believe in the same God as the people who wrote the story. That was their only crime. Of course it's fake so it doesn't matter, but still...it's fucked up

[Ausinus]

How do you know that's why they are teasing them though? They may be teasing them (and likely are) because they think it's funny.

I say again: all the stigma attached to homosexuality comes from religion. People see how parents and others react to homosexuality, and they begin to adopt their prejeduce.

[ajk]

But can you back that up? Not neccessarily all teasing stems from that, some might but not all.

[Ausinus]

But can you back that up? Not neccessarily all teasing stems from that, some might but not all.

Name one other valid source that it could come from.

[theicidal maniac]

But can you back that up? Not neccessarily all teasing stems from that, some might but not all.

Prejudice is learned. That's a well docemented fact. That IS backing it up.