Evidence that Jesus Existed.

[Ausinus]

Guess what, there is evidence that Jesus existed. But the christians still dont like it. Wanna know why?

Celsus, a fiercly anti christian philosopher, wrote about a man in Judaea called Jesus. He said that Jesus was the son of an affair between a woman called Mary and a roman legionary with an uncommon name (I forget what it was). Guess what, they found a grave marker with the legionary's name on it in germany, and its dating is consistent with the historical dates of Jesus.

EDIT: His name was Pandera, and he was from Sidon, but was serving in Judaea.

[General Septem]

That's interesting. Some guy came up with a story about some guy who died around the time Jesus was born, and you're calling that evidence.

But four Gospels written by friends of Jesus don't mean shit to you.

[Ausinus]

That's interesting. Some guy came up with a story about some guy who died around the time Jesus was born, and you're calling that evidence.

But four Gospels written by friends of Jesus don't mean shit to you.

Nope, because we actually have archaeological evidence to support Celsus' claims.

[General Septem]

Nope, because we actually have archaeological evidence to support Celsus' claims.

Yes, but no evidence that Celsus hadn't already seen the body of this legionary and his tombstone and made up the story just to be an asshole. We already know he was biased; he hated Christians, remember.

[Ausinus]

Yes, but no evidence that Celsus hadn't already seen the body of this legionary and his tombstone and made up the story just to be an asshole. We already know he was biased; he hated Christians, remember.


Yeah, he would really have seen a tombstone in an estate in Germany from his nice comfy house in southern Greece.

[theicidal maniac]

That's interesting. Some guy came up with a story about some guy who died around the time Jesus was born, and you're calling that evidence.

But four Gospels written by friends of Jesus don't mean shit to you.

Well, 2 of those friends never even mention that Jesus is anything other than an average human being...so THAT means something to me. But those books have been translated and edited and altered and abridged so many times that it really isn't right to rely on them too heavily for anything other than anecdotal value.

[General Septem]

Yeah, he would really have seen a tombstone in an estate in Germany from his nice comfy house in southern Greece.

It's just as likely he would've known about the whole thing to begin with from his nice comfy house in southern Greece. And even if he knew about the alleged affair, what the hell would he care, affairs happen all the time. And by the time anyone knew of Jesus it would've been thirty years after it would've happened.

The existence of someone's body is not archaeological evidence of a story about this someone. It would be like saying "George W. Bush was a smart man and saved the world, and there's his tombstone to prove that he existed and it's really true!".

[Ausinus]

It's just as likely he would've known about the whole thing to begin with from his nice comfy house in southern Greece. And even if he knew about the alleged affair, what the hell would he care, affairs happen all the time. And by the time anyone knew of Jesus it would've been thirty years after it would've happened.

The existence of someone's body is not archaeological evidence of a story about this someone. It would be like saying "George W. Bush was a smart man and saved the world, and there's his tombstone to prove that he existed and it's really true!".

The body lends merit to Celsus writings, thats all. It wouldnt have been too hard to interview contemporaries of jesus, and a trip around the Judaea region being made by him is recorded too. Kinda destroys the whole parthenogenesis thing if it is true doesnt it?

[General Septem]

The body lends merit to Celsus writings, thats all. It wouldnt have been too hard to interview contemporaries of jesus, and a trip around the Judaea region being made by him is recorded too. Kinda destroys the whole parthenogenesis thing if it is true doesnt it?

Yeah, except in order for it to have been true there would have to be evidence. The possibility of him having interviewed a few people that might have known their ass from a hole in the ground (and who wouldn't have known anyway because if anyone had, Mary would have been stoned to death immediately) is less valid as evidence than the grave of the legionary. The only "evidence" to anything is the existence of the story itself, but the story itself is not backed by any evidence whatsoever. It's all so incredibly inconclusive that I'm amazed someone of your intellectual calibre would even consider it - but then again, you'd believe anything that went against religion.

[Ausinus]

Yeah, except in order for it to have been true there would have to be evidence. The possibility of him having interviewed a few people that might have known their ass from a hole in the ground (and who wouldn't have known anyway because if anyone had, Mary would have been stoned to death immediately) is less valid as evidence than the grave of the legionary. The only "evidence" to anything is the existence of the story itself, but the story itself is not backed by any evidence whatsoever. It's all so incredibly inconclusive that I'm amazed someone of your intellectual calibre would even consider it - but then again, you'd believe anything that went against religion.

I was entertaining it. I believe that there may be some merit to it, especially since the writing on the grave marker fits in with the story. Plus, Celsus also pus forth that Mary fled to Egypt by herself before Joseph found out.

[General Septem]

I was entertaining it. I believe that there may be some merit to it, especially since the writing on the grave marker fits in with the story. Plus, Celsus also pus forth that Mary fled to Egypt by herself before Joseph found out.

If he knew about the writing on the grave it would be fairly easy to fabricate a story based on it.

[Ausinus]

If he knew about the writing on the grave it would be fairly easy to fabricate a story based on it.

Possible, but there is no indication that he did. All he wrote concerned Pandera was that he was "of Sidon" and a legionary in Judaea. He gave no indication of rank, or where he retired. Surely, wouldnt he direct a reader to said grave?

[General Septem]

Possible, but there is no indication that he did. All he wrote concerned Pandera was that he was "of Sidon" and a legionary in Judaea. He gave no indication of rank, or where he retired. Surely, wouldnt he direct a reader to said grave?

No indication he did, no indication he didn't. It's just a story written by some angry little man which happened to regard someone whose grave was found.

[Ausinus]

No indication he did, no indication he didn't. It's just a story written by some angry little man which happened to regard someone whose grave was found.

Are you sure? :D There may be some validity to it.

[General Septem]

Are you sure? :D There may be some validity to it.

I have no reason to believe there should be. Just because something was written doesn't make it credible.

[Ausinus]

I have no reason to believe there should be. Just because something was written doesn't make it credible.

Then why is the bible any different?

[General Septem]

Then why is the bible any different?

Besides it containing a little more substance than "LOL MARY HAD AN AFFAIR"?

[Ausinus]

Besides it containing a little more substance than "LOL MARY HAD AN AFFAIR"?

You know there's a joke right there but im not going to touch it :D

The substance concerning christ is shrouded in mythology. I personally am not saying he absolutely didnt exist.

[something]

You know there's a joke right there but im not going to touch it :D

The substance concerning christ is shrouded in mythology. I personally am not saying he absolutely didnt exist.

Jesus probably did exist, but he was just one of many messias. For example, a guy named Apollonius could do miracles, make blind people to see, talked about god, get crucified and reveald after he died. Just like jesus, but you never heard about him.

[theicidal maniac]

I have no reason to believe there should be. Just because something was written doesn't make it credible.

Interesting statement from a person who believes the BIBLE!!!!

[freakazoid]

Guess what, there is evidence that Jesus existed. But the christians still dont like it. Wanna know why?

Celsus, a fiercly anti christian philosopher, wrote about a man in Judaea called Jesus. He said that Jesus was the son of an affair between a woman called Mary and a roman legionary with an uncommon name (I forget what it was). Guess what, they found a grave marker with the legionary's name on it in germany, and its dating is consistent with the historical dates of Jesus.

EDIT: His name was Pandera, and he was from Sidon, but was serving in Judaea.

That is an old claim, no serious or respected scholars pay any attention to it. There are hundreds of such legends and claims without any solid proof. I would not pay much attention to it. http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

[theicidal maniac]

That is an old claim, no serious or respected scholars pay any attention to it. There are hundreds of such legends and claims without any solid proof. I would not pay much attention to it. http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon13.gif

Yes. Ther certainly ARE hundreds of such legends and claims without any solid proof. Thousands, even. They are compiled in a book called the Bible. I would not pay much attention to it.