Euthanasia

[tocrayzay]

basically assisted suicide

but here is dictionary.com's definition
Also called mercy killing. the act of putting to death painlessly or allowing to die, as by withholding extreme medical measures, a person or animal suffering from an incurable, esp. a painful, disease or condition.

oh and Wikipedia's very entertaining defenition:
Euthanasia (from Greek: ευθανασία -ευ, eu, "good", θάνατος, thanatos, death) is the practice of terminating the life of a person or an animal in a painless or minimally painful way either by lethal injection, drug overdose, or by the withdrawal of life support, or eating penis, because the being to be euthanized is perceived as living an intolerable life.

are you for legalising it or against it?

I personally am 100% for people being allowed to end their own lives especially when they are just suffering if we can end the suffering of animals why not our own

[something]

I'm for it, the people that is against it is always religus. I've see life as a duty to the evolution, the point with it is that staying alive, but it's also a choice, and it doesn't really matter if it is legalized or not, people is still doing it all around us.

[General Septem]

We euthanize dogs, not humans. Withdrawal of life support does not however count as euthanasia. Removing food and letting someone starve to death (even if it's a feeding tube) is inhumane, but other forms of life support like breathing machines and what have you, if the patient's condition is terminal, can be removed to allow the patient to die naturally and comfortably. That's not the same as killing someone to end the pain, because I've got news for you: we all deal with pain sooner or later. You don't just kill yourself, I don't care how bad it is.

[tocrayzay]

so you're saying if you're old, you can't leave the bed, you can't talk without it nearly killing you, the pain you have is 24/7 but yet your body is refusing to die although your mind is done because what is life if you can't enjoy it you're going to lay there and suffer?
i say FUCK THAT SHIT
what good are you to society like that all you're doing is taking up resources

[General Septem]

so you're saying if you're old, you can't leave the bed, you can't talk without it nearly killing you, the pain you have is 24/7 but yet your body is refusing to die although your mind is done because what is life if you can't enjoy it you're going to lay there and suffer?
i say FUCK THAT SHIT
what good are you to society like that all you're doing is taking up resources

I had an aunt like what you were describing, but she enjoyed the life she had and would never even consider killing herself.

[something]

I had an aunt like what you were describing, but she enjoyed the life she had and would never even consider killing herself.

But my grandmother did.

[who897]

I say euthanize everyone that is religious....put them outta their misery, and let the rest of us live our lives.

[something]

I say euthanize everyone that is religious....put them outta their misery, and let the rest of us live our lives.

You know what, that could work. Then they can go to heaven or hell or maybe absoultely no were, so can we be alone and make abortions, have gay marriges, and a lot of other things that we can't have just because of them.:D

[tocrayzay]

I had an aunt like what you were describing, but she enjoyed the life she had and would never even consider killing herself.

i don't think you read what i said i said your body is refusing to die but your mind is ready to go in otherwords you want to die obviously your aunt didn't want to die

[tocrayzay]

and who I'm with you on that one!!!!

[Myshele]

i just did a huge law project on the subject. I'm sure most of you's are American so i'm not sure whether you've heard the story about Sue Rodriguez. She had a disease that would eventually lead to her lungs no longer function, and make her heart beat. She wanted to end her life while she could still hug her children. I think she should have been able to...by the time she made it to Supreme Court to fight it, it was too late.

Robert Latimer had a daughter who was paralyzed and had up to 8 convulsions a day. He brought her into a car, and long story short she died of carbon monoxide poisoining. When he was first arrested he denied the charges untill the autopsy showed high amounts of carbon monoxide in her blood. He was going to receive the minimum sentence of 10 years untill the jurt gave him 1 year in jail with 1 year of house arrest after. Should he have gotten the 10 years?

Personally i think someone should be able to end their life, or have someone help them do it if their so ill they cant. But in the Latimer case, where the daughter couldn't speak for herself, i'm not so convinced.

[tocrayzay]

well yeah a person should have to say "I want to die" and it shouldn't be guess work
i just think people need to stop being selfish and stop worrying about how their life would be without that person and let them end their suffering!!!

[General Septem]

Robert Latimer had a daughter who was paralyzed and had up to 8 convulsions a day. He brought her into a car, and long story short she died of carbon monoxide poisoining. When he was first arrested he denied the charges untill the autopsy showed high amounts of carbon monoxide in her blood. He was going to receive the minimum sentence of 10 years untill the jurt gave him 1 year in jail with 1 year of house arrest after. Should he have gotten the 10 years?

Personally i think someone should be able to end their life, or have someone help them do it if their so ill they cant. But in the Latimer case, where the daughter couldn't speak for herself, i'm not so convinced.

No, what that guy did was plain and simple murder. You don't put your baby out of her misery like she's some horse or dog. As for suicide, everyone thinks all it affects is themselves. You don't think there are times I want to end it all? But I know all the people who would be hurt by it (not to mention I also understand that I'm just tired at these times).

[tocrayzay]

well we're not talking about my boyfriend left me suicide, or my life sucks suicide even though if those people wanna be quitters let them...
we're talking about people who are suffering so much that their loved ones should just let go and let them die
trust me i know what its like to be suicidal but obviously (to many people's dissapointment:D ) i didn't do it plus now with a kid on the way not happening
but i'm talking about people that are so sick that they're gonna die (painfully!!!)anyway might as well let them end it

[General Septem]

well we're not talking about my boyfriend left me suicide, or my life sucks suicide even though if those people wanna be quitters let them...
we're talking about people who are suffering so much that their loved ones should just let go and let them die
trust me i know what its like to be suicidal but obviously (to many people's dissapointment:D ) i didn't do it plus now with a kid on the way not happening
but i'm talking about people that are so sick that they're gonna die (painfully!!!)anyway might as well let them end it

Why, what's the difference? We're all painfully dying here, where do you draw the line? Every tie you drag your crippled self out of bed you're a day closer to death.

RE: If they wanna be quitters let them

True, but it doesn't justify it. If someone wants to be a piece of shit, there's nothing you can do about that either.

[who897]

Ok, what if a bum committed suicide...not quite sure they'd be hurting anyone else other then the guy that's gotta put a tag on their toe. Funny thing about life is that it's quite morbid :D

[hitekredneck]

Ok, what if a bum committed suicide...not quite sure they'd be hurting anyone else other then the guy that's gotta put a tag on their toe. Funny thing about life is that it's quite morbid :D

personally, i think if ya really wanna do yerself in, then go for it...that just means you quit on everything lifeis and stands for...and if they wanna do it bad enough, they will

[tocrayzay]

Why, what's the difference? We're all painfully dying here, where do you draw the line? Every tie you drag your crippled self out of bed you're a day closer to death.

RE: If they wanna be quitters let them

True, but it doesn't justify it. If someone wants to be a piece of shit, there's nothing you can do about that either.

suicide does not inflict upon anybodys rights and don't come with pursuit of happiness because thats what the suicidal was doin, pursuing their happiness

and yes we're all dying but i beg to differ with the painful part, when you have a terminal illness doctors say ok you've got so many months to live and if you're in pain and want to end it you should be able to do it
but when a person whines about this shit and that shit and then wants to die (which they should do if they want but anyway) there is no estimate about how long they have to live

[wawatasei]

40,000 childern dying every day of starvation...cry little baby cry...why not use your brain power...think bliss feel bliss do bliss..even when someone pisses on you it heals something

[wawatasei]

cry
40,000 childern dying every day of starvation...cry little baby cry...why not use your brain power...think bliss feel bliss do bliss..even when someone pisses on you it heals somethingcry little baby cry,,,use your brain brain do it know

[beatniks-and-politics]

I dont see anything wrong with euthenasia, if somebody wants to die, but is incapable of killing themselves [ie the are paralyzed] then i think somebody should help them. I am not however saying i would be the one to help somebody die. I think it is the persons decision wheather they are to live or die.

[Ape-Shit]

The Moral to this story is simple. Live your lives to the most each and every day. Enjoy Life and live life while you can. Do the things you only think about doing. Make your Journey the best that you can.

However, if you visit me in the Hospital and I nod my head or blink my eyes, please pull the plug on your way out.

[beatniks-and-politics]

i agree...:D

[Myshele]

cry cry little baby cry,,,use your brain brain do it know

what on earth do you mean by that?

[starry123nights]

My mother was terminally ill. I watched her go from a healthy, outgoing, full of spirit woman to a ....well anyway, she lived her last year of life in pain. I took care of her and yes I gave her the medicine to help ease the pain. Enough medicine so she couldn't feel shit, let alone know who the hell we were. She wanted to die. None of us could do that to her. So yes, if someone is terminally ill and of sound mind let them have assistance to end their life, and don't give me any of the religious bullshit. You have to walk in someone elses shoes before you can say what is best.

[ajk]

Not really. Truth is truth, and right is right no matter if someone has experienced said matter or not.

[starry123nights]

Not really. Truth is truth, and right is right no matter if someone has experienced said matter or not.

what the hell is that truth is truth and right is right....oh yeah I've read your postings......bullshez

[yea_thats_right1]

Not really. Truth is truth, and right is right no matter if someone has experienced said matter or not.

better understanding the pain and emotional feelings that go along with any said situation will change your mind about "right is right and truth is truth" .. things are wrong because we as humans have made them wrong... some people think that fishing is wrong... think about this.... what makes fishing right?

[ajk]

[QUOTE=yea_thats_right1;19171]better understanding the pain and emotional feelings that go along with any said situation will change your mind about "right is right and truth is truth"QUOTE]

Think of it this way, in terms of euthansia who are we to say that a person should die? Maybe it isn't their time yet. It could be, but we have no way of knowing that. When God is ready to take us, then He will take us, but until that time comes we cannot take another life away, pain or no pain. Consider this too, even if someone seems to be close to end, miracles can and have happened.

[yea_thats_right1]

Think of it this way, in terms of euthansia who are we to say that a person should die? Maybe it isn't their time yet. It could be, but we have no way of knowing that. When God is ready to take us, then He will take us, but until that time comes we cannot take another life away, pain or no pain. Consider this too, even if someone seems to be close to end, miracles can and have happened.

who are we to say that a person does not have the legal or moral right to end their OWN life?

[ajk]

Because again by doing that we are playing God.

[starry123nights]

better understanding the pain and emotional feelings that go along with any said situation will change your mind about "right is right and truth is truth" .. things are wrong because we as humans have made them wrong... some people think that fishing is wrong... think about this.... what makes fishing right?

I agree as I said before...don't know if I would have used that analogy, but point taken.

[yea_thats_right1]

Because again by doing that we are playing God.

if i want to get a tatto or shave my legs i can do so because its my body... and if i get some horrible flesh eating disease for which there is no cure only morphine, and i want to end my life instead of living out my days being eaten alive.. i will do so because it is MY life not yours not anyones but mine... when "god created me" he gave me freewill right???? well then it should be perfectly fine to do what i please. Maybe when your god rested on the 7th day he should have taken that time off to work making sure there would be no disease or murderers, rapists, war.. homelessness..... When your god decides to clean up the mess he technically created then i promis i will go back to church... untill then... he can kiss it!!!!!!!!!!

[ajk]

He didn't create this mess at all. We ourselves have created it. To blame all of this on God is asinine.

[yea_thats_right1]

He didn't create this mess at all. We ourselves have created it. To blame all of this on God is asinine.

god created us... if he wanted peace on earth and all of that he could have simply programmed us diffrently... im not saying that we are to blame for the way the world is today... but if god had put a little more thought into what he was doing we wouldnt have created the mess in the first place....

[ajk]

Here's the thing though, originally it was to be like that. It wasn't supposed to be this way at first. But because of Adam and Eve's original sin in the Garden of Eden, that changed the course of history as we know it.

[starry123nights]

He didn't create this mess at all. We ourselves have created it. To blame all of this on God is asinine.

We created it? I've read your bible. God let bad things happen so people would suffer and come to know him in their suffering...yeah, yeah, yeah. ajk...you have alot to learn.

[ajk]

Read my above post please, in regards to this.

[yea_thats_right1]

Here's the thing though, originally it was to be like that. It wasn't supposed to be this way at first. But because of Adam and Eve's original sin in the Garden of Eden, that changed the course of history as we know it.

riiight... damned the rest of the world blah blah.... listen god could have fixed that in a jiffy... the moment they did that he could have "decided it was their time" and created tom and sally the new improved original mom and dad... but he DIDNT... and that story is bullshit anyway....

[starry123nights]

riiight... damned the rest of the world blah blah.... listen god could have fixed that in a jiffy... the moment they did that he could have "decided it was their time" and created tom and sally the new improved original mom and dad... but he DIDNT... and that story is bullshit anyway....

lmao...I better go to bed

[ajk]

riiight... damned the rest of the world blah blah.... listen god could have fixed that in a jiffy... the moment they did that he could have "decided it was their time" and created tom and sally the new improved original mom and dad... but he DIDNT... and that story is bullshit anyway....

Why would he? What good would that have done?

[Ausinus]

The thing that puzzles me is why would god create that damn tree in the first place?

[Ausinus]

Why would he? What good would that have done?

It would have made the world a better place (in the event this happened - which it didnt).

[ajk]

How do you know the next group wouldn't do the same thing?

[ajk]

The thing that puzzles me is why would god create that damn tree in the first place?

I would assume it was a test to see how much faith, trust and obedience they had in Him. Obviously they failed that test, and because of it the results of that are still felt to this day.

[Ausinus]

I would assume it was a test to see how much faith, trust and obedience they had in Him. Obviously they failed that test, and because of it the results of that are still felt to this day.

But god is supposedly omniscient right - surely he would have known every possible outcome if that was so.

[yea_thats_right1]

Why would he? What good would that have done?

well lets see... tom and sally wouldnt have eaten the apple and we in turn would have no war, hunger, cancer ect.... if your theory is correct as well as mine.... but again i must impress... he DIDNT. and weve never heard from him or seen him.. havent had a phrofit in quite sometime..i think your "god" is prolly one of those little green men.. they found a new uninhabited world created us geneticaly, or something for study and left. simple as that.

[yea_thats_right1]

I would assume it was a test to see how much faith, trust and obedience they had in Him. Obviously they failed that test, and because of it the results of that are still felt to this day.

then god should have forgiven them and in turn.. wiped away the need to punish innocents

[ajk]

Alright, you Atheists think you're so smart. Well let me ask you this, how exactly did the Big Bang happen?

[ajk]

then god should have forgiven them and in turn.. wiped away the need to punish innocents

But that goes against his perfect justice.

[Ausinus]

Alright, you Atheists think you're so smart. Well let me ask you this, how exactly did the Big Bang happen?

There are many theories, one of the most prevalent being a collision between two of the 10 dimensions. This would release the energy that created the matter in the universe.

[Ausinus]

But that goes against his perfect justice.

"Perfect" justice? Bullcrap - gods "justice" is one that involves opression of the rights of life and liberty.

[ajk]

Okay then, where did these "dimensions" come from?

[yea_thats_right1]

Okay then, where did these "dimensions" come from?

let me ask you this... space is big... in that space im sure there are billions of other "earths" does god govern them all? did he create them all??

[ajk]

You're avoiding the question. I'll ask again, where did these "dimensions" come from?

[yea_thats_right1]

You're avoiding the question. I'll ask again, where did these "dimensions" come from?

but darling... you were asking ausi not me... it would be rude of me to intrude on something you directed towards someone else... any whoot.... answer my question :D

[ajk]

Yeah I realize that now. In answer to that I would say yes. He does know and see all that is afterall.

[Ausinus]

You're avoiding the question. I'll ask again, where did these "dimensions" come from?

Not honestly sure. However there is an idea contained within the String Theory.

[ajk]

So then basically what evolution is, is nothing more then an idea. You don't know if it's true, but simply you believe it to be so. Not only that you don't even know for sure how it all started in the first place. It's all theories.

And yet you criticize us Christians of having no proof?

[yea_thats_right1]

So then basically what evolution is, is nothing more then an idea. You don't know if it's true, but simply you believe it to be so. Not only that you don't even know for sure how it all started in the first place.

And yet you criticize us Christians of having no proof?

scienceis more plausible than some entity claiming to be a "god" created one man and one woman who populated the entire earth.

[who897]

Not honestly sure. However there is an idea contained within the String Theory.

I thought the string theory was just that atoms had even smaller building blocks called strings. I seen a show on it about 8 yrs ago I think, guy bored me to death so I changed the channel LOL.

Where did your "god" come from?

[ajk]

scienceis more plausible than some entity claiming to be a "god" created one man and one woman who populated the entire earth.

Well if it was don't you think there would be only one way that it happened, and not 4 or 5 "possible" ways?

[yea_thats_right1]

Well if it was don't you think there would be only one way that it happened, and not 4 or 5 "possible" ways?

science is open minded... see your faith is one way.. no room for growth or adaptation... no trial and error...

[Ausinus]

So then basically what evolution is, is nothing more then an idea. You don't know if it's true, but simply you believe it to be so. Not only that you don't even know for sure how it all started in the first place. It's all theories.

And yet you criticize us Christians of having no proof?

Evolution is a fact. Quod Erat Demonstrandum. No theory about it.

In regards to the big bang, its mathematical theory, and logic. Its very nature stretches science to its limits, empiricism will not explain it much, although rationalism can. There is some empirical evidence for it, such as red shift and background radiation, etc. Until time travel is invented, we wont know what exactly happened.

Wheras god cannot be explained either through logic or mathematical theory.

[Ausinus]

I thought the string theory was just that atoms had even smaller building blocks called strings. I seen a show on it about 8 yrs ago I think, guy bored me to death so I changed the channel LOL.

Where did your "god" come from?

The String Theory is quite complex, it entails a lot of things such as the very nature of the universe and the forces contained within.

[ajk]

Evolution is a fact. Quod Erat Demonstrandum. No theory about it.


If it's a fact, then why can't you explain precisely how it happened, like a Christian more or less can.

[ajk]

science is open minded... see your faith is one way.. no room for growth or adaptation... no trial and error...

If science is as accurate as you claim it to be there would be a way to find out just what happened no? Be it through trial and error or whatever.

[yea_thats_right1]

If it's a fact, then why can't you explain precisely how it happened, like a Christian more or less can.

you see christians are basing thier faith on a book that has beed edited and rewritten over and over again.... science is logical

[Ausinus]

If it's a fact, then why can't you explain precisely how it happened, like a Christian more or less can.

I can explain how it happened, happens and is happening. Genetic mutations, variances and adaptions, form in the offspring of a species. If this trait enables the organism to survive better in its environment, then they will pass this trait on to their offspring. They have been naturally selected.

[yea_thats_right1]

If science is as accurate as you claim it to be there would be a way to find out just what happened no? Be it through trial and error or whatever.

its going to take awhile.. but yes there is a way.

[ajk]

Yes but here's the difference, we have just one way that we know of as to how we all came to be. Whereas you have 5 or 6 different ways with no idea as to which one is right. Which would you rather believe?

[Ausinus]

Yes but here's the difference, we have just one way that we know of as to how we all came to be. Whereas you have 5 or 6 different ways with no idea as to which one is right. Which would you rather believe?

The 5 or 6 different ways are 5 or 6 different proposed theories, based upon mathematics, logic and observations. That is the nature of science, it constantly changes, refutes and refines its knowledge of the universe.

[ajk]

I can explain how it happened, happens and is happening. Genetic mutations, variances and adaptions, form in the offspring of a species. If this trait enables the organism to survive better in its environment, then they will pass this trait on to their offspring. They have been naturally selected.

But that still doesn't explain how it started now does it. In order for there to be a middle and an end, there has to be a beginning. If you can't explain the beginning, then it puts the entire thing into question.

[yea_thats_right1]

Yes but here's the difference, we have just one way that we know of as to how we all came to be. Whereas you have 5 or 6 different ways with no idea as to which one is right. Which would you rather believe?

i would rather believe in science and facts and not some book with crap that CANNOT be proven... i would choose to believe that we were not created by an entity claiming to be our "god" help a little and then leave and not help with the heardships that ensued... so i will take fact over abandonment thank you very much.

[Ausinus]

But that still doesn't explain how it started now does it. In order for there to be a middle and an end, there has to be a beginning. If you can't explain the beginning, then it puts the entire thing into question.

Beginning. Lets see - abiogenesis. The oceans of the primitive earth were primordial soup, and life arose from this in a number or random processes that happened simultaneously. A very simple paraphrase of a very complex explanation, mind you.

[ajk]

Doesn't work though, how did the Earth get there? It didn't get there out of thin air. There had to be a creator, just as there must be a creator for anything in this world. Does a car appear out of thin air? Of course not, it takes a builder or builders to make that car, to install all the neccessary parts to make it work properly. If that can be true for a car, why shouldn't that be true for us as well?

[Ausinus]

Doesn't work though, how did the Earth get there? It didn't get there out of thin air. There had to be a creator, just as there must be a creator for anything in this world. Does a car appear out of thin air? Of course not, it takes a builder or builders to make that car, to install all the neccessary parts to make it work properly. If that can be true for a car, why shouldn't that be true for us as well?

In the beginning, there was energy, energy formed matter and antimatter. these clashed, but matter was victorious, and clumped together to form celestial phenomena. Wouldnt it also follow that this "creator" would also need a creator?

[ajk]

But didn't there have to be someone to create that energy?

[yea_thats_right1]

am i being ignored because im a woman.. gesh

[Ausinus]

But didn't there have to be someone to create that energy?

Big Bang, like I said.

I ask again, wouldnt it also logically follow that said creator would also need a creator? And where did this creator come from?

[ajk]

Wouldnt it also follow that this "creator" would also need a creator?

No because He is not of this world. So therefore the laws of physics would not apply to Him.

[ajk]

Big Bang, like I said.


But the Big Bang couldn't have came out of thin air either. Someone would have had to set it into motion right?

[Ausinus]

No because He is not of this world. So therefore the laws of physics would not apply to Him.

There is a phrase for this type of argument - "argument panacea".

[Ausinus]

But the Big Bang couldn't have came out of thin air either. Someone would have had to set it into motion right?

Not everything requires a "someone" to create it.

Prior to the big bang is getting into all sorts of extremely complex physics and mathematics. I dont fully understand it myself.

[Ausinus]

Collision in dimensions, oscillatory universe, etc.

[ajk]

Explain to me why everything doesn't need a creator. Without a creator to set things into being, how do we even know they happened?

[yea_thats_right1]

haha no responce.. i guess the answer is yes then..

[ajk]

There is a phrase for this type of argument - "argument panacea".

That doesn't do anything to refute the argument.

[Ausinus]

Explain to me why everything doesn't need a creator. Without a creator to set things into being, how do we even know they happened?

Because then, who created the creator?

[ajk]

Because then, who created the creator?

As I said He wasn't created, He always was. The laws of physics do not apply to him because He is not of this world. If He was that would be different, and He would need a creator, but He isn't and doesn't.

[Ausinus]

That doesn't do anything to refute the argument.

Exactly. It is an irrefutable argument with no basis. I cannot argue it because I cannot disprove that god is outside time and space, however, you cannot prove it either.

[sanford]

Gotta love how people claim to be full of logic - insult Christians for not having it, yet have no logic on the situation themself. So sad. :D

[Ausinus]

As I said He wasn't created, He always was. The laws of physics do not apply to him because He is not of this world. If He was that would be different, but He isn't.

Well then, why couldnt the dimensions have always existed?

[Ausinus]

Gotta love how people claim to be full of logic - insult Christians for not having it, yet have no logic on the situation themself. So sad. :D

Oh shut up.:p I have an excuse.

[ajk]

Because they are (or were) a part of the world. Therefore they would have needed someone to create them for them to exist.

[yea_thats_right1]

As I said He wasn't created, He always was. The laws of physics do not apply to him because He is not of this world. If He was that would be different, and He would need a creator, but He isn't and doesn't.

EXACTLY hes an alien :D

[Ausinus]

Because they are (or were) a part of the world. Therefore they would have needed someone to create them for them to exist.

Dimensions arent physical things, to an extent, about 4 of them are spatial measurements.

Besides, you have no evidence to show that god is outside time and space, or that he even exists. I cannot disprove the existence of a god, simply because it has never been proven. However, I can disprove (or rather falsify the concept of) the existence of your god.

[ajk]

[QUOTE=Ausinus;19255]Dimensions arent physical things, to an extent, about 4 of them are spatial measurements.
[QUOTE]

True, but it's still a part of our universe, a world element as it were. That of course is separate from God.

[Ausinus]

True, but it's still a part of our universe, a world element as it were. That of course is separate from God.

So how exactly, are you so sure that the dimensions have not always existed?

In any case, your inarguable statements dont necessarily prove the existence of the Christian God.

[ajk]

Because if it's a part of our world something would have had to have created it in order for it to be there. Otherwise how would it get there?

[Ausinus]

Because if it's a part of our world something would have had to have created it in order for it to be there. Otherwise how would it get there?

Like I said, maybe it has always existed.

[ajk]

You don't even know yourself do you?

How would that be possible anyway? There's no way something in this world could simply exist. Everything around us has to have a start before it can be finished.

[Ausinus]

You don't even know yourself do you?

How would that be possible anyway? There's no way something in this world could simply exist. Everything around us has to have a start before it can be finished.

How is it possible that God can simply exist? How is it possible something can be outside of time and space yet still influence things within time and space?

[ajk]

As I've said, since he is outside of our realm he does not need a creator, and the physical laws of our world do not apply to Him because he is not in it.

[Ausinus]

As I've said, since he is outside of our realm he does not need a creator, and the physical laws of our world do not apply to Him because he is not in it.

Then how can god influence things in this universe?

[ajk]

Precisely because of that fact. Since the laws do not apply to Him, He can do things a mere mortal would not be able to.

[Ausinus]

Precisely because of that fact. Since the laws do not apply to Him, He can do things a mere mortal would not be able to.

Yet if he enters the universe, then of course he must comply with its laws.

[ajk]

Not neccessarily, since he's entering our universe and staying in His own at the same time.

[Ausinus]

You see, the religious idea of a god's omnipotence is a way of ensuring people cannot use logic against it. If you are able to say "he is god, he can do anything", then it refutes any logical argument. Yet there are many conceptual flaws with God's omnipotence.For example, can god

-create a rock so heavy even he can't lift it?
-make light travel at less than the speed of light?
-Make a hydrogen atom with two protons and the same atomic weight?
-Make an object at rest have no inertia?

[Ausinus]

Not neccessarily, since he's entering our universe and staying in His own at the same time.

But his manifestation into our universe would conform to the laws of physics.

[ajk]

But his manifestation into our universe would conform to the laws of physics.

Not really, because since He is God he can and does break those laws. Those only apply to us, not to Him.

[Ausinus]

Not really, because since He is God he can and does break those laws. Those only apply to us, not to Him.

Can god make an object have no inertia?

[ajk]

He could do anything and everything.

[Ausinus]

He could do anything and everything.

Could he make a rock so big he cannot lift it?

[ajk]

If He wanted to, He could do that, but at the very same time He could also change it so He could lift it if He wanted to.

[Ausinus]

If He wanted to, He could do that, but at the very same time He could also change it so He could lift it if He wanted to.

Then the rock is not so big as for him to be unable to lift it.

Omnipotence is a circular paradox. If you are not powerful enough to exceed your own omnipotence, then you arent omnipotent then are you now?

[ajk]

You don't get it. He can do ANYTHING He wants to do. Doesn't matter what or why.

[Ausinus]

You don't get it. He can do ANYTHING He wants to do. Doesn't matter what or why.

You dont get it, omnipotency is circular and illogical.

[ajk]

Omnipotency is a definition in this world which is irrelevent to the possibilities of God.

[Ausinus]

Omnipotency is a definition in this world which is irrelevent to the possibilities of God.

Omnipotent means all powerful. So it does apply. If you can do anything, its means you are all powerful no?

[ajk]

Yes, and God can do anything.

[Ausinus]

Yes, and God can do anything.

Except exceed his own omnipotence.

[ajk]

Which isn't possible.

[Ausinus]

Which isn't possible.

So he isnt all powerful. He does have limits to his power.

[ajk]

No He doesn't. That's exactly why he can't exceed His own power, because it has no limits.

[Ausinus]

No He doesn't. That's exactly why he can't exceed His own power, because it has no limits.

If he was all powerful, he would have the ability to exceed said limits. But those limits dont exist. You see how omnipotence is circular and illogical?

[ajk]

No it isn't, he can't break a limit because there are none. Therefore he can do anything, anything at all without said limit to confine Him.

[Ausinus]

No it isn't, he can't break a limit because there are none. Therefore he can do anything, anything at all without said limit to confine Him.

So he isnt all powerful then. You can argue all you want, it doesnt change the fact that omnipotence is circular and illogical.

[ajk]

Yes He is. Logic does not exist to Him. It means nothing.

[Ausinus]

Yes He is. Logic does not exist to Him. It means nothing.

Then why should we follow him?

[ajk]

Because if we do, there's a chance we will get rewarded after we pass away from this life. In doing so we will find out the answers to certain unanswerable questions that we cannot wrap our minds around while alive.

[Ausinus]

Because if we do, there's a chance we will get rewarded after we pass away from this life. In doing so we will find out the answers to certain unanswerable questions that we cannot wrap our minds around while alive.

But you dont actually know if you will go anywhere do you?

[ajk]

I know I will go one of two places, either Heaven or Hell depending on how my judgment at the end of my life goes. Why do I know that, because the Bible says as much. I can say that with confidence, can you say the same about evolution now?

[Ausinus]

I know I will go one of two places, either Heaven or Hell depending on how my judgment at the end of my life goes. Why do I know that, because the Bible says as much. I can say that with confidence, can you say the same about evolution now?

I can say with confidence we evolved from simpler organisms.

How can you trust the bible, especially since it is wrong on some things and contradictory.

[ajk]

So you think that we just simply evolved from simpler organisms that came out of nothing? Okay let's put that to the test shall we? I challenge you to invent something that does not exist right now. Something that there is no reference to, and something that has no example anywhere. Can you do it?

[Ausinus]

So you think that we just simply evolved from simpler organisms that came out of nothing? Okay let's put that to the test shall we? I challenge you to invent something that does not exist right now. Something that there is no reference to, and something that has no example anywhere. Can you do it?

Yes. I have invented a thought about a gigantic burrito which craps chocolate crepes.

[ajk]

Doesn't work. You are referencing food which already exists.

[Ausinus]

Doesn't work. You are referencing food which already exists.

Hm, lets think. A squijnarck. There.

In any case, simple organisms didnt just appear.

[ajk]

Define it please.

[Ausinus]

Define it please.

Its long, curved, a shade of purple I have never seen before.

[ajk]

Wrong again, you are referencing color.

[Ausinus]

Wrong again, you are referencing color.

The thing is, I cannot come up with something with no properties that are inherent in the physical universe, simply because I dont know of anything other than what is in the physical universe. Human cognition is more to blame here than the concept of something completely original ex nihilo.

[ajk]

That's exactly the point I am trying to make. If you can't do it, then how did we get here using that same idea?

[Ausinus]

That's exactly the point I am trying to make. If you can't do it, then how did we get here using that same idea?

Because I am limited by human cognition and experience, whereas a natural event is not.

[ajk]

Yes but if there is no reference point for it anywhere in the universe, or no one to think it up, how did it all get here?

[Ausinus]

Yes but if there is no reference point for it anywhere in the universe, or no one to think it up, how did it all get here?

Random probability. No one thinks up the unique structure of snowflakes, they occu naturally and randomly.

[ajk]

Not true God created that, and each of its patterns.

[Ausinus]

Not true God created that, and each of its patterns.

Nope. Not any evidence for that.

[ajk]

There's no other way. There must be a God. Evolution is flawed, whereas the existence of God is not flawed in the least.

[Ausinus]

There's no other way. There must be a God. Evolution is flawed, whereas the existence of God is not flawed in the least.

The idea of an omnipotent god is flawed, as I said before. Additionally, animals and humans are not perfect, god fucked up big time when making us.

[ajk]

No we screwed ourselves up, through original sin.

[ajk]

If evolution isn't flawed, then why are all blades of grass (fresh ones that is) green? Why aren't some blue, or purple? Kinda defeats the purpose of random probability doesn't it?

[Ausinus]

If evolution isn't flawed, then why are all blades of grass (fresh ones that is) green? Why aren't some blue, or purple? Kinda defeats the purpose of random probability doesn't it?

No, its because of the prescence of the chemical chlorophyll, which is necessary to photosynthesise and relfects mainly green light.

[Ausinus]

No we screwed ourselves up, through original sin.

Lets see some biological flaws in humans.

1) Our bodies are not structured well for the purpose of walking upright
2) Uncessary organs such as the appendix
3) Our digestive tracts arent very good at processing meat

among other things.

[ajk]

Alright well how about the fact that everything on this Earth needs someone or something to create it. I already have proven that. Without a creator, or a reference point that can be used to create it, it cannot be.

[Ausinus]

Alright well how about the fact that everything on this Earth needs someone or something to create it. I already have proven that. Without a creator, or a reference point that can be used to create it, it cannot be.

Why dont you read The Blind Watchmaker by Richard Dawkins. It will show you why that particular belief is unfounded.

[ajk]

Give me an example out of there and I bet you I can refute it. It's common sense. How can something exist for which there is no reference point for and no creator? That is not possible in the least.

[Ausinus]

Give me an example out of there and I bet you I can refute it. It's common sense. How can something exist for which there is no reference point for and no creator? That is not possible in the least.

Dawkins states that the complete randomness of evolution, the fact that the majority of mutations are negative and do not assist the organism but inhibit it, are proof that there is no designer but that the progression of species is a random thing.

[Ausinus]

The watchmaker is a false analogy because it assumes that because two objects share one common quality, they must have another quality in common.

A watch is complex
A watch has a watchmaker
The universe is also complex
Therefore the universe has a watchmaker

The last step is wrong, because it concludes something that is not supported by the criteria. It is best clearified by another example:


Leaves are complex cellulose structures
Leaves grow on trees
Money bills are also complex cellulose structures
Therefore money grow on trees (wich, according to the idiom, they don't)

[ajk]

The money thing doesn't make sense, because we obviously know that isn't true. However, the watchmaker analogy does. Reason being, a watch like the universe itself is complex and made up of many parts. It takes a watchmaker to put those pieces together correctly so that the watch works properly. One part in the wrong spot and everything breaks.

The same could be said of the universe itself. It is made up of many different things, animals, people, etc. It cannot just come about naturally without some form of chaos resulting from it. No it takes a special "watchmaker" (not literally, watchmaker means God in this case), to make sure all parts are put together and in the proper order.

[Ausinus]

The money thing doesn't make sense, because we obviously know that isn't true. However, the watchmaker analogy does. Reason being, a watch like the universe itself is complex and made up of many parts. It takes a watchmaker to put those pieces together correctly so that the watch works properly. One part in the wrong spot and everything breaks.

Actually it does. The three statements are being used to create a conclusion which is not supported by the criteria.

The same could be said of the universe itself. It is made up of many different things, animals, people, etc. It cannot just come about naturally without some form of chaos resulting from it. No it takes a special "watchmaker" (not literally, watchmaker means God in this case), to make sure all parts are put together and in the proper order.

This argument assumes the universe is in a state of order. Well its not, its actually in a constant state of disorder. Order means that all things are structured and constant. If this were true, then all the celestial bodies would move at the same speed, have equal mass, and the distribution of energy would be equal. Also, stars would form in the exact same place in every nebula, and every nebula would look the same. The universe is entirely a random thing.

[ajk]

Yes but where do you think that random nature comes from? It has to come from somewhere or somebody.

[Ausinus]

Yes but where do you think that random nature comes from? It has to come from somewhere or somebody.

You are making an assumption that there actually is someone to come from. This is why the two sides to the argument are not equal, the secular side is a more valid argument because it does not base its theory upon the assumption of an all powerful creator.

[ajk]

Well now don't you think logic would dictate, that everything in this universe had to have came from someone or something?

[Ausinus]

Well now don't you think logic would dictate, that everything in this universe had to have came from someone or something?

Yes. And that something, according to the secular side, is the big bang, or a similar idea.

[ajk]

But the Big Bang would had to have been created by something as well would it not? It couldn't have just happened out of nowhere now could it.

[Ausinus]

But the Big Bang would had to have been created by something as well would it not? It couldn't have just happened out of nowhere now could it.

As I said before, perhaps a collision between two dimensions.

I understand that science and logic is at its limits as to where the dimensions came from, of where the big bang came from. However, the difference between that argument and your's, is that we can still observe the dimensions and after effects of the big bang.

[ajk]

Explain to me why we can't see and observe the Bible's version of creation. We can see everything created can we not? The sky, the grass, the animals, etc.

[Ausinus]

Explain to me why we can't see and observe the Bible's version of creation. We can see everything created can we not? The sky, the grass, the animals, etc.

But we cannot see the evidence of the actual process of biblical creation, we only see its results.

[ajk]

Alright well let's see your evidence of the Big Bang then.

[Ausinus]

Alright well let's see your evidence of the Big Bang then.

The red shift from the doppler effect and the background radiation.

[ajk]

Explain how that relates to the Big Bang.

[General Septem]

We've actually been able to see the Big Bang by looking into space with a telescope. It's not like the Big Bang theory would be inconsistent with God saying "let there be light" anyway.

[something]

Explain how that relates to the Big Bang.

My god ajk, are you a creationist too?:eek: well I suppose you're a super religus fuck...

[tocrayzay]

based on christians view of how the earth became populated, adam and eve were true kane had to have sex with his mom to have children of his own and basically we're all related people commiting incest everytime we hop in the sack with someone

call me crazy but that's pretty damn sick if you ask me

[hitekredneck]

My god ajk, are you a creationist too?:eek: well I suppose you're a super religus fuck...

talk about an understatement...lmfaoooo....kindal like sayin who likes to start shit:D

[ajk]

We've actually been able to see the Big Bang by looking into space with a telescope. It's not like the Big Bang theory would be inconsistent with God saying "let there be light" anyway.

Yeah I was reading a bit about that on wiki before.

[tocrayzay]

i'll just say when a person has enough "faith" they'll justify anything with it

[Ausinus]

Explain how that relates to the Big Bang.

Red shift, all the celestial bodies are moving away from each other.

Background radiation, left over from a large energetic expansion.

[ajk]

I see. Well I won't deny that it is likely this Big Bang did happen based on what I've heard here. However, it does not change the fact that it could not have happened out of nowhere with no rhyme or reasoning for it. There had to be someone to get the wheels turning as it were. That someone would of course be God. There's no other way this all could have happened.

[Ausinus]

I see. Well I won't deny that it is likely this Big Bang did happen based on what I've heard here. However, it does not change the fact that it could not have happened out of nowhere with no rhyme or reasoning for it. There had to be someone to get the wheels turning as it were. That someone would of course be God. There's no other way this all could have happened.

Let me ask you this - why do we need a creator?

[ajk]

Because there's no other way the universe could have been formed. Everything in the known universe has to have had someone who created it in order for it to exist. Therefore it would stand to reason that the entire universe itself would need a creator as well.

[Ausinus]

Because there's no other way the universe could have been formed. Everything in the known universe has to have had someone who created it in order for it to exist. Therefore it would stand to reason that the entire universe itself would need a creator as well.

What about natural random processes? They arent created.

Additionally, you cannot so there is no way that it could have come about other than being created. Were you there at the beginning of the universe?

[ajk]

I could ask you the same question. Additionally it's common sense. Things don't just come of out thin air and all of a sudden are there. Someone has to think it up first, before it can become reality. Could someone who wanted to build a radio create one just by thinking about it? Of course not. So why would the creation of the universe be any different?

[Ausinus]

I could ask you the same question.

But we can observe the effects of the theorised origins. Indeed, you are looking at four of the dimensions right now.

[ajk]

But they had to get there somewhere right?

[Ausinus]

But they had to get there somewhere right?

God had to get there somewhere right? You see, both arguments are circular, but yours is less valid because it makes the assumption of a being that has not been proven to exist.

[ajk]

The difference is with God the rules of nature and physics do not apply to Him. Reason being He is in a separate realm from us. For that reason He does not need a creator in order to exist.

[ajk]

You didn't answer the first time, so I'll ask again: If a radio cannot be created simply through thought, what makes you think the universe could be created that way?

[Ausinus]

You didn't answer the first time, so I'll ask again: If a radio cannot be created simply through thought, what makes you think the universe could be created that way?

A radio cannot be created through thought because of the phyisical principles in place in this universe, namely the Law of Conservation of energy.

However, it would not be a large leap to say that these principles did not exist at the beginning of the universe.

[Ausinus]

The difference is with God the rules of nature and physics do not apply to Him. Reason being He is in a separate realm from us. For that reason He does not need a creator in order to exist.

Again, it is circular, and you have no evidence to show god exists in the first place, wheras we know for a fact the dimensions exist.

[ajk]

Why would it? Wouldn't the same laws that apply now, apply then?

[Ausinus]

Why would it? Wouldn't the same laws that apply now, apply then?

Law isnt really the best term for it, as we dont really know if these are universal. It is better to say principle, simply because the "laws" of physics merely describe the human experience with matter and energy.

Because in a vaccum, with no matter or energy present, the laws cannot really apply then. Once energy becomes present, then the "laws" begin to apply.

[ajk]

But surely there must have been someone to bring that energy forth no? Otherwise where would it come from?

[Ausinus]

But surely there must have been someone to bring that energy forth no?

Like I said, dimensions. However, the dimensiosn themselves arent really matter or energy.

[ajk]

Well if they aren't, then how could they give forth any?

[Ausinus]

Well if they aren't, then how could they give forth any?

This gets into the realm of extremely complex quantum physics, I dont understand it myself. However, it isnt that farfectched, I mean, matter can come from energy and vice versa.

[ajk]

See you can't explain it can you? The reason you can't is because it is not possible. In order for the energy to exist for the Big Bang to happen, there had to be a creator to put that energy there. Otherwise there's no way that energy neccessary for the Big Bang to take place could exist.

[Ausinus]

See you can't explain it can you? The reason you can't is because it is not possible. In order for the energy to exist for the Big Bang to happen, there had to be a creator to put that energy there. Otherwise there's no way that energy neccessary for the Big Bang to take place could exist.

The reason I cant explain it is because im not a quantum physicist.

Yet every time I try to say that god needs a creator, you rebutt it with an inarguable statement, for which there is no proof.

[ajk]

There's more proof of God existing, then of your theory for the reasons I have stated. As I said it's simply common sense.

[Ausinus]

There's more proof of God existing, then of your theory for the reasons I have stated. As I said it's simply common sense.

There is no proof of god existing.

[ajk]

I have already explained why. There is no other way this universe could have came about with out Him to set it in motion. It's impossible.

[Ausinus]

I have already explained why. There is no other way this universe could have came about with out Him to set it in motion. It's impossible.

How is it impossible? Have you ever seen something come from nothing? Have you seen every corner of the universe and reality to see that this is so?

[ajk]

Obviously not, but's it common sense. If you really think about it, there is no way that energy can just appear without someone putting it there. Else where it would come from?

[Ausinus]

Obviously not, but's it common sense. If you really think about it, there is no way that energy can just appear without someone putting it there. Else where it would come from?

Common sense, as you call it, is based upon human experience.

[ajk]

Use your head man, it's so obvious. I can't lay it out any more then I have. There is no possible way that what you claim happened did without a creator to bring it all together.

[Ausinus]

Use your head man, it's so obvious. I can't lay it out any more then I have. There is no possible way that what you claim happened did without a creator to bring it all together.

Its far from obvious.

But you cant disprove that can you? You can only present your side of the argument.

[ajk]

I already have disproved it, once again for the reasons I have stated.

[Ausinus]

I already have disproved it, once again for the reasons I have stated.

Yet you have not proven your argument, which means they are both wrong.

[ajk]

Its far from obvious.

Yes it is, I said it before and I will say it again. If you yourself cannot come up with something that has no example, and cannot be referenced to anything or anyone, then how could the universe have gotten here in that exact way. It does not work.

[Ausinus]

Yes it is, I said it before and I will say it again. If you yourself cannot come up with something that has no example, and cannot be referenced to anything or anyone, then how could the universe have gotten here in that exact way. It does not work.

Because, the universe isnt limited by the human pysche.

[ajk]

It's not about the human psyche, it's about the laws of the universe. Without something to make it go, it won't go. It's really that simple.

[Ausinus]

It's not about the human psyche, it's about the laws of the universe. Without something to make it go, it won't go. It's really that simple.

There are no universal laws, per se, simply because we have not seen an instance in which these laws have been broken. These
laws" are used to describe human experience.

[theicidal maniac]

It's not about the human psyche, it's about the laws of the universe. Without something to make it go, it won't go. It's really that simple.

The big bang made it go, and it's still going

[ajk]

Yes but how did the Big Bang go? To say that it went by itself makes no sense at all.

[theicidal maniac]

Obviously not, but's it common sense. If you really think about it, there is no way that energy can just appear without someone putting it there. Else where it would come from?

But if someone "put" energy somewhere, they would have to have enrgy to DO that...so energy ALREADY EXISTED! Energy has always existed.

[General Septem]

kane had to have sex with his mom

How do you figure?


basically we're all related people commiting incest everytime we hop in the sack with someone

Not really, after first cousins it's not incest anymore.

[theicidal maniac]

Energy cannot be created or destroyed.

[ajk]

But if someone "put" energy somewhere, they would have to have enrgy to DO that...so energy ALREADY EXISTED! Energy has always existed.

Yes but not in this universe. God would have had to use the energy he had from above, and then put that energy into our own universe before anything can happen. The energy cannot just be there on it's own in our universe.

[Ausinus]

This is the thing with you religious folks, every time we show something that affects the nature of God in some way, you just come up with convoluted and illogical explanations which we cant argue.

[ajk]

That's because you are wrong, and you know it deep down. You just don't want to admit it. If you were right, you would be able to refute any argument. But you can't.

[Ausinus]

That's because you are wrong, and you know it deep down. You just don't want to admit it. If you were right, you would be able to refute any argument. But you can't.

Nope, its not because we are wrong. Its because you cant argue against illogical statements with logical arguments. You also cannot disprove the unproven. Observe

You can say "God is a man", and I cant argue it, because god is unproven, so I cant use any logical arguments to disprove it.

[ajk]

Again if you were as right as you say, you'd find a way to refute any argument thrown at you. But you obviously cannot do that.

[Ausinus]

Again if you were as right as you say, you'd find a way to refute any argument thrown at you. But you obviously cannot do that.

Thats because I use logic, im not a completely gullible idiot. I cannot use logic to disprove god, because god has never been proven.

Additionally, I cannot explain how the dimensions were created, just like you cannot explain how god was created. The only argument left is that they were always there.

[ajk]

No it's because you are stubborn. You refuse to admit defeat, even if you know you are beaten.

[Ausinus]

No it's because you are stubborn. You refuse to admit defeat, even if you know you are beaten.

Im not beaten, far from it. I know I am not beaten because I know you cant prove the existence of a creator using any logical argument.

[ajk]

Additionally, I cannot explain how the dimensions were created, just like you cannot explain how god was created. The only argument left is that they were always there.

That is true, but there is one main difference. There is no way whatsoever that the dimensions could have just existed in this universe without someone to put them there in the first place. But in the case of God it is entirely possible that he always has existed simply because he's in a different realm from us.

[Ausinus]

That is true, but there is one main difference. There is no way whatsoever that the dimensions could have just existed in this universe without someone to put them there in the first place. But in the case of God it is entirely possible that he always has existed simply because he's in a different realm from us.

Then where did that realm come from?

[ajk]

That's one thing we don't know, and likely won't know until we pass away from this life and go into the next. There is a limit to our knowledge. How that realm got there I could not say, but it's a lot more plausible then saying something always was in our universe even if no one put it there.

[Ausinus]

That's one thing we don't know, and likely won't know until we pass away from this life and go into the next. There is a limit to our knowledge. How that realm got there I could not say, but it's a lot more plausible then saying something always was in our universe even if no one put it there.

Then how is it plausible saying that things in gods universe was always there?

[ajk]

Because his universe is totally different from our own, and the laws that we know of would not apply there. For all we know it could have been just God there in nothingness for however long a time before creation.

[Ausinus]

Because his universe is totally different from our own, and the laws that we know of would not apply there.

And you know this because..............?

[ajk]

Ok I don't really know that, I'm just guessing that would be the case. More then likely. How that realm got there I don't know, maybe God was there and he created that realm on his own we don't really know for sure. But there has to be that initial creator, that initial starting point as it were. Without that creator, there is no creation, and no universe as we know it.

[Ausinus]

Ok I don't really know that, I'm just guessing that would be the case. More then likely. How that realm got there I don't know, maybe God was there and he created that realm on his own we don't really know for sure. But there has to be that initial creator, that initial starting point as it were. Without that creator, there is no creation, and no universe as we know it.

So then its likely to assume that god required a creator in another universe. Who knows, maybe we are the scientific creation of another race in another universe?

[ajk]

No that wouldn't be the case. If that was true, then you'd need another creator for that one, and another one for him, and so on and so forth. You'd never get a true creator then.

[Ausinus]

No that wouldn't be the case. If that was true, then you'd need another creator for that one, and another one for him, and so on and so forth. You'd never get a true creator then.

Exactly the point.

[ajk]

Doesn't mean God doesn't exist though. It just means in His realm, God wouldn't need to be created. Unlike this universe where everything we see needs a creator to bring it forth.

[Ausinus]

Doesn't mean God doesn't exist though. It just means in His realm, God wouldn't need to be created. Unlike this universe where everything we see needs a creator to bring it forth.

It would be prudent to assume that physical laws differ between universes. Especially since you cannot disprove that gods universe would conform to the same laws.

[ajk]

Look do I have all the answers? No I don't. None of us do. There are certain things that man cannot understand with our small minds. This would be one of those things.

[Ausinus]

Look do I have all the answers? No I don't. None of us do. There are certain things that man cannot understand with our small minds. This would be one of those things.

The point I was saying earlier.

[ajk]

The thing is though, even if we may not understand why it is how it is, it still is nonetheless.

[theicidal maniac]

The thing is though, even if we may not understand why it is how it is, it still is nonetheless.

But only moments ago.....


Ok I don't really know that, I'm just guessing

[ajk]

I just meant I did not know for sure just how that realm worked. Not that God didn't exist.

[theicidal maniac]

I just meant I did not know for sure just how that realm worked. Not that God didn't exist.

So explain to me how your belief that there is another dimension of existence is any different than your belief that God exists. Please discuss any evidence for either claim. Because as far as myself (or the scientific community for that matter) is aware, no such evidence exists. Evidence of that nature would be the discovery of all discoveries...so how come there has been no evidence brought forth?

[ajk]

Because our simple minds cannot understand such things as this. Again we have a limited knowledge. We were not meant to know everything, and why such things came to be. However, in spite of that these things still did happen.

[theicidal maniac]

Because our simple minds cannot understand such things as this. Again we have a limited knowledge. We were not meant to know everything, and why such things came to be. However, in spite of that these things still did happen.

But you don't know that. That's the point. Even if you say we are not meant to know certain things, there are a lot of things that WE DO KNOW, and they contradict what YOU BELIEVE. If you are faced with factual info or beliefs, why do you choose the beliefs? They are inferior to factual knowledge.

AGAIN...explain to me how your belief that there is another dimension of existence and that you are just guessing about it is any different than your belief that God exists. Please discuss any evidence for either claim.

[ajk]

Yes I do know that, there is no other way. There can't be.

[theicidal maniac]

When you think about it though the arguments I have made about creation would contradict your arguments would they not?

Yes they would. Most definitely, they would. They contradict my claims but my claims pan out, where yours do not. When you have two claims that cannot both be true, and one can be proven and one can not, which do you choose? I bet that in all other areas of your life you choose the claims that can be proved, all other areas except religious ones, where your brain ceases to function properly or logically.

[ajk]

AGAIN...explain to me how your belief that there is another dimension of existence and that you are just guessing about it is any different than your belief that God exists. Please discuss any evidence for either claim.

Because again, I may not know neccessarily how that dimension works or how God was always there, but just because I don't know the full story does not mean it isn't true. One day we will know the full story, but for now it is what it is.

[ajk]

Yes they would. Most definitely, they would. They contradict my claims but my claims pan out, where yours do not. When you have two claims that cannot both be true, and one can be proven and one can not, which do you choose? I bet that in all other areas of your life you choose the claims that can be proved, all other areas except religious ones, where your brain ceases to function properly or logically.

This has nothing to do with logic. It's simple common sense as I've been trying to say. There cannot be something in this universe without something to give it life. It would be impossible for that to happen.