Pro Lifers

[ohreally]

There is another major misconception amongst Christianity.

Many think they are "Pro-Life" because they do not support Abortion. Well wrong, because if you voted for Bush then you support this war and thus you are not "pro-life." In addition to that, you have people trying to actually kill those who service abortions. How is that pro-life? It isn't - it's just a delusional people claiming they are pro-life whereas they are actually hypocrites and sexist :p

You are however, "Anti-Abortion" if you support/voted for Bush. You're not Pro-Life.

You're "Pro-Choice" if you support choice obviously.

You're "Pro-Death" to some if you actually commit the acts.

Just wanted to clarify - I'm sick of Catholics and such who voted for Bush claiming themselves as "Pro-Life."

[ajk]

Being pro life has nothing to do with the war. The war is an unfortunate thing yes, but I'm still glad Bush is there (as Kerry was pro abortion).

[ohreally]

Being pro life has nothing to do with the war
Obviously you're in complete denial!

Kerry was pro-choice you fool. Not pro-abortion/death

[something]

Christianity just gets wierder and wierder for every day. It was netter in the past when there simply were "Christian", not Protestantic, Catholic, Ortodox, Jehova, Pro Lifers, etc. etc.

[ajk]

Obviously you're in complete denial!

Kerry was pro-choice you fool. Not pro-abortion/death

Same damn thing. You can try and twist the words anyway you want, but at the end of the day Kerry was still advocating abortion. So if anyone is in denial it's you, not me. I know where I stand.

[ohreally]

Same damn thing. You can try and twist the words anyway you want, but at the end of the day Kerry was still advocating abortion. So if anyone is in denial it's you, not me. I know where I stand.
You're the one twisting words fuck face.

It's one thing to have a choice, and one thing to actually fucking do it.

Your definition of choice is death - yeah you make a lot of fucking sense. That's twisting definitions bitch.

[ajk]

Well you're still allowing it to happen no? How is that not pro death?

[ohreally]

Well you're still allowing it to happen no? How is that not pro death?
Because we're not enforcing one to abort their baby - that's why.

Let me explain yo

Anti-Abortion: Disallow abortion no matter what.

Pro Choice: Gives the person the choice (but the latest legislated abortion laws apply of course).

Pro Death: Forces an abortion.

So there you have it. It's not exactly pro death because it's not exactly promoting death or preventing it. So don't try to twist definitions like that because there's a big difference between the two.

[ajk]

But again you are still allowing to happen. You can't be pro choice without being pro abortion too.

[ohreally]

But again you are still allowing to happen. You can't be pro choice without being pro abortion too.
See that's where you wrong, because Pro Choice isn't pro life or pro abortion, it's a middle ground that gives people the choice. So don't label pro choicers as only pro abortion.

[ajk]

See that's where you wrong, because Pro Choice isn't pro life or pro abortion, it's a middle ground that gives people the choice. So don't label pro choicers as only pro abortion.

I'm not, but my point is you can't have one without the other. If you're pro choice, you are also pro abortion.

[ohreally]

I'm not, but my point is you can't have one without the other. If you're pro choice, you are also pro abortion.
Why do you keep repeating yourself? Maybe because you're wrong and can't give think about what I just said.

Pro choice cannot be any really - it just gives the choice. You're not even pro-life so don't describe yourself that way. You're likely Anti-Abortion since you probably support \/\/ and his bogus \/\/ar.

Anti-Abortion: Forces people to give birth.

Pro-Choice: Gives you the choice to give birth, or the choice not to.

Pro-Death: Forces people to abort babies.

I hardly think Pro-Choice is only Pro Death, because people can still have babies you twit.

[ajk]

Why do you keep repeating yourself? Maybe because you're wrong and can't give think about what I just said.

Because you keep missing the point.




I hardly think Pro-Choice is only Pro Death, because people can still have babies you twit.

I'm not saying it is, but you still have no problems with it happening. Therefore you are Pro Death too. As I said you cannot have one without the other.

[ohreally]

Because you keep missing the point.

Wrong - you refuse to read what I said and put some thought into it.

Pro-Choice isn't promoting life or death exclusively, it's giving the choice. The choice - not exclusively saying that you must abort your child!

[ajk]

Wrong - you refuse to read what I said and put some thought into it.

I could say the same thing about you


Pro-Choice isn't promoting life or death exclusively, it's giving the choice. The choice - not exclusively saying that you must abort your child!

Again, I'm not saying it promotes one or the other. What I'm saying is, you can't be pro choice without being pro abortion at the very same time. You may think it's the woman's choice, but the fact is you still have no problems with abortion happening.

[ohreally]

I could say the same thing about you
See, again you refuse to answer. You weasel out as usual like creepy sexist you are. Well at least I know what your all about. You're a closed minded person, who is told how to think - which means you have no personality or uniqueness. You don't respect women, nor have consideration of feelings of others. You claim to know all kinds of things about sex and believe we're all ignorant, yet you're a virgin. You claim you're pro life, yet you must have supported \/\/, which means you're anti-abortion, but pro-war - which is not pro life no matter what you would like to say. You probably would go so far to blow up an abortion clinic - not pro life. You're honestly a two faced dirt-bag that hates Women. You sir, are the spit in society.

[who897]

Does anyone ever get sick of semantics? Yes, play your little games there children and run along.

[Ausinus]

Well technically pro lifers who say that abortion even in the event tha the mother will die is wrong are not pro life.

FUCK PRO LIFERS

[freakazoid]

Obviously you're in complete denial!

Kerry was pro-choice you fool. Not pro-abortion/death
RE: "Kerry was pro-choice you fool. Not pro-abortion/death"

"Pro-abortion/death" or "pro-choice." For the human being that has been aborted and is dead...there is no difference. It's exactly the same thing.

[ajk]

Well technically pro lifers who say that abortion even in the event tha the mother will die is wrong are not pro life.


No, pro life means that you want every human being an oppturnity to live in this world. That includes the unborn child. If the mother has to die in order for that child in the womb to live, as unfortunate as thay may be, then so be it.

[yea_thats_right1]

do you ever listen to what your saying??? holy shit

[Ausinus]

No, pro life means that you want every human being an oppturnity to live in this world. That includes the unborn child. If the mother has to die in order for that child in the womb to live, as unfortunate as thay may be, then so be it.

Well here is my offical statement.

FUCK YOU


Now that is eschatological irresponsibiliy. Putting the life of an unborn foetus above that of a woman's. Its stupid, illogical and unfair. The mother is a living, breathing, thinking human being who should be valued. I dont give a fuck about the foetus if the woman is going to die.

[ajk]

I'm not saying it's sad if that happens, of course it is. But in the end the result of it all, that being a new life being brought into the world, it has served the greater good.

[Ausinus]

I'm not saying it's sad if that happens, of course it is. But in the end the result of it all, that being a new life being brought into the world, it has served the greater good.

Fucking christians. You think you know better than everyone else because you believe in your sky god. Well here is a news flash

I DONT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ANY "GREATER GOOD" YOU MIGHT POSTULATE THERE IS.

The greater good is living a good life the way YOU want to, as long as it does not detriment another person.

[ajk]

Fucking christians. You think you know better than everyone else because you believe in your sky god. Well here is a news flash

I DONT GIVE A FUCK ABOUT ANY "GREATER GOOD" YOU MIGHT POSTULATE THERE IS.

The greater good is living a good life the way YOU want to, as long as it does not detriment another person.

Except abortion does involve detriment to another person. That "fetus" is still a person too.

[Ausinus]

Except abortion does involve detriment to another person. That "fetus" is still a person too.

Ehem. It is not a "person", a person has the ability to reason and communicate. Foeti do neither.

[ajk]

Doesn't matter. Right at the moment of conception, that is a human life in the womb. You may not like it, but I don't give a damn how you feel about it. It is what it is no matter what you say.

[Ausinus]

Doesn't matter. Right at the moment of conception, that is a human life in the womb. You may not like it, but I don't give a damn how you feel about it. It is what it is no matter what you say.

It may be "human", but it isnt a "person".

Perhaps you should go and read Theicidal's argument on the "Just Curious" thread.

[ajk]

Human and person really is the same thing. You can't be just one. You're either both or neither.

[Ausinus]

Human and person really is the same thing. You can't be just one. You're either both or neither.

Well, in that case foeti are not human then are they?

[ajk]

No they are.

[something]

No they are.

No they're not!

[yea_thats_right1]

Human and person really is the same thing. You can't be just one. You're either both or neither.

heres a question... what if a woman was raped by the devil (much as mary was by "god") and got pregnant with his child (that son of satan in the flesh) woiuld you condone an abortion there? or force her to give birth to someone who would enslave and klill our people?

[General Septem]

Pro-life is one who values human life, not just someone who is against abortion. Abortion is just one of the things that threaten human life.

I'm actually pro-life and pro-choice. The two are entirely unrelated. One means you value human life, and the other means you value human choice, and the former is more accurately described as Libertarian.

Whether or not abortion should be a woman's choice has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it's wrong. If they don't want to make it illegal, fine. I don't really give a fuck. I just want an end put to all of the lies spread about abortion to make people think there's nothing wrong with it, because there is.

You call us anti-woman, but in reality, we're just trying to make women realize what exactly it is they'd be doing if they had an abortion. Instead of reacting emotionally to everything, you could think about the situation logically and consider all the ifs. Stop thinking of fetuses as nothing. They're human beings. Killing someone is not a viable solution to any other situation (unless they willfully pose a threat and it's the only way to protect yourself), so why should abortion be any different?

[General Septem]

heres a question... what if a woman was raped by the devil (much as mary was by "god") and got pregnant with his child (that son of satan in the flesh) woiuld you condone an abortion there? or force her to give birth to someone who would enslave and klill our people?

No, but perhaps they could implant a bomb under the child's skin or something, in case he turns into an asshole. Hell, for all we'd know, anything we do could be an implementation of Satan's plan. Satan wouldn't come into this world to enslave and kill us. He would come into this world to poison our souls. By aborting his supposed child, we'd just be giving in to his own plan, and in fact the only way to defeat him is through love.

But it doesn't really matter, because Satan is incapable of having children of his own; he is incapable of creating anything, incapable of love, and incapable of anything good, which the creation of life is.

Mary wasn't "raped". The connection between her and the Holy Spirit was not physical. And if you read the passage it was obviously consensual anyway.

[something]

Pro-life is one who values human life, not just someone who is against abortion. Abortion is just one of the things that threaten human life.

I'm actually pro-life and pro-choice. The two are entirely unrelated. One means you value human life, and the other means you value human choice, and the former is more accurately described as Libertarian.

Whether or not abortion should be a woman's choice has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not it's wrong. If they don't want to make it illegal, fine. I don't really give a fuck. I just want an end put to all of the lies spread about abortion to make people think there's nothing wrong with it, because there is.

You call us anti-woman, but in reality, we're just trying to make women realize what exactly it is they'd be doing if they had an abortion. Instead of reacting emotionally to everything, you could think about the situation logically and consider all the ifs. Stop thinking of fetuses as nothing. They're human beings. Killing someone is not a viable solution to any other situation (unless they willfully pose a threat and it's the only way to protect yourself), so why should abortion be any different?

Omfg, how many times do I have to say this? It is not a human being!!!:mad:
It's a piece of meat and sperm or wahtever, that maybe willl turn into a human being, but it isn't a human being. Why do you keep saying that? I would understand if you were sying that a fetus is going to turn in to a human being, but not that it is!:mad: God dammit.

[General Septem]

Omfg, how many times do I have to say this? It is not a human being!!!:mad:
It's a piece of meat and sperm or wahtever, that maybe willl turn into a human being, but it isn't a human being. Why do you keep saying that? I would understand if you were sying that a fetus is going to turn in to a human being, but not that it is!:mad: God dammit.

Yes it motherfucking is. We do not change species halfway through our life. Our DNA does not change. The only difference is that we grow limbs and organs and whatnot. That doesn't mean that without all our limbs we aren't fully human, it just means we aren't finished growing yet, which we never are. Maybe a fetus doesn't have arms, but infants aren't born with teeth or much hair either. Are they not human? Are amputees not human? That's what I meant about it not being our opposable thumbs that make us human. It was a sarcastic reference to how ignorant choice-before-lifers claim that fetuses aren't human because they don't have any arms or some other incredibly stupid argument.

[beelzebub]

Yes it motherfucking is. We do not change species halfway through our life. Our DNA does not change. The only difference is that we grow limbs and organs and whatnot.

GS - I think you are missing the point. The definition for a human being (emphasis on the word being) can be relative.

The zygote is human but is it a being? I can see how someone can disagree.

[theicidal maniac]

I don't know how many times I'll have to say this, but if you aren't pro-choice then you are ANTI-CHOICE. You either think people should have a choice or you do not think people should have a choice.

Pro-Life is a ludicrous twist of words, something both religious people and republicans are famous for doing. Abortion is not the only "life or death" issue in the world. You can be FOR LIFE and still support abortion, and you can be against abortion but still support a terrorist like G.W. Bush.

But it all comes down to choice. You think the only people who should have choice are people who will make the choices that you want them to make. I don't care what phantom you call God, in pretty much any religion it is wrong to take choice away from people. So why are religious people always tied to "pro-life"...it's really anti-choice.

[ajk]

And in response to that, I again say that if you are pro choice, you are also pro abortion. Furthermore, if you are truly pro life you would value the lives of each and every one of us on this earth both born and unborn, and would be willing to do anything you can to protect them.

[theicidal maniac]

And in response to that, I again say that if you are pro choice, you are also pro abortion. Furthermore, if you are truly pro life you would value the lives of each and every one of us on this earth both born and unborn, and would be willing to do anything you can to protect them.

Including finally letting go of your violent faith?

[who897]

I say we put their "god" on trial for all the crimes against humanity that "it" has committed. Everyone who dies is a direct result of "it's" killing of that human.

[General Septem]

GS - I think you are missing the point. The definition for a human being (emphasis on the word being) can be relative.

The zygote is human but is it a being? I can see how someone can disagree.

Well we're splitting hairs here. A zygote is still human. And yes it is a being in that it exists. Again, the right to life is a human right, not a personal or human "being" right.

[theicidal maniac]

Well we're splitting hairs here. A zygote is still human. And yes it is a being in that it exists. Again, the right to life is a human right, not a personal or human "being" right.

A rock "EXISTS" And a human FINGERNAIL is human in every way that you could call a zygote human. And when you start talking about "rights" you are really talking about arbitrary assignments humans have agreed to afford eachother, that's why they aren't consistent accross cultures and times, and it's evidence that it's a man-made concept; there is no such thing as a "GOD-GIVEN RIGHT"

[ajk]

Yes there is. God gave us all life to begin with, so it's through him that our right to life comes from to begin with.

[Ausinus]

Yes there is. God gave us all life to begin with, so it's through him that our right to life comes from to begin with.

YA WRONG! There is no evidence to suppose that God gave us life to begin with. Read the Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins.

[something]

YA WRONG! There is no evidence to suppose that God gave us life to begin with. Read the Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins.

Oh, c'mon, hes never going to do that.:D

[TheAvenger]

Abortion = death

Pro lifers = against death

Pro-lifers = against abortion



Speaking of pro-lifers, what amazes me is that alot of alleged "pro-life" activists also support war.
These people are bass ackwards.

Pro life = against death

war = death

True Pro lifers = against war

Some just dont get the equation. You cannot say that you are pro-life while exclaiming "send in the Army to kill the f***ers!" about someone you detest.

This is as stupid as a hunter claiming to be "Pro-life". Guess again, Billy Bob.
If you are pro-life, YOU DONT KILL SOMEONE!
Hunters kill. Thus hunters are pro death and cannot be pro-life until they stop killing and walk the walk.

You are either pro-life or you arent.

You can be anti-abortion and pro war, but you cant be both and be pro-life.
You can be anti-abortion and pro hunting, but you cannot be both and be pro-life.

If you support the killing of someone, you are not pro-life anymore so than OJ Simpson or Ted Nugent are.

[ajk]

Speaking of pro-lifers, what amazes me is that alot of alleged "pro-life" activists also support war.


I understand your point here, but what if the reason for going to war is a just one (ie: WW 2 for instance)?



This is as stupid as a hunter claiming to be "Pro-life". Guess again, Billy Bob.
If you are pro-life, YOU DONT KILL SOMEONE!
Hunters kill. Thus hunters are pro death and cannot be pro-life until they stop killing and walk the walk.

I disagree here. It's one thing to hunt just because (aka Hunting for the sport of it), but if you intend to eat whatever you kill, I don't see anything wrong with it. Animals are on a different plane in terms of the whole life/death issue really. They don't just exist to be our friends, though some serve that purpose (dogs, cats), they also exist to be food for us. So they serve two different purposes.

[something]

I guess I'm not pro-life, because i belive in fishing (a kind of hunting) for the sport, and I'm for abortion. But I'm against killing a human being whatsoever, unless it's absolutely necessery in self defence.

[ajk]

Fishing is in a class of it's own I think in terms of hunting. Reason being if you fish just to fish, and throw back whatever you catch (which I assume that's what you do), the fish is generally unharmed.

Incidentally, if you're against killing a human being for any reason whatsoever (outside of self defense), then you should be against abortion too, since abortion kills human beings too.

[something]

Fishing is in a class of it's own I think in terms of hunting. Reason being if you fish just to fish, and throw back whatever you catch (which I assume that's what you do), the fish is generally unharmed.

Incidentally, if you're against killing a human being for any reason whatsoever (outside of self defense), then you should be against abortion too, since abortion kills human beings too.

I said I obviusly not were a pro-lifer, because I'm against abortion, but as you know, I don't concider that as killing a human being.


BTW when I fish I eat the fish, because I like eating fish that you cooked on your own over a open fire in te woods.

[Ausinus]

Fishing is in a class of it's own I think in terms of hunting. Reason being if you fish just to fish, and throw back whatever you catch (which I assume that's what you do), the fish is generally unharmed.

Incidentally, if you're against killing a human being for any reason whatsoever (outside of self defense), then you should be against abortion too, since abortion kills human beings too.

No, he is against the killing of other people.

[ajk]

A baby or "fetus" in the womb IS another person. You can say it's not all you want, but you will always be wrong.

[Ausinus]

A baby or "fetus" in the womb IS another person. You can say it's not all you want, but you will always be wrong.

No, I wont always be wrong, because for the simple fact that at this point in time, I am right. A foetus is not a person, a person is capable of communicationg and cognition, so therefore, foeti before a certain time are not people.

[ajk]

No, I wont always be wrong, because for the simple fact that at this point in time, I am right. A foetus is not a person, a person is capable of communicationg and cognition, so therefore, foeti before a certain time are not people.

As I said you can try and say it's not all you want, but you will still be wrong, and I will always be right on this. Doesn't matter what you say about it. Life begins at conception and ends at the time of the person's death.

[Ausinus]

As I said you can try and say it's not all you want, but you will still be wrong, and I will always be right on this. No matter what you might say about it.

So far you havent given any evidence to support your idea that foeti are people.

[ajk]

I have tried, but you people won't bother to listen to me. A fetus is a person because I said it has it's own DNA, unique to it's body and it's body alone, it grows and develops in the womb just like anyone who has already been born does, what more evidence do you want?

[Ausinus]

I have tried, but you people won't bother to listen to me. A fetus is a person because I said it has it's own DNA, unique to it's body and it's body alone, it grows and develops in the womb just like anyone who has already been born does, what more evidence do you want?

So does that make every unique mammal a person? Does it make some primates with more DNA in common with grown humans than foeti human? Does it also make every growing organism a person too?

I repeat: you have not provided any evidence to show that a foetus before a certain time is a person.

[ajk]

No because they also have unique characteristics that make them whatever animal or mammal they are also.

[Ausinus]

No because they also have unique characteristics that make them whatever animal or mammal they are also.

An example of which would be?

[ajk]

Growing more then 2 legs, more then 2 hands, etc.

[Ausinus]

Growing more then 2 legs, more then 2 hands, etc.

Have you ever seen the skeletal structure of say, a cat, compared to a human? They are virtually the same. In foetal form, there is no difference.

[ICU]

Jesus Christ, a Son of God, was sent to earth to conquer sin. We as individuals will never be without sin, but we can try to be like Jesus was. We could try to live our lives the way He lived his. He is the greatest example and a sacrifice from God, for humanity. It doesn't get any simpler than this.

Live your lives as Jesus lived his, abide in the rules which are set by God in the Word of God. Believe in Jesus, the only one that gave His life up for us, the children of God.

God Bless You All... :)

[yea_thats_right1]

Jesus Christ, a Son of God, was sent to earth to conquer sin. We as individuals will never be without sin, but we can try to be like Jesus was. We could try to live our lives the way He lived his. He is the greatest example and a sacrifice from God, for humanity. It doesn't get any simpler than this.

Live your lives as Jesus lived his, abide in the rules which are set by God in the Word of God. Believe in Jesus, the only one that gave His life up for us, the children of God.

God Bless You All... :)


he gave up his life for us? they beat the shit out of him and nailed him to the cross.. thats hardly volintary... and if he could have done something about it then he commited suicide.

[ajk]

He chose to let it happen, he could have stopped it had he wanted to do so beforehand. But he didn't.

[ICU]

they definately did that. and this is how he conquered them. he loved them eventhough they hated him and. for that he is my way!! :)

[Ausinus]

they definately did that. and this is how he conquered them. he loved them eventhough they hated him and. for that he is my way!! :)

Blah, blah, blah. It was suicide, if it even really happened/

[theicidal maniac]

Wow...I can't believe what some people believe man. So, like, the stuff I believe in can be proved. The stuff I don't cannot be. Prove that Christ died for my sins and I'll believe you. Otherwise I'll continue to shout Jesus-titty-fucking-Christ with glee.

[ICU]

Blah, blah, blah. It was suicide, if it even really happened/

hehehe, so what do you believe in Ausinus? Do you think you are just a body without a soul? hehehe.. I'm interested to know..

God Bless.

[General Septem]

Blah, blah, blah. It was suicide, if it even really happened/

It wasn't suicide. The only way Jesus could've saved Himself was to lie about His true nature, and that would've been perjury.

[theicidal maniac]

hehehe, so what do you believe in Ausinus? Do you think you are just a body without a soul? hehehe.. I'm interested to know..

God Bless.

That would be the only position that makes sense, since there has never been an observable manifestation of the SOUL. There is no reason to believe in the soul except for myth. There is not a single scrap of scientific evidence for it, and the only "evidence" that YOU can produce is hear-say.

I love it when people think they will die and still be themselves somehow, even though every memory and every instinct you have, everything that makes you YOU is a function of the brain. Without your brain, you have no memories, no instincts, no way to convey, recall, process or transfer thoughts. No ability to predict. No aptitude for language. Somehow you believe that the contents of your brain will survive your brain, even though they are specific processes OF the brain? Ludicrous. It's like believing that you can take the memory and drives out of your computer, smash them with a hammer, run over them with a magnet, melt them, and that the information on them will be somehow magically released into the universe, to live happily ever after.

[ICU]

That would be the only position that makes sense, since there has never been an observable manifestation of the SOUL. There is no reason to believe in the soul except for myth. There is not a single scrap of scientific evidence for it, and the only "evidence" that YOU can produce is hear-say.

I love it when people think they will die and still be themselves somehow, even though every memory and every instinct you have, everything that makes you YOU is a function of the brain. Without your brain, you have no memories, no instincts, no way to convey, recall, process or transfer thoughts. No ability to predict. No aptitude for language. Somehow you believe that the contents of your brain will survive your brain, even though they are specific processes OF the brain? Ludicrous. It's like believing that you can take the memory and drives out of your computer, smash them with a hammer, run over them with a magnet, melt them, and that the information on them will be somehow magically released into the universe, to live happily ever after.


Interesting concept.

Have you ever seen the wind? I haven't, yet I know it exists.

God Bless. :)

[ajk]

I love it when people think they will die and still be themselves somehow, even though every memory and every instinct you have, everything that makes you YOU is a function of the brain. Without your brain, you have no memories, no instincts, no way to convey, recall, process or transfer thoughts. No ability to predict. No aptitude for language. Somehow you believe that the contents of your brain will survive your brain, even though they are specific processes OF the brain? Ludicrous. It's like believing that you can take the memory and drives out of your computer, smash them with a hammer, run over them with a magnet, melt them, and that the information on them will be somehow magically released into the universe, to live happily ever after.

Keep in mind that God can do what would seem to be the impossible.

[something]

Keep in mind that God can do what would seem to be the impossible.

If he can do so are they obviusly possible.

[theicidal maniac]

Interesting concept.

Have you ever seen the wind? I haven't, yet I know it exists.

God Bless. :)

We have more senses than sight.

I have sight, hearing, taste, smell and touch. The wind touches me and I hear it brush across my ear, and can see it blow leaves across the ground as it carries the smell of a nearby cooked meal to me. That is how I know it is there.


Keep in mind that God can do what would seem to be the impossible.

Oh I sure will buddy. I sure will.

[chiMaera]

Wrong - you refuse to read what I said and put some thought into it.

Pro-Choice isn't promoting life or death exclusively, it's giving the choice. The choice - not exclusively saying that you must abort your child!

Coming in late here, but oh, really what are you saying?!!
Honestly, pro abortion does not mean 'abort every foetus in sight!' nobody thinks that! it means allow abortion if that is the chosen option by the concerned party/person. seriously. it does not mean the same as pro death which makes no sense to anyone!

[chiMaera]

Except abortion does involve detriment to another person. That "fetus" is still a person too.

the foetus is not a person.

is the sperm a person?

once the sperm fertilises the egg, does it have the right to vote?
I'd say no.

the foetus is a potential person, as is the 'glint in the milkman's eye'! (Blackadder)

there are no clear boundaries for much of life. attempting to impose them with conviction is stupid and in some cases irresponsible. to abort a foetus at the earliest knowledge of pregnancy in embryolic stages, clearly differs morally from aborting a reconisable baby, due for birth.

Abortion is a very complicated issue which is not taken lightly by most concerned. there are many implications. for example, is the embryo likely to be cared for if it comes to term? (see 'Trainspotting' for possible reasons why not)

I would say only that if abortion is the chosen option, allow it to happen as early as possible.

[chiMaera]

Interesting concept.

Have you ever seen the wind? I haven't, yet I know it exists.

God Bless. :)

The wind is scientifically very well documented and predicted according to cold/warm fronts, air pressure etc. Michael fish or even better Jo Blythe! reporting the weather. it really is a poor analogy for god.

[MrJim]

... everything that makes you YOU is a function of the brain. Without your brain, you have no memories, no instincts, no way to convey, recall, process or transfer thoughts. No ability to predict. No aptitude for language. Somehow you believe that the contents of your brain will survive your brain, even though they are specific processes OF the brain? Ludicrous. It's like believing that you can take the memory and drives out of your computer, smash them with a hammer, run over them with a magnet, melt them, and that the information on them will be somehow magically released into the universe, to live happily ever after.

Um, I think it's true that all of our cells are replaced by new ones about every... 6 years or so... so we've more or less "died" every 6 years... so a memory coming back that hasn't been visited in over 6 years seems a little odd to me... I think but I'm not sure that brain cells do not get replaced at all when they die... making it all the more odd that someone can remember a dead memory.

[theicidal maniac]

Um, I think it's true that all of our cells are replaced by new ones about every... 6 years or so... so we've more or less "died" every 6 years... so a memory coming back that hasn't been visited in over 6 years seems a little odd to me... I think but I'm not sure that brain cells do not get replaced at all when they die... making it all the more odd that someone can remember a dead memory.

The cells die, but the structures they form remain the same, barring damaged genetic information or cancer. A neuron may be replaced, but the mental pathway that it connects is the same. Memories aren't really tangible pieces of the brain, they are reactions to the flow of energy through specific biochemical pathways.

The cells in your muscles die, too, but your biceps don't start over from scratch. They are just replaced, piece by piece, like an American car.

[something]

The cells die, but the structures they form remain the same, barring damaged genetic information or cancer. A neuron may be replaced, but the mental pathway that it connects is the same. Memories aren't really tangible pieces of the brain, they are reactions to the flow of energy through specific biochemical pathways.

The cells in your muscles die, too, but your biceps don't start over from scratch. They are just replaced, piece by piece, like an American car.

Not for ever. Sooner or later does the replacing start to go slower and in the end we die.

[conspiracy]

That would be the only position that makes sense, since there has never been an observable manifestation of the SOUL. There is no reason to believe in the soul except for myth. There is not a single scrap of scientific evidence for it, and the only "evidence" that YOU can produce is hear-say.

I love it when people think they will die and still be themselves somehow, even though every memory and every instinct you have, everything that makes you YOU is a function of the brain. Without your brain, you have no memories, no instincts, no way to convey, recall, process or transfer thoughts. No ability to predict. No aptitude for language. Somehow you believe that the contents of your brain will survive your brain, even though they are specific processes OF the brain? Ludicrous. It's like believing that you can take the memory and drives out of your computer, smash them with a hammer, run over them with a magnet, melt them, and that the information on them will be somehow magically released into the universe, to live happily ever after.

With that said ,I'm curious to hear your position on the supernatural and ghosts. Are they bullshit? And if not what are they? Or do they just not exist..

[MrJim]

With that said ,I'm curious to hear your position on the supernatural and ghosts. Are they bullshit? And if not what are they? Or do they just not exist..

Do you really even have to ask him for that answer? He probably started burning bibles by the age of 3.

[theicidal maniac]

With that said ,I'm curious to hear your position on the supernatural and ghosts. Are they bullshit? And if not what are they? Or do they just not exist..

Ph man...I've posted about that a few times already. But in a nutshell, your personality can't leave your body because it is a PART of the biochemical pathways of your body. Every part of your personality, memories, instincts, logical function, it all exists as part of or THROUGH the brain. The idea that the brain rots but the information lives on magically and COMPLETELY UNDETECTABLE is patently flawed and fallacious.

As far as the supernatural goes, as I have said many times you should never accept a supernatural explanation where a natural one will suffice. If you have an unexplained event, then hypotheses form. People try to explain the problem and often resort to supernatural explanations. For some reason they are unwilling to let go of those explanations even after a reasonable, logical, rational, PROVABLE explanation takes the stage. If you get sick, why assume that you are posessed by beasties when pathogenic biology explains the sickness much better, and can be seen to be true?

As far as ghosts go, I have had a few experiences in my life that I have a great deal of trouble trying to explain naturally. That does not mean that there is no natural explanation but I don't know the answers. Crazy shit. Crazy, crazy shit has happened to me. But I still don't believe that it was SUPER-natural, just beyond my current mental comprehension (I just had massive Deja Vu right now). And there is absolutely NO solid scientific evidence to prove the existence of ghosts. In fact, all scientific evidence points to the idea that there are NO GHOSTS:

"The Committee for Skeptical Inquiry (CSI), formerly known as the Committee for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (CSICOP) is a U.S. nonprofit organization whose stated purpose is to "encourage the critical investigation of paranormal and fringe-science claims from a responsible, scientific point of view and disseminate factual information about the results of such inquiries to the scientific community and the public."[1] CSI was founded in 1976 by Paul Kurtz to counter what he regarded as an uncritical acceptance of, and support for, paranormal claims by both the media and society in general. Its philosophical position is one of scientific skepticism. CSI's fellows have included many notable scientists, philosophers, educators, authors, and celebrities." This is Wiki's entry, but all of this is stuff I know because I'm a fan; I am a subscriber of Paul Kurtz magazine, "Free Inquiry" and their podcast "Point of Inquiry." Some really great stuff.

Nevertheless, it has always been a dream of mine to travel cross-country and stay in "haunted" houses and hotels, and I've been compiling a mental list. I WOULD LOVE TO SEE A GHOST!!! I would love to believe that there is life after death, and seeing a disembodied human would solidify that for me. Unfortunately, I say with confidence that I do not believe I will have a ghost experience, because I don't believe in them.

Do you really even have to ask him for that answer? He probably started burning bibles by the age of 3.
I don't burn Bibles, because I believe it is unethical to burn books, and destroy information, even trash like that. Education is the key. Anyone who is educated on the facts of the natural world BEFORE they are exposed to the idea of specific supernatural phenomenon should be able to see the Bible for what it is, a relic of primitive human culture.

[starry123nights]

As far as ghosts go, I have had a few experiences in my life that I have a great deal of trouble trying to explain naturally. That does not mean that there is no natural explanation but I don't know the answers. Crazy shit. Crazy, crazy shit has happened to me. But I still don't believe that it was SUPER-natural, just beyond my current mental comprehension (I just had massive Deja Vu right now). And there is absolutely NO solid scientific evidence to prove the existence of ghosts. In fact, all scientific evidence points to the idea that there are NO GHOSTS:
Unfortunately, I say with confidence that I do not believe I will have a ghost experience, because I don't believe in them.
I don't burn Bibles, because I believe it is unethical to burn books, and destroy information, even trash like that. Education is the key. Anyone who is educated on the facts of the natural world BEFORE they are exposed to the idea of specific supernatural phenomenon should be able to see the Bible for what it is, a relic of primitive human culture.

No proof there are ghosts. And no proof there aren't ghost. Your experience you describe here almost sounds HAUNTING to you.

This is very probable. You have to be open to something to experience it. Maybe when you were younger and the previous crazy shit happened because you were more open to it.

If you child came to you when she was older and wanted to become a believer in some other form of religion( I say that lightly, for a lack of a better word right now). Would you allow her to have her own experience or would push your facts on her?

I have three grown children. Though I was never a christian(whatever), when my children became teenagers each one of them choose to have a religion. I did nothing for it or agaisnt it. I always let them make their own decisions on what they did in life as long as it didn't hurt them or others. Not to mention that being a teenager can be pretty fucked up sometimes. And seeking their religion was far better then the other things they could have been doing.

To each their own.

[MrJim]

No proof there are ghosts. And no proof there aren't ghost. Your experience you describe here almost sounds HAUNTING to you....

No proof there is a god. No proof there isn't a god.
No proof there are ghosts. And no proof there aren't ghosts.

Time for a little joke:

How many atheists does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer:None, they found a light bulb buried in the sand and came to the conclusion that light bulbs change themselves. :p

[theicidal maniac]

No proof there are ghosts. And no proof there aren't ghost.
No proof that the monster your child believes to be in the closet ISN'T REALLY THERE! So if there is no proof that it isn't there, why are you not tossing lit torches in the closet or boarding it shut? There is no proof that the boogeyman ISN'T under her bed, do you build booby traps around the bed to catch him? If you have no proof that something exists, you have no reason to believe in it. If you have no proof that something does not exist, you still have nothing, and therefore no reason to believe it exists. You can make up ANYTHING you want. ANYTHING. Just make it up. Play make believe. Now, that thing that you just made up, there is no proof that that thing doesn't really exist. So does it then exist? The answer is no.


Your experience you describe here almost sounds HAUNTING to you. This is very probable. You have to be open to something to experience it. Maybe when you were younger and the previous crazy shit happened because you were more open to it.

What does that tell you, if you can't see it unless you already believe in it, and then when you do experience it, it is only on an emotional level?? What does that tell you? It tells me it is all mental. I can tell you that people who believe in Hinduism have claimed to have seen their gods. So is that possible in YOUR world? Cuz their gods (avatars of Krishna, actually) are part animal. So do you believe the guy who says he saw God and that God had an elephants head? Why not?


If you child came to you when she was older and wanted to become a believer in some other form of religion( I say that lightly, for a lack of a better word right now). Would you allow her to have her own experience or would push your facts on her?

Would I push my FACTS on her??? LOL.....ROTFLMFAO. Oh god, that was cute, thanks. Yeah, seriously, FACTS are very dangerous. We wouldn't want our children getting ahold of THOSE!!! Dangerous stuff INDEED! I will teach my daughter about the religions when she is young. She will learn about them comparitively, at the same time she learns about greek mythology she will be learning about Roman Catholic mythology, and Hindu mythology, and Mormon mythology.


I have three grown children. Though I was never a christian(whatever), when my children became teenagers each one of them choose to have a religion. I did nothing for it or agaisnt it. I always let them make their own decisions on what they did in life as long as it didn't hurt them or others. Not to mention that being a teenager can be pretty fucked up sometimes. And seeking their religion was far better then the other things they could have been doing.

Unless of course they join the wrong religion and can't go to heaven. Or their religion hates other religions and blows people up. If they all believe in different religions, and YOU believe that there is a religion out there that is "right," then you must believe that at least 2 of your children are following the wrong religion. They can't all 3 be right, because I can pretty much guarantee that each of those three religions teaches that they are the one true religion. So if only one can possibly be right, at least 2 are necessarily wrong, and following fantasy. How is turning to a fantasy world as a diversion ever a healthy response to stress?



No proof there is a god. No proof there isn't a god.
No proof there are ghosts. And no proof there aren't ghosts.

Time for a little joke:

How many atheists does it take to change a light bulb?
Answer:None, they found a light bulb buried in the sand and came to the conclusion that light bulbs change themselves. :p

MrJIM, the education system of America has completely failed you.

[starry123nights]

No proof that the monster your child believes to be in the closet ISN'T REALLY THERE! So if there is no proof that it isn't there, why are you not tossing lit torches in the closet or boarding it shut? There is no proof that the boogeyman ISN'T under her bed, do you build booby traps around the bed to catch him? If you have no proof that something exists, you have no reason to believe in it. If you have no proof that something does not exist, you still have nothing, and therefore no reason to believe it exists. You can make up ANYTHING you want. ANYTHING. Just make it up. Play make believe. Now, that thing that you just made up, there is no proof that that thing doesn't really exist. So does it then exist? The answer is no.



What does that tell you, if you can't see it unless you already believe in it, and then when you do experience it, it is only on an emotional level?? What does that tell you? It tells me it is all mental. I can tell you that people who believe in Hinduism have claimed to have seen their gods. So is that possible in YOUR world? Cuz their gods (avatars of Krishna, actually) are part animal. So do you believe the guy who says he saw God and that God had an elephants head? Why not?



Would I push my FACTS on her??? LOL.....ROTFLMFAO. Oh god, that was cute, thanks. Yeah, seriously, FACTS are very dangerous. We wouldn't want our children getting ahold of THOSE!!! Dangerous stuff INDEED! I will teach my daughter about the religions when she is young. She will learn about them comparitively, at the same time she learns about greek mythology she will be learning about Roman Catholic mythology, and Hindu mythology, and Mormon mythology.



Unless of course they join the wrong religion and can't go to heaven. Or their religion hates other religions and blows people up. If they all believe in different religions, and YOU believe that there is a religion out there that is "right," then you must believe that at least 2 of your children are following the wrong religion. They can't all 3 be right, because I can pretty much guarantee that each of those three religions teaches that they are the one true religion. So if only one can possibly be right, at least 2 are necessarily wrong, and following fantasy. How is turning to a fantasy world as a diversion ever a healthy response to stress?




MrJIM, the education system of America has completely failed you.

I don't know if it is fantasy or not. What I do know is, they stayed away from drugs, gangs, none had sex until they were married. Mind you I don't care if they would have had sex, as long as it would have been safe sex. I don't want to put my kids life out there, but one of them was in some pretty bad shit. I told you. I have no opinion on religion one way or the other. It's good you choose to teach your child all the different religions. I wonder what would happen if she chose to believe in god? It has not been easy for me not believing my kids religion and biting my tongue and not saying anything when they came home full of the holy spirit. The oldest learned and left the church. The other is married to a christian woman. The third I believe has fallen into a cult. She is old enough to make her own choices. Her life was pure shit before this. I mean almost unbareable for her. I don't believe NOTHING that her so called church stands for, but at the same time, I don't want to put my daughter down because she is much better now in her life. Even if it is believing something I totally disagree with. I only ask her not to put her bullshit on me and in return I don't down her bullshit either.

[MrJim]

MrJIM, the education system of America has completely failed you.

Yeah, it's really failed me soo miserably. I am living such a horrible sub-par life due to my lack of understanding about everything you deem important all because of the education system of my country. It's too bad, too. I could have been living the dream life in Utah all along. :rolleyes:

[theicidal maniac]

It's too bad, too. I could have been living the dream life in Utah all along. :rolleyes: Well, too bad for you. I on the other hand am certainly not dissappointed by your absence.

[MrJim]

Well, too bad for you. I on the other hand am certainly not dissappointed by your absence.

Now, now. No need to be all pissy. Not everyone can be the self-proclaimed master of all physics, you know.

[theicidal maniac]

Now, now. No need to be all pissy. Not everyone can be the self-proclaimed master of all physics, you know.

Oh, I didn't know you were trying to compete for the title.

[starry123nights]

Oh, I didn't know you were trying to compete for the title. hey do you own that title?