What is so bad about gay marriage?

[MrBirdy]

Seriously, tell me one thing (besides the fact that two males or two females cannot reproduce) that makes gay marriage bad...

[conspiracy]

Here we go again............................................. .................................................. ....................................

[MrJim]

Seriously, tell me one thing (besides the fact that two males or two females cannot reproduce) that makes gay marriage bad...

What is so good about it? Gay couples can qualify for the same things straight married couples can. What's the point? For one thing, who is going to take who's last name? The butchy lesbian or the strong gay guy gives their name away? And since they can't have kids, there is no 'family' to start', so why would any gay people even waste their time? Tax purposes? :confused:

[MrBirdy]

What is so good about it? Gay couples can qualify for the same things straight married couples can. What's the point? For one thing, who is going to take who's last name? The butchy lesbian or the strong gay guy gives their name away? And since they can't have kids, there is no 'family' to start', so why would any gay people even waste their time? Tax purposes? :confused:

YES
pretty much, im just thinking, what do conservatives think is so bad about gay marriage? Gay people should be able to get married (despite me thinking its discusting, but i like to treat others how i expect to be treated) so, why are conservatives trying to makie it illegal?

[conspiracy]

YES
pretty much, im just thinking, what do conservatives think is so bad about gay marriage?

I hate to tell you this but conservatives are not by far the only ones that think that gay marriage is bad. As a collective whole only a small minority of the population think that gay marriage should exist.

[beelzebub]

I hate to tell you this but conservatives are not by far the only ones that think that gay marriage is bad. As a collective whole only a small minority of the population think that gay marriage should exist.

Thats not true. 45% of the population feel that gay people deserve the same rights as heterosexual people, perhaps not the name of marriage but all the rights. 45% is not the VAST portion of the population is is almost half!

And if I am wrong..... so the fuck what? Ever heard of the ignorant masses? Just because the vast majority feels something is right or wrong does not make it truly so.

[MrBirdy]

Thats not true. 45% of the population feel that gay people deserve the same rights as heterosexual people, perhaps not the name of marriage but all the rights. 45% is not the VAST portion of the population is is almost half!

And if I am wrong..... so the fuck what? Ever heard of the ignorant masses? Just because the vast majority feels something is right or wrong does not make it truly so.

I think the quote goes
"what is right, is not always popular, what is popular is not always right"-i cant remember

[MrJim]

Thats not true. 45% of the population feel that gay people deserve the same rights as heterosexual people, perhaps not the name of marriage but all the rights. 45% is not the VAST portion of the population is is almost half!

Actually, it looks to me like where I work, gay people get MORE RIGHTS. My fiancee and I have lived together for about 3 years, bought a house and everything, and my employer said unless we're married, she can't receive company insurance... but if we were GAY she would be on board... wtf... and a lesbian in one dept. here got full-blown benefits for her lover and they didn't even live together... sounds like a discrimination crime against the straight if you ask me. :mad:

[MrBirdy]

Actually, it looks to me like where I work, gay people get MORE RIGHTS. My fiancee and I have lived together for about 3 years, bought a house and everything, and my employer said unless we're married, she can't receive company insurance... but if we were GAY she would be on board... wtf... and a lesbian in one dept. here got full-blown benefits for her lover and they didn't even live together... sounds like a discrimination crime against the straight if you ask me. :mad:

That is wrong!!
thats why we must make gay marriage legal!! (or atleast legal unions with equal benefits to marriage)
this way, only maried copules could get benefits!!

[Ape-Shit]

People deserve the same rights as others. If a Gay Couple (man or woman) are in a relationship in the same state as that of a married couple then they should be allowed all the rights and benefits which the married couple receive.

I could go on and on and on and on. The bottom line is "Gays are People and People deserve the same respect and rights given that of other people".

[conspiracy]

This is exactly why I said earlier

"HERE WE GO AGAIN"".................................................. ...................


I'd like to see the 45% number that supports gay and lesbian unions. I think those numbers are exaggerated. I'd like to see even what a liberal news reporter would make up.

You state if you are wrong so the "fuck what?" That's good.
What the hell is wrong with you? You make a statement and you don't give a shit if it's accurate?

You know what really pisses me off. The average American person today is becoming obsolete. Yes that's right we're a dying breed and you know why.
BECAUSE of all of the immoral things that go on today. Because of the cry babies that don't get their way have to sue because they want what they want. Hey , if you wanna suck dick I certainly don't think that you should receive benefits to do it.

[hitekredneck]

This is exactly why I said earlier

"HERE WE GO AGAIN"".................................................. ...................


I'd like to see the 45% number that supports gay and lesbian unions. I think those numbers are exaggerated. I'd like to see even what a liberal news reporter would make up.

You state if you are wrong so the "fuck what?" That's good.
What the hell is wrong with you? You make a statement and you don't give a shit if it's accurate?

You know what really pisses me off. The average American person today is becoming obsolete. Yes that's right we're a dying breed and you know why.
BECAUSE of all of the immoral things that go on today. Because of the cry babies that don't get their way have to sue because they want what they want. Hey , if you wanna suck dick I certainly don't think that you should receive benefits to do it.

lmfaooo....love this post...i do agree that the "average american" is quickly becoming extinct, simply because we don't rejoice in our heritage or culture...yes, america has it's own culture, but the immigrants, whether legal or not, insist that everybody else partakes of where they came from, i.e. multi-lingual forms, the refusal to make english the official language of the us...that one really pisses me off. :mad:

[MrJim]

This is exactly why I said earlier
You know what really pisses me off. The average American person today is becoming obsolete. Yes that's right we're a dying breed and you know why.
BECAUSE of all of the immoral things that go on today. Because of the cry babies that don't get their way have to sue because they want what they want. Hey , if you wanna suck dick I certainly don't think that you should receive benefits to do it.

Gay and straight is merging together & forming an entire world of these 'metrosexuals'. Then I will have to go everywhere armed. VERY armed.

[General Septem]

Because same-sex marriage is a contradiction in terms unless marriage is redefined. Marriage is a pivotal keystone of the family unit. Families are the core of society.

If you make marriage meaningless, families will fall apart and kids grow up without the guidance that only their family can provide.

Wait a second, that's already happening, though, isn't it? Last thing we need now is to make family structure even weaker.

If they want tax benefits, give it to them, but don't call it a fucking marriage, because it's not. A distinction still needs to be drawn. A distinction between two very good friends that want to see each other in the Intensive Care Unit, and a man and a woman who are raising a family together.

And before you yell "Britney Spears LOL!!!!1111", I didn't say it was just same-sex marriage that's depreciating and redefining marriage.

It's not about "having kids". The relationship is the same whether one or both partners are sterile or not. There's more to a family than merely having kids. It's a relationship.

[MrJim]

Because same-sex marriage is a contradiction in terms unless marriage is redefined. Marriage is a pivotal keystone of the family unit. Families are the core of society.


I agree, without either the nurturing of a mother or a father-figure in a child's life, surely this 'union' could be no better for a kid than having divorced or separated parents. Only with too much of the one type of parent raising the child.

[someday]

am new, the means of making love is demeaning.if no sex was involved it wud b ok

[Ausinus]

What is so good about it? Gay couples can qualify for the same things straight married couples can. What's the point? For one thing, who is going to take who's last name? The butchy lesbian or the strong gay guy gives their name away? And since they can't have kids, there is no 'family' to start', so why would any gay people even waste their time? Tax purposes? :confused:

Various stuff such as visitation rights, next of kin and other stuff.

Anyway either of them can take the last name, its the same with straight couples.

[Ausinus]

I agree, without either the nurturing of a mother or a father-figure in a child's life, surely this 'union' could be no better for a kid than having divorced or separated parents. Only with too much of the one type of parent raising the child.

Bullshit. There is no difference between gay and straight parenting in terms of the outcome due to causual factors.

[Ausinus]

This is exactly why I said earlier

"HERE WE GO AGAIN"".................................................. ...................


I'd like to see the 45% number that supports gay and lesbian unions. I think those numbers are exaggerated. I'd like to see even what a liberal news reporter would make up.

You state if you are wrong so the "fuck what?" That's good.
What the hell is wrong with you? You make a statement and you don't give a shit if it's accurate?

You know what really pisses me off. The average American person today is becoming obsolete. Yes that's right we're a dying breed and you know why.
BECAUSE of all of the immoral things that go on today. Because of the cry babies that don't get their way have to sue because they want what they want. Hey , if you wanna suck dick I certainly don't think that you should receive benefits to do it.

You shouldnt recieve benefits for doing the opposite either then. Equal rights. Anyway homosexuality is only immoral in the views of certain people. It doesnt detriment anyone if done safely and with consent.

[freakazoid]

Because same-sex marriage is a contradiction in terms unless marriage is redefined. Marriage is a pivotal keystone of the family unit. Families are the core of society.

If you make marriage meaningless, families will fall apart and kids grow up without the guidance that only their family can provide.

Wait a second, that's already happening, though, isn't it? Last thing we need now is to make family structure even weaker.

If they want tax benefits, give it to them, but don't call it a fucking marriage, because it's not. A distinction still needs to be drawn. A distinction between two very good friends that want to see each other in the Intensive Care Unit, and a man and a woman who are raising a family together.

And before you yell "Britney Spears LOL!!!!1111", I didn't say it was just same-sex marriage that's depreciating and redefining marriage.

It's not about "having kids". The relationship is the same whether one or both partners are sterile or not. There's more to a family than merely having kids. It's a relationship.


Good post http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[freakazoid]

Gay and straight is merging together & forming an entire world of these 'metrosexuals'. Then I will have to go everywhere armed. VERY armed.

Bring back the days when men wore six shooters! http://forum.bullshit.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

[conspiracy]

Various stuff such as visitation rights, next of kin and other stuff.


Visitation rights? I'm sorry but what visitation rights does a homosexual couple actually deserve? I'm sorry Rosie , Ellen you're wrong. Children need structure. To Homosexuals, if you choose to be gay , NO CHILDREN IS A CONSEQUENCE.
Even if you adopt and share the child (Which is the only way a gay couple can have children together), Think of the confusion that you instill in that child.


Bullshit. There is no difference between gay and straight parenting in terms of the outcome due to causual factors.

No difference? Do you smoke crack?
Picture this , Child of gay couple goes to school , friends have mom and dad . Child has DAD and DAD OR MOM AND MOM. Child in more or less words says WTF! Child is confused beyond belief. Child fights with kids from school. End result ? Child is screwed up forever because the gay couple has forced their relationship. END OF STORY.


You shouldnt recieve benefits for doing the opposite either then. Equal rights. Anyway homosexuality is only immoral in the views of certain people. It doesnt detriment anyone if done safely and with consent.

I suppose that I would expect a person that poses as a woman that's really a man to think this way. Only wrong in certain people's mind, NO..... Wrong in MOST people's mind. Write that down. Make a copy and put it on you mirror. You wanna be GAY , then FINE. Please , PLEASE don't even TRY to make the rest of the population accept it. Why in fuck sake would or should it be right that a gay couple that can't produce children would want to BUCK nature. This isn't even a religious topic. EVEN IF gay people could have children 1% of time , which they can't , then maybe ,MAYBE , it should be a topic. You want they science aspect , ok fine , NEWS FLASH!!! HOMOSEXUAL COUPLES TOGETHER ARE STERILE. Leave the adoptions to those whom try and because of medical problems can't have kids.

[Ausinus]

Visitation rights? I'm sorry but what visitation rights does a homosexual couple actually deserve? I'm sorry Rosie , Ellen you're wrong. Children need structure. To Homosexuals, if you choose to be gay , NO CHILDREN IS A CONSEQUENCE.
Even if you adopt and share the child (Which is the only way a gay couple can have children together), Think of the confusion that you instill in that child.

I mean as in hospital visitation.



No difference? Do you smoke crack?
Picture this , Child of gay couple goes to school , friends have mom and dad . Child has DAD and DAD OR MOM AND MOM. Child in more or less words says WTF! Child is confused beyond belief. Child fights with kids from school. End result ? Child is screwed up forever because the gay couple has force their relationship. END OF STORY.

If a child is confused, explain it to them. Its not that hard. The only "confusion" otherwise is when religious fuckers go around slandering homosexuals. Then you can explain to children that many religious people are filthy bigots and are not to be believed.


I suppose that I would expect a person that poses as a woman that's really a man to think this way. Only wrong in certain people's mind, NO..... Wrong in MOST people's mind. Write that down. Make a copy and put it on you mirror. You wanna be GAY , then FINE. Please , PLEASE don't even TRY to make the rest of the population accept it. Why in fuck sake would or should it be right that a gay couple that can't produce children would want to BUCK nature. This isn't even a religious topic. EVEN IF gay people could have children 1% of time , which they can't , then maybe ,MAYBE , it should be a topic. You want they science aspect , ok fine , NEWS FLASH!!! HOMOSEXUAL COUPLES TOGETHER ARE STERILE. Leave the adoptions to those whom try and because of medical problems can't have kids.

Have you seen the number of children in orphanages and institutions these days - even without gay adoptions, there are far more needy children than sterile couples. I would rather have these children receive love and care by two loving indidivuals.

Here's a marvellous idea: Why don't you go fuck yourself?

Any two consenting adults should be able to have a legal union. My proposal is to strike the term marriage from the legislation and give ALL unions (civil or religious) equal legal rights.

[General Septem]

Have you seen the number of children in orphanages and institutions these days - even without gay adoptions, there are far more needy children than sterile couples. I would rather have these children receive love and care by two loving indidivuals.

Here's a marvellous idea: Why don't you go fuck yourself?

Or you could stop discouraging people from having more than two kids.

See, I'm more proactive than you. You hurl insults, and I make recommendations. To put it another way, as The Pirate Bay's anakata put it:

Instead of simply recommending that you sodomize yourself with a
retractable baton, let me recommend a specific model - the ASP 21". The
previous lawyers tried to use a cheaper brand, but it broke during the
action.

[Ausinus]

Or you could stop discouraging people from having more than two kids.

See, I'm more proactive than you. You hurl insults, and I make recommendations. To put it another way, as The Pirate Bay's anakata put it:

Instead of simply recommending that you sodomize yourself with a
retractable baton, let me recommend a specific model - the ASP 21". The
previous lawyers tried to use a cheaper brand, but it broke during the
action.


:D Lol. General, I know that you at least are a moral person. Wouldnt you allow gay people to have some form of legal union?

[General Septem]

:D Lol. General, I know that you at least are a moral person. Wouldnt you allow gay people to have some form of legal union?

If tax benefits and hospital visitation rights would get them to shut up, then sure. But a distinction will be made between same-sex unions and marriages. The marital bond has a different position in society than two men or two women could ever have, and this position is important to how our society works.

[Ausinus]

If tax benefits and hospital visitation rights would get them to shut up, then sure. But a distinction will be made between same-sex unions and marriages. The marital bond has a different position in society than two men or two women could ever have, and this position is important to how our society works.

Personally I dont think "marriage" should appear in the legislation at all. So just give equal legal rights to any form of legal union, civil or religious. ^_^

[General Septem]

Personally I dont think "marriage" should appear in the legislation at all. So just give equal legal rights to any form of legal union, civil or religious. ^_^

Matrimony maybe, but marriage should be in legislature if anything is.

The two should not be equal because they don't have the same role in society. Like it or not, they never will.

[Ausinus]

Matrimony maybe, but marriage should be in legislature if anything is.

The two should not be equal because they don't have the same role in society. Like it or not, they never will.

Thats as may be at this point in time, however marriage is a religious institution except for civil marriages/unions/whatever. Therefore, it should not appear in the legislation.

I don't see why marriage and civil unions are any different apart from gender and sexual preference - if any perquisites are given they should be given only when children come into the picture. Which may not even be necessary for unions, the issue simply being that marriage/unions and children are not inseperable things.

[ajk]

The gender and sexual preference is exactly why the two are different. Men and women together are the only ones that can create new life naturally. Two men or two women cannot.

[theicidal maniac]

The gender and sexual preference is exactly why the two are different. Men and women together are the only ones that can create new life naturally. Two men or two women cannot.

So what about people who fall somewhere in between? Hermaphrodites, asexuals, transgender, that sort of thing? Where do they fit into your Black/White worldview? The funny thing is, AJK, when you've been raised to believe that every issue is black/white, and told not to question that belief, you end up having to ignore the gray areas that DO exist. There are tons of things that you have to pretend don't exist at all, in order to hold on to your belief system.

You asked on another post how the sexes could have evolved since humans can't breed without one of each sex, but there are obvious intermediate steps that I can point to; (I'm pulling this information directly from my Biology 1010 curriculum and rewording it...THIS IS BASIC BIOLOGY that you can look up and study, if you so choose)

* Single celled organisms reproduce by mitosis, showing that sex is not necesarry for reproduction in lower organisms
* plants such as the pea plant fertilize themselves, showing that sexual partners are not a necessity in nature
* In humans XX chromosomes bring about females and XY are male
* In birds it's just the opposite; XX is male and XY is female, showing that this rule can be subject to change
* Male bees only have one set of chromosomes (like a human sperm or a human egg) but female bees carry two sets of chromosomes (like a human being or any other mammal or mammalian cell [excluding sperm and eggs]) showing that DNA isn't always passed on the same way in every organism
* In some alligators, turtles and lizards the sexual gender of the fetus is always male at first, but high temperatures during incubation cause hormonal imbalances that actually cause the embryo to become female, showing that genes aren't the only determiner of sexual gender
* Shrimp, orchids, and some tropical fish have the ability to change gender in mid-life; males can become females and vice versa to keep up with breeding demand showing that gender is not static
* Male boat shell snails can become female if they can't find a mate in their present location showing that organisms can adapt to the demands of the environment
* The female African reed frog can become a male to maximize breeding, allowing the fittest to survive

In humans, males are basically females that are missing some genetic information. The sex chromosomes are called the X and the Y. X has over 1400 genes, the Y has about 200. Only males and hermaphrodites have a Y chromosome. If you look at males and females, we both have nipples, even though men don't use them. WHY??? If you look at the male and the female reproductive system you can see striking similarities; the penis is an enlarged clitoris, the scrotum is basically the labia that has sealed shut (notice the line down the center of the scrotum). The falopian tubes are the seminiferous vescicles. Each male and female has TWO GONADS, testes for a man, ovaries for a woman. ALL OF THESE TRAITS BEGIN TO DEVELOP BEFORE AN EMBRYO HAS STARTED TO BECOME MALE OR FEMALE. Male parts are altered female parts; we all started from the same spot. It makes PERFECT sense that SEXUAL GENDER is an evolutionary feature.

[conspiracy]

I mean as in hospital visitation.




If a child is confused, explain it to them. Its not that hard. The only "confusion" otherwise is when religious fuckers go around slandering homosexuals. Then you can explain to children that many religious people are filthy bigots and are not to be believed.



Have you seen the number of children in orphanages and institutions these days - even without gay adoptions, there are far more needy children than sterile couples. I would rather have these children receive love and care by two loving indidivuals.

Here's a marvellous idea: Why don't you go fuck yourself?

Any two consenting adults should be able to have a legal union. My proposal is to strike the term marriage from the legislation and give ALL unions (civil or religious) equal legal rights.Have you seen the number of children in orphanages and institutions these days - even without gay adoptions, there are far more needy children than sterile couples. I would rather have these children receive love and care by two loving indidivuals.

Explain to children that Adam and Steve can and should be able to get married? FUCK NO! I've said this before and I'll say it again......... If you want to suck a dick or munch carpet that's your choice. You want to twist the facts of morality around and say only the religious fuckers say that then you couldn't be further from the truth. Why are you bringing religion into it? Is that your ace in the hole that it should be ok? Morality is more than a religious pretense and if you want to fight that one, then hell I guess you could commit any crime. I mean since "Thou Shalt NOT Murder" is only a religious thing , we should be able to kill if we want. Who cares what those religious freaks say.
Religious people are filthy bigots? Most of them aren't the ones sodomizing their gay lovers. Again you blame it on the religious person. Whatever......

The number of children in orphanages is sad , and it isn't the point isn't what the poor homeless children deserve. The issue is what a homosexual couple deserves and it isn't children.

And lastly my favorite "GO FUCK MYSELF?" No thanks I'm married to a woman and my wife can take care of that for me.

[MrJim]

Bullshit. There is no difference between gay and straight parenting in terms of the outcome due to causual factors.

You obviously have no conscience if you think a child should be subject to a life with gay parents. But you seem to lacking there on a number of issues, this is just one of the worst.



Here's a marvellous idea: Why don't you go fuck yourself?

Any two consenting adults should be able to have a legal union. My proposal is to strike the term marriage from the legislation and give ALL unions (civil or religious) equal legal rights.

Here's a better idea:
Don't move to country if you don't like the laws that govern it. I have a strong feeling that if you moved to Russia with a proposal for their government's legislation, they would be telling YOU to go fuck yourself. Shortly before the execution, of course.

[something]

Here's a better idea:
Don't move to country if you don't like the laws that govern it. I have a strong feeling that if you moved to Russia with a proposal for their government's legislation, they would be telling YOU to go fuck yourself. Shortly before the execution, of course.

Maybe he just want to improve the country if the laws sucks?

[Ape-Shit]

If you are a human being and the laws discriminate, then the laws Suck!:p But one must be careful, cause the law makers might suck too.:p

[Ausinus]

Explain to children that Adam and Steve can and should be able to get married? FUCK NO! I've said this before and I'll say it again......... If you want to suck a dick or munch carpet that's your choice. You want to twist the facts of morality around and say only the religious fuckers say that then you couldn't be further from the truth. Why are you bringing religion into it? Is that your ace in the hole that it should be ok? Morality is more than a religious pretense and if you want to fight that one,
then hell I guess you could commit any crime.

No, because most crimes are actually non religious in origin.


I mean since "Thou Shalt NOT Murder" is only a religious thing , we should be able to kill if we want. Who cares what those religious freaks say.

Laws against murder are not religious in origin.


Religious people are filthy bigots? Most of them aren't the ones sodomizing their gay lovers. Again you blame it on the religious person. Whatever......

I said SOME. Jeez, actually read my post.


The number of children in orphanages is sad , and it isn't the point isn't what the poor homeless children deserve. The issue is what a homosexual couple deserves and it isn't children.

That is your opinion.


And lastly my favorite "GO FUCK MYSELF?" No thanks I'm married to a woman and my wife can take care of that for me.

Oh, and please don't assume that Im gay. That is only half true.

[Ausinus]

You obviously have no conscience if you think a child should be subject to a life with gay parents. But you seem to lacking there on a number of issues, this is just one of the worst.

There is no evidence to suggest gay parenting is any worse than straight parenting. In fact, there are many straight couples who shouldnt be allowed to parent. They should be judged on individual merit rather than broadbrushing.

The really big detrimental sort of parenting seems to be single parenting; this is due to lack of parental care and supervision that the child would otherwise have under normal circcumstances.

[starry123nights]

People deserve the same rights as others. If a Gay Couple (man or woman) are in a relationship in the same state as that of a married couple then they should be allowed all the rights and benefits which the married couple receive.

I could go on and on and on and on. The bottom line is "Gays are People and People deserve the same respect and rights given that of other people".

I agree. I don't think that we should change a marriage license to a union licenst though, just let gay people have a MARRIAGE license too.

[MrJim]

The really big detrimental sort of parenting seems to be single parenting; this is due to lack of parental care and supervision that the child would otherwise have under normal circcumstances.

You seriously suggest that gay parents would be better than single parenting?! That's ludicrous. Prove it to me. Name an example.

[beelzebub]

I think the quote goes
"what is right, is not always popular, what is popular is not always right"-i cant remember

What s Popular is Not Always Right, and What s Right is Not Always Popular. Hipparchus. 100s BC,

RIGHT ON ... its nice to have someone who gets what i am saying. :D

[Ausinus]

You seriously suggest that gay parents would be better than single parenting?! That's ludicrous. Prove it to me. Name an example.

Here are some studies whichconfirms that.

http://www.aclu.org/images/asset_upload_file130_27496.pdf
http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200214.pdf

The general consensus amongst the scientific community is that single parented children tend to fare worse than two parent households.

[Ausinus]

The gender and sexual preference is exactly why the two are different. Men and women together are the only ones that can create new life naturally. Two men or two women cannot.

That is no reason for denying them equal legal union rights - reproductive capability has never been sufficient grounds for denying two consenting adults to legally join.

[ajk]

Then why has it not happened?

[Ausinus]

Then why has it not happened?

Archaic and somewhat obsolete discriminatory values interfere with that process.

[General Septem]

Here are some studies whichconfirms that.

http://www.aclu.org/images/asset_upload_file130_27496.pdf
http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200214.pdf

The general consensus amongst the scientific community is that single parented children tend to fare worse than two parent households.

Shame nobody has the balls to say that they fare even better when it's a mother and a father, and not two mothers. Of course even those with the balls, it would be against their own personal agenda.

[Ausinus]

Shame nobody has the balls to say that they fare even better when it's a mother and a father, and not two mothers. Of course even those with the balls, it would be against their own personal agenda.

I take it you actually didnt read these studies. They also confirm that the outcome of gay and straight parenting is the same - there are no causual differences same for lifestyle uniqueness.

[General Septem]

I take it you actually didnt read these studies. They also confirm that the outcome of gay and straight parenting is the same - there are no causual differences same for lifestyle uniqueness.

Too bad nobody without a fucking agenda who hasn't already made a conclusion and is just looking for evidence to support their conclusion would report a similar study.

[Ausinus]

Too bad nobody without a fucking agenda who hasn't already made a conclusion and is just looking for evidence to support their conclusion would report a similar study.

I don't think the American Psychological Organization has a pre-concluded agenda about gay parenting. The ACLU might, however their study is also regarded as valid by the APO.

[General Septem]

I don't think the American Psychological Organization has a pre-concluded agenda about gay parenting.

I'm glad people are making decisions based on studies done by those whom you think doesn't have a preconcluded agenda.

[Ausinus]

I'm glad people are making decisions based on studies done by those whom you think doesn't have a preconcluded agenda.

Come on, what possible reason could they have? I'm glad people arent making conclusions based on paranoia.

[General Septem]

Come on, what possible reason could they have?

Beats me. A lot of straight people are all "LOL SUPPRT LUV" with no conceivable reason to even care.

Actually, you fit that bill too. What possible reason do you have?

Want to know what I think? I think it's because some people just like the attention associated with raising all hell over what others may see and interpret as noble reasons. If the popular movement was to stop the discrimination against Christianity, you'd be all over that shit too, not because you care but because it gives you (and others like you) a sense of self gratification.

[beelzebub]

I'm glad people are making decisions based on studies done by those whom you think doesn't have a preconcluded agenda.

Its amazing! You are so horrible! When something conflicts with your narrow view of life and the world and you cant tear the work apart you try to undermine it.

I have noticed this pattern in every "argument" you have made. DO you ever learn?

[Ausinus]

Beats me. A lot of straight people are all "LOL SUPPRT LUV" with no conceivable reason to even care.

Actually, you fit that bill too. What possible reason do you have?

Want to know what I think? I think it's because some people just like the attention associated with raising all hell over what others may see and interpret as noble reasons. If the popular movement was to stop the discrimination against Christianity, you'd be all over that shit too, not because you care but because it gives you (and others like you) a sense of self gratification.

Well you are completely wrong. I have two reasons. 1) I may wish to raise children with a same sex partner myself one day, and 2) I believe in equal rights and liberties for all people. This includes the right to a legal union.

[General Septem]

Well you are completely wrong. I have two reasons. 1) I may wish to raise children with a same sex partner myself one day, and 2) I believe in equal rights and liberties for all people. This includes the right to a legal union.

I believe in equal rights too - that is why I have no problem with any single adult male marrying any unrelated single adult consenting female. Everyone has this right whether they are gay or not. Gays are just pissed because they want a right nobody has.

[Ausinus]

I believe in equal rights too - that is why I have no problem with any single adult male marrying any unrelated single adult consenting female. Everyone has this right whether they are gay or not. Gays are just pissed because they want a right nobody has.

Well that is only valid if you apply a distinction between the two - which is not applicable in terms of the rights of people. I am talking about rights that are universal for all people here - one of these is the right for a consenting adult to marry another consenting adult.

[General Septem]

Well that is only valid if you apply a distinction between the two - which is not applicable in terms of the rights of people. I am talking about rights that are universal for all people here - one of these is the right for a consenting adult to marry another consenting adult.

But in so doing you claim there is no difference between men and women, which used to be an absurd assertion.

[ajk]

Well that is only valid if you apply a distinction between the two - which is not applicable in terms of the rights of people. I am talking about rights that are universal for all people here - one of these is the right for a consenting adult to marry another consenting adult.

Marriage IS a universal right for all people. It's only when you change the definition of marriage that you lose that right you would otherwise have.

[Ausinus]

But in so doing you claim there is no difference between men and women, which used to be an absurd assertion.

There shouldnt be any difference apart from those few truisms in the eyes of the law.

[Ausinus]

Marriage IS a universal right for all people. It's only when you change the definition of marriage that you lose that right you would otherwise have.

Marriage is not a universal right if the definition is not universal. Anyway I am not talking about marriage I am talking about a legal union.

[beelzebub]

I believe in equal rights too - that is why I have no problem with any single adult male marrying any unrelated single adult consenting female. Everyone has this right whether they are gay or not. Gays are just pissed because they want a right nobody has.

I believe that everyone has the right to marriage. Gays Lesbians and STR8's

I also believe that YOU don't have the right to force others to accept your narrow and exclusive viewpoint THANK GOD!

I think you just get pissed because you know we are right and you are dead wrong. Furthermore; you take morbid glee at poking fun at us who are victims of social injustice.

You and Strom Thurman have a lot in common.

[General Septem]

There shouldnt be any difference apart from those few truisms in the eyes of the law.

In terms of what rights men have and what rights women have, you're right. But marriage is "of the opposite sex" no matter what colour, gender, or orientation you are. Therefore it is not discriminatory.

[ajk]

I think you just get pissed because you know we are right and you are dead wrong.


Actually I might say it's the exact opposite.

[Ausinus]

In terms of what rights men have and what rights women have, you're right. But marriage is "of the opposite sex" no matter what colour, gender, or orientation you are. Therefore it is not discriminatory.

Once again, I am talking about legal unions here - not marriage.

[beelzebub]

Actually I might say it's the exact opposite.

Please go to a forum for kiddies.

[General Septem]

I believe that everyone has the right to marriage. Gays Lesbians and STR8's

Yep, gays and lesbians too. Any single adult male can marry any unrelated and consenting single adult female. Gays, lesbians, or straight.


Furthermore; you take morbid glee at poking fun at us who are victims of social injustice.

Fuck you. Tell twenty people you're a Christian and see who's the victim of social fucking injustice. I'm always apprehensive about telling my friends I'm Christian until I've known them for months or know they're Christian too. At least you enjoy the comfort of it being socially unacceptable to disagree with your agenda.

[MrJim]

Here are some studies whichconfirms that.

http://www.aclu.org/images/asset_upload_file130_27496.pdf
http://www.psych.org/edu/other_res/lib_archives/archives/200214.pdf

The general consensus amongst the scientific community is that single parented children tend to fare worse than two parent households.

Okay, you provided the information I wanted, but god damn it's over a hundred pages long, i can only take in so much without going 'shit i could be doing something more fun than this boring shit'.... anyway I read the "2.7% are gay" and "16.3% lesbian" statistic, followed by the long article about David Welgand, and...fuck... i couldn't tell you a)what I think in a lengthy analysis and b) anything else because i'm drinking beelzebub's rum and it is whooping my ass, but as much as I did read is propaganda, let's shorten this down to to a page-by-page analysis (along with your page-by-page analysis of the bible), then I can cover it all page-by-page, because altogether (after 6 fucking pages) it's really just saying compared to standards, gays aren't doing bad, but it's unfair to expect me to read all that shit tonight and tell you everything... it sucks.

[Ausinus]

Please go to a forum for kiddies.

Beelze I disagree with you - no one has the "right" to marriage - because marriage is optional. However, people DO have the right to equality subjuris.

[Ausinus]

Okay, you provided the information I wanted, but god damn it's over a hundred pages long, i can only take in so much without going 'shit i could be doing something more fun than this boring shit'.... anyway I read the "2.7% are gay" and "16.3% lesbian" statistic, followed by the long article about David Welgand, and...fuck... i couldn't tell you a)what I think in a lengthy analysis and b) anything else because i'm drinking beelzebub's rum and it is whooping my ass, but as much as I did read is propaganda, let's shorten this down to to a page-by-page analysis, then I can cover it all page-by-page, because altogether (after 6 fucking pages) it's really just saying compared to standards, gays aren't doing bad, but it's unfair to expect me to read all that shit tonight and tell you everything... it sucks.

Im sorry. Will you forgive me if I send you some more rum? :D

[General Septem]

Once again, I am talking about legal unions here - not marriage.

If you're talking about tax benefits and hospital visitation rights, I've already told you I have no problem with that because that's not marriage. I mean I might have friends someday I'd want to come and see me in the ICU too.

[Ausinus]

If you're talking about tax benefits and hospital visitation rights, I've already told you I have no problem with that because that's not marriage. I mean I might have friends someday I'd want to come and see me in the ICU too.

Well then why the fuck are we arguing? :D Lets laugh at Ann Coulter instead. XD

[beelzebub]

Fuck you. Tell twenty people you're a Christian and see who's the victim of social fucking injustice. I'm always apprehensive about telling my friends I'm Christian until I've known them for months or know they're Christian too.

Whatever GS!?! I say something about how you are taking glee in our social injustice and you start piping off about your x-tian hardships. Do you think you can stop thinking about yourself for a change?

In this posting you profess to be against it and then here:

"Gays are just pissed because they want a right nobody has."

you make fun of us and dare to trivialize our cry of injustice?

[Ausinus]

Whatever GS!?! I say something about how you are taking glee in our social injustice and you start piping off about your x-tian hardships. Do you think you can stop thinking about yourself for a change?

In this posting you profess to be against it and then here:

"Gays are just pissed because they want a right nobody has."

you make fun of us and dare to trivialize our cry of injustice?

The easy way to solve this issue would be to strike marriage from the legislation. ^_^ Its so easy and simple.

[MrJim]

Im sorry. Will you forgive me if I send you some more rum? :D

Yes, please send more rum. Not that i'm forgiving anything you are stating an opinion, just like i will do in the morning, with a hangover, and being pissed...

[beelzebub]

Beelze I disagree with you - no one has the "right" to marriage - because marriage is optional. However, people DO have the right to equality subjuris.

Ok,.. I disagree with you.

Everyone has the right to marriage. Call it what you want "a rose by anyother name would smell...." Its still marriage.

The KEY is that we can marry with or without their consent. All we need now is the financial perks that everyone else gets.

[Ausinus]

Yes, please send more rum. Not that i'm forgiving anything you are stating an opinion, just like i will do in the morning, with a hangover, and being pissed...

Yay, im forgiven. :D

[MrJim]

Yay, im forgiven. :D

You are forgiven, take a bow and sit down...

[Ausinus]

You are forgiven, take a bow and sit down...

:p Never! I will continue to spread the word of the Evil LGBT International Conspiracy :D

[General Septem]

Whatever GS!?! I say something about how you are taking glee in our social injustice and you start piping off about your x-tian hardships. Do you think you can stop thinking about yourself for a change?

I'm trying to empathize with you, you green-blooded Vulcan. But it's very off-pissing to see someone who has 80% of society's approval bitch about social injustice when religion is facing the same shit.


In this posting you profess to be against it and then here:

"Gays are just pissed because they want a right nobody has."

you make fun of us and dare to trivialize our cry of injustice?

Trivialize your cry of injustice? No, I'm saying you're not the only one, and if anything we're the ones being prejudiced against. You'd get fired for praying in school (as a teacher I mean), but not for being gay.

As for the rest of this quote, I had a hard time understanding you. Can you not have so many martinis next time?

[Ausinus]

I'm trying to empathize with you, you green-blooded Vulcan. But it's very off-pissing to see someone who has 80% of society's approval bitch about social injustice when religion is facing the same shit.

We all know religion is a lifestyle option but the jury is still out as to the nature versus nurture of homosexuality.

[MrJim]

We all know religion is a lifestyle option but the jury is still out as to the nature versus nurture of homosexuality.

nature = man & woman have kids, raise them to be functioning members of society.
homosexuality = man & woman don't have kids cause their fudgepackers, move to detroit, then adopt little turds that look like THEM.

[beelzebub]

I'm trying to empathize with you, you green-blooded Vulcan. But it's very off-pissing to see someone who has 80% of society's approval bitch about social injustice when religion is facing the same shit.

Wow!!! I like being all a Vulcan. Spock was my idol.


No, I'm saying you're not the only one, and if anything we're the ones being prejudiced against. You'd get fired for praying in school (as a teacher I mean), but not for being gay.

What planet are you from? I wont get fired where I work now but in my hometown in Tennessee I would have been fired and they would have probably tried to revoke my license. I guess you haven't heard of this initiative in South Carolina to BAN Gay teachers?

http://www.ontheissues.org/states/SC_Civil_Rights.htm


As for the rest of this quote, I had a hard time understanding you. Can you not have so many martinis next time?

I'll try

[beelzebub]

nature = man & woman have kids, raise them to be functioning members of society.
homosexuality = man & woman don't have kids cause their fudgepackers, move to detroit, then adopt little turds that look like THEM.

My little turd does not look like me.

[MrJim]

My little turd does not look like me.

DAMN you gave me too good a rum to retaliate...

[beelzebub]

DAMN you gave me too good a rum to retaliate...

Your crazy... but at least you know know the luxury of good rum.

[MrJim]

Your crazy... but at least you know know the luxury of good rum.

Guilty and Guilty indeed.

[General Septem]

We all know religion is a lifestyle option but the jury is still out as to the nature versus nurture of homosexuality.

So just because it's a choice makes it alright for people to hate us for it?

Knowing what I know, I could never choose not to be religious anyway. I believe what I believe because of experience.

[beelzebub]

Because same-sex marriage is a contradiction in terms unless marriage is redefined. Marriage is a pivotal keystone of the family unit. Families are the core of society.

Will you grow up and stop quoting the x-tian banner against gay marriage?
Gay Marriage is not a contradiction in terms.
Marriage goes not drive our economy, pay taxes or feed us. These are cores of our society plain and simple.


If you make marriage meaningless, families will fall apart and kids grow up without the guidance that only their family can provide.

WRONG: STR8 people have already fucked up marriage and the world goes on.


If they want tax benefits, give it to them, but don't call it a fucking marriage, because it's not. A distinction still needs to be drawn. A distinction between two very good friends that want to see each other in the Intensive Care Unit, and a man and a woman who are raising a family together.

I don't care. You get caught up in names. Like I said: "A rose by any other name would smell as sweet." You are silly to think that Gay Marriage will weaken anything.

Once again you belittle our stance. I am raising a family with my partner.


It's not about "having kids". The relationship is the same whether one or both partners are sterile or not. There's more to a family than merely having kids. It's a relationship.

Narrow minded view.

[General Septem]

Marriage goes not drive our economy, pay taxes or feed us. These are cores of our society plain and simple.

Those are not cores of society, they are maintainers of society. The core of society is what shapes the people, and that is family and education, but family first.

It's been proven that children that eat dinner with their parents generally are less likely to get involved in crime, and will have better grades in school.

[beelzebub]

Those are not cores of society, they are maintainers of society. The core of society is what shapes the people, and that is family and education, but family first.

It's been proven that children that eat dinner with their parents generally are less likely to get involved in crime, and will have better grades in school.

I disagree these are as fundamental as anything else: Taxes pay for social services like schools which shape people. Food literally shapes people and social interactions, our economy shapes us through many opportunities that it provides.

STR8 families have given rise to murderers and rapists and other horrible people (Hitler, Stalin, Saddam etc..) Families that eat together are not perfect. It's love that makes the difference.

[General Septem]

I disagree these are as fundamental as anything else: Taxes pay for social services like schools which shape people. Food literally shapes people and social interactions, our economy shapes us through many opportunities that it provides.

None of which are the core of society. The core of society is the people. Food is a necessity. Ethnic cuisine is shaped by the people who cook it, not the other way around. But families are where people are born and raised, and it is from their family that people go into society. Family and education shape people. The taxes that pay for education do not; they are merely necessities to ensure the existence of education, shaped by the people that run the educational system. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're not talking about the same thing I am.


STR8 families have given rise to murderers and rapists and other horrible people (Hitler, Stalin, Saddam etc..) Families that eat together are not perfect. It's love that makes the difference.

I never said straight families were perfect, but a family with the balance of both maternal and paternal influence is a hell of a lot better to raise a kid in than two men or two women. Children need influence from both genders, and there is a difference between men and women whether you like it or not.

[beelzebub]

None of which are the core of society. The core of society is the people. Food is a necessity. Ethnic cuisine is shaped by the people who cook it, not the other way around. But families are where people are born and raised, and it is from their family that people go into society. Family and education shape people. The taxes that pay for education do not; they are merely necessities to ensure the existence of education, shaped by the people that run the educational system. I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying you're not talking about the same thing I am.

I know what you are talking about and I see it as two legitimate ways to look at the same dynamic. I don't think you or I are totally correct. Its more than like a combination of several factors that we have listed. The MAIN thing that I disagree with you about is you say that THE ONLY CORE OF society is the family. That is a tactic used by anti-homosexual people to "prove their point". Thats is just not the way it is. There are several events/things that are the core.


I never said straight families were perfect, but a family with the balance of both maternal and paternal influence is a hell of a lot better to raise a kid in than two men or two women. Children need influence from both genders, and there is a difference between men and women whether you like it or not.

Thats an ignorant and narrowminded statement. You cant prove what you have stated about SRT8 families over gay families. Ausinus has proven that you are wrong. I myself have read many studies of children raised by homosexual parents that are productive, well-balanced members of society and more importantly they are good people who love others and respect diversity (unlike yourself).

It would appear that you have a lot of growing up to do.

[yea_thats_right1]

my view on this goes something like this:

If you dont like it ... simply dont do it. Most of the people opposed to it are afraid that they will become gay or are homophobic... who gives a shit? if your not gay then you dont have to marry within your sex... oh and homos have been around since before jesus. So dont gimme that "sexual revolution ruined everything" bullshit okay? A few gays getting hitched is not going to change the world.

[General Septem]

I know what you are talking about and I see it as two legitimate ways to look at the same dynamic. I don't think you or I are totally correct. Its more than like a combination of several factors that we have listed. The MAIN thing that I disagree with you about is you say that THE ONLY CORE OF society is the family. That is a tactic used by anti-homosexual people to "prove their point". Thats is just not the way it is. There are several events/things that are the core.

Ever heard of a straw-man argument? I never said it was the only core. I even said to the contrary. The core of society is the people, and what shapes them. Education and family shape the people of society, but family more so.


Thats an ignorant and narrowminded statement. You cant prove what you have stated about SRT8 families over gay families. Ausinus has proven that you are wrong. I myself have read many studies of children raised by homosexual parents that are productive, well-balanced members of society and more importantly they are good people who love others and respect diversity (unlike yourself).

How the hell can you respect diversity if the main diversity - gender - is completely absent from the household?

[theicidal maniac]

Ever heard of a straw-man argument? I never said it was the only core. I even said to the contrary. The core of society is the people, and what shapes them. Education and family shape the people of society, but family more so.



How the hell can you respect diversity if the main diversity - gender - is completely absent from the household?

That's like saying that you can't respect people of other races unless you have an interracial family.

Sure, being raised in a gay parent household might make you mal-adjusted to a straight society, but the old paradigm is dissolving. Basically your argument is that straight marriage and families are important because they perpetuate straight marriage and families, you've said nothing about the merit of homo- or heterosexual relationships. Gay households are weird to you because you didn't come from one. You spend a little time around those people and you'll realize a few things; they are people, just like me and you, and they aren't contageous.

[ajk]

my view on this goes something like this:
A few gays getting hitched is not going to change the world.

Not true, in fact the whole gay revolution has in fact changed this world bit by bit over the years. It makes it that much harder to try and raise kids properly without exposing them to crap like this. So to say it won't change the world is completely and totally wrong.

[General Septem]

Sure, being raised in a gay parent household might make you mal-adjusted to a straight society, but the old paradigm is dissolving. Basically your argument is that straight marriage and families are important because they perpetuate straight marriage and families, you've said nothing about the merit of homo- or heterosexual relationships. Gay households are weird to you because you didn't come from one. You spend a little time around those people and you'll realize a few things; they are people, just like me and you, and they aren't contageous.

I never said gay couples produce de facto gay children. I said they are incapable of providing the influence a child needs, which is both a feminine and masculine influence. Until we become hermaphroditic, this will always matter.

[MrJim]

I never said gay couples produce de facto gay children. I said they are incapable of providing the influence a child needs, which is both a feminine and masculine influence. Until we become hermaphroditic, this will always matter.

This sounds like the same thing the pastor doing our wedding was talking to us about during the marriage counseling ordeal. Only he was talking to us about both of us working and switching day & night shifts to take care of the kids. He said that a child needs the nurtering side of the mother constantly and basically disapproved of us switching off, which I didn't agree with, since that still beats us not having any money to raise kids and them living a shitty life in a poor brokedown family. But, yes, having role models of both genders I believe IS very important.

[Ausinus]

This sounds like the same thing the pastor doing our wedding was talking to us about during the marriage counseling ordeal. Only he was talking to us about both of us working and switching day & night shifts to take care of the kids. He said that a child needs the nurtering side of the mother constantly and basically disapproved of us switching off, which I didn't agree with, since that still beats us not having any money to raise kids and them living a shitty life in a poor brokedown family. But, yes, having role models of both genders I believe IS very important.

Not necessarily. I would think that it would be more about parental care and supervision rather than gender.

[Ausinus]

Not true, in fact the whole gay revolution has in fact changed this world bit by bit over the years. It makes it that much harder to try and raise kids properly without exposing them to crap like this. So to say it won't change the world is completely and totally wrong.

"Properly" in your view means brainwashing them into thinking homosexuality doesnt exist.

The only way it changed the world is guaranteeing freedom to pursue happiness.

[MrJim]

Not necessarily. I would think that it would be more about parental care and supervision rather than gender.

Umm... okay... when it's time to be fed, does a baby want its mommy or...

http://www.adverbox.com/media/campaigns/agencies/oliviero_toscani/gay_3.jpg

[ajk]

"Properly" in your view means brainwashing them into thinking homosexuality doesnt exist.


No, obviously we all know it exists, as my kids would. However, I would like to be able to explain homosexuality to them on my terms, and when I feel the time is right to do so. These days that's almost an impossibility.

[Ausinus]

No, obviously we all know it exists, as my kids would. However, I would like to be able to explain homosexuality to them on my terms, and when I feel the time is right to do so. These days that's almost an impossibility.

Oh and what would you explain homosexuality as?

[General Septem]

Oh and what would you explain homosexuality as?

A disorder, like any other.

[Ausinus]

A disorder, like any other.

Can you prove it is a disorder?

[MrJim]

Oh and what would you explain homosexuality as?

homosexuality, n., The state of being emotionally and/or sexually attracted primarily to persons of the same sex. Ex. Watching my two dads' homosexuality made me barf all over the place.

[General Septem]

Can you prove it is a disorder?

The scientific reason seems to be that it's a chemical imbalance in the brain.

[Ausinus]

The scientific reason seems to be that it's a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Ok then - and the scientific reason why this is bad is...............?

[MrJim]

The scientific reason seems to be that it's a chemical imbalance in the brain.

Just like alcholism. :rolleyes:

[General Septem]

Ok then - and the scientific reason why this is bad is...............?

I didn't say it was bad, I said it was a disorder.

[Ausinus]

I didn't say it was bad, I said it was a disorder.

The majority of psychologists and mental health professionals do not regard it as a disorder.

[ajk]

There was a study done on this before with guys who struggle with same sex attractions, and in it 97 percent of them said that the reason they did was because of poor relationships with their fathers. Makes sense really, the guys didn't have much of a male to male relationship with their dads, so they try and find it somewhere else.

[Ausinus]

There was a study done on this before with guys who struggle with same sex attractions, and in it 97 percent of them said that the reason they did was because of poor relationships with their fathers. Makes sense really, the guys didn't have much of a male to male relationship with their dads, so they try and find it somewhere else.

The study to which you refer Bieber's study in 1976, which has since been discredited.

[MrJim]

There was a study done on this before with guys who struggle with same sex attractions, and in it 97 percent of them said that the reason they did was because of poor relationships with their fathers. Makes sense really, the guys didn't have much of a male to male relationship with their dads, so they try and find it somewhere else.

There was this guy I use to work with, I'll just call him 'Big Gay Steve'. Well, Big Gay Steve had been with women before, knocked one up as a matter of fact, one day he just decides he's gotta be gay. So he hooks up with a flamer, and pretty soon he can't make any decisions for himself, everything is a chemical imbalance in his brain.

He's gay, cause it's a chemical imbalance. He can't stop drinking, cause he's an alcoholic and alcoholism is a chemical imbalance. He does drugs, because it's a chemical imbalance that makes him want drugs.

BULL SHIT.

He likes the cock, so he's gay. He likes getting drunk, so he drinks. He likes getting stoned, so he does drugs. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHEMICAL FUCKING IMBALANCE, already.

[ajk]

There's a big shocker. :mad:

(In response to Ausinus BTW)

[Ausinus]

There was this guy I use to work with, I'll just call him 'Big Gay Steve'. Well, Big Gay Steve had been with women before, knocked one up as a matter of fact, one day he just decides he's gotta be gay. So he hooks up with a flamer, and pretty soon he can't make any decisions for himself, everything is a chemical imbalance in his brain.

He's gay, cause it's a chemical imbalance. He can't stop drinking, cause he's an alcoholic and alcoholism is a chemical imbalance. He does drugs, because it's a chemical imbalance that makes him want drugs.

BULL SHIT.

He likes the cock, so he's gay. He likes getting drunk, so he drinks. He likes getting stoned, so he does drugs. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A CHEMICAL FUCKING IMBALANCE, already.

Its actually more due to a cranial variation - similar things have been found to occur in homosexual animals too.

[MrJim]

Its actually more due to a cranial variation - similar things have been found to occur in homosexual animals too.

Sounds more like a cranial deficiency to me.. everything is a weakness, there's no self-control.

[Ausinus]

Sounds more like a cranial deficiency to me.. everything is a weakness, there's no self-control.

No - its not a deficiency, merely a variation. You are an idiot if you think all homosexuals by nature lack self control.

[MrJim]

No - its not a deficiency, merely a variation.

So if everything someone walks up to and says 'hey this is the shit try it' and you give into anything, it's not a lack of self-control? I bet if someone walked up to him and talked about how great pussy is, he'd decide he was straight again... the dumb fuck.

[Ausinus]

So if everything someone walks up to and says 'hey this is the shit try it' and you give into anything, it's not a lack of self-control? I bet if someone walked up to him and talked about how great pussy is, he'd decide he was straight again... the dumb fuck.

He may be an idiot, but I wasnt referring to him the the last post I made.

[MrJim]

He may be an idiot, but I wasnt referring to him the the last post I made.

Then who were you referring to? He's gay, I'm using a gay guy as an example of gay tendencies.

[ajk]

The study to which you refer Bieber's study in 1976, which has since been discredited.

Just how was this discredited may I ask, or why?

[Ausinus]

Then who were you referring to? He's gay, I'm using a gay guy as an example of gay tendencies.

No, assuming all gay people have a lack of self control is idiotic. Unless we are all actually gay by nature, that argument is fallacious.

[Ausinus]

Just how was this discredited may I ask, or why?

Why it was discredited: all psychological studies are placed under peer review. This is the normal thing that is done.

How it was discredited: it was very confused in regards to causuality, there was a discovery of a cranial variation in homosexuals, and the fact that the statistical analysis didnt factor in the rates of homosexuality across cultures or in nature.

[MrJim]

No, assuming all gay people have a lack of self control is idiotic. Unless we are all actually gay by nature, that argument is fallacious.

So I guess I could just claim everything that I do that's ignorant to be a chemical imbalance then. Hey Serena I didn't take out the trash this morning because I have a chemical imbalance. Or, I went to 7-11 and killed everyone, sorry officer I have a chemical imbalance. Bullshit. We control our free will, we do what we WANT, not what is thrust upon us by some bullshit chemical imbalance.

[Ausinus]

So I guess I could just claim everything that I do that's ignorant to be a chemical imbalance then. Hey Serena I didn't take out the trash this morning because I have a chemical imbalance. Or, I went to 7-11 and killed everyone, sorry officer I have a chemical imbalance. Bullshit. We control our free will, we do what we WANT, not what is thrust upon us by some bullshit chemical imbalance.

Or you could actually read the studies that confirm that homosexuality is moreover due to nature rather than dismissing it and comparing it to conscious choices due to prejeduce.

[MrJim]

Or you could actually read the studies that confirm that homosexuality is moreover due to nature rather than dismissing it and comparing it to conscious choices due to prejeduce.

I don't give a fuck about the studies, every gay person I have ever run into has had the opportunity to make a choice and they decided they wanted to be gay. Nature had nothing to do with it.

[Ausinus]

I don't give a fuck about the studies, every gay person I have ever run into has had the opportunity to make a choice and they decided they wanted to be gay. Nature had nothing to do with it.

That is a gross generalisation and you ignore scientific evidence to the contrary in order to spread your views. You could almost be a flat earth theorist.

[MrJim]

That is a gross generalisation and you ignore scientific evidence to the contrary in order to spread your views. You could almost be a flat earth theorist.

No, common sense tells me everything I need to know about anything. I walk into a room with purple carpet and the science guys go 'this test tube says this' and 'this microscan shows this'... it's FUCKING PURPLE. I don't need a bunch of expensive hi-tech crap to show me what's right in front of my eyes.

[ajk]

We all have choices to make in our lives. We can either go one way or the other. Gay people choose to be gay for one reason or another. They aren't born that way or anything like that. They just choose to be that way.

[MrJim]

We all have choices to make in our lives. We can either go one way or the other. Gay people choose to be gay for one reason or another. They aren't born that way or anything like that. They just choose to be that way.

EXACTLY. Otherwise you are claiming we DON'T HAVE free will, which is is the exact same concept that atheism tries to destroy.

[Ausinus]

We all have choices to make in our lives. We can either go one way or the other. Gay people choose to be gay for one reason or another. They aren't born that way or anything like that. They just choose to be that way.

If its so fucking obvious then prove it - without referring to debunked studies. Also how do you explain why the rates of homosexuality are consistent across cultures, or how homosexuality is present in similar rates in nature? Your fallacy can't explain that - whereas I can back up my argument with scientific studies that havent been debunked.

Also, explain why then if homosexuality is a choice, "treatment" for it never works?

[hitekredneck]

If its so fucking obvious then prove it - without referring to debunked studies. Also how do you explain why the rates of homosexuality are consistent across cultures, or how homosexuality is present in similar rates in nature? Your fallacy can't explain that - whereas I can back up my argument with scientific studies that havent been debunked.

Also, explain why then if homosexuality is a choice, "treatment" for it never works?

ok...i've stayed out of this until now, but i just gotta get a few things off my chest...first off, i don't necessarily condone the "gay" lifestyle...that being said, it ain't none of my fuckin business what goes on behind closed doors between consenting adults...secondly, scientific studies have show that homosexuals have a different chemical balance in the brain...not necessarily a cause, but proof to me that it's not necessarily a choice...finally, i'm not sure it fuckin matters if yer a cocksucker or not, there's not enough caring in this cruel world as it is, and you aren't going to get rid of em, so let em be, mang :cool:

[conspiracy]

If its so fucking obvious then prove it - without referring to debunked studies. Also how do you explain why the rates of homosexuality are consistent across cultures, or how homosexuality is present in similar rates in nature? Your fallacy can't explain that - whereas I can back up my argument with scientific studies that havent been debunked.

Also, explain why then if homosexuality is a choice, "treatment" for it never works?

Who exactly gets treatment for being gay? I didn't know you could get a cure for something you choose to do.
Let me guess , you Googled a few intelligent lines from the leading GAY PEOPLE ARE GREAT website and decided, VIOLA! You have something to argue with.
Science , I hate to tell you can be a cesspool of misinformation and just as MISLEADING as your local National Inquirer.

Your carpet may be purple but your facts aren't.

[something]

I don't think it's anyones bussiness who anyone else have sex with. Let them fucking have sex and let 'em get married, it isn't your problem.

[conspiracy]

I don't think it's anyones bussiness who anyone else have sex with. Let them fucking have sex and let 'em get married, it isn't your problem.

That's fine too. I have no problem with this statement to a point. Marriage is another situation altogether though. Here's a good idea if it's no one's business . Keep it out of the media , my life and everywhere elsewhere human rights homosexual assholes cry foul. Keep it behind closed doors , fuck whom you wish and keep the normal people out of it. Keep your mouth shut , fuck that ass and stop whining about marital benefits and things you can't have because your a homo. Stop whining about your health because the choices you have made provoke desease. Stop trying to change the morailty of the human race because you want to kiss your boyfriend or girlfriend in public. Stop trying to adopt children because you can't have any naturally. Basically STOP trying to do the things you normally would have if you wish to be gay.

[General Septem]

The majority of psychologists and mental health professionals do not regard it as a disorder.

The noun disorder has 3 meanings:

Meaning #1: condition in which there is a disturbance of normal functioning
Synonym: upset

Meaning #2: a condition in which things are not in their expected places
Synonym: disorderliness
Antonym: order (meaning #5)

Meaning #3: a disturbance of the peace or of public order


Since people are normally (99% of the time, actually) born straight, being born gay is a disturbance of normal functioning, and therefore a disorder. Unless it's the only defect one can be born with and not considered disordered.


The study to which you refer Bieber's study in 1976, which has since been discredited.

Every study that goes against the mass mentality of all their "peers" gets discredited sooner or later. You can't say Global Warming doesn't exist without your study being discredited, even if the study itself was 100% fact.

Science is dead. It's been replaced by junk science and ass-backward reasoning.


We all have choices to make in our lives. We can either go one way or the other. Gay people choose to be gay for one reason or another. They aren't born that way or anything like that. They just choose to be that way.

Well it is a disorder they're born with, but they're the ones choosing to follow their lust and bend over for each other. It's possible though that in a way, everyone is born with a propensity towards homosexuality, just some much more or less than others.

[ajk]

Possibly, but in the end it still comes down to choice more then anything. We decide our own fate and which way we go.

[MrJim]

If being gay is not a choice, then how come gay people can just decide one day they don't want to be gay anymore, and bisexuals go both ways because they can't decide what they want? Or people that start out straight and then they go gay.

If anything, it probably has to do with a bad experience with someone of a certain gender, which could include both a boy/girlfriend or mother/father.

[hitekredneck]

no,i don't agree with gay marriage...they can call it whatever they want, and i know it's gonna happen no matter what i think or say, but in my humble opinion, the term marriage belongs to a traditional m-f unit...

[yea_thats_right1]

We all have choices to make in our lives. We can either go one way or the other. Gay people choose to be gay for one reason or another. They aren't born that way or anything like that. They just choose to be that way.

do you know that from personal experience? Or is this speculation because of your overpowering catholic veiws? just wondering.

[ajk]

There are some things that are just plain common sense. This would be one of those.

[yea_thats_right1]

Possibly, but in the end it still comes down to choice more then anything. We decide our own fate and which way we go.

really? Do people decide to get cancer? do people decide to get shot, or attaced by dogs? Do people decide to be born with a penis and a vagina?
Im just trying to figure out if you really understand what you say when you make these posts.

[yea_thats_right1]

There are some things that are just plain common sense. This would be one of those. = you have no idea. thanks :)

right right right.... gotcha ;)

[something]

You know, I come up with an idea.

What's so good about heterosexual marige? Marrige was bullshit from the beggining.

[ajk]

Obviously those are completely different things, you know that just as well as I do. In some cases though people could open themselves up to getting shot or getting attacked by a dog though. Same goes for cancer to some degree, if you live a certain way that makes you more susceptible to get it.

[ajk]

= you have no idea. thanks :)

right right right.... gotcha ;)

I don't have to know it from experience. As I said common sense. We decide where we go and what we do in life. No study can disprove that.

[yea_thats_right1]

Obviously those are completely different things, you know that just as well as I do. In some cases though people could open themselves up to getting shot or getting attacked by a dog though. Same goes for cancer to some degree, if you live a certain way that makes you more susceptible to get it.

technically the way you relayed your information, they do relate.

[ajk]

Yeah they do.

[something]

Obviously those are completely different things, you know that just as well as I do. In some cases though people could open themselves up to getting shot or getting attacked by a dog though. Same goes for cancer to some degree, if you live a certain way that makes you more susceptible to get it.

The laws of neurophysiology does not approve that free will is possible. The soul is just a serie of impulses.

[yea_thats_right1]

You know, I come up with an idea.

What's so good about heterosexual marige? Marrige was bullshit from the beggining.

lol, i think marriage (straight or gay) is a wonderful thing! people get married because they make eacother happy, because they want to grow old with one another, share their lives, happy or sad times. If two people want to be together forever, let them.

also, When you make something forbidden (ie. gays want to get married legally, but alas cannot) people want it more and wont shut up untill they get it.... make it legal and they wont be so loud and proud after awhile. ;)

[something]

lol, i think marriage (straight or gay) is a wonderful thing! people get married because they make eacother happy, because they want to grow old with one another, share their lives, happy or sad times. If two people want to be together forever, let them.

also, When you make something forbidden (ie. gays want to get married legally, but alas cannot) people want it more and wont shut up untill they get it.... make it legal and they wont be so loud and proud after awhile. ;)

I didn't say marrige is bad. Just that the idea of having love as a ground for marrige isn't older then a few years.

[ajk]

Free will like or not exists. We are not slaves to ourselves. For instance because of our free will we are able to choose what we eat every day. Same goes with our relationships. We choose who we associate with.

[something]

Free will like or not exists. We are not slaves to ourselves. For instance because of our free will we are able to choose what we eat every day. Same goes with our relationships. We choose who we associate with.

Actually, a study has shown that when 100 people get asked to push a button whenever they wanted, their brains send the message before they decided to push the button.

[ajk]

Does that mean they have to do it? No. They can always choose not to do so.

[yea_thats_right1]

Free will like or not exists. We are not slaves to ourselves. For instance because of our free will we are able to choose what we eat every day. Same goes with our relationships. We choose who we associate with.

i didnt choose to fall in love with my husband... infact.. the night i met him i thought he was a creep and didnt want anything to do with him. lol..

[ajk]

Well obviously there was something there that kept you from just moving on. So yes you did choose to be with him. Maybe not right away, but eventually.

[something]

Does that mean they have to do it? No. They can always choose not to do so.

No. They just think they can, but their body did it.

[yea_thats_right1]

Well obviously there was something there that kept you from just moving on. So yes you did choose to be with him. Maybe not right away, but eventually.

maybe it was subconsious...

[ajk]

Yes but just because their body wants to do it, it doesn't mean they have to listen to it.

[ajk]

maybe it was subconsious...

Maybe but there must have been some reason you stuck around.

[yea_thats_right1]

No. They just think they can, but their body did it.

i believe i heard about the study youre refering too... it was when they made up their mind they were going to push the button their brain sends an impulse to their hand... so they made the decision themselves.. but needed the brain to follow thru with their actions

[ajk]

That would make more sense. The brain simply is there to carry out the decision that has already been agreed upon by the person.

[yea_thats_right1]

Maybe but there must have been some reason you stuck around.

eh.. well after about a month of seeing him every weekend (i have wonderful friends :) ) he was about to leave for kuwait and he grabbed me and kissed me... there was like this instant connection i cant describe it, but i instanly knew he was the one and he felt the same way.... it was weird. lol..

[yea_thats_right1]

That would make more sense. The brain simply is there to carry out the decision that has already been agreed upon by the person.

did we just agree on something?? :eek:

[ajk]

LOL perish the thought :p

[yea_thats_right1]

lol.. . :D

[beelzebub]

Ever heard of a straw-man argument? I never said it was the only core. I even said to the contrary. The core of society is the people, and what shapes them. Education and family shape the people of society, but family more so.

Stupid. You wrote that is "was the core" therefore; due to your emphasis, you implied that it was THE core. When I argued against it you defended your position.Now you say..."I never said..." yet you used it as a defense. Pathetic GS pathetic.


How the hell can you respect diversity if the main diversity - gender - is completely absent from the household?

Ignorance. You think that diversity is based on sex alone. I would assume then that since your household is not as diverse as you proclaim stands as the reason you are ao messed up?

[General Septem]

Stupid. You wrote that is "was the core" therefore; due to your emphasis, you implied that it was THE core. When I argued against it you defended your position.Now you say..."I never said..." yet you used it as a defense. Pathetic GS pathetic.

Maybe you should go back and read what I said again then. I never said it was the only core. The most important one, yes, but not the only one. I've never said this because I've never believed it to be the case.

All I said was that food and taxes are not even close to the core.


Ignorance. You think that diversity is based on sex alone. I would assume then that since your household is not diverse you are messed up?

Gender is the biggest diversity in society. Shit, there's a hell of a lot more of a difference between a white man and a white woman than there is between a white man and a black man.

Of course someone like you probably believes that there is no difference between any two people. Furthermore, the differences between people are to be protected by law (see Orwell's doublethink).

[beelzebub]

I never said it was the only core. The most important one, yes, but not the only one. I've never said this because I've never believed it to be the case.

I read what you wrote differently.


All I said was that food and taxes are not even close to the core.

I disagree.


Gender is the biggest diversity in society. Shit, there's a hell of a lot more of a difference between a white man and a white woman than there is between a white man and a black man.

I disagree. I have seen drastic differences between a White man and an African man. Because of your limited experience you can feel that way.


Of course someone like you probably believes that there is no difference between any two people. Furthermore, the differences between people are to be protected by law (see Orwell's doublethink).

I know there are differences between two people. I dont need to prove that to you, nor you to I.

[Ausinus]

People should be equal under the law except in a few cases such as abortion. Its for this reason I dont approve of laws that vary from state to state.

[ajk]

The thing is in regards to marriage they are equal. It's the choices and decisions made by the person, that makes them unequal.

[Ausinus]

The thing is in regards to marriage they are equal. It's the choices and decisions made by the person, that makes them unequal.

No, it isnt equal. Gay people do not have the ability to make a legal contract of union between them; this is especially unfair since the law shouldnt recognize any sexual preference as a deciding factor.

[ajk]

But again they can get married just the same as anyone else. They are the ones that change that.

[Ausinus]

But again they can get married just the same as anyone else. They are the ones that change that.

Perhaps you havent heard of something called the 14th amendment. That is perfectly grounds enough to legalise gay civil unions nationwide.

The next step is to have the term "marriage" struck from the legislation and replaced with "union" - since all marriages and civil unions should be treated equally as legal contracts subjuris.

Marriage shouldnt even be in the legislation since it is a religious institution.

[General Septem]

No, it isnt equal. Gay people do not have the ability to make a legal contract of union

Sure they can, with a member of the opposite sex.

[beelzebub]

Sure they can, with a member of the opposite sex.

GS you know what he meant. You are so fucking annoying and irritating. All you do when you belabor a discussion like his show your immaturity.

It is not equal. Gay people cannot make a union with the person that they choose to be with.

[something]

I still havent found an answer on the question.

What's so bad about gay marrige?

[beelzebub]

But again they can get married just the same as anyone else. They are the ones that change that.

Your narrow view of marriage is outdated. Gay people will one day have the right to be with each other in a legal union with all the benefits that STR8 people enjoy. It’s just a matter of time.....

Your viewpoint will fall into a despised group of hate-mongers. Your viewpoint is akin to the KKK's view of blacks and the chauvinists view of women.

[beelzebub]

I still havent found an answer on the question.

What's so bad about gay marrige?

Thats because they cant think of one.

[conspiracy]

The bottom line is GAY MARRIAGE contradicts family values. There doesn't have to be a religious fact involved. Family life was based upon mom , dad and children , not dad , dad and children or mom and mom

[something]

The bottom line is GAY MARRIAGE contradicts family values. There doesn't have to be a religious fact involved. Family life was based upon mom , dad and children , not dad , dad and children or mom and mom

BUt all gay people doesn't want children. And there's several gay cupples that have children and there's absolutely nothing wrong with them. And who says that marrige requries chldren? I know a few couple that not even likes children, but they are happy and married anyway.

[beelzebub]

The bottom line is GAY MARRIAGE contradicts family values. There doesn't have to be a religious fact involved. Family life was based upon mom , dad and children , not dad , dad and children or mom and mom

Thats stupid. My relationship does not affect anyone other than the people that I am in the relationship with.

Some families are based on a Mom & Dad and children, some are based on an Aunt and Uncle and children, some are based on Grandparents and children, non-relatives and children, some are based on adoptive parents and children and many do not have children at all.

You tiny & narrow view isn't the only one out there. You view is not respectful of others.

[General Septem]

Thats stupid. My relationship does not affect anyone other than the people that I am in the relationship with.

The products of your family, namely your children, will affect everyone they come in contact with in some form or another.

I am not insinuating that you are a bad father, I am saying that without a mother, the best father in the world cannot provide adequate parenting.


GS you know what he meant.

I know what he meant and responded accordingly, everyone has equal rights because anyone can marry someone of the opposite sex.


It is not equal. Gay people cannot make a union with the person that they choose to be with.

Nor can pedophiles, underaged individuals, incestuous relationships, goat fuckers, sheep fuckers, anyone who wants to marry someone who doesn't want to marry them back, anyone who is married and wants to marry someone else at the same time, ad infinitum. Nobody has the right to just marry whomever they wish.

[theicidal maniac]

Sure you can say that Being raised in a gay family will affect your ability to fit into a straight society, but the opposite is also true. What's the advantage to EITHER way? It's just a matter of choice. If you don't like it, then DON'T DO IT, but for fucks sake, you have no reason to take political action to suppress someone else's choice if it does not affect you.

[beelzebub]

The products of your family... without a mother, the best father in the world cannot provide adequate parenting.

No wonder you are so fucked up. You are being raised without a mother. Right?

Need I remind you of all the very successful people being raised by non-bisexual parents?


I know what he meant and responded accordingly, everyone has equal rights because anyone can marry someone of the opposite sex.

You know what he meant but you refuse to acknowledge his request for same sex marriage. Whether you agree with it or not arguing over the legitimacy of the statement is immature.


Nor can pedophiles, underaged individuals, incestuous relationships, goat fuckers, sheep fuckers, anyone who wants to marry someone who doesn't want to marry them back, anyone who is married and wants to marry someone else at the same time, ad infinitum. Nobody has the right to just marry whomever they wish.

Yes, you pathetic fool but we are talking about 2 consenting, TAXPAYING, adults here.

[starry123nights]

Sure you can say that Being raised in a gay family will affect your ability to fit into a straight society, but the opposite is also true. What's the advantage to EITHER way? It's just a matter of choice. If you don't like it, then DON'T DO IT, but for fucks sake, you have no reason to take political action to suppress someone else's choice if it does not affect you.
You know I have to agree with the maniac on this one. I think children need to be brought up with love. It doesn't matter who raises them, as long as they are loved. Kids do need role models.

[ajk]

Love is important I agree. But understand that how a child is raised also affects how they view things in the world as they grow up.

[starry123nights]

Love is important I agree. But understand that how a child is raised also affects how they view things in the world as they grow up.

and your point is what?

[Ausinus]

and your point is what?

His point is that if they are raised by gay parents then they will have a "wrong" view about homosexuality. :D

[conspiracy]

BUt all gay people doesn't want children. And there's several gay cupples that have children and there's absolutely nothing wrong with them. And who says that marrige requries chldren? I know a few couple that not even likes children, but they are happy and married anyway.


Thats stupid. My relationship does not affect anyone other than the people that I am in the relationship with.

Some families are based on a Mom & Dad and children, some are based on an Aunt and Uncle and children, some are based on Grandparents and children, non-relatives and children, some are based on adoptive parents and children and many do not have children at all.

You tiny & narrow view isn't the only one out there. You view is not respectful of others.

Can't help to read this post and see you say "Aunt and Uncle, Adoptive parents , Grandparents and non-relatives. STILL man and woman relationships, Whether man and woman want children IS NOT THE ISSUE.
The issue is should we grant children to those that can have them naturally.
The issue is if you choose to defy nature should you be aloud children. The simple answer is no. When a man can take semen in his ass and produce a child and evolution makes that so , then this is an issue. When a woman can produce sperm from her clitoris and impregnate another woman, then this is an issue. Until then ,marriage is for man and woman. It isn't a religious pretense, it is something our fore fathers , without GOD has blessed which leads to family life.

The top definition defining marriage:

mar·riage /ˈmærɪdʒ/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mar-ij] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1. the social institution under which a man and woman establish their decision to live as husband and wife by legal commitments, religious ceremonies, etc.

Notice this NOT say any any way , shape or form a religious institution. Ceremonies , yes but not socially.

[conspiracy]

[QUOTE=beelzebub;24596]No wonder you are so fucked up. You are being raised without a mother. Right?

Need I remind you of all the very successful people being raised by non-bisexual parents?/QUOTE]

You wish to remind us that all successful people are raised by NON-Bisexual people??? So what are you saying? Most homosexual people are NOT bisexual or MOST parents are traditional MAN AND WOMAN? Name one successful person claimed to be raised by a a homosexual couple exclusively. Then I will argue more.

[conspiracy]

Perhaps you havent heard of something called the 14th amendment. That is perfectly grounds enough to legalise gay civil unions nationwide.

The next step is to have the term "marriage" struck from the legislation and replaced with "union" - since all marriages and civil unions should be treated equally as legal contracts subjuris.

Marriage shouldnt even be in the legislation since it is a religious institution.

The 14th amendment:

U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment

Fourteenth Amendment - Rights Guaranteed Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship, Due Process and Equal Protection

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section. 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section. 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section. 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section. 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.


Did you bother actually reading this? Let me repeat for your non citizen ass.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Notice where it says the jurisdiction there of? Otherwise where does it say you have a right to GAY marriage? Study a little more please for all the homosexuals sake.

[conspiracy]

Sure you can say that Being raised in a gay family will affect your ability to fit into a straight society, but the opposite is also true. What's the advantage to EITHER way? It's just a matter of choice. If you don't like it, then DON'T DO IT, but for fucks sake, you have no reason to take political action to suppress someone else's choice if it does not affect you.

Theacidal , Really if you were gay, would you really have that beautiful baby pictured on your my space page? Ok one step forward , would you want that baby ,God forbid something happened to you or your wife to be raised by a homosexual couple? I would take a leap and say probably not.

Even if you wish to teach that child marriage for homosexuals is equal rights , would you really be OK with it knowing that your child could NOT continue your family line if she or he decided to love the same sex? ? Would you be Ok with the fact that it would take an adopted child to continue the human race?

I see homosexual marriage as NOT a political decision but as a survival of the human race issue.

[General Septem]

No wonder you are so fucked up. You are being raised without a mother. Right?

My mother died a few years ago, but I had a mother before then. But she was scarcely a mother to me, and treated me like a dog. Not in that she treated me badly, but she never considered me an intelligent individual. She would always speak for me, and correct me in front of others. Never trusted me in the slightest, either. She was a career woman, by the way.

My dad, on the other hand, was contrary to the traditional father role in that he taught me, mostly by example, to be weak. He would rather live safe and secure in a police state than in a riskier but free country. That's his opinion, but I just wish he hadn't raised me to be like that the first fifteen years of my life. He thinks that by having told me how proud he was of me, that it was supposed to raise my confidence. It didn't. I blame both of my parents but mostly my father's influence for who I used to be. For never having had a girlfriend, never having had friends in school, all that shit. He doesn't understand and he never will. I resent him for this; in fact it's all I can do to not outright hate him for it. And that's a damn shame, because I know he just did what he believed was right. He was too afraid he'd screw up, so he was overprotective instead.

So to answer your question, my entire family was and is screwed up. Words cannot describe how screwed up and deficient my childhood was. If anything, I should be one to talk about just how important family is.


Need I remind you of all the very successful people being raised by non-bisexual parents?

I assume that by that you mean they were not raised by a mother and father? I'm not saying you don't make do with what you have to, I mean if a girl gets raped and gets pregnant, there isn't exactly a hell of a lot she can do about the fact that she can't provide a father for her child. You make do. But that doesn't mean it's alright to deliberately bring a child into that kind of environment. It's also different depending on the gender of all involved. A boy with only a father is still more likely to become a man than a boy with only a mother.


You know what he meant but you refuse to acknowledge his request for same sex marriage. Whether you agree with it or not arguing over the legitimacy of the statement is immature.

I was justifying his argument that we should all have equal rights — we already do.


Yes, you pathetic fool but we are talking about 2 consenting, TAXPAYING, adults here.

What makes "consenting", "taxpaying" and "adult" reasons justified but not "of the opposite sex"?

The point, as you are often so good at missing, is that nobody can get married to whomever they wish.

[conspiracy]

No, it isnt equal. Gay people do not have the ability to make a legal contract of union between them; this is especially unfair since the law shouldnt recognize any sexual preference as a deciding factor.

WRONG! Marriages are morally suppose to produce children. This country was built upon the marital law with that natural ability to produce children.

How can law support or recognize an institution that doesn't support that?
We're not talking about love , just let's not say it should be marriage, if you wish to play it that way.

[Ausinus]

The 14th amendment:

U.S. Constitution: Fourteenth Amendment

Fourteenth Amendment - Rights Guaranteed Privileges and Immunities of Citizenship, Due Process and Equal Protection

Section. 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Section. 2. Representatives shall be apportioned among the several States according to their respective numbers, counting the whole number of persons in each State, excluding Indians not taxed. But when the right to vote at any election for the choice of electors for President and Vice President of the United States, Representatives in Congress, the Executive and Judicial officers of a State, or the members of the Legislature thereof, is denied to any of the male inhabitants of such State, being twenty-one years of age, and citizens of the United States, or in any way abridged, except for participation in rebellion, or other crime, the basis of representation therein shall be reduced in the proportion which the number of such male citizens shall bear to the whole number of male citizens twenty-one years of age in such State.

Section. 3. No person shall be a Senator or Representative in Congress, or elector of President and Vice President, or hold any office, civil or military, under the United States, or under any State, who, having previously taken an oath, as a member of Congress, or as an officer of the United States, or as a member of any State legislature, or as an executive or judicial officer of any State, to support the Constitution of the United States, shall have engaged in insurrection or rebellion against the same, or given aid or comfort to the enemies thereof. But Congress may by a vote of two-thirds of each House, remove such disability.

Section. 4. The validity of the public debt of the United States, authorized by law, including debts incurred for payment of pensions and bounties for services in suppressing insurrection or rebellion, shall not be questioned. But neither the United States nor any State shall assume or pay any debt or obligation incurred in aid of insurrection or rebellion against the United States, or any claim for the loss or emancipation of any slave; but all such debts, obligations and claims shall be held illegal and void.

Section. 5. The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article.


Did you bother actually reading this? Let me repeat for your non citizen ass.

All persons born or naturalized in the United States and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

Notice where it says the jurisdiction there of? Otherwise where does it say you have a right to GAY marriage? Study a little more please for all the homosexuals sake.

I already know what the 14th amendment says une idiote.

Note the parts "no state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities....." and "nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction equal protection of the laws"

[Ausinus]

WRONG! Marriages are morally suppose to produce children. This country was built upon the marital law with that natural ability to produce children.

How can law support or recognize an institution that doesn't support that?
We're not talking about love , just let's not say it should be marriage, if you wish to play it that way.

Then you have no objections to this 3 year marriage annullment law then?

Last I remember fertility was not a criterion for marriage. Infertile people can get married, and couples who do get married can choose not to produce children. By your argument legal contracts of union shouldnt be given to infertile couples or couples who do not have the intent of producing. Better yet, we should have the state annul a union/marriage if it doesnt result in a child within a set period.

[ohreally]

May I ask why God would care about petty rules in such a creation he knew was going to be flawed to begin with (since he knows all according to ajk)?

I think some of the Bible and other moral around it through the churches, were merely manufactured "to keep people in line" in the days. I honestly doubt God had interest in specific rules. I mean is God really homophobic? Does he fear gay people so much so that he must ban it even though he created the imperfect thing? Hmm...

Churches and the like are the biggest scam in human history.

[ajk]

Note the parts "no state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities....." and "nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction equal protection of the laws"

Except that again we all have the same rights to marriage from the start.

[Ausinus]

Except that again we all have the same rights to marriage from the start.

Once again; the law should not recognise sexual orientation as valid grounds for denying two consenting adults the ability to form a legal contract of union again. Every citizen, from rich to poor, should be equal in the eyes of the law.

Your argument is absolute bullshit.

[ajk]

No it's not, because we are all born given the same chance. The choices that we make are what make us equal or unequal in accordance with the law.

[Ausinus]

No it's not, because we are all born given the same chance. The choices that we make are what make us equal or unequal in accordance with the law.

You have no idea how a proper system of legislation works. People are equal under the law. This should apply to the creation of legal contracts of union between two consenting adults.

Anyway homosexuality is not a choice - there is scientific evidence that shows brain variations are the cause. Oh wait, you are an expert at ignoring scientific evidence. Nevermind.

[ajk]

Yes it is a choice to some degree at least. Maybe it is a disorder somewhat, but either way no one or no thing is going to force you to be gay. The person makes up their mind themselves as to whether they are gay or not. That is something that no piece of science can disprove.

[Ausinus]

Yes it is a choice to some degree at least. Maybe it is a disorder somewhat, but either way no one or no thing is going to force you to be gay. The person makes up their mind themselves as to whether they are gay or not. That is something that no piece of science can disprove.

No, rather they accept or deny it. And possibly the only reason that they would deny it is because they are afraid to come out because of people like you spouting "homosexuality is evil" all the time.

Anyway why should we allow straight marriages if it is "only a choice"?

[ajk]

No, rather they accept or deny it. And possibly the only reason that they would deny it is because they are afraid to come out because of people like you spouting "homosexuality is evil" all the time.


Not neccessarily, there are people who legitimately struggle with same sex attraction you know. Either way they still decide one way or the other which way they go.

[Ausinus]

Not neccessarily, there are people who legitimately struggle with same sex attraction you know. Either way they still decide one way or the other which way they go.

So then straight marriages shouldnt be recognised either. "Its only a choice".

[ajk]

Except that without it there would be no civilization. Straight marriages and the kids that come from them, are the ones that make the world go round.

[Ausinus]

Except that without it there would be no civilization. Straight marriages and the kids that come from them, are the ones that make the world go round.

No, marriage and civilisation are not inseperable things.

Kids dont come from marriages exclusively. Kids come from a male impregnating a female. Marriage is just a superfluous addition.

[ajk]

Still though marriage and family shapes our world to some extent at least.

[Ausinus]

Still though marriage and family shapes our world to some extent at least.

I repeat; you can have family and children without marriage. This is the way is originally was before the superfluous concept of a religious union was invented. Even then monogamy was rarely practiced.

Also allowing gay adoption would be beneficial as it would allow for more orphans and children that would otherwise be placed in institutions or foster care to recieve love and care from two loving adults.

[theicidal maniac]

Still though marriage and family shapes our world to some extent at least.

Lack of marriage and family can also shape our world, in fact there are many cultures which do not have the "marriage" concept and they have managed to breed quite successfully.

Marriage is only important in a society of marriage. If we stop practicing it, a new norm will take it's place and life will go on.


No it's not, because we are all born given the same chance. The choices that we make are what make us equal or unequal in accordance with the law.

That is absolutely untrue. I will not raise my child to be a christian or a jew or any kind of superstitious zealot, so she will not have the same chance to become religious as a child RAISED in a religious home would have. There are tribes in nearly every continent who have not encountered the Bible, and so they have no chance to hear about your god (lucky them).

A child born in a dumpster to a homeless couple does not have the same chance for success as Bill Gates' children. A child born deaf and blind does not have the same chance for human interaction as the rest of us. There is no universal equality, AJK, it just doesn't exist.

[ajk]

That is absolutely untrue. I will not raise my child to be a christian or a jew or any kind of superstitious zealot, so she will not have the same chance to become religious as a child RAISED in a religious home would have.

You may try and raise your child that way, but in the end she still has to decide herself what is right for her. You may not want to hear that, but that's just a fact.

[theicidal maniac]

You may try and raise your child that way, but in the end she still has to decide herself what is right for her. You may not want to hear that, but that's just a fact.

Uh yeah I know it's a fact. She WILL have to decide what she believes is right. What is NOT a fact is that she will choose to believe that YOU are right.

[ajk]

You can't say that for sure, you and I both know that the future can't be predicted like that.

[theicidal maniac]

You can't say that for sure, you and I both know that the future can't be predicted like that.

That's why it's NOT A FACT, dimwit. LOL, JESUS CHRIST!!! are you for real??

[ajk]

I get that but the way you said it, it seems to me you know for sure that she won't choose my side over yours. Or at least you think you do.

[hitekredneck]

You can't say that for sure, you and I both know that the future can't be predicted like that.

ummm...aj, haven't you said before that the book of revelations does exactly that?

[ajk]

Well now obviously there are exceptions to this. But for the most part unless you have the gift of prophecy (which not too many have) you really can't predict what the future will hold for someone or something.

[hitekredneck]

Well now obviously there are exceptions to this. But for the most part unless you have the gift of prophecy (which not too many have) you really can't predict what the future will hold for someone or something.

i don't really believe in prophecy...but if it does exist, i don't thinkit would be a gift, more like a curse

[ajk]

To some degree maybe, but think about it this way: If you know something bad is going to happen to someone you know, because you have that knowledge you can prevent it from happening.

[something]

Well now obviously there are exceptions to this. But for the most part unless you have the gift of prophecy (which not too many have) you really can't predict what the future will hold for someone or something.

You wont get raised as an atheist your entire life and then suddenly become a religus freak that not even belive that the earth is a globe.

[ajk]

In the past that may have been true, but in this day and age even someone who may have been raised as an atheist can still get information on religion very very easily.

[something]

To some degree maybe, but think about it this way: If you know something bad is going to happen to someone you know, because you have that knowledge you can prevent it from happening.

You know, many people (and me) think that it is impossible to do anything but what the destiny says. There's many stories about people that see something horrrible in the future and when trying to avoid it, they just causes it.

[hitekredneck]

In the past that may have been true, but in this day and age even someone who may have been raised as an atheist can still get information on religion very very easily.

true...but what with most religions not "growing" with the times, i.e. women preachers, homosexuals, birth control, and all of the scandals, i don't find it surprising that more people are becoming atheistic...is that a word?:confused:

[something]

In the past that may have been true, but in this day and age even someone who may have been raised as an atheist can still get information on religion very very easily.

There's one thing if you are a bit of an atheist and then found religion as easier to belive, but getting raised as nothing but an atheist will deffernitly prevent you from becoming religus.

[hitekredneck]

To some degree maybe, but think about it this way: If you know something bad is going to happen to someone you know, because you have that knowledge you can prevent it from happening.

now we get into destiny...even if you know something's gonna happen, can you truly stop it?...i, for one, wouldn'twant to know in advance about such things as my own death, the death of friends and/or family or disasters of any type

[something]

true...but what with most religions not "growing" with the times, i.e. women preachers, homosexuals, birth control, and all of the scandals, i don't find it surprising that more people are becoming atheistic...is that a word?:confused:

Unfortunaly, the number of atheists has decreased the latest time. :eek:

[ajk]

Well there are problems in the church without a doubt, with what has went on over the last 30 to 40 years. But people need to understand that just because some people act a certain way, it isn't a reflection on the church as a whole. There are plenty of good priests, preachers, etc out there, it's just not heard about as much.

[hitekredneck]

Unfortunaly, the number of atheists has decreased the latest time. :eek:

eehhh...that happens in cycles like everything else...

[something]

eehhh...that happens in cycles like everything else...

Exactly. That must be it... :(

[ajk]

There's one thing if you are a bit of an atheist and then found religion as easier to belive, but getting raised as nothing but an atheist will deffernitly prevent you from becoming religus.

Yes but again with how accessible material is online and elsewhere, you can't guarantee that a person will stay atheist, particularly as they grow older and independent. They will find out about religion somehow through someone. After that they might accept it, or they might not. Being raised atheist may effect how they view it to some extent, but it doesn't mean they won't change their mind neccessarily. You just don't know.

[something]

Yes but again with how accessible material is online and elsewhere, you can't guarantee that a person will stay atheist, particularly as they grow older and independent. They will find out about religion somehow through someone. After that they might accept it, or they might not. Being raised atheist may effect how they view it, but then again it might not. You just don't know.

Of course, you will never be able to guarante anything to 100%, but there's like much accesable materials that may make people become atheists instead of opposite.

[ajk]

now we get into destiny...even if you know something's gonna happen, can you truly stop it?...i, for one, wouldn'twant to know in advance about such things as my own death, the death of friends and/or family or disasters of any type

Well I suppose in the case of something like death if it's going to happen it's going to happen. But knowing that you can at the very least warn them of what will happen to them, so that they will be ready spiritually for it (if they are religious). If not you could pray they would get that way before it was too late. So in that sense knowing the future can be sort of beneficial I suppose.

[ajk]

Of course, you will never be able to guarante anything to 100%, but there's like much accesable materials that may make people become atheists instead of opposite.

That's very true, it can go both ways.

[something]

Well I suppose in the case of something like death if it's going to happen it's going to happen. But knowing that you can at the very least warn them of what will happen to them, so that they will be ready spiritually for it (if they are religious). If not you could pray they would get that way before it was too late. So in that sense knowing the future can be sort of beneficial I suppose.

And if you are an atheist, you would not belive them since looking in to the future is impossible.

[ajk]

What about the idea of deja vu? Isn't that to some degree being able to see future events before they happen?

[something]

What about the idea of deja vu? Isn't that to some degree being able to see future events before they happen?

Now, it's thinking that you have done something before. Like you see a new show on television and think that you have seen it before, but it's just an illusion.

[General Septem]

What about the idea of deja vu? Isn't that to some degree being able to see future events before they happen?

I think deja vu is more of a case of your brain's recognition center and your memory conflicting. You can't really predict what is about to happen; you just feel like it's happened before. I'm an expert on deja vu since it happens to me all the time.

I think prophecy is more having wisdom regarding events happening in the world and knowing that people's actions are going to get them into trouble, than fortune telling.

[hitekredneck]

I think deja vu is more of a case of your brain's recognition center and your memory conflicting. You can't really predict what is about to happen; you just feel like it's happened before. I'm an expert on deja vu since it happens to me all the time.

I think prophecy is more having wisdom regarding events happening in the world and knowing that people's actions are going to get them into trouble, than fortune telling.

ok, gen...what's deja voodoo? :D

[something]

ok, gen...what's deja voodoo? :D

Knowing that you're turninig in to a Zombie? :D

[Ausinus]

In the past that may have been true, but in this day and age even someone who may have been raised as an atheist can still get information on religion very very easily.

Yeah, because in the past if you admitted to being an atheist you would have been executed.

[Ausinus]

Well there are problems in the church without a doubt, with what has went on over the last 30 to 40 years. But people need to understand that just because some people act a certain way, it isn't a reflection on the church as a whole. There are plenty of good priests, preachers, etc out there, it's just not heard about as much.

Yes, because its the fanatics that get the highest up in the Church.

[ajk]

Yeah, because in the past if you admitted to being an atheist you would have been executed.

That's not my point here. The past has nothing to do with it. My point is regardless of how a person was raised be it atheist or christian information is so much more easily accessible on each subject now compared to say 10 years ago. It's almost impossible to not at the very least have an idea as to the opposite end of your belief system as it were.

[Ausinus]

That's not my point here. The past has nothing to do with it. My point is regardless of how a person was raised be it atheist or christian information is so much more easily accessible on each subject now compared to say 10 years ago. It's almost impossible to not at the very least have an idea as to the opposite end of your belief system as it were.

Ah, ok. I agree, information is much more accesibly nowdays - however, that is no guarantee that they will necessarily convert. ^_^

[beelzebub]

My mother died a few years ago, but I had a mother before then. But she was scarcely a mother to me, and treated me like a dog. Not in that she treated me badly, but she never considered me an intelligent individual. She would always speak for me, and correct me in front of others. Never trusted me in the slightest, either. She was a career woman, by the way.
My dad, on the other hand, was contrary to the traditional father role in that he taught me, mostly by example, to be weak. He would rather live safe and secure in a police state than in a riskier but free country. That's his opinion, but I just wish he hadn't raised me to be like that the first fifteen years of my life. He thinks that by having told me how proud he was of me, that it was supposed to raise my confidence. It didn't. I blame both of my parents but mostly my father's influence for who I used to be. For never having had a girlfriend, never having had friends in school, all that shit. He doesn't understand and he never will. I resent him for this; in fact it's all I can do to not outright hate him for it. And that's a damn shame, because I know he just did what he believed was right. He was too afraid he'd screw up, so he was overprotective instead.
So to answer your question, my entire family was and is screwed up. Words cannot describe how screwed up and deficient my childhood was. If anything, I should be one to talk about just how important family is.

So... after all this you still feel that the most important criteria for the successful rearing of a child is that a mother and father be the parents.

What you have written shows me that the most important thing is to love your child and to set them up for success in the world. I can do this for may child irrespective of gender.


I assume that by that you mean they were not raised by a mother and father? I'm not saying you don't make do with what you have to, I mean if a girl gets raped and gets pregnant, there isn't exactly a hell of a lot she can do about the fact that she can't provide a father for her child. You make do.

There are many people in this world raising children by themselves for a multitude of reasons. They are able to do so and bring productive and well-balanced members into society. There are horrible excuse for humans brought into this world by a Mother and Father. Therefore being raised by parents of two different genders is not important. Once again ... it is the love and discipline that you give to the child.


But that doesn't mean it's alright to deliberately bring a child into that kind of environment. It's also different depending on the gender of all involved. A boy with only a father is still more likely to become a man than a boy with only a mother.

Foolish. I assume then that your father has turned you into a weak little man: "My dad, on the other hand, was contrary to the traditional father role in that he taught me, mostly by example, to be weak. He would rather live safe and secure in a police state than in a riskier but free country."


I was justifying his argument that we should all have equal rights — we already do.

No we dont have equal rights. I do not get the benefits that srt8 people get because they refuse to accept that I have a relationship. That is EXACTLY what your point is and I resent it. It is like racists in the early 1900's saying that everyone has equal rights (because black people are not white).


What makes "consenting", "taxpaying" and "adult" reasons justified but not "of the opposite sex"?

What makes "consenting", "taxpaying" and "adult" reasons justified but not "non-cathloic" -or- "white only" .....

In other words it is discriminatory.


The point, as you are often so good at missing, is that nobody can get married to whomever they wish.

Any man can marry any woman if they want to. There were laws that prohibited blacks from marrying whites. They were struck down because they are WRONG. Just like what is happening to people like me IS WRONG. As I have said before... I don't care if the word is marriage or civil union. A rose by any other name... and so on.

[ajk]

No we dont have equal rights. I do not get the benefits that srt8 people get because they refuse to accept that I have a relationship. That is EXACTLY what your point is and I resent it. It is like racists in the early 1900's saying that everyone has equal rights (because black people are not white).


Once again yes you do. When we are first born into the world, we have the same rights to marry someone else down the line. Every last one of us can do that by the law. It's when you deviate from the law that you become unequal.

[Ausinus]

Once again yes you do. When we are first born into the world, we have the same rights to marry someone else down the line. Every last one of us can do that by the law. It's when you deviate from the law that you become unequal.

I dont know what century you live in, but last I checked the anti-buggery laws were struck down a long time ago so homosexuality IS NOT illegal. Homosexual relationships should therefore be given the right to form a legal union by extension.

[beelzebub]

Once again yes you do. When we are first born into the world, we have the same rights to marry someone else down the line. Every last one of us can do that by the law. It's when you deviate from the law that you become unequal.

Laws are made by people. They are written on paper, not carved into stone. Laws can be changed and when it is we will be equal.

I believe that I was born gay, just like you were born stupid.

[Ausinus]

Laws are made my people. They are written on paper, not carved into stone. Laws can be changed and when it is we will be equal.

Oh no buzzman, the only law we should follow is god's laws despite them being both vague and discriminatory because that is the only right law and that will always be solid fact :D

[ajk]

I believe that I was born gay, just like you were born stupid.

You are not born gay. You may be more attracted to the same sex then someone else might be but it doesn't mean you were born that way. If you were that would defeat the purpose of having free will at all. You at one point in your life had a decision to make. You could have acted on the same sex attraction, or you could have decided not to act on it. Obviously you acted on it, so therefore you made yourself gay. No one or no thing forced you to be that way, you chose to be that way.